As know1 astutely pointed out, there's a difference between health care and health insurance. Many people seem to confuse the two and think that people calling for universal healthcare are calling for the government to run healthcare. In reality, they're just calling for the government to fund a system of health insurance under which everyone will be covered. So they wouldn't be running healthcare at all - they'd just be paying for it.
So I kind of misspoke in my post, then. I meant that I don't trust the government to run healthcare OR health insurance any better than the private sector.
We have to get away from the concept of ANY other entity paying for our healthcare other than ourselves (unless it's some sort of catastrophic policy).
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Honestly, the NHS is as untouchable as the public sector education system...No politician has succeeded in quashing the public backlash of suggestions to privatize our healthcare system... even Maggie couldn't do it!
It is the same thing in Canada. No politican would dare to mess too much with the health care system since it would mean pretty close to instant political death. On top of that a government funded health care system helps to keep government spending in check when it comes to other areas. I mean it gets more difficult for the government to spend money on other crap when they know the opposition and the media will hammer them because the millions they spent on what ever could pay for x amount of hospital beds or x amount of MRI machines.
i dunno, maybe take some of the $700 billion from the pentagon, and stop some of the $4 billion in aid to israel, take some od the billions from the war on drugs, and there is your start.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
i dunno, maybe take some of the $700 billion from the pentagon, and stop some of the $4 billion in aid to israel, take some od the billions from the war on drugs, and there is your start.
i dunno, maybe take some of the $700 billion from the pentagon, and stop some of the $4 billion in aid to israel, take some od the billions from the war on drugs, and there is your start.
Hell just reorganize he health care funding they already have. My understanding is that in the US the government spends more per person on health care than in Canada. So instead of funding county hospitals where people go to the ER as a last resort when they are really sick (and it is really expensive for a doctor to see them) allocate some more of that money to family doctors so that when people are a little bit sick, or not sick at all they can go to their family doctor (which is cheaper) and then maybe they won't end up in the ER.
Not to mention the fact that a healthy workforce where people have easy access to doctors to keep them from getting sick is good for the economy in general.
Ah...the bottom line will take care of itself huh? I know that I expect a paycheck from work, I must be pretty greedy.
yes the bottom line will take care of itself. if we see more patients we will make more money. if we see less we will make less money. they make enough that they can provide care to the less fortunate without missing that money.
they are both christian doctors, and they follow christ's teachings of taking care of the least among us, because what they do unto them, they do unto christ...
perhaps more people should take the faith that they claim to have and insert that into their business dealings...the docs i work with do it and they are just fine financially.
I totally agree with you on this. My place of employment began with a young man that wanted to do business in a different way. He cared about his employees and wanted them to have a share in the profits and genuinely wanted his employees taken care of in return for a honest day of hard work. He was a Christian an acted as one. He gave benefits that were unheard of in this business and you could work your way up to a hefty salary with only a high school education. Managers retire million heirs, the little guy retires with enough stock to retire on (stock is given to them).
Now is a different story. The owner passed away and the kids took over. They are doing what you said…hire two 20hr workers instead of giving full time to people so that they can make a living. Promising people that have worked there for years full time but they never give it.
Greed is killing this country!
This recently happened to me. I have very good health insurance. Woke up with excruciating chest pain. Went to the hospital emergency room was taken immediately. They did test, chest x-rays, admitted me in the hospital, did more test. The next day they said they check my heart it was fine, my chest x-ray came out fine. I was very happy about this, and said so. Then I say what is next, because I just want to get rid of this pain. They say, well the hospitals are not as they used to be were they run test to find out what is wrong with you. They just stabilize you and have you follow up with you primary doctor. Stabilize means giving me pain pills and sending me out the door. Therefore, I try to follow up with a gastro doc. However, they are on vacation until after the holidays.
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
Also how about people don't run to the doctor for every sniffle and take
zillions of unnecessary drugs ... how about the new one for if you work
night shift :? unbelievable ridiculous side effects
our fore fathers would be chuckling at the weak shits this world has grown into :lol
that is cool about the guy that started your company. my mom works for a company that is similar to what you described. the owner is in his 80s and is still working. he knows all of his employees and he hates having to let people go or eliminate their positions, which he has had to do a few times the last few years. my mom said he would not have to lay people off if he did not give so many millions to charity each year. but the guy is a christian businessman and philanthropist. he walks the walk. my mom says she is worried what will happen to the company and it's employees when he passes away. apparently the kids are like the kids you describe in the second scenario. which is a shame really.
and you are also right about the hospital. their mentality now is "treat 'em and street 'em"...get them in, take care of them, run the tests, and send them back to the primary doc to manage the treatment from there. hospitals are triage centers if you are an outpatient. if you are an inpatient that is when they do the treatment. they send you back to your primary once the tests are run so that your primary doctor can refer you to whatever treatment or whatever specialist you need to see. many insurances will not cover specialty referrals unless you are referred by your primary care physician.
and i agree that greed is what is ruining this country. last i checked greed was one of the 7 deadlies...
good luck, and i hope that everything gets taken care of soon.
I totally agree with you on this. My place of employment began with a young man that wanted to do business in a different way. He cared about his employees and wanted them to have a share in the profits and genuinely wanted his employees taken care of in return for a honest day of hard work. He was a Christian an acted as one. He gave benefits that were unheard of in this business and you could work your way up to a hefty salary with only a high school education. Managers retire million heirs, the little guy retires with enough stock to retire on (stock is given to them).
Now is a different story. The owner passed away and the kids took over. They are doing what you said…hire two 20hr workers instead of giving full time to people so that they can make a living. Promising people that have worked there for years full time but they never give it.
Greed is killing this country!
This recently happened to me. I have very good health insurance. Woke up with excruciating chest pain. Went to the hospital emergency room was taken immediately. They did test, chest x-rays, admitted me in the hospital, did more test. The next day they said they check my heart it was fine, my chest x-ray came out fine. I was very happy about this, and said so. Then I say what is next, because I just want to get rid of this pain. They say, well the hospitals are not as they used to be were they run test to find out what is wrong with you. They just stabilize you and have you follow up with you primary doctor. Stabilize means giving me pain pills and sending me out the door. Therefore, I try to follow up with a gastro doc. However, they are on vacation until after the holidays.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
As know1 astutely pointed out, there's a difference between health care and health insurance. Many people seem to confuse the two and think that people calling for universal healthcare are calling for the government to run healthcare. In reality, they're just calling for the government to fund a system of health insurance under which everyone will be covered. So they wouldn't be running healthcare at all - they'd just be paying for it.
Correction: WEwill be paying for it. We will be supporting a system that suffers high prices due to corruption and nothing is being done to help lower prices. And since WE will be forced to pay it (or go to jail and share a cell w/ Wesley Snipes), what incentive does the current system have to lower prices?
Or raise prices? :think:
Once again, the root cause is not being addressed.
I support universal health care. I don't support our current system that drives small business into the ground and doesn't allow people to have healthcare because it's so expensive.
As know1 astutely pointed out, there's a difference between health care and health insurance. Many people seem to confuse the two and think that people calling for universal healthcare are calling for the government to run healthcare. In reality, they're just calling for the government to fund a system of health insurance under which everyone will be covered. So they wouldn't be running healthcare at all - they'd just be paying for it.
Correction: WEwill be paying for it. We will be supporting a system that suffers high prices due to corruption and nothing is being done to help lower prices. And since WE will be forced to pay it (or go to jail and share a cell w/ Wesley Snipes), what incentive does the current system have to lower prices?
Or raise prices? :think:
Once again, the root cause is not being addressed.
I support universal health care. I don't support our current system that drives small business into the ground and doesn't allow people to have healthcare because it's so expensive.
Funny, know1 replied to my post by calling it a system where another entity pays for it instead of us. But we all know what we're talking about & know we're talking about the same thing.
I'm not sure what root cause you're referring to that's not being addressed, but I disagree with your line of thinking here - or at least it's not making sense to me. You say you don't support an overhaul of the system because you don't support the current system. :? You seem to be interchanging current & proposed new systems as if they're the same thing.
Studies have shown time & again that the problem with the current system is high administrative costs set up by private, for-profit health insurance companies - not government corruption (except to extent that they refuse to change the system). The government-run health insurance systems we already have have much lower administrative costs. And when we all recognize that we're paying for it as the health insurance that covers all of us, we'll have plenty of incentive to keep costs low and service high. We'll all be in it together. And we sure as hell have more power over our elected politicians than over greedy private insurance CEOs with the law on their side saying they have the right to fuck us over for their own profit. I'm not sure who it is you think we'll be better able to keep in line if not the private or public sectors. Who else is left? (know1 would likely say the individual, but that answer's not applicable here since we're talking about running a system of universal care and an every-man-for-himself approach would certainly not allow for universal care.)
I'm also curious: Do you think the politicians in all the other developed countries are so much less corrupt and more altruistic than ours that their systems work while ours would be sure to fail?
It is difficult to discuss a subject as convoluted as this with people who lack the capacity to understand the financial consequences of such a system, and who that burden will fall on.
Yes, yes it is. And that's why you need to get your facts straight before you start acting like you know what you're talking about.
1. There are NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, more healthcare services for undocumented immigrants than for U.S. citizens.
2. Undocumented immigrants DO pay taxes and they DO pay into the healthcare system - they're just rarely allowed to use it. So one could argue that your burden falls on them more than theirs falls on you.
3. The children of undocumented immigrants, if they were born in this country, are U.S. citizens and have just as much right to publicly-funded healthcare as your children do.
I haven't yet read the thread past this post, but up to now you have failed to list one single healthcare program for undocumented immigrants. A few do exist, but your inability to name even ONE publicly-funded healthcare program for undocumented immigrants sure as hell doesn't back up your outrageous claim that they actually receive MORE healthcare benefits than the rest of us.
And why did you have to change this thread into one about immigration? Maybe you should start a new thread about immigration if it's so important to you.
1. You are right. There ARE more healthcare services for Americans than illegals. But that's not the point. Focus man. There are more FREE services for illegals than Americans. And by FREE, I mean FREE to illegals, but PAID FOR by taxpaying Americans, who also have to buy their own. Big Difference. And under the new law, just how will the Gov't compel an undocumented illegal to purchase coverage? They can't, and won't. I'm still paying for it.
2. HOW? Please show proof. Because they do not. Are you aware that they don't even have to pay taxes if they are here on a Documented work visa? You kinda missed that one didn't you? And just how do illegals "rarely get to use it"? You're saying that an undocumented alien is paying documented taxes but then goes to an emergency room after a car accident, and is turned away... to die in the street, right? Because Republicans are mean, right? This is the kind of bold faced lie that proponents of the unconstitutional healthcare law constantly perpetuate. It is a LIE.
3. Yes genius, anchor-babies are citizens. They have just as much right to publicly-funded HC as my kids do. IN THEORY. In PRACTICE, however, my kid doesn't qualify. Why? Because my kid's parents are American citizens. Being white and employed doesn't help open the doors either, btw.. In short, because the taxes I pay cannot cover the cost of my kids AND an illegal's kids, then the PUBLICY FUNDED services go to the anchor baby, while the American parents pay for it.
In closing, this HC issue is one of the biggest of our time, HC for the millions of aliens in this country is under that umbrella, so this is on topic. Excluding it would be like discussing the causes of the Civil War but leaving out the question of westward expansion of slavery. Duh.
It is difficult to discuss a subject as convoluted as this with people who lack the capacity to understand the financial consequences of such a system, and who that burden will fall on.
Yes, yes it is. And that's why you need to get your facts straight before you start acting like you know what you're talking about.
1. There are NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, more healthcare services for undocumented immigrants than for U.S. citizens.
2. Undocumented immigrants DO pay taxes and they DO pay into the healthcare system - they're just rarely allowed to use it. So one could argue that your burden falls on them more than theirs falls on you.
3. The children of undocumented immigrants, if they were born in this country, are U.S. citizens and have just as much right to publicly-funded healthcare as your children do.
I haven't yet read the thread past this post, but up to now you have failed to list one single healthcare program for undocumented immigrants. A few do exist, but your inability to name even ONE publicly-funded healthcare program for undocumented immigrants sure as hell doesn't back up your outrageous claim that they actually receive MORE healthcare benefits than the rest of us.
And why did you have to change this thread into one about immigration? Maybe you should start a new thread about immigration if it's so important to you.
1. You are right. There ARE more healthcare services for Americans than illegals. But that's not the point. Focus man. There are more FREE services for illegals than Americans. And by FREE, I mean FREE to illegals, but PAID FOR by taxpaying Americans, who also have to buy their own. Big Difference. And under the new law, just how will the Gov't compel an undocumented illegal to purchase coverage? They can't, and won't. I'm still paying for it.
2. HOW? Please show proof. Because they do not. Are you aware that they don't even have to pay taxes if they are here on a Documented work visa? You kinda missed that one didn't you? And just how do illegals "rarely get to use it"? You're saying that an undocumented alien is paying documented taxes but then goes to an emergency room after a car accident, and is turned away... to die in the street, right? Because Republicans are mean, right? This is the kind of bold faced lie that proponents of the unconstitutional healthcare law constantly perpetuate. It is a LIE.
3. Yes genius, anchor-babies are citizens. They have just as much right to publicly-funded HC as my kids do. IN THEORY. In PRACTICE, however, my kid doesn't qualify. Why? Because my kid's parents are American citizens. Being white and employed doesn't help open the doors either, btw.. In short, because the taxes I pay cannot cover the cost of my kids AND an illegal's kids, then the PUBLICY FUNDED services go to the anchor baby, while the American parents pay for it.
In closing, this HC issue is one of the biggest of our time, HC for the millions of aliens in this country is under that umbrella, so this is on topic. Excluding it would be like discussing the causes of the Civil War but leaving out the question of westward expansion of slavery. Duh.
1. There are NOT more free healthcare services for undocumented immigrants than American citizens. As a matter of fact, you haven't even named ONE free service for undocumented immigrants. Please provide a comprehensive list of these services of which you speak.
2. Undocumented immigrants pay sales tax, often pay payroll taxes, etc. If you want to have a conversation about immigrants' tax rates, start a thread about it. Re: how they rarely get to use the services they help pay for, please refer to #1.
3. Glad we agree that your single piece of anecdotal "evidence" about a flyer your wife distributed is not relevant to you claim about undocumented immigrants since it refers to American citizens.
"Statement of benefits does not guarantee payment of services."
This is what Americans who DO have "good" health insurance have to deal with. You can call your insurance company before a procedure and they can tell you it's covered, but that doesn't mean anything. You can have your procedure and then the insurance can still refuse to cover it. All they have to say is, "Just because we told you it's covered doesn't mean it is." In fact, they say this right up front with the disclaimer above.
I just called a patient's insurance company to find out if her procedure is covered and was told it's not. Then I called back again and asked the exact same question and was told that it IS covered. What is the patient supposed to believe? What would she believe had I spoken to the second insurance lady first? I'm inclined to believe that it is covered, because 99 times out of 100, this insurance company tells me they cover this procedure. But what if it's not? If the patient pays cash up front, it will cost her about $400. But if we bill the insurance company and they deny the claim, it will cost her thousands of dollars. We're not even able to know exactly how much it will cost. But, really, she shouldn't pay anything because her insurance should cover it. So why would she pay $400 (that she doesn't have laying around anyway) for something she's been told by her insurance company that they cover? Oh, right, because you never really know what they'll cover, because statements of benefits do not guarantee payment of services. It's crazy!
1. You are right. There ARE more healthcare services for Americans than illegals. But that's not the point. Focus man. There are more FREE services for illegals than Americans. And by FREE, I mean FREE to illegals, but PAID FOR by taxpaying Americans, who also have to buy their own. Big Difference. And under the new law, just how will the Gov't compel an undocumented illegal to purchase coverage? They can't, and won't. I'm still paying for it.
2. HOW? Please show proof. Because they do not. Are you aware that they don't even have to pay taxes if they are here on a Documented work visa? You kinda missed that one didn't you? And just how do illegals "rarely get to use it"? You're saying that an undocumented alien is paying documented taxes but then goes to an emergency room after a car accident, and is turned away... to die in the street, right? Because Republicans are mean, right? This is the kind of bold faced lie that proponents of the unconstitutional healthcare law constantly perpetuate. It is a LIE.
3. Yes genius, anchor-babies are citizens. They have just as much right to publicly-funded HC as my kids do. IN THEORY. In PRACTICE, however, my kid doesn't qualify. Why? Because my kid's parents are American citizens. Being white and employed doesn't help open the doors either, btw.. In short, because the taxes I pay cannot cover the cost of my kids AND an illegal's kids, then the PUBLICY FUNDED services go to the anchor baby, while the American parents pay for it.
In closing, this HC issue is one of the biggest of our time, HC for the millions of aliens in this country is under that umbrella, so this is on topic. Excluding it would be like discussing the causes of the Civil War but leaving out the question of westward expansion of slavery. Duh.
Your kid doesn't qualify for Medicaid because of household income, not because your kid's parents are citizens. Are you upset that your kids don't qualify for Medicaid? Or just resentful that taxpayer money funds Medicaid for children of illegals? Do you think the kids shouldn't get Medicaid?
This is just something you made up: "There are more FREE services for illegals than Americans."
Are you upset that illegals get emergency room services? Should that be denied to them?
I hope you can respond to these questions rather than ignore them or act like you don't understand what I wrote.
I'm not sure what root cause you're referring to that's not being addressed, but I disagree with your line of thinking here - or at least it's not making sense to me. You say you don't support an overhaul of the system because you don't support the current system. :? You seem to be interchanging current & proposed new systems as if they're the same thing.
I don't believe the system is being overhauled. It's being expanded. I concede you know more on this subject as it falls within your line of work, so I imagine you know certain areas that need fixed. And I'm sure there are quite a few problems you are not aware of that need to be fixed. Why are the politicians not addressing what needs to be fixed to help lower costs?
I'm not sure what root cause you're referring to that's not being addressed, but I disagree with your line of thinking here - or at least it's not making sense to me. You say you don't support an overhaul of the system because you don't support the current system. :? You seem to be interchanging current & proposed new systems as if they're the same thing.
I don't believe the system is being overhauled. It's being expanded. I concede you know more on this subject as it falls within your line of work, so I imagine you know certain areas that need fixed. And I'm sure there are quite a few problems you are not aware of that need to be fixed. Why are the politicians not addressing what needs to be fixed to help lower costs?
I agree that it's not being overhauled, so I guess we've been talking about different things. I'm saying it does need to be overhauled because the current system sucks. I'd like to see them change to a single-payer system that would cover everyone, but that's not even on the table in Washington.
If you're talking about the Affordable Care Act, I think it does address some things that need to be fixed, but it's FAR from being what we need. I'd say politicians are not addressing what we really need because corporate interests currently control our politics and our media. So big insurance and pharm companies have powerful lobbyists in Washington that push their agenda through, and the media has tricked the public into believing all sorts of blatant myths about universal healthcare. So even the politicians who aren't in the corporate pockets have a hard time getting past a mass uninformed electorate when saying they support universal healthcare brings cries of socialism.
I'm not sure what root cause you're referring to that's not being addressed, but I disagree with your line of thinking here - or at least it's not making sense to me. You say you don't support an overhaul of the system because you don't support the current system. :? You seem to be interchanging current & proposed new systems as if they're the same thing.
I don't believe the system is being overhauled. It's being expanded. I concede you know more on this subject as it falls within your line of work, so I imagine you know certain areas that need fixed. And I'm sure there are quite a few problems you are not aware of that need to be fixed. Why are the politicians not addressing what needs to be fixed to help lower costs?
I agree that it's not being overhauled, so I guess we've been talking about different things. I'm saying it does need to be overhauled because the current system sucks. I'd like to see them change to a single-payer system that would cover everyone, but that's not even on the table in Washington.
If you're talking about the Affordable Care Act, I think it does address some things that need to be fixed, but it's FAR from being what we need. I'd say politicians are not addressing what we really need because corporate interests currently control our politics and our media. So big insurance and pharm companies have powerful lobbyists in Washington that push their agenda through, and the media has tricked the public into believing all sorts of blatant myths about universal healthcare. So even the politicians who aren't in the corporate pockets have a hard time getting passed a mass uninformed electorate when saying they support universal healthcare brings cries of socialism.
Bingo.
We have one shot at making a change and this isn't really a change. If anything, I feel healthcare prices will increase quite a bit once a taxpayer-funded I.V . is tapped.
Touching on your points about lobby influence, I feel the root cause of a lot of our problems lie in career politicians, 2-year congressional terms, and no term limits. I believe a 4-6 year, one term limit for both senators and congressmen would go a very long way in breaking this cycle of lobby influence. I don't understand why the Tea Party and OWS don't focus on this aspect. Instead of attacking a diseased tree at the roots, we are attacking individual limbs.
On a side note, I'm very happy that Barry Bonds was not sent to prison for being convicted of lying to the biggest group of liars in the world.
1. There are NOT more free healthcare services for undocumented immigrants than American citizens. As a matter of fact, you haven't even named ONE free service for undocumented immigrants. Please provide a comprehensive list of these services of which you speak.
2. Undocumented immigrants pay sales tax, often pay payroll taxes, etc. If you want to have a conversation about immigrants' tax rates, start a thread about it. Re: how they rarely get to use the services they help pay for, please refer to #1.
3. Glad we agree that your single piece of anecdotal "evidence" about a flyer your wife distributed is not relevant to you claim about undocumented immigrants since it refers to American citizens.
1. Medicaid.
2.OH... they pay SALES tax. A fucking CITY tax. So when the get their assistance check/ free money/ (my money), they have to pay a CITY SALES TAX if they want to buy a hamburger or something. And you equate that to paying Fed, State, County, City, MediC/MedicA/ Social Security, etc? And they "OFTEN" pay payroll tax? Like how "often"? Like when?! And who? Can you give one example of an undocumented illegal alien paying documented payroll taxes? I doubt it, b/c you have no fucking idea. And that part about work visa and STILL no taxes? Didn't hear you respond to that one- because you had no fucking idea.
3. See number 1.
You attack 1 of 2 stories I told of real people in the med field and how Medicaid costs for illegals are negatively affecting their businesses, and making it hard to treat such people, and you painted it as insignifigant and "anecdotal".
Right before posting some unreadable droning about your day job phoning insurance companies- but I guess for your anecdotes, we should all gather round with open ears, hearts, and minds?
1. You are right. There ARE more healthcare services for Americans than illegals. But that's not the point. Focus man. There are more FREE services for illegals than Americans. And by FREE, I mean FREE to illegals, but PAID FOR by taxpaying Americans, who also have to buy their own. Big Difference. And under the new law, just how will the Gov't compel an undocumented illegal to purchase coverage? They can't, and won't. I'm still paying for it.
2. HOW? Please show proof. Because they do not. Are you aware that they don't even have to pay taxes if they are here on a Documented work visa? You kinda missed that one didn't you? And just how do illegals "rarely get to use it"? You're saying that an undocumented alien is paying documented taxes but then goes to an emergency room after a car accident, and is turned away... to die in the street, right? Because Republicans are mean, right? This is the kind of bold faced lie that proponents of the unconstitutional healthcare law constantly perpetuate. It is a LIE.
3. Yes genius, anchor-babies are citizens. They have just as much right to publicly-funded HC as my kids do. IN THEORY. In PRACTICE, however, my kid doesn't qualify. Why? Because my kid's parents are American citizens. Being white and employed doesn't help open the doors either, btw.. In short, because the taxes I pay cannot cover the cost of my kids AND an illegal's kids, then the PUBLICY FUNDED services go to the anchor baby, while the American parents pay for it.
In closing, this HC issue is one of the biggest of our time, HC for the millions of aliens in this country is under that umbrella, so this is on topic. Excluding it would be like discussing the causes of the Civil War but leaving out the question of westward expansion of slavery. Duh.
Your kid doesn't qualify for Medicaid because of household income, not because your kid's parents are citizens. Are you upset that your kids don't qualify for Medicaid? Or just resentful that taxpayer money funds Medicaid for children of illegals? Do you think the kids shouldn't get Medicaid?
This is just something you made up: "There are more FREE services for illegals than Americans."
Are you upset that illegals get emergency room services? Should that be denied to them?
I hope you can respond to these questions rather than ignore them or act like you don't understand what I wrote.
No, Beavers, but you rarely have any ideas to respond to... sorry, but its just that way.... You follow me around on the board and snipe at my comments with brilliant questions like the ones you just asked:
"Are you upset that little immigrant children are treated by doctors?"
"Do you think little immigrant children should die on emergency room floors?"
Give me a break, man... I will continue to ignore that crap as long as you sling it.
1. There are NOT more free healthcare services for undocumented immigrants than American citizens. As a matter of fact, you haven't even named ONE free service for undocumented immigrants. Please provide a comprehensive list of these services of which you speak.
2. Undocumented immigrants pay sales tax, often pay payroll taxes, etc. If you want to have a conversation about immigrants' tax rates, start a thread about it. Re: how they rarely get to use the services they help pay for, please refer to #1.
3. Glad we agree that your single piece of anecdotal "evidence" about a flyer your wife distributed is not relevant to you claim about undocumented immigrants since it refers to American citizens.
1. Medicaid.
2.OH... they pay SALES tax. A fucking CITY tax. So when the get their assistance check/ free money/ (my money), they have to pay a CITY SALES TAX if they want to buy a hamburger or something. And you equate that to paying Fed, State, County, City, MediC/MedicA/ Social Security, etc? And they "OFTEN" pay payroll tax? Like how "often"? Like when?! And who? Can you give one example of an undocumented illegal alien paying documented payroll taxes? I doubt it, b/c you have no fucking idea. And that part about work visa and STILL no taxes? Didn't hear you respond to that one- because you had no fucking idea.
3. See number 1.
You attack 1 of 2 stories I told of real people in the med field and how Medicaid costs for illegals are negatively affecting their businesses, and making it hard to treat such people, and you painted it as insignifigant and "anecdotal".
Right before posting some unreadable droning about your day job phoning insurance companies- but I guess for your anecdotes, we should all gather round with open ears, hearts, and minds?
What a joke.
1. Undocumented immigrants are NOT eligible for general Medicaid. Under rare emergency circumstances, they are occasionally eligible for EMSA (Emergency Medical Services for Aliens), but that's only something they can apply for after they have received emergency medical services and many/most don't even apply for it because they're advised by their immigration lawyers not to. This is the same Medicaid any legal visitor to our country may be eligible for if they require emergency medical services while visiting our country. But for Medicaid in general, you have to provide proof of citizenship or legal residency. I know this because I am a Medicaid determiner. My job is to determine Medicaid eligibility. (That's only one part of my larger job.) YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
2. You know how there are always racist, anti-immigrant people complaining that undocumented immigrants can and do easily use fake social security numbers to get jobs? Those people are on the payroll. They pay all the SAME taxes that you and I pay.
3. See #1.
Both of your anecdotes were about Medicaid - for AMERICAN CITIZENS! They are not in any way relevant to your claims about undocumented immigrants. You STILL haven't posted ANYTHING at all to support your claims and you know you have nothing, so now you're resorting to personal attacks.
(And by the way, - is a hyphen; _ is an underscore.)
No, Beavers, but you rarely have any ideas to respond to... sorry, but its just that way.... You follow me around on the board and snipe at my comments with brilliant questions like the ones you just asked:
"Are you upset that little immigrant children are treated by doctors?"
"Do you think little immigrant children should die on emergency room floors?"
Give me a break, man... I will continue to ignore that crap as long as you sling it.
I'm just curious... which one of the banned trolls did you used to be?
OP, sorry to go off on a meaningless conversation with a troll. I know you came here for some facts. The fact is that it can be very difficult for poor people in the United States to get health coverage. It's nearly impossible if you don't have the proper documentation. There is some pretty good coverage for children through Medicaid, but different states have different income requirements for that and many people make too much money for their kids to get Medicaid but not enough money to pay out of pocket for private insurance if their employer doesn't provide it. Even if their employer does provide medical insurance, it can still be very costly and many people still can't afford it. And those who do have private insurance still often have to wait a long time for care and can't ever guarantee that their services will really be covered.
Touching on your points about lobby influence, I feel the root cause of a lot of our problems lie in career politicians, 2-year congressional terms, and no term limits. I believe a 4-6 year, one term limit for both senators and congressmen would go a very long way in breaking this cycle of lobby influence. I don't understand why the Tea Party and OWS don't focus on this aspect. Instead of attacking a diseased tree at the roots, we are attacking individual limbs.
No, Beavers, but you rarely have any ideas to respond to... sorry, but its just that way.... You follow me around on the board and snipe at my comments with brilliant questions like the ones you just asked:
"Are you upset that little immigrant children are treated by doctors?"
"Do you think little immigrant children should die on emergency room floors?"
Give me a break, man... I will continue to ignore that crap as long as you sling it.
I didn't ask those questions, but I guess you're trying to make some sort of point. You avoid my points as well as others who disagree with you in here. I'm not slinging crap, I'm trying to figure out your resistance to children of illegals receiving Medicaid (but please find out what Medicaid actually is before you continue to make reference to it). Also, illegals aren't elligible for cash welfare.
I follow you around on the board?! Let's not make ourself more grandiose than we already are.
No, Beavers, but you rarely have any ideas to respond to... sorry, but its just that way.... You follow me around on the board and snipe at my comments with brilliant questions like the ones you just asked:
"Are you upset that little immigrant children are treated by doctors?"
"Do you think little immigrant children should die on emergency room floors?"
Give me a break, man... I will continue to ignore that crap as long as you sling it.
I didn't ask those questions, but I guess you're trying to make some sort of point. You avoid my points as well as others who disagree with you in here. I'm not slinging crap, I'm trying to figure out your resistance to children of illegals receiving Medicaid (but please find out what Medicaid actually is before you continue to make reference to it). Also, illegals aren't elligible for cash welfare.
I follow you around on the board?! Let's not make ourself more grandiose than we already are.
yeah i am still waiting for a serious explanation about why obama is a marxist...but i digress...
people believe that illegals should not receive medicaid because they are not born here. as if being born here makes one more of a human being or something. but the funny thing to me is, in my years on this forum, 75% of the people complaining about the illegals receiving medicaid are the same ones who gripe about ANYONE receiving medicaid in other threads.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
MayDay Malone is too angry to actually discuss anything like an adult...respectable grown ups can their case then listen respectfully to others opinions, in a hope to inform or be informed. What's the point in going so mental over this? You seem to be so angry about how illegal immigrants are poisoning your world. I'm sure if this was a thread on any other issue of American politics, you'd find a way to rant on about the same point. Your 'evidence' is nowhere near as strong as the volume and frequency by which you shout. Are you really expecting your generalizing views to actually convince anyone that you are right? Probably not...your posts have led me to believe that you likely don't care how people respond to you...which makes me question: what are you trying to achieve? You've managed to turn this thread into a one person shouting match, taking away all focus from people who are actually contributing very well, as adults. No one's expecting unanimous agreement - we're allowed to have different political viewpoints...just stop being an arse about it.
You can't spend your time alone, re-digesting past regrets - you can't come to terms and realize you're the only one who can forgive yourself - it makes much more sense to live in the present tense.
Leeds Festival - 25/08/2006, London O2 - 18/08/2009. London Hyde Park - 25/06/2010...upcoming... Manchester MEN - 20/06/2012, Manchester MEN - 21/06/2012
Touching on your points about lobby influence, I feel the root cause of a lot of our problems lie in career politicians, 2-year congressional terms, and no term limits. I believe a 4-6 year, one term limit for both senators and congressmen would go a very long way in breaking this cycle of lobby influence. I don't understand why the Tea Party and OWS don't focus on this aspect. Instead of attacking a diseased tree at the roots, we are attacking individual limbs.
Agree 100% Term limits are needed
We need to form a collective voice and force this issue. How we do that ... I need someone to help me out on that. How do you convince an elected official to support this when you are essentially asking them how to end their career prematurely?
Touching on your points about lobby influence, I feel the root cause of a lot of our problems lie in career politicians, 2-year congressional terms, and no term limits. I believe a 4-6 year, one term limit for both senators and congressmen would go a very long way in breaking this cycle of lobby influence. I don't understand why the Tea Party and OWS don't focus on this aspect. Instead of attacking a diseased tree at the roots, we are attacking individual limbs.
Agree 100% Term limits are needed
We need to form a collective voice and force this issue. How we do that ... I need someone to help me out on that. How do you convince an elected official to support this when you are essentially asking them how to end their career prematurely?
I dont think you could convince many already in office to support this, you have to get to the candidates running against them. Other than letter writing and short of protest.... I dont know. Infiltrate OWS/Tea Party and make a nice sign ......but seriously if you could get one of those groups onboard at least you would have media attention and a much greater audience.
1. There are NOT more free healthcare services for undocumented immigrants than American citizens. As a matter of fact, you haven't even named ONE free service for undocumented immigrants. Please provide a comprehensive list of these services of which you speak.
2. Undocumented immigrants pay sales tax, often pay payroll taxes, etc. If you want to have a conversation about immigrants' tax rates, start a thread about it. Re: how they rarely get to use the services they help pay for, please refer to #1.
3. Glad we agree that your single piece of anecdotal "evidence" about a flyer your wife distributed is not relevant to you claim about undocumented immigrants since it refers to American citizens.
1. Medicaid.
2.OH... they pay SALES tax. A fucking CITY tax. So when the get their assistance check/ free money/ (my money), they have to pay a CITY SALES TAX if they want to buy a hamburger or something. And you equate that to paying Fed, State, County, City, MediC/MedicA/ Social Security, etc? And they "OFTEN" pay payroll tax? Like how "often"? Like when?! And who? Can you give one example of an undocumented illegal alien paying documented payroll taxes? I doubt it, b/c you have no fucking idea. And that part about work visa and STILL no taxes? Didn't hear you respond to that one- because you had no fucking idea.
3. See number 1.
You attack 1 of 2 stories I told of real people in the med field and how Medicaid costs for illegals are negatively affecting their businesses, and making it hard to treat such people, and you painted it as insignifigant and "anecdotal".
Right before posting some unreadable droning about your day job phoning insurance companies- but I guess for your anecdotes, we should all gather round with open ears, hearts, and minds?
What a joke.
1. Undocumented immigrants are NOT eligible for general Medicaid. Under rare emergency circumstances, they are occasionally eligible for EMSA (Emergency Medical Services for Aliens), but that's only something they can apply for after they have received emergency medical services and many/most don't even apply for it because they're advised by their immigration lawyers not to. This is the same Medicaid any legal visitor to our country may be eligible for if they require emergency medical services while visiting our country. But for Medicaid in general, you have to provide proof of citizenship or legal residency. I know this because I am a Medicaid determiner. My job is to determine Medicaid eligibility. (That's only one part of my larger job.) YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
2. You know how there are always racist, anti-immigrant people complaining that undocumented immigrants can and do easily use fake social security numbers to get jobs? Those people are on the payroll. They pay all the SAME taxes that you and I pay.
3. See #1.
Both of your anecdotes were about Medicaid - for AMERICAN CITIZENS! They are not in any way relevant to your claims about undocumented immigrants. You STILL haven't posted ANYTHING at all to support your claims and you know you have nothing, so now you're resorting to personal attacks.
(And by the way, - is a hyphen; _ is an underscore.)
My anecdotes were about American Medical providers providing care to ILLEGALS.
Look, I just don't care to discuss this with you anymore. I'll be nice and just say we disagree.
I can't cancel my Xmas because some jackass on the internet is wrong.
Comments
So I kind of misspoke in my post, then. I meant that I don't trust the government to run healthcare OR health insurance any better than the private sector.
We have to get away from the concept of ANY other entity paying for our healthcare other than ourselves (unless it's some sort of catastrophic policy).
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
It is the same thing in Canada. No politican would dare to mess too much with the health care system since it would mean pretty close to instant political death. On top of that a government funded health care system helps to keep government spending in check when it comes to other areas. I mean it gets more difficult for the government to spend money on other crap when they know the opposition and the media will hammer them because the millions they spent on what ever could pay for x amount of hospital beds or x amount of MRI machines.
the government will fund it how again?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I'd be very surprised if that happened though
Hell just reorganize he health care funding they already have. My understanding is that in the US the government spends more per person on health care than in Canada. So instead of funding county hospitals where people go to the ER as a last resort when they are really sick (and it is really expensive for a doctor to see them) allocate some more of that money to family doctors so that when people are a little bit sick, or not sick at all they can go to their family doctor (which is cheaper) and then maybe they won't end up in the ER.
Not to mention the fact that a healthy workforce where people have easy access to doctors to keep them from getting sick is good for the economy in general.
I totally agree with you on this. My place of employment began with a young man that wanted to do business in a different way. He cared about his employees and wanted them to have a share in the profits and genuinely wanted his employees taken care of in return for a honest day of hard work. He was a Christian an acted as one. He gave benefits that were unheard of in this business and you could work your way up to a hefty salary with only a high school education. Managers retire million heirs, the little guy retires with enough stock to retire on (stock is given to them).
Now is a different story. The owner passed away and the kids took over. They are doing what you said…hire two 20hr workers instead of giving full time to people so that they can make a living. Promising people that have worked there for years full time but they never give it.
Greed is killing this country!
This recently happened to me. I have very good health insurance. Woke up with excruciating chest pain. Went to the hospital emergency room was taken immediately. They did test, chest x-rays, admitted me in the hospital, did more test. The next day they said they check my heart it was fine, my chest x-ray came out fine. I was very happy about this, and said so. Then I say what is next, because I just want to get rid of this pain. They say, well the hospitals are not as they used to be were they run test to find out what is wrong with you. They just stabilize you and have you follow up with you primary doctor. Stabilize means giving me pain pills and sending me out the door. Therefore, I try to follow up with a gastro doc. However, they are on vacation until after the holidays.
zillions of unnecessary drugs ... how about the new one for if you work
night shift :? unbelievable ridiculous side effects
our fore fathers would be chuckling at the weak shits this world has grown into :lol
and you are also right about the hospital. their mentality now is "treat 'em and street 'em"...get them in, take care of them, run the tests, and send them back to the primary doc to manage the treatment from there. hospitals are triage centers if you are an outpatient. if you are an inpatient that is when they do the treatment. they send you back to your primary once the tests are run so that your primary doctor can refer you to whatever treatment or whatever specialist you need to see. many insurances will not cover specialty referrals unless you are referred by your primary care physician.
and i agree that greed is what is ruining this country. last i checked greed was one of the 7 deadlies...
good luck, and i hope that everything gets taken care of soon.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Correction: WE will be paying for it. We will be supporting a system that suffers high prices due to corruption and nothing is being done to help lower prices. And since WE will be forced to pay it (or go to jail and share a cell w/ Wesley Snipes), what incentive does the current system have to lower prices?
Or raise prices? :think:
Once again, the root cause is not being addressed.
I support universal health care. I don't support our current system that drives small business into the ground and doesn't allow people to have healthcare because it's so expensive.
Funny, know1 replied to my post by calling it a system where another entity pays for it instead of us. But we all know what we're talking about & know we're talking about the same thing.
I'm not sure what root cause you're referring to that's not being addressed, but I disagree with your line of thinking here - or at least it's not making sense to me. You say you don't support an overhaul of the system because you don't support the current system. :? You seem to be interchanging current & proposed new systems as if they're the same thing.
Studies have shown time & again that the problem with the current system is high administrative costs set up by private, for-profit health insurance companies - not government corruption (except to extent that they refuse to change the system). The government-run health insurance systems we already have have much lower administrative costs. And when we all recognize that we're paying for it as the health insurance that covers all of us, we'll have plenty of incentive to keep costs low and service high. We'll all be in it together. And we sure as hell have more power over our elected politicians than over greedy private insurance CEOs with the law on their side saying they have the right to fuck us over for their own profit. I'm not sure who it is you think we'll be better able to keep in line if not the private or public sectors. Who else is left? (know1 would likely say the individual, but that answer's not applicable here since we're talking about running a system of universal care and an every-man-for-himself approach would certainly not allow for universal care.)
I'm also curious: Do you think the politicians in all the other developed countries are so much less corrupt and more altruistic than ours that their systems work while ours would be sure to fail?
1. You are right. There ARE more healthcare services for Americans than illegals. But that's not the point. Focus man. There are more FREE services for illegals than Americans. And by FREE, I mean FREE to illegals, but PAID FOR by taxpaying Americans, who also have to buy their own. Big Difference. And under the new law, just how will the Gov't compel an undocumented illegal to purchase coverage? They can't, and won't. I'm still paying for it.
2. HOW? Please show proof. Because they do not. Are you aware that they don't even have to pay taxes if they are here on a Documented work visa? You kinda missed that one didn't you? And just how do illegals "rarely get to use it"? You're saying that an undocumented alien is paying documented taxes but then goes to an emergency room after a car accident, and is turned away... to die in the street, right? Because Republicans are mean, right? This is the kind of bold faced lie that proponents of the unconstitutional healthcare law constantly perpetuate. It is a LIE.
3. Yes genius, anchor-babies are citizens. They have just as much right to publicly-funded HC as my kids do. IN THEORY. In PRACTICE, however, my kid doesn't qualify. Why? Because my kid's parents are American citizens. Being white and employed doesn't help open the doors either, btw.. In short, because the taxes I pay cannot cover the cost of my kids AND an illegal's kids, then the PUBLICY FUNDED services go to the anchor baby, while the American parents pay for it.
In closing, this HC issue is one of the biggest of our time, HC for the millions of aliens in this country is under that umbrella, so this is on topic. Excluding it would be like discussing the causes of the Civil War but leaving out the question of westward expansion of slavery. Duh.
1. There are NOT more free healthcare services for undocumented immigrants than American citizens. As a matter of fact, you haven't even named ONE free service for undocumented immigrants. Please provide a comprehensive list of these services of which you speak.
2. Undocumented immigrants pay sales tax, often pay payroll taxes, etc. If you want to have a conversation about immigrants' tax rates, start a thread about it. Re: how they rarely get to use the services they help pay for, please refer to #1.
3. Glad we agree that your single piece of anecdotal "evidence" about a flyer your wife distributed is not relevant to you claim about undocumented immigrants since it refers to American citizens.
This is what Americans who DO have "good" health insurance have to deal with. You can call your insurance company before a procedure and they can tell you it's covered, but that doesn't mean anything. You can have your procedure and then the insurance can still refuse to cover it. All they have to say is, "Just because we told you it's covered doesn't mean it is." In fact, they say this right up front with the disclaimer above.
I just called a patient's insurance company to find out if her procedure is covered and was told it's not. Then I called back again and asked the exact same question and was told that it IS covered. What is the patient supposed to believe? What would she believe had I spoken to the second insurance lady first? I'm inclined to believe that it is covered, because 99 times out of 100, this insurance company tells me they cover this procedure. But what if it's not? If the patient pays cash up front, it will cost her about $400. But if we bill the insurance company and they deny the claim, it will cost her thousands of dollars. We're not even able to know exactly how much it will cost. But, really, she shouldn't pay anything because her insurance should cover it. So why would she pay $400 (that she doesn't have laying around anyway) for something she's been told by her insurance company that they cover? Oh, right, because you never really know what they'll cover, because statements of benefits do not guarantee payment of services. It's crazy!
Your kid doesn't qualify for Medicaid because of household income, not because your kid's parents are citizens. Are you upset that your kids don't qualify for Medicaid? Or just resentful that taxpayer money funds Medicaid for children of illegals? Do you think the kids shouldn't get Medicaid?
This is just something you made up: "There are more FREE services for illegals than Americans."
Are you upset that illegals get emergency room services? Should that be denied to them?
I hope you can respond to these questions rather than ignore them or act like you don't understand what I wrote.
I agree that it's not being overhauled, so I guess we've been talking about different things. I'm saying it does need to be overhauled because the current system sucks. I'd like to see them change to a single-payer system that would cover everyone, but that's not even on the table in Washington.
If you're talking about the Affordable Care Act, I think it does address some things that need to be fixed, but it's FAR from being what we need. I'd say politicians are not addressing what we really need because corporate interests currently control our politics and our media. So big insurance and pharm companies have powerful lobbyists in Washington that push their agenda through, and the media has tricked the public into believing all sorts of blatant myths about universal healthcare. So even the politicians who aren't in the corporate pockets have a hard time getting past a mass uninformed electorate when saying they support universal healthcare brings cries of socialism.
We have one shot at making a change and this isn't really a change. If anything, I feel healthcare prices will increase quite a bit once a taxpayer-funded I.V . is tapped.
Touching on your points about lobby influence, I feel the root cause of a lot of our problems lie in career politicians, 2-year congressional terms, and no term limits. I believe a 4-6 year, one term limit for both senators and congressmen would go a very long way in breaking this cycle of lobby influence. I don't understand why the Tea Party and OWS don't focus on this aspect. Instead of attacking a diseased tree at the roots, we are attacking individual limbs.
On a side note, I'm very happy that Barry Bonds was not sent to prison for being convicted of lying to the biggest group of liars in the world.
1. Medicaid.
2.OH... they pay SALES tax. A fucking CITY tax. So when the get their assistance check/ free money/ (my money), they have to pay a CITY SALES TAX if they want to buy a hamburger or something. And you equate that to paying Fed, State, County, City, MediC/MedicA/ Social Security, etc? And they "OFTEN" pay payroll tax? Like how "often"? Like when?! And who? Can you give one example of an undocumented illegal alien paying documented payroll taxes? I doubt it, b/c you have no fucking idea. And that part about work visa and STILL no taxes? Didn't hear you respond to that one- because you had no fucking idea.
3. See number 1.
You attack 1 of 2 stories I told of real people in the med field and how Medicaid costs for illegals are negatively affecting their businesses, and making it hard to treat such people, and you painted it as insignifigant and "anecdotal".
Right before posting some unreadable droning about your day job phoning insurance companies- but I guess for your anecdotes, we should all gather round with open ears, hearts, and minds?
What a joke.
No, Beavers, but you rarely have any ideas to respond to... sorry, but its just that way.... You follow me around on the board and snipe at my comments with brilliant questions like the ones you just asked:
"Are you upset that little immigrant children are treated by doctors?"
"Do you think little immigrant children should die on emergency room floors?"
Give me a break, man... I will continue to ignore that crap as long as you sling it.
1. Undocumented immigrants are NOT eligible for general Medicaid. Under rare emergency circumstances, they are occasionally eligible for EMSA (Emergency Medical Services for Aliens), but that's only something they can apply for after they have received emergency medical services and many/most don't even apply for it because they're advised by their immigration lawyers not to. This is the same Medicaid any legal visitor to our country may be eligible for if they require emergency medical services while visiting our country. But for Medicaid in general, you have to provide proof of citizenship or legal residency. I know this because I am a Medicaid determiner. My job is to determine Medicaid eligibility. (That's only one part of my larger job.) YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
2. You know how there are always racist, anti-immigrant people complaining that undocumented immigrants can and do easily use fake social security numbers to get jobs? Those people are on the payroll. They pay all the SAME taxes that you and I pay.
3. See #1.
Both of your anecdotes were about Medicaid - for AMERICAN CITIZENS! They are not in any way relevant to your claims about undocumented immigrants. You STILL haven't posted ANYTHING at all to support your claims and you know you have nothing, so now you're resorting to personal attacks.
(And by the way, - is a hyphen; _ is an underscore.)
I'm just curious... which one of the banned trolls did you used to be?
Agree 100% Term limits are needed
I didn't ask those questions, but I guess you're trying to make some sort of point. You avoid my points as well as others who disagree with you in here. I'm not slinging crap, I'm trying to figure out your resistance to children of illegals receiving Medicaid (but please find out what Medicaid actually is before you continue to make reference to it). Also, illegals aren't elligible for cash welfare.
I follow you around on the board?! Let's not make ourself more grandiose than we already are.
people believe that illegals should not receive medicaid because they are not born here. as if being born here makes one more of a human being or something. but the funny thing to me is, in my years on this forum, 75% of the people complaining about the illegals receiving medicaid are the same ones who gripe about ANYONE receiving medicaid in other threads.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Leeds Festival - 25/08/2006, London O2 - 18/08/2009. London Hyde Park - 25/06/2010...upcoming... Manchester MEN - 20/06/2012, Manchester MEN - 21/06/2012
I dont think you could convince many already in office to support this, you have to get to the candidates running against them. Other than letter writing and short of protest.... I dont know. Infiltrate OWS/Tea Party and make a nice sign
My anecdotes were about American Medical providers providing care to ILLEGALS.
Look, I just don't care to discuss this with you anymore. I'll be nice and just say we disagree.
I can't cancel my Xmas because some jackass on the internet is wrong.
Peace through strength, bitches.