Universal healthcare...lets discuss!

Jamie_The_CFH · December 2011

I'm interested to hear people's views on universal healthcare.

As a Scotsman, I have grown up with the NHS providing my healthcare needs before I was even aware of it. In this way, I guess I have almost viewed universal healthcare as an 'innate right' of the people. Despite the obvious problems inherent with a system struggling to cater for an aging population, I feel somewhat content knowing that if I am in an accident, my first worry isn't medical bills. Although it's common to argue that the level of healthcare offered here is unsatisfactory, I feel this is somewhat exaggerated simply to give politicians an emotive platform for perpetual argument! My family's history of NHS treatment has been largely successful. Although many problems with my mother (still ongoing) have been undeniably exacerbated by long waiting lists for surgery, there would be NO WAY most people would have been able to afford the 5 complex surgeries she has underwent over this past year alone. Therefore, I owe a lot to the NHS in this way...people are often so quick to criticize the system because they don't understand what it would be like to live without it.

I am interested in hearing some American opinions on the subject. I have a few questions as I am not educated on US healthcare...

* Do most employers offer healthcare packages?
* Are minimum wage workers able to pay medical bills sufficiently?
* Are insurance companies really as inhumane and profit hungry as 'Sicko' makes them out to be?
* How much are you charged for your drugs? (well, what is the range of prices)
* If you are uninsured and are in a bad accident, do you get the surgery regardless and are subsequently forced to pay up later?...or are you simply 'stabilized' to the condition of 'not dying' (this one I'm really interested in)
* Is it in fact us Brits who are 'overpaying' into our healthcare system when we may rarely need it ourselves?

I would argue that ideology is of the utmost importance here...My upbringing and education has socialized me into a frame of mind whereby universal healthcare is the norm and completely necessary as a foundation for society...whereas many may see that as an obstruction of your freedom to 'opt out'.

If anyone from a 'non universal healthcare nation' has any anecdotal evidence supporting or opposing your own system, I'd love to hear from you.

P.S - As a side note, living in Scotland, we differ from England in that since April 2011, we pay no fee for our prescription drugs

Regards,

Jamie

peacefrompaul · December 2011

This will be interesting.

catefrances · December 2011

i too live in a country with universal healthcare. i am very grateful it exists and that ones health care needs arent reliant on ones income. however if you so choose, you can contribute via private healthcare insurance in order that you recieve a better level of care, in theory. what i dont understand however is how after forking out all that money to a private health insurance company, one still may need to pay a gap...isnt one paying premiums in order to avoid this?? i wouldve thought so.

_ · December 2011

Only 13 posts... that explains it.

(Just kidding. I'm just giving you a hard time because you've opened up what is always a huge can of worms around here.)

Jamie_The_CFH wrote:

I'm interested to hear people's views on universal healthcare.

I wholeheartedly support universal health care. And by that I mean single-payer universal healthcare. (And I work in healthcare, by the way.)

As a Scotsman, I have grown up with the NHS providing my healthcare needs before I was even aware of it. In this way, I guess I have almost viewed universal healthcare as an 'innate right' of the people. Despite the obvious problems inherent with a system struggling to cater for an aging population, I feel somewhat content knowing that if I am in an accident, my first worry isn't medical bills. Although it's common to argue that the level of healthcare offered here is unsatisfactory,

That's a piss-poor argument against universal health care because it's based on the myth that our (American) healthcare IS satisfactory - but it's not. We say we don't want to ration healthcare or wait in long lines, but we ALREADY DO ration healthcare & wait in long lines.

Do you know where my grandfather is right this very minute? My grandfather who fought for this country in WWII, worked extremely hard and paid into the system all his life, invested & saved enough money so that, unlike most elderly Americans, he has good health insurance and more money than most of us? He's in the hallway of an emergency room, where he's been all day & will probably be all night - and he still hasn't even seen a doctor. And this is the healthcare received by people with good insurance & plenty of money.

I feel this is somewhat exaggerated simply to give politicians an emotive platform for perpetual argument! My family's history of NHS treatment has been largely successful. Although many problems with my mother (still ongoing) have been undeniably exacerbated by long waiting lists for surgery, there would be NO WAY most people would have been able to afford the 5 complex surgeries she has underwent over this past year alone. Therefore, I owe a lot to the NHS in this way...people are often so quick to criticize the system because they don't understand what it would be like to live without it.

And people here criticize it but they don't know what it's like to actually have it.

I am interested in hearing some American opinions on the subject. I have a few questions as I am not educated on US healthcare...

* Do most employers offer healthcare packages?

I don't know the answer to this question. Many do & many don't. It's hard to gauge because the more important question to ask is who they offer it to. Many companies offer health insurance to the people in higher positions but not to the regular, low-paid workers. Many other companies theoretically offer health insurance to the employees in lower positions, but you have to be a full time employee - but they won't actually let those employees work full time. Full time is 40 hours per week and it's pretty standard for the lowest-level employees to be allowed to work 30, 35, sometimes even 39 hours/week - but never 40 hours/week - specifically so the employer doesn't have to pay health insurance. It's cheaper for them to hire two employees at 20 hrs/wk each than one employee at 40.

* Are minimum wage workers able to pay medical bills sufficiently?

No. They usually have to rely on federally-funded health care coverage for poor people (Medicaid), but that's primarily for children & pregnant women. Regular adults are frequently out of luck. Some individual cities or public hospitals have programs for "indigent" people, but it's not uniform. And there are practically no programs that serve people who aren't legal residents of the country or city.

* Are insurance companies really as inhumane and profit hungry as 'Sicko' makes them out to be?

Sometimes. They're always profit-hungry; they're for-profit businesses, so their primary objective is to make money. Sometimes they're inhumane & sometimes they're not. The problem is that even when they're humane, that's not something you can count on.

* How much are you charged for your drugs? (well, what is the range of prices)

This varies wildly. Some people pay nothing. Some people pay thousands of dollars per month. It depends on what (if any) prescription plan you have & what drugs you need. Many people go without their needed medication because they can't afford it. And your prescription plan can change at the drop of a hat.

My sister & I were just today discussing how one of her colleagues is getting totally screwed over in his employment contract, but he can't do anything about it because they know they have him by the balls because he has a medical condition that requires him to take $2000/month worth of medication - so if he quits or loses his job he'll be fucked without prescription coverage.

* If you are uninsured and are in a bad accident, do you get the surgery regardless and are subsequently forced to pay up later?...or are you simply 'stabilized' to the condition of 'not dying' (this one I'm really interested in)

This question is a little too complicated because it depends on each individual situation, injuries, etc. There are all kinds of surgeries you could be referring too. Hospitals are required to provide emergency care. If you show up in labor, for instance, that's an emergency that's not necessarily life-threatening, but they're required to care for you. The problems that I would say are bigger than hospitals not providing care are:

1) The subsequent medical bills. Medical bills are the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the United States.

2) People not seeking care because they're afraid of the medical bills. For instance, my neighbor was doing some work on the roof and fell two stories, head first, into the rocks below. He had blood gushing everywhere, some broken ribs, and a concussion. And he absolutely refused to go to the hospital because he doesn't have health insurance said there's no way he could afford the medical bills. I was finally able to take him only after his head trauma made him so disoriented that I was able to trick him into going with me. This is also a problem because it prevents people from seeking primary care, so it's not uncommon for emergency rooms to be clogged with people whose medical problems could have been prevented if they hadn't let them get so out of hand by not seeking care sooner.

* Is it in fact us Brits who are 'overpaying' into our healthcare system when we may rarely need it ourselves?

This is a huge myth. In reality, the American taxpayers pay vastly more per capita for healthcare than any other nation in the world. Yet we have some of the worst health outcomes in the developed world.

I would argue that ideology is of the utmost importance here...My upbringing and education has socialized me into a frame of mind whereby universal healthcare is the norm and completely necessary as a foundation for society...whereas many may see that as an obstruction of your freedom to 'opt out'.

I agree. Except most people who feel this way want to opt out of pitching in for other people's health care but sure as hell want healthcare when it's them or their loved ones who need it. I've never heard of anyone saying, "Just go ahead and let me (or my child) die, doc, because I don't have a million dollars for medical care and I don't believe in publicly-funded healthcare."

If anyone from a 'non universal healthcare nation' has any anecdotal evidence supporting or opposing your own system, I'd love to hear from you.

The problem is that everyone (myself included) has anecdotal "evidence" for one side or the other. I'd suggest looking up some cold, hard data. Try the websites for Physicians for a National Health Plan and Unnatural Causes - they have lots of research. (Yes, I know the first group is obviously advocating a particular position; but that doesn't mean the rationale by which they came to their position was not objective.)

P.S - As a side note, living in Scotland, we differ from England in that since April 2011, we pay no fee for our prescription drugs

Regards,

Jamie

Interesting. Thanks for all the info. And welcome to the Train. :wave:

gimmesometruth27 · December 2011

i fully support universal single payer health insurance and i work in direct patient care as well.

to me it is pretty shitty to live in the "greatest nation on earth" while we have people dying in hospital waiting rooms and people losing their homes because they get sick...

nearly a trillion spent in iraq...that money was spent on things like bombs and jet fuel. things that blow up and go away or are burned as fuel and go away... the ultimate waste of money..

i wonder if we invested that money into our own people on a universal single payer system if we could have solved our health insurance problems that we face today. instead of using it to kill other people i would have liked to see us try something earthshattering in our own country. how much would that money have paid for had it been put to use in a single payer system? i can guarantee it would have helped at least a little and we would have gotten a return on our investment in the form of a healthier populace, but we will never know now..

_ · December 2011

I totally agree with you, gimme. It should be noted, however, that we already pay enough for health care to cover everyone without even having to divert extra money to pay for it.

Jamie_The_CFH · December 2011

_ wrote:

Only 13 posts... that explains it.

...precisely!

I'm full of wonder like it's my first day at uni...or like a lamb to the slaughter! Yeah, I kind of wanted to test the water by opening a can of worms to see how these discussions turn out...already some great discussion going down!

As a Scotsman, I have grown up with the NHS providing my healthcare needs before I was even aware of it. In this way, I guess I have almost viewed universal healthcare as an 'innate right' of the people. Despite the obvious problems inherent with a system struggling to cater for an aging population, I feel somewhat content knowing that if I am in an accident, my first worry isn't medical bills. Although it's common to argue that the level of healthcare offered here is unsatisfactory,

_ wrote:

That's a piss-poor argument against universal health care because it's based on the myth that our (American) healthcare IS satisfactory - but it's not. We say we don't want to ration healthcare or wait in long lines, but we ALREADY DO ration healthcare & wait in long lines.

I'm not sure what piss poor argument I'm trying to make here...perhaps I misunderstood and you feel that people who DO make this argument are in the wrong? I'm totally appreciative of our system and the fact that we've got the choice to go private if we wish...I'm just saying, lots of folk around these parts moan about the service the NHS provides...I'm fully supportive of said system...I think America's got some fantastic democratic foundations (small d, not big D) however, I feel a sufficient safety net of public sector healthcare is sorely missing from the good old US of A.

_ wrote:

Do you know where my grandfather is right this very minute? My grandfather who fought for this country in WWII, worked extremely hard and paid into the system all his life, invested & saved enough money so that, unlike most elderly Americans, he has good health insurance and more money than most of us? He's in the hallway of an emergency room, where he's been all day & will probably be all night - and he still hasn't even seen a doctor. And this is the healthcare received by people with good insurance & plenty of money.

Aye, this is just tragic...I just can't fathom this kind of service after, as you say, paying into the system his whole life...just tragic. Hope he's well soon.

_ wrote:

People not seeking care because they're afraid of the medical bills. For instance, my neighbor was doing some work on the roof and fell two stories, head first, into the rocks below. He had blood gushing everywhere, some broken ribs, and a concussion. And he absolutely refused to go to the hospital because he doesn't have health insurance said there's no way he could afford the medical bills. I was finally able to take him only after his head trauma made him so disoriented that I was able to trick him into going with me. This is also a problem because it prevents people from seeking primary care, so it's not uncommon for emergency rooms to be clogged with people whose medical problems could have been prevented if they hadn't let them get so out of hand by not seeking care sooner.

That’s nuts...god, we call an ambulance at the drop of a hat...our Accident and Emergency waiting rooms are filled with people with the slightest problem...people going to the hospital ‘just to be sure’...I don’t have a problem with this, I just think it’s nuts that after falling two storeys one could think NOT to go to hospital 

* Is it in fact us Brits who are 'overpaying' into our healthcare system when we may rarely need it ourselves?

_ wrote:

This is a huge myth. In reality, the American taxpayers pay vastly more per capita for healthcare than any other nation in the world. Yet we have some of the worst health outcomes in the developed world.

That’s what I suspected...I mean, our National Insurance is not that much off of our earnings really. I’d sure hate to be hit with the ‘real’ costs of our prescriptions, surgeries and general treatments.

I want to make it clear also, I don’t mean to be a prick by saying ‘look how shit it is for you guys’...I genuinely would love to see an improvement in American healthcare...I just think it’s pretty negligent of the executive and legislative branches of government to be pressurised into axing any substantial initiative for healthcare reform...However, is this an example of government looking out for their own interests? Or is the government merely mirroring the general will of the American people who are not interested in subscribing to universal healthcare?

Thanks for interest so far!

Kel Varnsen · December 2011

From what I have read the US already has government funded universal health care. It is called, if you need a doctor just go to the county ER when you are really sick and then just don't bother paying the bill. It just happens to be the dumbest, most inefficient form of universal health care there could be.

redrock · December 2011

I remember when I was living in the US, I had to wait until my next pay check to be able to see a doctor and was a week in agony (turned out I had a fractured one of the bones in my ankle) - but I had no spare money. Then, obviously the costs associated with this. I know people who have lost their homes due to medical bills (and yes, they did have company insurances but these don't really pay out what you need).

I live in the UK and, as I've said before, if not for the NHS, I doubt that my husband would be alive and 'well'. Being 'saved' by the neurosurgeons is just a first step (3 months intensive care, then high dependency ward). Then came months and months of intensive rehab, then the 'ticking along' care to this day. Also, for myself, years ago I had chest pains (but not what I thought were heart attack pains). Now, in the US, I would have just waited for the pain to go away and most probably put this down to a pulled muscle. I would have been dead as these chest pains were due to pulmonary embolism. Here, an ambulance was called, I was seen to immediately and cared for.

Oh... and I'm due for surgery in February some time. Sure it was a 10-week wait (nothing life threatening or I would have been in earlier), but I will still be 4/5 days in hospital and I don't have to worry about how I'm going to pay for it.

No 'can I pay for this' worry, no worry about bills coming after and the level of treatment I can afford/get. One should not have to forgo any medical issue due to lack of funds (and I'm not just talking 'poor' people here - middle class as well....)

Jason P · December 2011

I believe in universal healthcare. I don't believe in taking an existing healthcare system that has many flaws and forcing taxpayers to fund it even though the system is corrupt.

"Reform" doesn't mean forcing a broken system to be available to everyone. Reform means to put or change into an improved form or condition (at least according to google). We still have all the elements that have bogged our system down, caused outrageous costs, and are exploited by insurance companies and parasites. Only now we have provided a much bigger butterfly net by getting the taxpayer to fund those without insurance. Is that reform?

Reform means fixing the goddamn problem. I feel the same way about our federal budget. Fix it, and then come to me about funding it. That is the only way progress can be made.

know1 · December 2011

I think our whole system is horribly broken. I think the existence of health insurance and our reliance on it is the root cause of this.

I also do not have enough faith in the government to run healthcare (which does not equal health insurance by the way) any better, though.

I wish we could get away from health insurance to pay for every little thing. I wish we would pay out of pocket for those. I think people should carry high deductible insurance designed to cover more catastrophic medical needs.

I also wish employers weren't allowed to offer it as a benefit. Or if they do, at least let employees pay the premiums manually instead of automatic deduction.

EmBleve · December 2011

Jamie_The_CFH wrote:

I'm interested to hear people's views on universal healthcare.

I am interested in hearing some American opinions on the subject. I have a few questions as I am not educated on US healthcare...

* Do most employers offer healthcare packages?
* Are minimum wage workers able to pay medical bills sufficiently?
* Are insurance companies really as inhumane and profit hungry as 'Sicko' makes them out to be?
* How much are you charged for your drugs? (well, what is the range of prices)
* If you are uninsured and are in a bad accident, do you get the surgery regardless and are subsequently forced to pay up later?...or are you simply 'stabilized' to the condition of 'not dying' (this one I'm really interested in)
* Is it in fact us Brits who are 'overpaying' into our healthcare system when we may rarely need it ourselves?

I support universal health care. I'm not sure about 'most' employers..it depends on the company. Currently I work 2 jobs, and neither one offers health insurance. No, minimum wage workers are not able to pay medical bills efficiently (and I am just talking about general, preventative medicine i.e. vision, dental, gynecological--if you're talking about someone with existing chronic medical problems that need ongoing medical care--no way). I don't know enough about insurance to know about the "Sicko" comparison, but it seemed like a fair argument. Medication depends on the type and generic can be cheaper--varies widely (I have personally paid between $8 and $70 depending on the medication). If you're in a bad accident, yes, you will get treatment, but you will be responsible for the entire bill (which could be tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars). I used to a nurse in an emergency department and from what I have seen, patients are not provided care based on their insurance status--particularly if the case is life-threatening. It seems that the problem/issue lies after the fact i.e. rehabilitation/time of stay, follow-up, and, of course, paying the bill. Your last question I have no idea.

MayDay Malone · December 2011

_ wrote:

Only 13 posts... that explains it.

(Just kidding. I'm just giving you a hard time because you've opened up what is always a huge can of worms around here.)

Jamie_The_CFH wrote:

I'm interested to hear people's views on universal healthcare.

I wholeheartedly support universal health care. And by that I mean single-payer universal healthcare. (And I work in healthcare, by the way.)

As a Scotsman, I have grown up with the NHS providing my healthcare needs before I was even aware of it. In this way, I guess I have almost viewed universal healthcare as an 'innate right' of the people. Despite the obvious problems inherent with a system struggling to cater for an aging population, I feel somewhat content knowing that if I am in an accident, my first worry isn't medical bills. Although it's common to argue that the level of healthcare offered here is unsatisfactory,

That's a piss-poor argument against universal health care because it's based on the myth that our (American) healthcare IS satisfactory - but it's not. We say we don't want to ration healthcare or wait in long lines, but we ALREADY DO ration healthcare & wait in long lines.

Do you know where my grandfather is right this very minute? My grandfather who fought for this country in WWII, worked extremely hard and paid into the system all his life, invested & saved enough money so that, unlike most elderly Americans, he has good health insurance and more money than most of us? He's in the hallway of an emergency room, where he's been all day & will probably be all night - and he still hasn't even seen a doctor. And this is the healthcare received by people with good insurance & plenty of money.

I feel this is somewhat exaggerated simply to give politicians an emotive platform for perpetual argument! My family's history of NHS treatment has been largely successful. Although many problems with my mother (still ongoing) have been undeniably exacerbated by long waiting lists for surgery, there would be NO WAY most people would have been able to afford the 5 complex surgeries she has underwent over this past year alone. Therefore, I owe a lot to the NHS in this way...people are often so quick to criticize the system because they don't understand what it would be like to live without it.

And people here criticize it but they don't know what it's like to actually have it.

I am interested in hearing some American opinions on the subject. I have a few questions as I am not educated on US healthcare...

* Do most employers offer healthcare packages?

I don't know the answer to this question. Many do & many don't. It's hard to gauge because the more important question to ask is who they offer it to. Many companies offer health insurance to the people in higher positions but not to the regular, low-paid workers. Many other companies theoretically offer health insurance to the employees in lower positions, but you have to be a full time employee - but they won't actually let those employees work full time. Full time is 40 hours per week and it's pretty standard for the lowest-level employees to be allowed to work 30, 35, sometimes even 39 hours/week - but never 40 hours/week - specifically so the employer doesn't have to pay health insurance. It's cheaper for them to hire two employees at 20 hrs/wk each than one employee at 40.

* Are minimum wage workers able to pay medical bills sufficiently?

No. They usually have to rely on federally-funded health care coverage for poor people (Medicaid), but that's primarily for children & pregnant women. Regular adults are frequently out of luck. Some individual cities or public hospitals have programs for "indigent" people, but it's not uniform. And there are practically no programs that serve people who aren't legal residents of the country or city.

* Are insurance companies really as inhumane and profit hungry as 'Sicko' makes them out to be?

Sometimes. They're always profit-hungry; they're for-profit businesses, so their primary objective is to make money. Sometimes they're inhumane & sometimes they're not. The problem is that even when they're humane, that's not something you can count on.

* How much are you charged for your drugs? (well, what is the range of prices)

This varies wildly. Some people pay nothing. Some people pay thousands of dollars per month. It depends on what (if any) prescription plan you have & what drugs you need. Many people go without their needed medication because they can't afford it. And your prescription plan can change at the drop of a hat.

My sister & I were just today discussing how one of her colleagues is getting totally screwed over in his employment contract, but he can't do anything about it because they know they have him by the balls because he has a medical condition that requires him to take $2000/month worth of medication - so if he quits or loses his job he'll be fucked without prescription coverage.

* If you are uninsured and are in a bad accident, do you get the surgery regardless and are subsequently forced to pay up later?...or are you simply 'stabilized' to the condition of 'not dying' (this one I'm really interested in)

This question is a little too complicated because it depends on each individual situation, injuries, etc. There are all kinds of surgeries you could be referring too. Hospitals are required to provide emergency care. If you show up in labor, for instance, that's an emergency that's not necessarily life-threatening, but they're required to care for you. The problems that I would say are bigger than hospitals not providing care are:

1) The subsequent medical bills. Medical bills are the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the United States.

2) People not seeking care because they're afraid of the medical bills. For instance, my neighbor was doing some work on the roof and fell two stories, head first, into the rocks below. He had blood gushing everywhere, some broken ribs, and a concussion. And he absolutely refused to go to the hospital because he doesn't have health insurance said there's no way he could afford the medical bills. I was finally able to take him only after his head trauma made him so disoriented that I was able to trick him into going with me. This is also a problem because it prevents people from seeking primary care, so it's not uncommon for emergency rooms to be clogged with people whose medical problems could have been prevented if they hadn't let them get so out of hand by not seeking care sooner.

* Is it in fact us Brits who are 'overpaying' into our healthcare system when we may rarely need it ourselves?

This is a huge myth. In reality, the American taxpayers pay vastly more per capita for healthcare than any other nation in the world. Yet we have some of the worst health outcomes in the developed world.

I would argue that ideology is of the utmost importance here...My upbringing and education has socialized me into a frame of mind whereby universal healthcare is the norm and completely necessary as a foundation for society...whereas many may see that as an obstruction of your freedom to 'opt out'.

I agree. Except most people who feel this way want to opt out of pitching in for other people's health care but sure as hell want healthcare when it's them or their loved ones who need it. I've never heard of anyone saying, "Just go ahead and let me (or my child) die, doc, because I don't have a million dollars for medical care and I don't believe in publicly-funded healthcare."

If anyone from a 'non universal healthcare nation' has any anecdotal evidence supporting or opposing your own system, I'd love to hear from you.

The problem is that everyone (myself included) has anecdotal "evidence" for one side or the other. I'd suggest looking up some cold, hard data. Try the websites for Physicians for a National Health Plan and Unnatural Causes - they have lots of research. (Yes, I know the first group is obviously advocating a particular position; but that doesn't mean the rationale by which they came to their position was not objective.)

P.S - As a side note, living in Scotland, we differ from England in that since April 2011, we pay no fee for our prescription drugs

Regards,

Jamie

Interesting. Thanks for all the info. And welcome to the Train. :wave:

Ya, welcome to the train... and this "info" is wrong.

Just one example: There are more programs here to "help" illegals, with medical bills and care than there are for US citizens.

Proponents of Universal healthcare like to paint a picture of millions of Americans lying in the streets with cancer and no one to help them. It's a fallacy, and its just not true.

In our quest for "RIGHTS", we are losing our FREEDOMS.

cincybearcat · December 2011

MayDay Malone wrote:

In our quest for "RIGHTS", we are losing our FREEDOMS.

So what freedom are we losing if more people had access to better healthcare?

It painfully obvious that the current system isn't working. I'm 100% sure I don't agree with _ on everything, but I do think we need something different. I am also concerned about how it will be paid for however, which many people don't seem to think is any kind of an issue. But life ain't all rainbows and puppy dogs, someone has to pay.

I think it's time to stop the rhetoric on both sides and have an open discussion. Quit talking about people dying in the streets and quit avoiding the question of cost.

Go Beavers · December 2011

MayDay Malone wrote:

Ya, welcome to the train... and this "info" is wrong.

Just one example: There are more programs here to "help" illegals, with medical bills and care than there are for US citizens.

Proponents of Universal healthcare like to paint a picture of millions of Americans lying in the streets with cancer and no one to help them. It's a fallacy, and its just not true.

In our quest for "RIGHTS", we are losing our FREEDOMS.

If you're going to say the info is wrong, you might want to counter it with other info that you feel is right.

I'm kind of surprised that someone would defend the current healthcare situation, so in that way you're being admirable. Even opponents of Obama's health insurance plan offer little as an alternative, and I haven't seen anyone speak up for the status quo except Hannity.

People without insurance can get medical care, the question is how much will it cost them?

In peoples illogical fear of losing their RIGHTS and FREEDOMS, they're losing their compassion.

I wouldn't mind seeing some references to what you said about illegals.

peacefrompaul · December 2011

cincybearcat wrote:

MayDay Malone wrote:

In our quest for "RIGHTS", we are losing our FREEDOMS.

So what freedom are we losing if more people had access to better healthcare?

It painfully obvious that the current system isn't working. I'm 100% sure I don't agree with _ on everything, but I do think we need something different. I am also concerned about how it will be paid for however, which many people don't seem to think is any kind of an issue. But life ain't all rainbows and puppy dogs, someone has to pay.

I think it's time to stop the rhetoric on both sides and have an open discussion. Quit talking about people dying in the streets and quit avoiding the question of cost.

I agree. It sounds like a great deal but I'm not sure we're ready to pay for that as a country. Maybe we are and I'm just an idiot.

EmBleve · December 2011

Go Beavers wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing some references to what you said about illegals.

I do not know what MayDay is referring to, but I saw something a few months ago that exemplified this point (and I must admit, I was shocked). I live in an area where there is a large population of illegal immigrants for tobacco farms, particularly in the summer time. There is a rural dental clinic on the outskirts of town; they were hanging flyers on stores in town for dental care for $10 a visit (xrays, fillings, cleanings) for 'migrants' (read: illegal immigrants). I was having dental problems at the time, and I called them and was told that I would not be eligible. :shock: True story.

Jamie_The_CFH · December 2011

peacefrompaul wrote:

I agree. It sounds like a great deal but I'm not sure we're ready to pay for that as a country. Maybe we are and I'm just an idiot.

Yeah, it seems cost is so central to this...The United States is sooo huge that perhaps if there was sufficient public sector health care, it should be devolved to state level? I mean, size-wise it's basically like that in the UK, with us (Scotland) having many different policies from England (such as the aforementioned prescription costs). We've got such a small country so maybe that's why it's a bit easier for us to run an efficient national initiative. It would surely be a nightmare trying to coordinate a single national initiative for the U.S. Correct me if if wrong.

Kel Varnsen · December 2011

Jamie_The_CFH wrote:

peacefrompaul wrote:

I agree. It sounds like a great deal but I'm not sure we're ready to pay for that as a country. Maybe we are and I'm just an idiot.

Yeah, it seems cost is so central to this...The United States is sooo huge that perhaps if there was sufficient public sector health care, it should be devolved to state level? I mean, size-wise it's basically like that in the UK, with us (Scotland) having many different policies from England (such as the aforementioned prescription costs). We've got such a small country so maybe that's why it's a bit easier for us to run an efficient national initiative. It would surely be a nightmare trying to coordinate a single national initiative for the U.S. Correct me if if wrong.

Yea I don't know why the US would even try to implement this on a federal level. I mean in Canada too health insurance is managed by the provinces. Ontario manages to do ok with keeping things running, and there are only a handful of states in the US with a larger population than Ontario.

lukin2006 · December 2011

Universal Health Care here in Canada...and under no circumstances would I ever want the US system...at least here we are not to poor to be sick. It does have problems, mostly with elective surgeries, the wait can be a little time depending where you live, but if you're suspected of having something heinous you are usually taken care of promptly. Maybe the other big problem in some areas is finding a family doctor. Overall I'm pleased, I had a back strain a little while back, went to my family doc, had am ex ray, got a script and walked out costing nothing. Can't beat that...

cincybearcat · December 2011

lukin2006 wrote:

Universal Health Care here in Canada...and under no circumstances would I ever want the US system...at least here we are not to poor to be sick. It does have problems, mostly with elective surgeries, the wait can be a little time depending where you live, but if you're suspected of having something heinous you are usually taken care of promptly. Maybe the other big problem in some areas is finding a family doctor. Overall I'm pleased, I had a back strain a little while back, went to my family doc, had am ex ray, got a script and walked out costing nothing. Can't beat that...

You could just ice your back and save a lot of people a lot of money.

What the hell were they xraying a back strain for?

I'm just messing with ya. But what if you could just go to the drug store and buy the muscle relaxer/pain reliever over the counter? Just ice your back and take the meds when needed. What exactly did the doctor do for you in this case?

lukin2006 · December 2011

cincybearcat wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

Universal Health Care here in Canada...and under no circumstances would I ever want the US system...at least here we are not to poor to be sick. It does have problems, mostly with elective surgeries, the wait can be a little time depending where you live, but if you're suspected of having something heinous you are usually taken care of promptly. Maybe the other big problem in some areas is finding a family doctor. Overall I'm pleased, I had a back strain a little while back, went to my family doc, had am ex ray, got a script and walked out costing nothing. Can't beat that...

You could just ice your back and save a lot of people a lot of money.

What the hell were they xraying a back strain for?

I'm just messing with ya. But what if you could just go to the drug store and buy the muscle relaxer/pain reliever over the counter? Just ice your back and take the meds when needed. What exactly did the doctor do for you in this case?

how is my doc to know for sure.... After about 5 weeks, 10 chiropractor sessions and still the same I guess it was time to see the doc...oh by the way I pay taxes, those taxes help health care and guaranteed my family doc probably gets paid less for visit than American docs but has never tried to rush and is always thorough and answers all questions...and he's not paid by the hour.

Also don't go around giving medical advice...both chiropractor and doc say heat is the best recommended course of action.

He prescribed muscle relaxants that according to the pharmacist are excellent and usually work...so after 5 weeks trying alternative medicine and a week with my doctors remedy it all cleared up.

I think that's the problem in America...how many people are not getting checked properly and it could be more serious...

lukin2006 · December 2011

I'm not knocking the US system...if it works for you fine...I just like our system better...It does have problems, but for the most part not bad.

peacefrompaul · December 2011

EmBleve wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing some references to what you said about illegals.

I do not know what MayDay is referring to, but I saw something a few months ago that exemplified this point (and I must admit, I was shocked). I live in an area where there is a large population of illegal immigrants for tobacco farms, particularly in the summer time. There is a rural dental clinic on the outskirts of town; they were hanging flyers on stores in town for dental care for $10 a visit (xrays, fillings, cleanings) for 'migrants' (read: illegal immigrants). I was having dental problems at the time, and I called them and was told that I would not be eligible. :shock: True story.

Wow!

cincybearcat · December 2011

lukin2006 wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

Universal Health Care here in Canada...and under no circumstances would I ever want the US system...at least here we are not to poor to be sick. It does have problems, mostly with elective surgeries, the wait can be a little time depending where you live, but if you're suspected of having something heinous you are usually taken care of promptly. Maybe the other big problem in some areas is finding a family doctor. Overall I'm pleased, I had a back strain a little while back, went to my family doc, had am ex ray, got a script and walked out costing nothing. Can't beat that...

You could just ice your back and save a lot of people a lot of money.

What the hell were they xraying a back strain for?

I'm just messing with ya. But what if you could just go to the drug store and buy the muscle relaxer/pain reliever over the counter? Just ice your back and take the meds when needed. What exactly did the doctor do for you in this case?

how is my doc to know for sure.... After about 5 weeks, 10 chiropractor sessions and still the same I guess it was time to see the doc...oh by the way I pay taxes, those taxes help health care and guaranteed my family doc probably gets paid less for visit than American docs but has never tried to rush and is always thorough and answers all questions...and he's not paid by the hour.

Also don't go around giving medical advice...both chiropractor and doc say heat is the best recommended course of action.

He prescribed muscle relaxants that according to the pharmacist are excellent and usually work...so after 5 weeks trying alternative medicine and a week with my doctors remedy it all cleared up.

I think that's the problem in America...how many people are not getting checked properly and it could be more serious...

Relax, you are going to hurt your back again. I even said I was messing with you. I have no idea what your injury was like or for how long.

As far as the Ice/heat thing. It's actually a combo of both. Sorry I didn't get into details for you but pretty easy to understand, don't really need a doctor for that either. Cold = relieves the swelling ; Heat = helps begin to relax tissue and increase blood flow. It was just a joke.

cincybearcat · December 2011

lukin2006 wrote:

I'm not knocking the US system...if it works for you fine...I just like our system better...It does have problems, but for the most part not bad.

Well you should knock the US system, it doesn't work as well as it should.

My bet is the Canadian system should be knocked as well and it is likely not working the way it should...continuous improvement.

Kel Varnsen · December 2011

lukin2006 wrote:

Universal Health Care here in Canada...and under no circumstances would I ever want the US system...at least here we are not to poor to be sick. It does have problems, mostly with elective surgeries, the wait can be a little time depending where you live, but if you're suspected of having something heinous you are usually taken care of promptly. Maybe the other big problem in some areas is finding a family doctor. Overall I'm pleased, I had a back strain a little while back, went to my family doc, had am ex ray, got a script and walked out costing nothing. Can't beat that...

When my daughter was born she had what ended up being some relatively minor health issues (at least compared to what other parents might have to go to), but they resulted in us having to take her to her peditrician at least four times within a week of getting out of the hospital. Plus I think it was 2 or 3 trips to children's hospital plus at least a couple of blood tests. It was super stressful, but I can't imagine how much more stressful it would have been knowing that at the end of all we would be expecting a bill for all the work, or even that we would have to deal with a private insurance company to get the costs reimbursed or whatever other red tape they might make you go through.

gimmesometruth27 · December 2011

cincybearcat wrote:

What the hell were they xraying a back strain for?

just to answer your question, you always x ray a back strain or injury for a few reasons. one, you are looking for any damage to the vertebrae such as an avulsion fracture of a transverse or spinous process. you are also looking for degenerative or arthritic changes to the vertebrae. you are also looking for forward slippage of the vertebrae which is called spondylolysthesis. lastly you are looking for space between the vertebrae, if there is decreased space between the vertebrae you can almost guarantee there is a disc issue like herniation or degeneration. x rays can also tell you if other tests like mri or ct scans are necessary. \

x rays are a lot more useful than people think and they are very cheep. that is why x rays are the first step in the orthopedic workup...

cincybearcat · December 2011

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

What the hell were they xraying a back strain for?

just to answer your question, you always x ray a back strain or injury for a few reasons. one, you are looking for any damage to the vertebrae such as an avulsion fracture of a transverse or spinous process. you are also looking for degenerative or arthritic changes to the vertebrae. you are also looking for forward slippage of the vertebrae which is called spondylolysthesis. lastly you are looking for space between the vertebrae, if there is decreased space between the vertebrae you can almost guarantee there is a disc issue like herniation or degeneration. x rays can also tell you if other tests like mri or ct scans are necessary. \

x rays are a lot more useful than people think and they are very cheep. that is why x rays are the first step in the orthopedic workup...

Again I was messing with him...but I did find this...

"X-Rays are very good at showing up bony problems; they are good for identifying fractures and dislocations. They are not good at identifying muscles and ligaments as these are not seen on X-ray. X-Rays are also not very good at showing discs, an X-ray will only show the space a disc occupies.Despite this X-Rays are very commonly used for lower back pain investigations."

Go Beavers · December 2011

EmBleve wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

I wouldn't mind seeing some references to what you said about illegals.

I do not know what MayDay is referring to, but I saw something a few months ago that exemplified this point (and I must admit, I was shocked). I live in an area where there is a large population of illegal immigrants for tobacco farms, particularly in the summer time. There is a rural dental clinic on the outskirts of town; they were hanging flyers on stores in town for dental care for $10 a visit (xrays, fillings, cleanings) for 'migrants' (read: illegal immigrants). I was having dental problems at the time, and I called them and was told that I would not be eligible. :shock: True story.

I live in a area where there's dental provided at a clinic for low income people in general. Mayday's claim was that there is more of this kind of thing provided for illegals than non-illegals. I just wasn't so sure about that.

EmBleve · December 2011

Go Beavers wrote:

I live in a area where there's dental provided at a clinic for low income people in general. Mayday's claim was that there is more of this kind of thing provided for illegals than non-illegals. I just wasn't so sure about that.

I see.

My example wasn't for 'low income people in general', though, it was specific. But I would be interested to know also if it is provided more for illegals than for citizens.

Universal healthcare...lets discuss!

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