Why do we need to "believe" in God?

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

They too may ask to be shown and may be given their proof in this life or on the journey.

...
Ask what? To be shown?
I've tried that... I must be asking the wrong question.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

and what about the others who ask to be shown, and they are ignored? are they not worthy enough of this enlightenment?

BinauralJam

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

and what about the others who ask to be shown, and they are ignored? are they not worthy enough of this enlightenment?

You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you just might find
You get what you need

dasvidana

I think this conversation mirrors the conflict between objectivists and subjectivists. Objectivists claim that there is a truth and through empirical science, we come to know it. Subjectivists claim that truth is interpretive so that one person's truth may be completely different than someone else's. So I think those of you who are critical of Pandora's position are thinking like objectivists. Is it not possible that she knows what she knows, even though what she knows may apply only to her?

Cosmo

dasvidana wrote:

I think this conversation mirrors the conflict between objectivists and subjectivists. Objectivists claim that there is a truth and through empirical science, we come to know it. Subjectivists claim that truth is interpretive so that one person's truth may be completely different than someone else's. So I think those of you who are critical of Pandora's position are thinking like objectivists. Is it not possible that she knows what she knows, even though what she knows may apply only to her?

...
Yes... that is it.
Like, there is an objective answer to the question, 'Is there a God?'. Yes or No. But, most answer, 'I don't know'' simply because that is the truth.. we just don't know.
Someone who answers Yes or No comes into question because there is no proof to back up their answers. Since the absence of proof that God does or does not exist does not prove She does or does not exist... the Yes or No answer is subjective.
But, there is an objective truth... God exists or God does not exist. As mere mortal humans, we can't know the truth.
Again, no one denies Pandora of her subjective truth... it's the basic premise that she, as one of us mere mortals, knows the objective truth... that is what we reject. We reject it because we've heard it hundreds of times in our live... sometime by some very unsavory people (David Koresh, Usama bin Laden, Muqtada Al Sadr, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Charles Manson, etc...). Accepting Pandora's doctrine would mean we accept those individual's doctrines, too.

Jeanwah

Cosmo wrote:

dasvidana wrote:

I think this conversation mirrors the conflict between objectivists and subjectivists. Objectivists claim that there is a truth and through empirical science, we come to know it. Subjectivists claim that truth is interpretive so that one person's truth may be completely different than someone else's. So I think those of you who are critical of Pandora's position are thinking like objectivists. Is it not possible that she knows what she knows, even though what she knows may apply only to her?

...
Yes... that is it.
Like, there is an objective answer to the question, 'Is there a God?'. Yes or No. But, most answer, 'I don't know'' simply because that is the truth.. we just don't know.
Someone who answers Yes or No comes into question because there is no proof to back up their answers. Since the absence of proof that God does or does not exist does not prove She does or does not exist... the Yes or No answer is subjective.
But, there is an objective truth... God exists or God does not exist. As mere mortal humans, we can't know the truth.
Again, no one denies Pandora of her subjective truth... it's the basic premise that she, as one of us mere mortals, knows the objective truth... that is what we reject. We reject it because we've heard it hundreds of times in our live... sometime by some very unsavory people (David Koresh, Usama bin Laden, Muqtada Al Sadr, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Charles Manson, etc...). Accepting Pandora's doctrine would mean we accept those individual's doctrines, too.

You forgot my favorite, Jim Jones.
Are you placing Pandora into the list of insane people?
I think it's fair to say these people placed their beliefs higher than reality itself, making them, yes, insane. If one can keep their subjectivist beliefs in check with reality, they're not really harmful to society, unlike those examples you mentioned.

Cosmo

Jeanwah wrote:

You forgot my favorite, Jim Jones.
Are you placing Pandora into the list of insane people?
I think it's fair to say these people placed their beliefs higher than reality itself, making them, yes, insane. If one can keep their subjectivist beliefs in check with reality, they're not really harmful to society, unlike those examples you mentioned.

...
No. Because I am sure there are some very nice people who adhere to that same doctrine.
I use the extreme examples because those are the most easily recognised by most people and why we would reject their claims of knowing God. Like Koresh (and Jim Jones) had many followers that believed that those guy really knew God.
I just can't think of others... admirable people... that make that claim.
...
P.S. If Eddie Vedder said he knew God... I would reject his doctrine, too.

dasvidana

Cosmo, aren't you the one implying that Pandora's position is an objective one? I don't want to speak for her, but maybe she is of the mind that her knowledge is hers and hers alone and that everyone else can know (or not know) what they want to.

Jeanwah

dasvidana wrote:

Cosmo, aren't you the one implying that Pandora's position is an objective one? I don't want to speak for her, but maybe she is of the mind that her knowledge is hers and hers alone and that everyone else can know (or not know) what they want to.

But don't you think that if Pandora talks about "knowing God" in every post (which she has), you'd think that she wouldn't be so closed off to answering a few questions by Cosmo and others who are simply looking for some answers. How can one go on and on about being "in the know", yet shut off and resort to insults when someone asks for more information? It's not reasonable!

Cosmo

dasvidana wrote:

Cosmo, aren't you the one implying that Pandora's position is an objective one? I don't want to speak for her, but maybe she is of the mind that her knowledge is hers and hers alone and that everyone else can know (or not know) what they want to.

...
Well... I suppose it is does fall within the realm of possibility... because anything is possible (like my cat understanding cosmological origins of the Universe and conveying the validity of the God Concept)... That maybe Pandora DOES actually know God... objectively. That would be a rare and extrordinary possibility that places her in the same company of Mother Mary and Jesus... Moses and... well, that's it. Those 3 and Pandora.
Then, there is the realm of probability... where my cat understands the sound of her Friskies being opened and probably hasn't a clue who God is (or isn't).

pandora

You guys, oh my gosh, funny, I always thought the PJ community rules...
very entertaining. I bet people are enjoying this one
That is a good thing.

I laughed my arse off here but I mean that in a good way
just so no one thinks I am being condescending or arrogant.

Who would have thought something I said like I know God would cause all this attention.
This must have been quite the challenge. I am honestly surprised, my experience with God
and what I am left with, causes such a stir.

Should we recap ... I guess I am now perhaps insane,
paired in a group of a few who have taken horrible advantage of others
in their lifetimes among other things....
and I guess I hear voices, though I have never claimed to speak with God
and I am a prophet or in the same class as blessed religious figures :?
alrighty then. Is this how rumors start?

I am just me, Pandora

Actually if I didn't know better I would think those saying these things
are biased .... wait....
is that subjective or objective...better check my notes.

My father was a renowned inventor who dreamed his inventions, my mother had an active
sixth sense, uncanny. I am the last lovely product of them, guess this is what you get.
Reaching my early adulthood in the 70's well, I got some vibe pick up going on.

If you think I would share my deepest most intimate honest being with the vibes I have here ...
well, I'm blonde but not that blonde.

I have explained and repeatedly said what I feel and why I am not sharing.
I am sorry that is not enough for some but it is all I will give.

When I say in the future, I know God, which you know I will, cause I do,
you all can say ....

been there done that...got the t-shirt!

Bless the wise here you are a joy, the feeling, I felt it in your words,
went straight away to fill my heart.
A full heart...now that is living!

And a good night to all

oh and I know Santa too just kidding couldn't resist

A sense of humor will get you through the most trying stressful times in life

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

Who would have thought something I said like I know God would cause all this attention.
This must have been quite the challenge. I am honestly surprised, my experience with God
and what I am left with, causes such a stir.

unfortantely, this is a recurring theme with you it seems.......taking some sick pride in stirring shit up.

see ya. :?

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

You guys, oh my gosh, funny, I always thought the PJ community rules... very entertaining. I bet people are enjoying this one That is a good thing.
I laughed my arse off here but I mean that in a good way just so no one thinks I am being condescending or arrogant.
Who would have thought something I said like I know God would cause all this attention.
This must have been quite the challenge. I am honestly surprised, my experience with God and what I am left with, causes such a stir.
Should we recap ... I guess I am now perhaps insane, paired in a group of a few who have taken horrible advantage of others in their lifetimes among other things....and I guess I hear voices, though I have never claimed to speak with God and I am a prophet or in the same class as blessed religious figures :? alrighty then. Is this how rumors start?
I am just me, Pandora
Actually if I didn't know better I would think those saying these things are biased .... wait.... is that subjective or objective...better check my notes.
My father was a renowned inventor who dreamed his inventions, my mother had an activesixth sense, uncanny. I am the last lovely product of them, guess this is what you get. reaching my early adulthood in the 70's well, I got some vibe pick up going on.If you think I would share my deepest most intimate honest being with the vibes I have here ... well, I'm blonde but not that blonde.
I have explained and repeatedly said what I feel and why I am not sharing.I am sorry that is not enough for some but it is all I will give.
When I say in the future, I know God, which you know I will, cause I do, you all can say ....been there done that...got the t-shirt.
Bless the wise here you are a joy, the feeling, I felt it in your words,went straight away to fill my heart.
A full heart...now that is living!And a good night to all
oh and I know Santa too just kidding couldn't resist
A sense of humor will get you through the most trying stressful times in life

..
If you need an example of what condescending or arrogant is... read the above message.
...
The true character of a person is not in what they tell you about themselves... it is found in the words of what others tell you about them.

Jeanwah

Cosmo wrote:

...
The true character of a person is not in what they tell you about themselves... it is found in the words of what others tell you about them.

Ain't that the truth.

pandora

I am blessed with lovely words and love from many people here and in my life.

If a life was to be judged .....
'It is not how much one loves but how much they are loved by others'

I totally agree

I'm thinking Pearl Jam has had quite a life!

Hugh Freaking Dillon

pandora wrote:

If a life was to be judged .....
'It is not how much one loves but how much they are loved by others'

I totally agree

so a good life is measured as a popularity contest. good to know.

pandora

How much one is loved by others is the sign of the love given, the hearts touched,
by that one.

"And he still gives his love, he just gives it away
The love he receives is the love that is saved"

our love is ours to keep

Byrnzie

I've lost count of the amount of times I've puked into my mouth reading this thread.

mickeyrat

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pandora wrote:

If a life was to be judged .....
'It is not how much one loves but how much they are loved by others'

I totally agree

so a good life is measured as a popularity contest. good to know.

Yeah, you could be loved by the rest of the planet and have been a miserable fuck. I thnk the reverse of Pandora's statement is true.

I think the majority the most profoundly powerful acts of love are not preformed for public consumption or known in that way. To me those are the ones that count.

To me the point of love and loving isnt in the return of it , nice as that feels, its in the giving.

Jeanwah

mickeyrat wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

pandora wrote:

If a life was to be judged .....
'It is not how much one loves but how much they are loved by others'

I totally agree

so a good life is measured as a popularity contest. good to know.

Yeah, you could be loved by the rest of the planet and have been a miserable fuck. I thnk the reverse of Pandora's statement is true.

I think the majority the most profoundly powerful acts of love are not preformed for public consumption or known in that way. To me those are the ones that count.

To me the point of love and loving isnt in the return of it , nice as that feels, its in the giving.

Absolutely. Pandora has no clue here. And life is not meant to be judged neither. WTF?