Anyways, my point is don't try to paint a picture where the band has somehow forced you into a corner and you had no choice but to illegally acquire the videos. You decided you wanted the videos, and wanted them "Right Now", and were somehow entitled to them on that basis, so you went online and took what you wanted. Regardless how you justify it, it wasn't "right" and it wasn't "legal". I'm saying you need to man up and admit to that. These people that "pirate" content and then somehow make Themselves seem like victims are pathetic. How about a little accountability for your actions? I'm talking you and everyone like you, not just you in particular here, not singling you out.
Thats 4 cents now I believe.
db
And yet you totally ignored my point, the band on numerous other occasions have ok'd the fans to download their material when it wasnt available for purchase any longer. Why is this time different, or why should it be different?
Case and point. Is this ok? If people didnt buy them when they were available they should just be out of luck like those of us without the PJ20 blu-ray, unless of course they can trade or buy used the hard copy. This is just as "right" and "legal" as downloading the blu-ray extras, yet this is acceptable....
Poor Cameron Crowe, will nobody think of Cameron Crowe?
If Cameron Crowe were thinking of his fans, he would not have released that Blu-Ray in the state it was in to start. Worst Blu-Ray transfer I've seen yet; amateur-ish at best.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Anyways, my point is don't try to paint a picture where the band has somehow forced you into a corner and you had no choice but to illegally acquire the videos. You decided you wanted the videos, and wanted them "Right Now", and were somehow entitled to them on that basis, so you went online and took what you wanted. Regardless how you justify it, it wasn't "right" and it wasn't "legal". I'm saying you need to man up and admit to that. These people that "pirate" content and then somehow make Themselves seem like victims are pathetic. How about a little accountability for your actions? I'm talking you and everyone like you, not just you in particular here, not singling you out.
Thats 4 cents now I believe.
db
And yet you totally ignored my point, the band on numerous other occasions have ok'd the fans to download their material when it wasnt available for purchase any longer. Why is this time different, or why should it be different?
Case and point. Is this ok? If people didnt buy them when they were available they should just be out of luck like those of us without the PJ20 blu-ray, unless of course they can trade or buy used the hard copy. This is just as "right" and "legal" as downloading the blu-ray extras, yet this is acceptable....
Anyways, my point is don't try to paint a picture where the band has somehow forced you into a corner and you had no choice but to illegally acquire the videos. You decided you wanted the videos, and wanted them "Right Now", and were somehow entitled to them on that basis, so you went online and took what you wanted. Regardless how you justify it, it wasn't "right" and it wasn't "legal". I'm saying you need to man up and admit to that. These people that "pirate" content and then somehow make Themselves seem like victims are pathetic. How about a little accountability for your actions? I'm talking you and everyone like you, not just you in particular here, not singling you out.
Thats 4 cents now I believe.
db
And yet you totally ignored my point, the band on numerous other occasions have ok'd the fans to download their material when it wasnt available for purchase any longer. Why is this time different, or why should it be different?
Case and point. Is this ok? If people didnt buy them when they were available they should just be out of luck like those of us without the PJ20 blu-ray, unless of course they can trade or buy used the hard copy. This is just as "right" and "legal" as downloading the blu-ray extras, yet this is acceptable....
Like I said if the band would have acted differently in the past I wouldn't have downloaded the discs.
I didn't ignore your point. I'm waiting for you to prove it. Please post a link to somewhere the band gives an official statement giving people permission to ignore the copyright they hold on the material present on these blu ray and DVD special edition disks and download at will. If there is no such statement, then you are inferring this for your own benefit, I.e. trying to justify your illegal actions. Do you understand? There is no legal or moral justification for what you have done. Period. I'm asking you to man up and accept that.
My respect goes out in a big way to all the people in this thread who so clearly and dearly want this content, and yet have enough respect for the band and for copyright law and for their own dignity to curb their own desire and wait until they can acquire it legally.
My respect goes out in a big way to all the people in this thread who so clearly and dearly want this content, and yet have enough respect for the band and for copyright law and for their own dignity to curb their own desire and wait until they can acquire it legally.
db
You know what? Fuck that. The whole copyright issue is bullshit and you need to come off your high horse a bit. People would buy this item if it were available. It is not, hence I don't blame people one bit for seeking alternate methods of obtaining this.
Holding nonscarce data as if it were a scarce resource is the old school mentality that is killing the major record labels right now. People can blame lost sales on piracy all they want but the fact of the matter is there are competing alternatives that the industry has been slow to adjust to (i.e. digital distribution) and not every pirated item can be equated to a lost sale in a 1:1 ratio. This isn't really about that though, this is more about an entity actually refusing to continue to sell a product that they have in the past, which they have every right to. This actually speaks volumes to the fact that lost sales is not something that concerns them. If it did, there would be a way to actually purchase the content.
I'm not saying anyone is obligated to sell something that was up for sale previously, but to act offended when those who desire said product find alternative means to actually see it because there is no other option is a bit pompous. Saying people should just "wait" for the unknown to occur is elitism and only serves to make you feel better than others because you have some sort of arbitrarily self defined concept of what is "moral" and what you consider "dignity".
Really interesting debate here. I am loving this. Not too often we get very well thought out discussion like this. I just hope it doesn't degrade into something that gets this glorious and important thread locked.
My respect goes out in a big way to all the people in this thread who so clearly and dearly want this content, and yet have enough respect for the band and for copyright law and for their own dignity to curb their own desire and wait until they can acquire it legally.
db
You know what? Fuck that. The whole copyright issue is bullshit and you need to come off your high horse a bit. People would buy this item if it were available. It is not, hence I don't blame people one bit for seeking alternate methods of obtaining this.
Holding nonscarce data as if it were a scarce resource is the old school mentality that is killing the major record labels right now. People can blame lost sales on piracy all they want but the fact of the matter is there are competing alternatives that the industry has been slow to adjust to (i.e. digital distribution) and not every pirated item can be equated to a lost sale in a 1:1 ratio. This isn't really about that though, this is more about an entity actually refusing to continue to sell a product that they have in the past, which they have every right to. This actually speaks volumes to the fact that lost sales is not something that concerns them. If it did, there would be a way to actually purchase the content.
I'm not saying anyone is obligated to sell something that was up for sale previously, but to act offended when those who desire said product find alternative means to actually see it because there is no other option is a bit pompous. Saying people should just "wait" for the unknown to occur is elitism and only serves to make you feel better than others because you have some sort of arbitrarily self defined concept of what is "moral" and what you consider "dignity".
As someone who works in the publishing industry, I definitely find "the whole copyright issue" very important, not bullshit. However, I also think that others should work on minding their own business... If someone wants to download illegal copies of the PJ20 limited edition extras, I don't understand why some other random should give a shit. Like, do you work in the PJ copyright division? Legal department? Oh, you don't? Well, then maybe lay off and let the guy do what he wants without you trying (unsuccessfully) to teach him a lesson or whatever the fuck it is you're trying to do. I think it is VERY safe to say that the PJ organization knows full well that by making this material limited they are setting the product up for copyright infringement. It's an absolute given. If they want to deal with that fact, then great. If not, even better. I don't understand the e-tongue lashing being doled out to this person, who is doing something pretty expected.
Me, I'm still holding out hope for a re-release of the PJ20 Special Edition DVD... But I also do not expect to go the rest of my life never watching the bonus material if they don't re-release it. I think that making it limited was a really stupid decision, and completely pointless. Just opens the door not only to inevitable copyright infringement, but also to people making OUTRAGEOUS profits on eBay, etc, while giving absolutely NO benefit to the PJ organization... On the contrary. They would still be raking in the dough if the version was still available. I don't get it at all. In this case, Pearl Jam has done its fans a great disservice in making what should be readily accessible limited. Most DVDs have tons of extra material. That it's not standard for this movie is just a rip off. Especially since the main thing the fans want - The Fans Are Alright - is all about THEM. Yet so many of those very people aren't able to own the damn thing. It's really stupid... Unless, of course, there is some sort of plan to release just the bonus material to 10C members sometime, like, I dunno, as the annual gift or whatever. You never know. As I said, because it seems so unreasonable, and I don't know PJ/Ten Club to generally be unreasonable, I still hold out hope enough not to break any laws ... yet.
But in the end, this was just a bad call. These things aren't even numbered I heard!! Not like it's colored vinyl or something. It's just bonus material for a movie. What in the hell is wrong with just letting everyone have something easily for once? Inconsiderate.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
As someone who works in the publishing industry, I definitely find "the whole copyright issue" very important, not bullshit. However, I also think that others should work on minding their own business... If someone wants to download illegal copies of the PJ20 limited edition extras, I don't understand why some other random should give a shit. Like, do you work in the PJ copyright division? Legal department? Oh, you don't? Well, then maybe lay off and let the guy do what he wants without you trying (unsuccessfully) to teach him a lesson or whatever the fuck it is you're trying to do. I think it is VERY safe to say that the PJ organization knows full well that by making this material limited they are setting the product up for copyright infringement. It's an absolute given. If they want to deal with that fact, then great. If not, even better. I don't understand the e-tongue lashing being doled out to this person, who is doing something pretty expected.
Me, I'm still holding out hope for a re-release of the PJ20 Special Edition DVD... But I also do not expect to go the rest of my life never watching the bonus material if they don't re-release it. I think that making it limited was a really stupid decision, and completely pointless. Just opens the door not only to inevitable copyright infringement, but also to people making OUTRAGEOUS profits on eBay, etc, while giving absolutely NO benefit to the PJ organization... On the contrary. They would still be raking in the dough if the version was still available. I don't get it at all. In this case, Pearl Jam has done its fans a great disservice in making what should be readily accessible limited. Most DVDs have tons of extra material. That it's not standard for this movie is just a rip off. Especially since the main thing the fans want - The Fans Are Alright - is all about THEM. Yet so many of those very people aren't able to own the damn thing. It's really stupid... Unless, of course, there is some sort of plan to release just the bonus material to 10C members sometime, like, I dunno, as the annual gift or whatever. You never know. As I said, because it seems so unreasonable, and I don't know PJ/Ten Club to generally be unreasonable, I still hold out hope enough not to break any laws ... yet.
But in the end, this was just a bad call. These things aren't even numbered I heard!! Not like it's colored vinyl or something. It's just bonus material for a movie. What in the hell is wrong with just letting everyone have something easily for once? Inconsiderate.
I agree with most of what you are saying; however, I still feel the same about copyrights. Maybe if they were still used as intended when first put in place I'd have more of a tendancy to agree with you completely but, the way I see it, is copyrights (and patents too) have morphed into a tool used more as protectionism of the current industries. I see this as stifling to the market and potential innovation.
As someone who works in the publishing industry, I definitely find "the whole copyright issue" very important, not bullshit. However, I also think that others should work on minding their own business... If someone wants to download illegal copies of the PJ20 limited edition extras, I don't understand why some other random should give a shit. Like, do you work in the PJ copyright division? Legal department? Oh, you don't? Well, then maybe lay off and let the guy do what he wants without you trying (unsuccessfully) to teach him a lesson or whatever the fuck it is you're trying to do. I think it is VERY safe to say that the PJ organization knows full well that by making this material limited they are setting the product up for copyright infringement. It's an absolute given. If they want to deal with that fact, then great. If not, even better. I don't understand the e-tongue lashing being doled out to this person, who is doing something pretty expected.
Me, I'm still holding out hope for a re-release of the PJ20 Special Edition DVD... But I also do not expect to go the rest of my life never watching the bonus material if they don't re-release it. I think that making it limited was a really stupid decision, and completely pointless. Just opens the door not only to inevitable copyright infringement, but also to people making OUTRAGEOUS profits on eBay, etc, while giving absolutely NO benefit to the PJ organization... On the contrary. They would still be raking in the dough if the version was still available. I don't get it at all. In this case, Pearl Jam has done its fans a great disservice in making what should be readily accessible limited. Most DVDs have tons of extra material. That it's not standard for this movie is just a rip off. Especially since the main thing the fans want - The Fans Are Alright - is all about THEM. Yet so many of those very people aren't able to own the damn thing. It's really stupid... Unless, of course, there is some sort of plan to release just the bonus material to 10C members sometime, like, I dunno, as the annual gift or whatever. You never know. As I said, because it seems so unreasonable, and I don't know PJ/Ten Club to generally be unreasonable, I still hold out hope enough not to break any laws ... yet.
But in the end, this was just a bad call. These things aren't even numbered I heard!! Not like it's colored vinyl or something. It's just bonus material for a movie. What in the hell is wrong with just letting everyone have something easily for once? Inconsiderate.
I agree with most of what you are saying; however, I still feel the same about copyrights. Maybe if they were still used as intended when first put in place I'd have more of a tendancy to agree with you completely but, the way I see it, is copyrights (and patents too) have morphed into a tool used more as protectionism of the current industries. I see this as stifling to the market and potential innovation.
When it comes down to it, copyright laws were intended to keep people from profiting off of other people's work, as well as to keep people from using other people's work in a way unbefitting the originator's intentions. You're right... In this case, someone illegally downloading the material simply because they want to see it but have not been allowed by the originators to acquire it for no apparent reason (other than maybe some kind of snobby mindset bent towards making everything limited just so they can feel special???) seems pretty tame to me. I don't really blame you. Not like you're selling it (are you? because that would be a WHOLE other story!). HOWEVER, that original intention of copyright laws is VERY important, so in the end the violation of these laws generally concerns me... But, well, they say that the law is black and white. Perhaps. But what is right and wrong or fair or unfair isn't. And that comes down to personal decisions ... and that's why I don't know why anyone thinks it's their business to tell you whether or not you ought to be downloading shit from Torrent! If the authorities care and want to do something about it, that's one thing... but citizens running around someone not to download a movie for personal viewing at no risk to the integrity of the work and without profit, or not to smoke a joint, or not to drink on the beach or ride a bike without a helmet? I say fuck off.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Wow man, that devolved pretty quickly. I think maybe most of you guys that really flew off the handle with "high horses" and obscenities likely didn't read my original post, nor try to understand the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to instigate an argument on copyright reform, or give anyone a "tongue lashing". I was not judging anyone on what they do (although lots of short tempered d-bags were quick to judge me for speaking my mind... Fuck off indeed).
The only point I was trying to make was that if someone is going to download content illegally, just do it and accept that you did it. Don't try and make it seem like the band forced you to do it, and you're somehow a victim. That was my point.
I've illegally downloaded a ton of stuff over the last 15 or so years. I've done it for my own reasons, and I accept it. I don't try and say I was forced into it by some other party's unjust behavior.
Do you honestly not grasp how simple a point it is I'm trying to make? Don't blame others for your actions. Why does that put so many on the defensive?
Wow man, that devolved pretty quickly. I think maybe most of you guys that really flew off the handle with "high horses" and obscenities likely didn't read my original post, nor try to understand the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to instigate an argument on copyright reform, or give anyone a "tongue lashing". I was not judging anyone on what they do (although lots of short tempered d-bags were quick to judge me for speaking my mind... Fuck off indeed).
The only point I was trying to make was that if someone is going to download content illegally, just do it and accept that you did it. Don't try and make it seem like the band forced you to do it, and you're somehow a victim. That was my point.
I've illegally downloaded a ton of stuff over the last 15 or so years. I've done it for my own reasons, and I accept it. I don't try and say I was forced into it by some other party's unjust behavior.
Do you honestly not grasp how simple a point it is I'm trying to make? Don't blame others for your actions. Why does that put so many on the defensive?
db
I wasn't telling you to fuck off. I meant citizens who bother those just doing their thing without hurting anyone... You actually do seem to be on your own high horse though... :? And you did seem to be lecturing the other dude, which is probably why he got so defensive. No one likes to feel like they're being lectured. Anyway, I'm just expressing my opinion about the whole thing; I'd never tell any specific person on this forum to fuck off. That's rude. So if it came off that way (and I can see why you'd think that), sorry about that.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Wow man, that devolved pretty quickly. I think maybe most of you guys that really flew off the handle with "high horses" and obscenities likely didn't read my original post, nor try to understand the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to instigate an argument on copyright reform, or give anyone a "tongue lashing". I was not judging anyone on what they do (although lots of short tempered d-bags were quick to judge me for speaking my mind... Fuck off indeed).
The only point I was trying to make was that if someone is going to download content illegally, just do it and accept that you did it. Don't try and make it seem like the band forced you to do it, and you're somehow a victim. That was my point.
I've illegally downloaded a ton of stuff over the last 15 or so years. I've done it for my own reasons, and I accept it. I don't try and say I was forced into it by some other party's unjust behavior.
Do you honestly not grasp how simple a point it is I'm trying to make? Don't blame others for your actions. Why does that put so many on the defensive?
db
db,
At first glance, I think it would be easy to mistake the tone of your posts as judgmental, so thank you for clarifying with this post.
I encourage anyone to look at this comic strip - http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones. My point is, if there is demand for a product, and its supplier does not give the customer an easy (or in this case, ANY) means of obtaining said product, and furthermore ignores requests about its eventual availability, who is really in the wrong if the collective 'Pearl Jam fan' seeks other channels to obtain the content?
What amazes me, really, is the pure dedication of some in this community. Call it naive or commendable - I don't care which - but the fact that people here are emailing the organization, asking when they might be given the opportunity to hand their money over to 10C in exchange for a product currently out-of-print and available all over the place online free of charge - is a pretty wild phenomena. How many businesses would beg for this relationship with their customers?
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Wow man, that devolved pretty quickly. I think maybe most of you guys that really flew off the handle with "high horses" and obscenities likely didn't read my original post, nor try to understand the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to instigate an argument on copyright reform, or give anyone a "tongue lashing". I was not judging anyone on what they do (although lots of short tempered d-bags were quick to judge me for speaking my mind... Fuck off indeed).
The only point I was trying to make was that if someone is going to download content illegally, just do it and accept that you did it. Don't try and make it seem like the band forced you to do it, and you're somehow a victim. That was my point.
I've illegally downloaded a ton of stuff over the last 15 or so years. I've done it for my own reasons, and I accept it. I don't try and say I was forced into it by some other party's unjust behavior.
Do you honestly not grasp how simple a point it is I'm trying to make? Don't blame others for your actions. Why does that put so many on the defensive?
db
db,
At first glance, I think it would be easy to mistake the tone of your posts as judgmental, so thank you for clarifying with this post.
I encourage anyone to look at this comic strip - http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones. My point is, if there is demand for a product, and its supplier does not give the customer an easy (or in this case, ANY) means of obtaining said product, and furthermore ignores requests about its eventual availability, who is really in the wrong if the collective 'Pearl Jam fan' seeks other channels to obtain the content?
What amazes me, really, is the pure dedication of some in this community. Call it naive or commendable - I don't care which - but the fact that people here are emailing the organization, asking when they might be given the opportunity to hand their money over to 10C in exchange for a product currently out-of-print and available all over the place online free of charge - is a pretty wild phenomena. How many businesses would beg for this relationship with their customers?
You've got a point... I'm waiting, because I want to legitimately buy it from 10C. I could have it right now if I wanted, but I want to respect Pearl Jam and 10C, and do so as much as I can (good thing they're all good with audio file sharing though... as far as I can tell, anyway).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
When I was little, I loved Quake cereal. Then the Quaker Oats Company stopped making it. I would love to have a bowl of Quake right now. I'd love to be able to stop at the grocery store on the way home and get some. Ain't gonna happen. BUT, if someone I knew figured out a way to make an exact copy of Quake cereal and offered to give me a bowl, I'd get my milk and spoon and be all over that shit. Yet, I still like and respect the Quaker Oats company and buy many of their other products.
Pearl Jam, please don't be like the Quaker Oats Company. Make some more Quake...er, I mean blu-rays..
Wow man, that devolved pretty quickly. I think maybe most of you guys that really flew off the handle with "high horses" and obscenities likely didn't read my original post, nor try to understand the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to instigate an argument on copyright reform, or give anyone a "tongue lashing". I was not judging anyone on what they do (although lots of short tempered d-bags were quick to judge me for speaking my mind... Fuck off indeed).
The only point I was trying to make was that if someone is going to download content illegally, just do it and accept that you did it. Don't try and make it seem like the band forced you to do it, and you're somehow a victim. That was my point.
I've illegally downloaded a ton of stuff over the last 15 or so years. I've done it for my own reasons, and I accept it. I don't try and say I was forced into it by some other party's unjust behavior.
Do you honestly not grasp how simple a point it is I'm trying to make? Don't blame others for your actions. Why does that put so many on the defensive?
db
db,
At first glance, I think it would be easy to mistake the tone of your posts as judgmental, so thank you for clarifying with this post.
I encourage anyone to look at this comic strip - http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones. My point is, if there is demand for a product, and its supplier does not give the customer an easy (or in this case, ANY) means of obtaining said product, and furthermore ignores requests about its eventual availability, who is really in the wrong if the collective 'Pearl Jam fan' seeks other channels to obtain the content?
What amazes me, really, is the pure dedication of some in this community. Call it naive or commendable - I don't care which - but the fact that people here are emailing the organization, asking when they might be given the opportunity to hand their money over to 10C in exchange for a product currently out-of-print and available all over the place online free of charge - is a pretty wild phenomena. How many businesses would beg for this relationship with their customers?
We are in complete agreement here. I also shared that Oatmeal strip with friends and colleagues; it sums up the situation perfectly. My observation here is that as consumers we are not "owed" access to this content, we have merely decided that we "want" access to it.
I agree that it is foolish of the content owners to leave so much money on the table. Given how easy digital distribution is these days, it is a mystery as to why they do not take advantage of it. Look at Louis CK's recent adventure with his Live at the Beacon release. He made it easy and cheap, and the crowds responded.
And again, your final remark was what I was referring to when I said my respect goes out to those still waiting and working for LE PJ20. It would be so easy to just download it and not look back, but they don't. I respect that greatly. Stronger than I would be. They can hold their heads high. Ergo, dignity. Myself, I too often give in to instant gratification, but I accept that. I'm ok with it. No one's fault but mine.
When I was little, I loved Quake cereal. Quaker Oats stopped making it. I would love to have a bowl of Quake right now. I'd love to be able to stop at the grocery store on the way home and get some. Ain't gonna happen. BUT, if someone I knew figured out a way to make an exact copy of Quake cereal and offered to give me a bowl, I'd get my milk and spoon and be all over that shit.
Pearl Jam, please don't be like Quaker Oats.
LOL! I feel the same way about Pro-Stars and CP3O cereal!
Pretty sure they were the same cereal, just different boxes and shapes, lol. *Ahem, anyway, back to the point, and maybe this would be a fun thread somewhere else.
Yes, eventually, I will go about getting the bonus material anyway I can get it. But I've got patience left still.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I never said I was some kind of victim, all I said was if it was for sale I'd buy it, since it's not for sale I followed the past trend of how such things were allowed to be handled and followed suit. And because of this they lost a sale. I was willing to buy, quantity was limited, I still wanted to see it, so I downloaded it assuming it feel under the "Share the Jam" idea. It's that simple.
Until the anniversary set came out it was cool to trade/share the MTV unplugged audio and video around here, and PJ probably didnt even own the entire copyright, I'm guessing MTV had some say in that material. So again PJ has allowed fans to get their hands on their stuff that wasnt for sale. I keep giving examples and no one has been able to explain why I should feel like a thief for the PJ20 extras but not the other stuff.
Why should PJ20 extras be any different then everything else? Stone's fault?
Wow man, that devolved pretty quickly. I think maybe most of you guys that really flew off the handle with "high horses" and obscenities likely didn't read my original post, nor try to understand the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to instigate an argument on copyright reform, or give anyone a "tongue lashing". I was not judging anyone on what they do (although lots of short tempered d-bags were quick to judge me for speaking my mind... Fuck off indeed).
The only point I was trying to make was that if someone is going to download content illegally, just do it and accept that you did it. Don't try and make it seem like the band forced you to do it, and you're somehow a victim. That was my point.
I've illegally downloaded a ton of stuff over the last 15 or so years. I've done it for my own reasons, and I accept it. I don't try and say I was forced into it by some other party's unjust behavior.
Do you honestly not grasp how simple a point it is I'm trying to make? Don't blame others for your actions. Why does that put so many on the defensive?
db
db,
At first glance, I think it would be easy to mistake the tone of your posts as judgmental, so thank you for clarifying with this post.
I encourage anyone to look at this comic strip - http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones. My point is, if there is demand for a product, and its supplier does not give the customer an easy (or in this case, ANY) means of obtaining said product, and furthermore ignores requests about its eventual availability, who is really in the wrong if the collective 'Pearl Jam fan' seeks other channels to obtain the content?
What amazes me, really, is the pure dedication of some in this community. Call it naive or commendable - I don't care which - but the fact that people here are emailing the organization, asking when they might be given the opportunity to hand their money over to 10C in exchange for a product currently out-of-print and available all over the place online free of charge - is a pretty wild phenomena. How many businesses would beg for this relationship with their customers?
We are in complete agreement here. I also shared that Oatmeal strip with friends and colleagues; it sums up the situation perfectly. My observation here is that as consumers we are not "owed" access to this content, we have merely decided that we "want" access to it.
I agree that it is foolish of the content owners to leave so much money on the table. Given how easy digital distribution is these days, it is a mystery as to why they do not take advantage of it. Look at Louis CK's recent adventure with his Live at the Beacon release. He made it easy and cheap, and the crowds responded.
And again, your final remark was what I was referring to when I said my respect goes out to those still waiting and working for LE PJ20. It would be so easy to just download it and not look back, but they don't. I respect that greatly. Stronger than I would be. They can hold their heads high. Ergo, dignity. Myself, I too often give in to instant gratification, but I accept that. I'm ok with it. No one's fault but mine.
And benjis, thanks for the reply.
db
Glad you brought up the Louis CK Live at the Beacon release (which was such a beautiful premise that I absolutely had to buy, and am now a Louis CK fan). How easy it would be, I was thinking, for Ten Club to offer standard-definition downloads for the two bonus discs for a reasonable sum online. Since the regular version was $15-20 in stores, how about offering it through their site exclusively for $25 for the three discs in digital only versions? The FLAC bootlegs approach 1.5GB in size, so it is not such a stretch to suggest, I don't think.
dirtybob (and other posters in this thread), this has been a pleasure. It's refreshing to have a civil and informed conversation around here where people valid arguments with good points, and no one feels the need to e-scream at each other.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Poor Cameron Crowe, will nobody think of Cameron Crowe?
If Cameron Crowe were thinking of his fans, he would not have released that Blu-Ray in the state it was in to start. Worst Blu-Ray transfer I've seen yet; amateur-ish at best.
But u must think that the quality of the material was probably pretty crap to start with long time before
digital and HD video..especially the early band stuff
Poor Cameron Crowe, will nobody think of Cameron Crowe?
If Cameron Crowe were thinking of his fans, he would not have released that Blu-Ray in the state it was in to start. Worst Blu-Ray transfer I've seen yet; amateur-ish at best.
But u must think that the quality of the material was probably pretty crap to start with long time before
digital and HD video..especially the early band stuff
I'm more than willing to forgive poor source material from the beginning of the band's career. I understand 'film noise' and such being a by-product of lesser quality cameras. That being said, the poor quality I am referring to is the pixelation prevalent in most scenes in the film, which (please correct me if I'm wrong) appears when a poor-quality film-to-disc transfer is done.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
dirtybob (and other posters in this thread), this has been a pleasure. It's refreshing to have a civil and informed conversation around here where people valid arguments with good points, and no one feels the need to e-scream at each other.
Thanks for the great read with my morning coffee everyone, well done indeed!! Its so hard to not want everything from these guys. Most especially something made specifically with the fans in mind. Personally, I get alot of ribbing from a certain friend of mine about buying my music from I-tunes & not getting it 'free.' But with that said, I can't honestly say I don't own anything that is 'out there' if you look hard enough. A conundrum for sure. No other band on the planet offers fans more than PJ, but then, no other band has more to offer. Supporting these guys is a testimonial to how much dedication we have to them, as told by the amount of shelf-space/wall space dedicated to my stuff. No matter how many packages arrive at my door, I still get excited.
With that said, I'm sure they must be just as frustrated. I can't imagine how busy they must be. Touring together, alone, with their other projects, rehearsal time, new material, new album(hopefully soon), not to mention they all have lives. But, they could release something every day & we would want. There is an aweful lot of money going out fan-wise as well. Tickets for Europe, EV, 4 posters in under 2 weeks etc, not to mention all of us working on personal holy grails as well. What about Vault 1? Alpine? For every decision they make, a hundred things must be involved. I shall remain optimistic, try to be patient & have a firm belief that these guys know what they are doing, eternal optimist that I am
Oh, & this...
This is what I think is so great about being a PJ fan.
We are actually discussing copyrights... If this was a ... I don't know... Celine Dion forum (if that exists) people would just download the freaking thing and nobody would touch this subject. At least I guess that would be the case.
I am pretty sure all PJ members traded stuff and taped stuff when they were just ordinary teenagers. I POSITIVE they did it at least once in their lives. Some Kiss albums, The Who stuff. I am positive they did it. Of course since they were not in the internet age, we don't know how they would have behaved...
I don't have a reason to why I don't download stuff. Maybe because it is too impersonal maybe... That's the reason I asked for a fellow 10C fan to "tape" it for me. So now I have the 3 discs that were copied from a friend... just like most people would do in 70's, 80's and 90's.
Meu USD70 is still here waiting for the Blu Ray copy. If it is a crappy job on a transfer I will decide that myself. I have read poor reviews on what material that I think is OK. How on EARTH you want footage from a VHS-C tape of the 90's... that was probably stored in a box in a garage for 20 years to look good and Hi-Def. This is just plain stupid to request that. On the today material... it is just the band talking. What do you want? Inception like footage? Please.
Please reissue the damn thing... or come out and say you won't do it... like ever.
This is what I think is so great about being a PJ fan.
We are actually discussing copyrights... If this was a ... I don't know... Celine Dion forum (if that exists) people would just download the freaking thing and nobody would touch this subject. At least I guess that would be the case.
I am pretty sure all PJ members traded stuff and taped stuff when they were just ordinary teenagers. I POSITIVE they did it at least once in their lives. Some Kiss albums, The Who stuff. I am positive they did it. Of course since they were not in the internet age, we don't know how they would have behaved...
I don't have a reason to why I don't download stuff. Maybe because it is too impersonal maybe... That's the reason I asked for a fellow 10C fan to "tape" it for me. So now I have the 3 discs that were copied from a friend... just like most people would do in 70's, 80's and 90's.
Meu USD70 is still here waiting for the Blu Ray copy. If it is a crappy job on a transfer I will decide that myself. I have read poor reviews on what material that I think is OK. How on EARTH you want footage from a VHS-C tape of the 90's... that was probably stored in a box in a garage for 20 years to look good and Hi-Def. This is just plain stupid to request that. On the today material... it is just the band talking. What do you want? Inception like footage? Please.
Please reissue the damn thing... or come out and say you won't do it... like ever.
I wish my computer were Blu-Ray compatible so that I could give you specific examples of the poor transfer. Content like the NYC show from last year, a clearly professionally filmed video of Thumbing My Way, and footage from the Italian tour in '06 are notoriously bad - think YouTube standard definition footage stretched out on a large screen, complete with blocks of pixelated clusters, etc.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Comments
And yet you totally ignored my point, the band on numerous other occasions have ok'd the fans to download their material when it wasnt available for purchase any longer. Why is this time different, or why should it be different?
Case and point. Is this ok? If people didnt buy them when they were available they should just be out of luck like those of us without the PJ20 blu-ray, unless of course they can trade or buy used the hard copy. This is just as "right" and "legal" as downloading the blu-ray extras, yet this is acceptable....
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=183430&p=4250357
Like I said if the band would have acted differently in the past I wouldn't have downloaded the discs.
If Cameron Crowe were thinking of his fans, he would not have released that Blu-Ray in the state it was in to start. Worst Blu-Ray transfer I've seen yet; amateur-ish at best.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
That topic was locked... and there are other links within it that created security alerts on my computer.
I didn't ignore your point. I'm waiting for you to prove it. Please post a link to somewhere the band gives an official statement giving people permission to ignore the copyright they hold on the material present on these blu ray and DVD special edition disks and download at will. If there is no such statement, then you are inferring this for your own benefit, I.e. trying to justify your illegal actions. Do you understand? There is no legal or moral justification for what you have done. Period. I'm asking you to man up and accept that.
My respect goes out in a big way to all the people in this thread who so clearly and dearly want this content, and yet have enough respect for the band and for copyright law and for their own dignity to curb their own desire and wait until they can acquire it legally.
db
Holding nonscarce data as if it were a scarce resource is the old school mentality that is killing the major record labels right now. People can blame lost sales on piracy all they want but the fact of the matter is there are competing alternatives that the industry has been slow to adjust to (i.e. digital distribution) and not every pirated item can be equated to a lost sale in a 1:1 ratio. This isn't really about that though, this is more about an entity actually refusing to continue to sell a product that they have in the past, which they have every right to. This actually speaks volumes to the fact that lost sales is not something that concerns them. If it did, there would be a way to actually purchase the content.
I'm not saying anyone is obligated to sell something that was up for sale previously, but to act offended when those who desire said product find alternative means to actually see it because there is no other option is a bit pompous. Saying people should just "wait" for the unknown to occur is elitism and only serves to make you feel better than others because you have some sort of arbitrarily self defined concept of what is "moral" and what you consider "dignity".
As someone who works in the publishing industry, I definitely find "the whole copyright issue" very important, not bullshit. However, I also think that others should work on minding their own business... If someone wants to download illegal copies of the PJ20 limited edition extras, I don't understand why some other random should give a shit. Like, do you work in the PJ copyright division? Legal department? Oh, you don't? Well, then maybe lay off and let the guy do what he wants without you trying (unsuccessfully) to teach him a lesson or whatever the fuck it is you're trying to do. I think it is VERY safe to say that the PJ organization knows full well that by making this material limited they are setting the product up for copyright infringement. It's an absolute given. If they want to deal with that fact, then great. If not, even better. I don't understand the e-tongue lashing being doled out to this person, who is doing something pretty expected.
Me, I'm still holding out hope for a re-release of the PJ20 Special Edition DVD... But I also do not expect to go the rest of my life never watching the bonus material if they don't re-release it. I think that making it limited was a really stupid decision, and completely pointless. Just opens the door not only to inevitable copyright infringement, but also to people making OUTRAGEOUS profits on eBay, etc, while giving absolutely NO benefit to the PJ organization... On the contrary. They would still be raking in the dough if the version was still available. I don't get it at all. In this case, Pearl Jam has done its fans a great disservice in making what should be readily accessible limited. Most DVDs have tons of extra material. That it's not standard for this movie is just a rip off. Especially since the main thing the fans want - The Fans Are Alright - is all about THEM. Yet so many of those very people aren't able to own the damn thing. It's really stupid... Unless, of course, there is some sort of plan to release just the bonus material to 10C members sometime, like, I dunno, as the annual gift or whatever. You never know. As I said, because it seems so unreasonable, and I don't know PJ/Ten Club to generally be unreasonable, I still hold out hope enough not to break any laws ... yet.
But in the end, this was just a bad call. These things aren't even numbered I heard!! Not like it's colored vinyl or something. It's just bonus material for a movie. What in the hell is wrong with just letting everyone have something easily for once? Inconsiderate.
I agree with most of what you are saying; however, I still feel the same about copyrights. Maybe if they were still used as intended when first put in place I'd have more of a tendancy to agree with you completely but, the way I see it, is copyrights (and patents too) have morphed into a tool used more as protectionism of the current industries. I see this as stifling to the market and potential innovation.
When it comes down to it, copyright laws were intended to keep people from profiting off of other people's work, as well as to keep people from using other people's work in a way unbefitting the originator's intentions. You're right... In this case, someone illegally downloading the material simply because they want to see it but have not been allowed by the originators to acquire it for no apparent reason (other than maybe some kind of snobby mindset bent towards making everything limited just so they can feel special???) seems pretty tame to me. I don't really blame you. Not like you're selling it (are you? because that would be a WHOLE other story!). HOWEVER, that original intention of copyright laws is VERY important, so in the end the violation of these laws generally concerns me... But, well, they say that the law is black and white. Perhaps. But what is right and wrong or fair or unfair isn't. And that comes down to personal decisions ... and that's why I don't know why anyone thinks it's their business to tell you whether or not you ought to be downloading shit from Torrent! If the authorities care and want to do something about it, that's one thing... but citizens running around someone not to download a movie for personal viewing at no risk to the integrity of the work and without profit, or not to smoke a joint, or not to drink on the beach or ride a bike without a helmet? I say fuck off.
The only point I was trying to make was that if someone is going to download content illegally, just do it and accept that you did it. Don't try and make it seem like the band forced you to do it, and you're somehow a victim. That was my point.
I've illegally downloaded a ton of stuff over the last 15 or so years. I've done it for my own reasons, and I accept it. I don't try and say I was forced into it by some other party's unjust behavior.
Do you honestly not grasp how simple a point it is I'm trying to make? Don't blame others for your actions. Why does that put so many on the defensive?
db
I wasn't telling you to fuck off. I meant citizens who bother those just doing their thing without hurting anyone... You actually do seem to be on your own high horse though... :? And you did seem to be lecturing the other dude, which is probably why he got so defensive. No one likes to feel like they're being lectured. Anyway, I'm just expressing my opinion about the whole thing; I'd never tell any specific person on this forum to fuck off. That's rude. So if it came off that way (and I can see why you'd think that), sorry about that.
At first glance, I think it would be easy to mistake the tone of your posts as judgmental, so thank you for clarifying with this post.
I encourage anyone to look at this comic strip - http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones. My point is, if there is demand for a product, and its supplier does not give the customer an easy (or in this case, ANY) means of obtaining said product, and furthermore ignores requests about its eventual availability, who is really in the wrong if the collective 'Pearl Jam fan' seeks other channels to obtain the content?
What amazes me, really, is the pure dedication of some in this community. Call it naive or commendable - I don't care which - but the fact that people here are emailing the organization, asking when they might be given the opportunity to hand their money over to 10C in exchange for a product currently out-of-print and available all over the place online free of charge - is a pretty wild phenomena. How many businesses would beg for this relationship with their customers?
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
You've got a point... I'm waiting, because I want to legitimately buy it from 10C. I could have it right now if I wanted, but I want to respect Pearl Jam and 10C, and do so as much as I can (good thing they're all good with audio file sharing though... as far as I can tell, anyway).
Pearl Jam, please don't be like the Quaker Oats Company. Make some more Quake...er, I mean blu-rays..
We are in complete agreement here. I also shared that Oatmeal strip with friends and colleagues; it sums up the situation perfectly. My observation here is that as consumers we are not "owed" access to this content, we have merely decided that we "want" access to it.
I agree that it is foolish of the content owners to leave so much money on the table. Given how easy digital distribution is these days, it is a mystery as to why they do not take advantage of it. Look at Louis CK's recent adventure with his Live at the Beacon release. He made it easy and cheap, and the crowds responded.
And again, your final remark was what I was referring to when I said my respect goes out to those still waiting and working for LE PJ20. It would be so easy to just download it and not look back, but they don't. I respect that greatly. Stronger than I would be. They can hold their heads high. Ergo, dignity. Myself, I too often give in to instant gratification, but I accept that. I'm ok with it. No one's fault but mine.
And benjis, thanks for the reply.
db
LOL! I feel the same way about Pro-Stars and CP3O cereal!
Pretty sure they were the same cereal, just different boxes and shapes, lol. *Ahem, anyway, back to the point, and maybe this would be a fun thread somewhere else.
Yes, eventually, I will go about getting the bonus material anyway I can get it. But I've got patience left still.
Until the anniversary set came out it was cool to trade/share the MTV unplugged audio and video around here, and PJ probably didnt even own the entire copyright, I'm guessing MTV had some say in that material. So again PJ has allowed fans to get their hands on their stuff that wasnt for sale. I keep giving examples and no one has been able to explain why I should feel like a thief for the PJ20 extras but not the other stuff.
Why should PJ20 extras be any different then everything else? Stone's fault?
dirtybob (and other posters in this thread), this has been a pleasure. It's refreshing to have a civil and informed conversation around here where people valid arguments with good points, and no one feels the need to e-scream at each other.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
But u must think that the quality of the material was probably pretty crap to start with long time before
digital and HD video..especially the early band stuff
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Thanks for the great read with my morning coffee everyone, well done indeed!! Its so hard to not want everything from these guys. Most especially something made specifically with the fans in mind. Personally, I get alot of ribbing from a certain friend of mine about buying my music from I-tunes & not getting it 'free.' But with that said, I can't honestly say I don't own anything that is 'out there' if you look hard enough. A conundrum for sure. No other band on the planet offers fans more than PJ, but then, no other band has more to offer. Supporting these guys is a testimonial to how much dedication we have to them, as told by the amount of shelf-space/wall space dedicated to my stuff. No matter how many packages arrive at my door, I still get excited.
With that said, I'm sure they must be just as frustrated. I can't imagine how busy they must be. Touring together, alone, with their other projects, rehearsal time, new material, new album(hopefully soon), not to mention they all have lives. But, they could release something every day & we would want. There is an aweful lot of money going out fan-wise as well. Tickets for Europe, EV, 4 posters in under 2 weeks etc, not to mention all of us working on personal holy grails as well. What about Vault 1? Alpine? For every decision they make, a hundred things must be involved. I shall remain optimistic, try to be patient & have a firm belief that these guys know what they are doing, eternal optimist that I am
Oh, & this...
(Moar testicals
We are actually discussing copyrights... If this was a ... I don't know... Celine Dion forum (if that exists) people would just download the freaking thing and nobody would touch this subject. At least I guess that would be the case.
I am pretty sure all PJ members traded stuff and taped stuff when they were just ordinary teenagers. I POSITIVE they did it at least once in their lives. Some Kiss albums, The Who stuff. I am positive they did it. Of course since they were not in the internet age, we don't know how they would have behaved...
I don't have a reason to why I don't download stuff. Maybe because it is too impersonal maybe... That's the reason I asked for a fellow 10C fan to "tape" it for me. So now I have the 3 discs that were copied from a friend... just like most people would do in 70's, 80's and 90's.
Meu USD70 is still here waiting for the Blu Ray copy. If it is a crappy job on a transfer I will decide that myself. I have read poor reviews on what material that I think is OK. How on EARTH you want footage from a VHS-C tape of the 90's... that was probably stored in a box in a garage for 20 years to look good and Hi-Def. This is just plain stupid to request that. On the today material... it is just the band talking. What do you want? Inception like footage? Please.
Please reissue the damn thing... or come out and say you won't do it... like ever.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1