Chad,I'm digging your passion.Your in England right? You folks had some nice DP solutions for ages.Maybe a bit shy of fair trial stuff,but quick and efficient for sure. Why is guillotine not used anymore?
iowan-corn-shithead, at your service, rr165892. i've lived in washington 9 years or so but moved back here few years ago. never been to england
alice cooper made the guillotine fun
Sorry for confusion Chad,my bad. tornados ,silos,John Deere tractors and Corey Taylor .niceee So your a redneck,I get that I'm a southerner.
yes twisters, yes silos, yes john deere tractors & yes we have a slip knot. don't be sorry, it's all good. as a country guy i vote vigilante justice gosh darnit. who else is going to save ya? the law is not nearby... hello?! torture, rape & kill women & children for kicks? not a good plan when farmer john's trigger finger is itchy & doesn't care for the bullshit sick freaks do. this is good when you can take matters into your own hands. truth be known, the law gives out gold stars for being a stand up citizen, at least here in the farm country they do.
Isolate him from society and try to move on with life. There is plenty of tax money to afford it if we stop jailing drug offenders. It's a nominal fraction of what is spent on corporate welfare and war.
And should we tell the parents of the kids that too: "Just move on, man. Don't lie there at night thinking of that idiot with his fan club in prison. Just move on. Have another kid or something. Geez."
And how do we isolate him from society? He can remain behind bars, but his very existence places him among us. There are good people that have the job of cleaning his cell, preparing him meals, escorting him throughout the prison, and whatever other task he needs to spend his time behind bars.
Never forget that there have been- and always will be- episodes where killers kill behind bars. You can point to procedural failings if you wish to explain how these people were afforded another opportunity to take a life; however, if doing so... you would be remiss not to acknowledge that in these cases, the DP would have proven to be someone's salvation.
Isolate him from society and try to move on with life. There is plenty of tax money to afford it if we stop jailing drug offenders. It's a nominal fraction of what is spent on corporate welfare and war.
And should we tell the parents of the kids that too: "Just move on, man. Don't lie there at night thinking of that idiot with his fan club in prison. Just move on. Have another kid or something. Geez."
And how do we isolate him from society? He can remain behind bars, but his very existence places him among us. There are good people that have the job of cleaning his cell, preparing him meals, escorting him throughout the prison, and whatever other task he needs to spend his time behind bars.
Never forget that there have been- and always will be- episodes where killers kill behind bars. You can point to procedural failings if you wish to explain how these people were afforded another opportunity to take a life; however, if doing so... you would be remiss not to acknowledge that in these cases, the DP would have proven to be someone's salvation.
You don't know what the victims' families feel, that is pure projection. And, to boot, even if the majority felt the need for vengeance that wouldn't make it right.
Isolate him from society and try to move on with life. There is plenty of tax money to afford it if we stop jailing drug offenders. It's a nominal fraction of what is spent on corporate welfare and war.
And should we tell the parents of the kids that too: "Just move on, man. Don't lie there at night thinking of that idiot with his fan club in prison. Just move on. Have another kid or something. Geez."
And how do we isolate him from society? He can remain behind bars, but his very existence places him among us. There are good people that have the job of cleaning his cell, preparing him meals, escorting him throughout the prison, and whatever other task he needs to spend his time behind bars.
Never forget that there have been- and always will be- episodes where killers kill behind bars. You can point to procedural failings if you wish to explain how these people were afforded another opportunity to take a life; however, if doing so... you would be remiss not to acknowledge that in these cases, the DP would have proven to be someone's salvation.
You don't know what the victims' families feel, that is pure projection. And, to boot, even if the majority felt the need for vengeance that wouldn't make it right.
According to what you think and your values. Others feel differently though. Neither side is definitively 'right', but with that said... I'm certainly not going to concede I'm wrong.
And call it what you want, but I have a pretty good idea what the families feel. Their grief is splashed all over media pages- not to mention the fact that if some of these stories hit us- people far removed from the crime- in the guts... it's likely 1,000X worse for those living the experience. To illustrate what I mean... look what these stories do to poor Chadwick. He spends the majority of his time in the Poetry section of this band's website. In many threads, he speaks of the world and the beauty one can find within it. Yet, hearing of the senseless and savage crimes described in this thread (and some others)... he goes on an emotion driven tirade that belies his true character.
Don't try to underestimate the depths of the grieving parents. Their pain is profound and to not acknowledge their pain- like your words seemed to do- places you way off base.
My family has been unlucky with murder. My uncle was murdered, and my brother took his own life after 8 years in solitary confinement for a murder of which he was falsely convicted. I speak from a place of understanding pain, and knowing the value of moving past it. Punishments don't bring a victim back, and they are little to no solace for those picking up the pieces.
My family has been unlucky with murder. My uncle was murdered, and my brother took his own life after 8 years in solitary confinement for a murder of which he was falsely convicted. I speak from a place of understanding pain, and knowing the value of moving past it. Punishments don't bring a victim back, and they are little to no solace for those picking up the pieces.
I'm really sorry to hear of your brother (and your uncle).
I completely understand why you hold the position you do.
Grief simply isn't assuaged by vengeance. I suppose that's my opinion, but I'd take it to the bank.
Maybe. Maybe not. Many have been referenced throughout this thread that did think they needed it though. In particular, Dr. Petit, who lost his wife and two daughters in a horrible home invasion. He was a staunch opponent of the DP until murder touched him personally.
My family has been unlucky with murder. My uncle was murdered, and my brother took his own life after 8 years in solitary confinement for a murder of which he was falsely convicted. I speak from a place of understanding pain, and knowing the value of moving past it. Punishments don't bring a victim back, and they are little to no solace for those picking up the pieces.
Damn,Gambs Sorry to hear that.Now i see why you think the way you do.Thanks for putting that out there and sharing.Although we don't agree on this issue ,it sure helps frame why you are so passionate about it.
in my opinion it is not exactly vengeance, it's deeper than that. there could be a slight bit of vengeance but it's about taking out the trash more than anything. as good people we have to protect our own. as good people we will be taken into the horrors of sick little shits who throughly enjoy wreaking havoc on the small, the innocent & the vulnerable & sometimes these nasty shits take out those who are not the small, the not so innocent & the not so vulnerable.
i myself & countless others wish to live peacefully in a world as free as can be of the infestation of cruel fucking rejects. fuck around like a disgusting low life & wear a fucking bullet in your skull. simple shit
Families of victims have very different feelings about it. Many, many of them do not support the DP. Others do. Or think they do. Some are glad when it's been carried out. Others regret that it was. I think it's very presumptuous to use the argument that it's the right thing to do because of the victims' families. It is a FACT that the DP does not help some of them, does nothing either way for some others, and in some cases even makes it worse. I think people should throw that whole argument right out the window when arguing for the DP. It is completely irrelevant since it isn't applicable to a lot of people and is only theoretical until after the fact anyway.
And rgambs, shit, sorry about your family's experiences (what's the deal with your brother???). And for the other person whose family was murdered. Jesus. I never read those posts, but whoever you are, deep condolences.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Families of victims have very different feelings about it. Many, many of them do not support the DP. Others do. Or think they do. Some are glad when it's been carried out. Others regret that it was. I think it's very presumptuous to use the argument that it's the right thing to do because of the victims' families. It is a FACT that the DP does not help some of them, does nothing either way for some others, and in some cases even makes it worse. I think people should throw that whole argument right out the window when arguing for the DP. It is completely irrelevant since it isn't applicable to a lot of people and is only theoretical until after the fact anyway.
And rgambs, shit, sorry about your family's experiences (what's the deal with your brother???). And for the other person whose family was murdered. Jesus. I never read those posts, but whoever you are, deep condolences.
Do you not see the conflict in your claiming presumption on the parts of (some of) those who support it, yet saying "think they support" is also presumptiously applied here too? Referencing your first four sentences...you're typically not condescending in your posts but to assume those who support the DP are misguided rather than firm - well, it kind of comes off that way.
Of course the DP doesn't help some (and when I say help, I mean closure in coming to terms with the violent treatment of their loved ones - it's not an automatic, I understand that). But it also does do that for others, shuts a window, allows a sense of balance even if a small one...and if one is willing to toss aside the argument for it based on that it doesn't help some...isn't it also worth it to give further consideration on behalf of those it has helped? Call me callous, but my sympathies will typically lean toward those who've lost in an awful way vs those who caused it.
Cheers to this circle game. Figured I'd throw another nickel into the mix.
Families of victims have very different feelings about it. Many, many of them do not support the DP. Others do. Or think they do. Some are glad when it's been carried out. Others regret that it was. I think it's very presumptuous to use the argument that it's the right thing to do because of the victims' families. It is a FACT that the DP does not help some of them, does nothing either way for some others, and in some cases even makes it worse. I think people should throw that whole argument right out the window when arguing for the DP. It is completely irrelevant since it isn't applicable to a lot of people and is only theoretical until after the fact anyway.
And rgambs, shit, sorry about your family's experiences (what's the deal with your brother???). And for the other person whose family was murdered. Jesus. I never read those posts, but whoever you are, deep condolences.
Do you not see the conflict in your claiming presumption on the parts of (some of) those who support it, yet saying "think they support" is also presumptiously applied here too? Referencing your first four sentences...you're typically not condescending in your posts but to assume those who support the DP are misguided rather than firm - well, it kind of comes off that way.
Of course the DP doesn't help some (and when I say help, I mean closure in coming to terms with the violent treatment of their loved ones - it's not an automatic, I understand that). But it also does do that for others, shuts a window, allows a sense of balance even if a small one...and if one is willing to toss aside the argument for it based on that it doesn't help some...isn't it also worth it to give further consideration on behalf of those it has helped? Call me callous, but my sympathies will typically lean toward those who've lost in an awful way vs those who caused it.
Cheers to this circle game. Figured I'd throw another nickel into the mix.
No, I'm not condescending here. I don't mean to say that those who support the DP aren't firm in their viewpoint. But to say "think of the families of the victims - I bet they support it!" is indeed presumptuous, since many of those people specifically claim that the DP in no way helped them, and in some cases made things worse for them. Given that, I just don't think that particular argument holds up as a defense for capital punishment, no more than the deterrence argument does.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Well...I hope you'll accept or at least seriously consider that those, or the majority of those, who say they support it DO, and not just "think they do".
Semantics in the end but it does make difference, to me at least.
My take is that even if it is what the family desires, it doesn't make it right. We all have unclean desires from time to time, I think this is one of those situations where people don't always know what's best, and while the freedom to make bad choices is one I hold dear, death is a heavy deal. PJSoul, my half-brother (anybody else hate that term?) made many bad choices in life, the last bad choice was selling drugs to, and fucking, a girl on the last night of her life. the evidence for a conviction simply didn't exist, but there was enough for suspicion, and that is enough for a jury. Mr Timothy Masters was exonerated of a murder for which he was innocent by this same county, and awarded something like 10 million dollars.
Isolate him from society and try to move on with life. There is plenty of tax money to afford it if we stop jailing drug offenders. It's a nominal fraction of what is spent on corporate welfare and war.
And should we tell the parents of the kids that too: "Just move on, man. Don't lie there at night thinking of that idiot with his fan club in prison. Just move on. Have another kid or something. Geez."
And how do we isolate him from society? He can remain behind bars, but his very existence places him among us. There are good people that have the job of cleaning his cell, preparing him meals, escorting him throughout the prison, and whatever other task he needs to spend his time behind bars.
Never forget that there have been- and always will be- episodes where killers kill behind bars. You can point to procedural failings if you wish to explain how these people were afforded another opportunity to take a life; however, if doing so... you would be remiss not to acknowledge that in these cases, the DP would have proven to be someone's salvation.
Allowing victims to dole out sentences not prudent. Some would want executions for robbery and theft.
Families of victims have very different feelings about it. Many, many of them do not support the DP. Others do. Or think they do. Some are glad when it's been carried out. Others regret that it was. I think it's very presumptuous to use the argument that it's the right thing to do because of the victims' families. It is a FACT that the DP does not help some of them, does nothing either way for some others, and in some cases even makes it worse. I think people should throw that whole argument right out the window when arguing for the DP. It is completely irrelevant since it isn't applicable to a lot of people and is only theoretical until after the fact anyway.
And rgambs, shit, sorry about your family's experiences (what's the deal with your brother???). And for the other person whose family was murdered. Jesus. I never read those posts, but whoever you are, deep condolences.
Do you not see the conflict in your claiming presumption on the parts of (some of) those who support it, yet saying "think they support" is also presumptiously applied here too? Referencing your first four sentences...you're typically not condescending in your posts but to assume those who support the DP are misguided rather than firm - well, it kind of comes off that way.
Of course the DP doesn't help some (and when I say help, I mean closure in coming to terms with the violent treatment of their loved ones - it's not an automatic, I understand that). But it also does do that for others, shuts a window, allows a sense of balance even if a small one...and if one is willing to toss aside the argument for it based on that it doesn't help some...isn't it also worth it to give further consideration on behalf of those it has helped? Call me callous, but my sympathies will typically lean toward those who've lost in an awful way vs those who caused it.
Cheers to this circle game. Figured I'd throw another nickel into the mix.
No, I'm not condescending here. I don't mean to say that those who support the DP aren't firm in their viewpoint. But to say "think of the families of the victims - I bet they support it!" is indeed presumptuous, since many of those people specifically claim that the DP in no way helped them, and in some cases made things worse for them. Given that, I just don't think that particular argument holds up as a defense for capital punishment, no more than the deterrence argument does.
Or the costs. Or the assurance innocents will be put to death. Or giving the government means to permanently silence. Or allowing a morally wrong thing to be condoned by a civilized society. Or saying one thing, don't kill yet that's what we're doing.
Other than satisfying our blood thirst craving, see no benefit in killing criminals.
We need to rise above our emotional needs and do what's right.
in my opinion it is not exactly vengeance, it's deeper than that. there could be a slight bit of vengeance but it's about taking out the trash more than anything. as good people we have to protect our own. as good people we will be taken into the horrors of sick little shits who throughly enjoy wreaking havoc on the small, the innocent & the vulnerable & sometimes these nasty shits take out those who are not the small, the not so innocent & the not so vulnerable.
i myself & countless others wish to live peacefully in a world as free as can be of the infestation of cruel fucking rejects. fuck around like a disgusting low life & wear a fucking bullet in your skull. simple shit
Chad, You are so good with words and their meanings. Yet on last few pages you write strong words clearly driven with rage and revenge. Do you not see your hate and possible irrational position supporting execution? Don't mean to be so personal but know you are strong and may reflect.
I'm not weak on criminals and hope all those that cause crimes get punished severely for their actions but won't do as they have done.
Lock them up. Give them minimal creature comforts to minimize costs.
Isolate him from society and try to move on with life. There is plenty of tax money to afford it if we stop jailing drug offenders. It's a nominal fraction of what is spent on corporate welfare and war.
And should we tell the parents of the kids that too: "Just move on, man. Don't lie there at night thinking of that idiot with his fan club in prison. Just move on. Have another kid or something. Geez."
And how do we isolate him from society? He can remain behind bars, but his very existence places him among us. There are good people that have the job of cleaning his cell, preparing him meals, escorting him throughout the prison, and whatever other task he needs to spend his time behind bars.
Never forget that there have been- and always will be- episodes where killers kill behind bars. You can point to procedural failings if you wish to explain how these people were afforded another opportunity to take a life; however, if doing so... you would be remiss not to acknowledge that in these cases, the DP would have proven to be someone's salvation.
Allowing victims to dole out sentences not prudent. Some would want executions for robbery and theft.
But that's a jump, callen. Robbery and theft are nowhere near the atrocities visited upon some.
I think most of us agree on this, at the very least...?
Isolate him from society and try to move on with life. There is plenty of tax money to afford it if we stop jailing drug offenders. It's a nominal fraction of what is spent on corporate welfare and war.
And should we tell the parents of the kids that too: "Just move on, man. Don't lie there at night thinking of that idiot with his fan club in prison. Just move on. Have another kid or something. Geez."
And how do we isolate him from society? He can remain behind bars, but his very existence places him among us. There are good people that have the job of cleaning his cell, preparing him meals, escorting him throughout the prison, and whatever other task he needs to spend his time behind bars.
Never forget that there have been- and always will be- episodes where killers kill behind bars. You can point to procedural failings if you wish to explain how these people were afforded another opportunity to take a life; however, if doing so... you would be remiss not to acknowledge that in these cases, the DP would have proven to be someone's salvation.
Allowing victims to dole out sentences not prudent. Some would want executions for robbery and theft.
But that's a jump, callen. Robbery and theft are nowhere near the atrocities visited upon some.
I think most of us agree on this, at the very least...?
Right and the point being victims should have no input including in more egregious crimes.
Well...I hope you'll accept or at least seriously consider that those, or the majority of those, who say they support it DO, and not just "think they do".
Oooohhhh. I now see what you're saying, lol. Wasn't even sure what you were getting at (i am sick and fuzzy). What I meant was that some families of victims supported the death penalty being used on the criminal who hurt their family, but then said after the execution that it didn't help them at all, and some have even claimed to regret that it happened. So they thought they wanted the person executed, but realized they were wrong after the fact. Just going off of some testimonials that I've read.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
in my opinion it is not exactly vengeance, it's deeper than that. there could be a slight bit of vengeance but it's about taking out the trash more than anything. as good people we have to protect our own. as good people we will be taken into the horrors of sick little shits who throughly enjoy wreaking havoc on the small, the innocent & the vulnerable & sometimes these nasty shits take out those who are not the small, the not so innocent & the not so vulnerable.
i myself & countless others wish to live peacefully in a world as free as can be of the infestation of cruel fucking rejects. fuck around like a disgusting low life & wear a fucking bullet in your skull. simple shit
Chad, You are so good with words and their meanings. Yet on last few pages you write strong words clearly driven with rage and revenge. Do you not see your hate and possible irrational position supporting execution? Don't mean to be so personal but know you are strong and may reflect.
I'm not weak on criminals and hope all those that cause crimes get punished severely for their actions but won't do as they have done.
Lock them up. Give them minimal creature comforts to minimize costs.
my rage is as calm as a new born robin on a sunny day. those cracked open turquoise eggs, a pretty color lying on the grass beneath the tree, some shell pieces still in the nest. this is how my rage is... quite calm & pleasant. no shouting, no screaming, no nothing but a bowl of grapes & a banana
the death penalty.....still ? really ? people get a death sentance everyday ! , the cure or none cure for cancer has become a multi billion dollar business annually, water ..our most abundant resource has become a bottled luxaury (brilliant business move), the US allowes people to come to our country illegally costing tax payers billions a year,corp.America is out sourcing thousands of jobs to other countries putting thousands of Americans on the streets or forcing them to barley survive, NAFTA- FAST-TRAC...global economy my ass..we send our products to 3rd world countries to be reproduced at a lower cost while undermining those countries working calsses and American working class, the real killer of this country is good old fasion greed and there is no death sentance for that and let's not forget the IRS....the biggest group of killers known to the US since smallpox and they get bonuses for all the lives they've shattered.
o.k. that was my saturday morning too much coffee rant for the week-end hahhahhahhahaha
the death penalty.....still ? really ? people get a death sentance everyday ! , the cure or none cure for cancer has become a multi billion dollar business annually, water ..our most abundant resource has become a bottled luxaury (brilliant business move), the US allowes people to come to our country illegally costing tax payers billions a year,corp.America is out sourcing thousands of jobs to other countries putting thousands of Americans on the streets or forcing them to barley survive, NAFTA- FAST-TRAC...global economy my ass..we send our products to 3rd world countries to be reproduced at a lower cost while undermining those countries working calsses and American working class, the real killer of this country is good old fasion greed and there is no death sentance for that and let's not forget the IRS....the biggest group of killers known to the US since smallpox and they get bonuses for all the lives they've shattered.
o.k. that was my saturday morning too much coffee rant for the week-end hahhahhahhahaha
Godfather.
I would think that the guarantee to not be killed by the government that you criticize so often would be pretty important to you.
Comments
tornados ,silos,John Deere tractors and Corey Taylor .niceee So your a redneck,I get that I'm a southerner.
i don't function well in the city
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
And how do we isolate him from society? He can remain behind bars, but his very existence places him among us. There are good people that have the job of cleaning his cell, preparing him meals, escorting him throughout the prison, and whatever other task he needs to spend his time behind bars.
Never forget that there have been- and always will be- episodes where killers kill behind bars. You can point to procedural failings if you wish to explain how these people were afforded another opportunity to take a life; however, if doing so... you would be remiss not to acknowledge that in these cases, the DP would have proven to be someone's salvation.
And call it what you want, but I have a pretty good idea what the families feel. Their grief is splashed all over media pages- not to mention the fact that if some of these stories hit us- people far removed from the crime- in the guts... it's likely 1,000X worse for those living the experience. To illustrate what I mean... look what these stories do to poor Chadwick. He spends the majority of his time in the Poetry section of this band's website. In many threads, he speaks of the world and the beauty one can find within it. Yet, hearing of the senseless and savage crimes described in this thread (and some others)... he goes on an emotion driven tirade that belies his true character.
Don't try to underestimate the depths of the grieving parents. Their pain is profound and to not acknowledge their pain- like your words seemed to do- places you way off base.
I completely understand why you hold the position you do.
Sorry to hear that.Now i see why you think the way you do.Thanks for putting that out there and sharing.Although we don't agree on this issue ,it sure helps frame why you are so passionate about it.
i myself & countless others wish to live peacefully in a world as free as can be of the infestation of cruel fucking rejects. fuck around like a disgusting low life & wear a fucking bullet in your skull. simple shit
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
And rgambs, shit, sorry about your family's experiences (what's the deal with your brother???). And for the other person whose family was murdered. Jesus. I never read those posts, but whoever you are, deep condolences.
Of course the DP doesn't help some (and when I say help, I mean closure in coming to terms with the violent treatment of their loved ones - it's not an automatic, I understand that). But it also does do that for others, shuts a window, allows a sense of balance even if a small one...and if one is willing to toss aside the argument for it based on that it doesn't help some...isn't it also worth it to give further consideration on behalf of those it has helped? Call me callous, but my sympathies will typically lean toward those who've lost in an awful way vs those who caused it.
Cheers to this circle game. Figured I'd throw another nickel into the mix.
Semantics in the end but it does make difference, to me at least.
PJSoul, my half-brother (anybody else hate that term?) made many bad choices in life, the last bad choice was selling drugs to, and fucking, a girl on the last night of her life. the evidence for a conviction simply didn't exist, but there was enough for suspicion, and that is enough for a jury. Mr Timothy Masters was exonerated of a murder for which he was innocent by this same county, and awarded something like 10 million dollars.
There are so many reasons the death penalty is wrong and vengeance doesn't in anyway justify overriding these wrongs.
We should strive to be civilized.
Other than satisfying our blood thirst craving, see no benefit in killing criminals.
We need to rise above our emotional needs and do what's right.
I'm not weak on criminals and hope all those that cause crimes get punished severely for their actions but won't do as they have done.
Lock them up. Give them minimal creature comforts to minimize costs.
I think most of us agree on this, at the very least...?
irrational is allowing a sickness to breathe.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
o.k. that was my saturday morning too much coffee rant for the week-end hahhahhahhahaha
Godfather.
Doesn't though mean your correct in your opinion.
Have a great day.
The Callen.
Both of you guys have good days!
I would think that the guarantee to not be killed by the government that you criticize so often would be pretty important to you.
www.headstonesband.com