So... the Death Penalty is proving to be an effective deterrent in China?
The US... with its ineffective, cumbersome and limited application... is rendered ineffective?
Is this what you are telling us Bronx?
I find it interesting that this thread is 56 pages long yet there are only 18 posts that reference china. Now considering they're the number one state sponsored death penalty country in the world you would think more people would be concerned with the thousands of people that are being executed over there than a handful in the US. :corn:
People treat the states a little different as a democracy
thirty bills unpaid is so full of common sense & values it is overwhelming yet simplistic. these extremely nasty bastards deserve what they get. this disgusting freakshow actually awaits death administered by the state w/ open arms & is ready for his after life/ending or whatever you all believe.
goodnight, garbage
it's odd to me that you equate the killing of other humans as "common sense and values". yes, I understand you don't believe they are human. they are "monsters". but in reality, they are human. and we have no right to kill humans. do you not find it telling that the US is the only 1st world free nation that still administers it?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
So... the Death Penalty is proving to be an effective deterrent in China?
The US... with its ineffective, cumbersome and limited application... is rendered ineffective?
Is this what you are telling us Bronx?
I find it interesting that this thread is 56 pages long yet there are only 18 posts that reference china. Now considering they're the number one state sponsored death penalty country in the world you would think more people would be concerned with the thousands of people that are being executed over there than a handful in the US. :corn:
I think it's easy to deduce why: 99% of the people in this thread are American. And how can you have a free society that kills its own people? that is the ultimate hypocrisy.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
So... the Death Penalty is proving to be an effective deterrent in China?
The US... with its ineffective, cumbersome and limited application... is rendered ineffective?
Is this what you are telling us Bronx?
I find it interesting that this thread is 56 pages long yet there are only 18 posts that reference china. Now considering they're the number one state sponsored death penalty country in the world you would think more people would be concerned with the thousands of people that are being executed over there than a handful in the US. :corn:
I think it's easy to deduce why: 99% of the people in this thread are American. And how can you have a free society that kills its own people? that is the ultimate hypocrisy.
A 'free society' doesn't mean people can freely engage in wanton behaviour without severe consequences. People are free to make their choices and if their choice is one that harms someone else... we hold them accountable. And don't stop at murder, Hugh. Extending your line of thinking... one could say that it is hypocritical to post speed limits in a free society as well.
With the aforementioned stated... they don't 'kill' their own people: they hold people accountable and 'sentence' them when they behave badly.
Nobody wants to execute anyone. We would all much prefer homicidal maniacs to keep to themselves and not murder innocent women and children; however, regardless of what our preferences are... some homicidal maniacs need to indulge in their sick ways and... as a result... they get 'sentenced'.
They make their own bed. After raping and killing children... one should only expect that society will respond in appropriate fashion. Affording ping pong, music, and pen pals is not responding in appropriate fashion for some.
i throughly believe the most vile of despicable bastards get full on capital punishment. tax dollars could build parks, flowered bordered sidewalks sprawling cities, added public transit systems where public transit does not exist, medical, dental & eye coverage, better all around health care, the list goes on & on.
the cost of housing & taking care of extremely dangerous folks who have been proven guilty beyond a shadow of doubt is costing the u.s. a fortune. the legal fees alone are through the ceiling. i am talking about the vile, the full on blatant smear your nose in it jerk offs who tell of enjoying how the killed women, children & men & how they love(d) causing agony & how they dream this stuff, 24x7. wake up daydreaming causing suffering & go to sleep dreaming how they can cause horrific damage to others
these very dangerous freaks need meet the death dealer/grim reaper. they can see how they wanna play violence then. for 28 years (dad died when i ws 28) my family was engulfed in the life of a simple, kind, straight up prison guard. at 2pm dad got off work. it was on for prison stories. most are ok or semi ok folks. a small percent are beyond help, are beyond a simple act of violence, these folks are vile monsters.
i am throughly convinced i could shock most of you on here with a few horrific deatiled events. as a father yourself, hugh, you must carry some kind of rage in you if your family were ever damaged, right?
most families cover the nasty details of despicable violence from their children & wives. not here. at 8 years old i was hunting monsters alongside the old man. :twisted:
thirty bills unpaid is so full of common sense & values it is overwhelming yet simplistic.
Cheers, Chadwick. You are very kind to me and I appreciate these words coming from you.
Even as someone sitting across the fence I have been impressed by Thirty Bills posts here. Thought provoking and interesting .. And at all times respectful of the debate
thirty bills unpaid is so full of common sense & values it is overwhelming yet simplistic.
Cheers, Chadwick. You are very kind to me and I appreciate these words coming from you.
Even as someone sitting across the fence I have been impressed by Thirty Bills posts here. Thought provoking and interesting .. And at all times respectful of the debate
thirty bill unpaid is a kind, respectful brain & soul unlike myself. i could learn a few things from him & from a number of you people
thirty bills unpaid is so full of common sense & values it is overwhelming yet simplistic.
Cheers, Chadwick. You are very kind to me and I appreciate these words coming from you.
Even as someone sitting across the fence I have been impressed by Thirty Bills posts here. Thought provoking and interesting .. And at all times respectful of the debate
And cheers to you too, sir. Again, these words coming from you mean much.
i throughly believe the most vile of despicable bastards get full on capital punishment. tax dollars could build parks, flowered bordered sidewalks sprawling cities, added public transit systems where public transit does not exist, medical, dental & eye coverage, better all around health care, the list goes on & on.
the cost of housing & taking care of extremely dangerous folks who have been proven guilty beyond a shadow of doubt is costing the u.s. a fortune. the legal fees alone are through the ceiling. i am talking about the vile, the full on blatant smear your nose in it jerk offs who tell of enjoying how the killed women, children & men & how they love(d) causing agony & how they dream this stuff, 24x7. wake up daydreaming causing suffering & go to sleep dreaming how they can cause horrific damage to others
as has been stated and proven many times over, the death penalty (after all due dilligence and process) costs more than life in prison.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
With the aforementioned stated... they don't 'kill' their own people: they hold people accountable and 'sentence' them when they behave badly.
kill: The act of causing the death of a living organism
if you refuse to admit that it's murder, that's fine, but it is a fact that they are killing people. by using the definition of the word, that cannot be disputed.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
With the aforementioned stated... they don't 'kill' their own people: they hold people accountable and 'sentence' them when they behave badly.
kill: The act of causing the death of a living organism
if you refuse to admit that it's murder, that's fine, but it is a fact that they are killing people. by using the definition of the word, that cannot be disputed.
I guess.
While we're examining words... look at this one:
justice: the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
As in the Cheshire Murders which sparked the last few pages of this thread... exactly what is the 'deserved punishment' for breaking into a house, robbing, raping the occupants (one being 11 years old), igniting the occupants on fire, and burning the house down?
I can see prison terms for fraud, theft, burglary, assault, and other crimes of a less grievous nature... but I cannot see a guy who holds up a gas store serving the same sentence as the two shitbaggers who murdered and raped the three Petit women after bludgeoning the father with a baseball bat beforehand.
Deserved punishment? Death. They don't have to be bludgeoned, raped and burned alive as the Petit family did courtesy of these two asshats... but clinical death is more than 'deserved' in my opinion. And as long as it happens, you can call it whatever you like.
iron it out, get rid of all the bullshit & you have 13 cents invested
you do that and the amount of people wrongly convicted and wrongly put to death sky rockets. is that your wish?
sure it is, hugh, it is my only true wish... all innocent people in prison must die tonight at midnite
gimmie some heads, they be rollin! bwahahahahahaaaa (is that how it's spelt, the evil laugh?)
iron it out, get rid of all the bullshit & you have 13 cents invested
you do that and the amount of people wrongly convicted and wrongly put to death sky rockets. is that your wish?
The process is flawed beyond belief.
The scumbags caught fleeing the Petit residence were guilty beyond any doubt: there is no reason to trudge along any more.
In the cases where circumstances are not so cut and dry... proceed with caution.
So... what should this more efficient model look like with those two parameters? I'm not sure. But you would have to think that experts that have committed their careers and lives to the field would be able to come up with something better if they were inclined to do so.
The scumbags caught fleeing the Petit residence were guilty beyond any doubt: there is no reason to trudge along any more.
In the cases where circumstances are not so cut and dry... proceed with caution.
So... what should this more efficient model look like with those two parameters? I'm not sure. But you would have to think that experts that have committed their careers and lives to the field would be able to come up with something better if they were inclined to do so.
Dr. Petit... wow!
that sickening event is one i cannot stomach. as i type this i am watching/listening to a youtube clip to remind myself of this disgraceful episode.
The scumbags caught fleeing the Petit residence were guilty beyond any doubt: there is no reason to trudge along any more.
In the cases where circumstances are not so cut and dry... proceed with caution.
So... what should this more efficient model look like with those two parameters? I'm not sure. But you would have to think that experts that have committed their careers and lives to the field would be able to come up with something better if they were inclined to do so.
to me that doesn't even matter. if there was zero percent chance that they'd be wrongly convicted/put to death, I'd still advocate against it.
my point to chad is he seems to think it is cheaper to put someone down than house them for life, and as predicted, he seems to think it is as easy as the jury convicting the man one minute, and the next minute putting a bullet in their brain. without exhausting the appeals process and whatnot, you rob endless innocent men of their lives.
does that burning alive case sicken me? you have no idea. don't think for a moment that I "sympathize" with the perps just because I don't think it's right to kill them. I find that insulting.
anyway, there's nothing new in this thread. it's just one big circle jerk. and I'm feeling a bit chafed.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
those two sick shits who destroyed the petit family were caught red handed, flat out guilty as two fucks could ever be. they deserve an ending ASAP. they went to court. they were proven guilty with DNA testing & other tests & there own statements. they were seen by cops running & laughing out of the home.
wear bullets to the skulls you bastards... how dare they... how dare anyone do such horrific acts.
this is demonic work at its best. i do not ever support any sort of behavior keeping them going. i support stopping their breathing. why support demonic behavior, keeping it going?
those two sick shits who destroyed the petit family were caught red handed, flat out guilty as two fucks could ever be. they deserve an ending ASAP. they went to court. they were proven guilty with DNA testing & other tests & there own statements. they were seen by cops running & laughing out of the home.
wear bullets to the skulls you bastards... how dare they... how dare anyone do such horrific acts.
this is demonic work at its best. i do not ever support any sort of behavior keeping them going. i support stopping their breathing. why support demonic behavior, keeping it going?
no one is disputing their guilt.
it's not supporting demonic behavior. it's choosing not to kill. keep it going because it's not my choice, nor anyone's unless in imminent mortal danger, to end the life of another.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
those two sick shits who destroyed the petit family were caught red handed, flat out guilty as two fucks could ever be. they deserve an ending ASAP. they went to court. they were proven guilty with DNA testing & other tests & there own statements. they were seen by cops running & laughing out of the home.
wear bullets to the skulls you bastards... how dare they... how dare anyone do such horrific acts.
this is demonic work at its best. i do not ever support any sort of behavior keeping them going. i support stopping their breathing. why support demonic behavior, keeping it going?
no one is disputing their guilt.
it's not supporting demonic behavior. it's choosing not to kill. keep it going because it's not my choice, nor anyone's unless in imminent mortal danger, to end the life of another.
those two nasty assholes sure as shit ended four lives, killed two girls, kill their mother & totally destroyed the mental & physical love of mr. petit's life... am i saying this right?
this case is one of the nastiest crimes i have ever heard of. these two creatures are despicable & throughly demonic in nature. i am done going rounds with you, hugh. if this ever happened to anyone near me i would be destroyed my own self.
i beg you to watch over your family to the fullest of your abilities. i am your friend i love debating with you & our other friends here. a great group.
i see things differently, you see things differently. seems it will be this way forever, which is good. but if someone's gotta smokes evil demonic sick fucks, i am not going to stand in the way. these assholes deserve a swift ride to hell or wherever they are headed once they stop breathing
The scumbags caught fleeing the Petit residence were guilty beyond any doubt: there is no reason to trudge along any more.
In the cases where circumstances are not so cut and dry... proceed with caution.
So... what should this more efficient model look like with those two parameters? I'm not sure. But you would have to think that experts that have committed their careers and lives to the field would be able to come up with something better if they were inclined to do so.
to me that doesn't even matter. if there was zero percent chance that they'd be wrongly convicted/put to death, I'd still advocate against it.
my point to chad is he seems to think it is cheaper to put someone down than house them for life, and as predicted, he seems to think it is as easy as the jury convicting the man one minute, and the next minute putting a bullet in their brain. without exhausting the appeals process and whatnot, you rob endless innocent men of their lives.
does that burning alive case sicken me? you have no idea. don't think for a moment that I "sympathize" with the perps just because I don't think it's right to kill them. I find that insulting.
anyway, there's nothing new in this thread. it's just one big circle jerk. and I'm feeling a bit chafed.
You are certainly permitted to have your own opinion- especially when you have examined the issue at length to formulate it... which you have done.
I truly cannot understand the mentality where you say if there was a zero percent chance of being wrongfully convicted you would still be against it.
I have two questions for you:
1. If this had happened to you and yours... wouldn't you want these two scumbags executed?
2(a). If the answer to question 1 is "Yes"... then why would you speak against Petit's need for justice?
2(b). If the answer to question 1 is "No"... well... I still like you anyways.
You are certainly permitted to have your own opinion- especially when you have examined the issue at length to formulate it... which you have done.
I truly cannot understand the mentality where you say if there was a zero percent chance of being wrongfully convicted you would still be against it.
I have two questions for you:
1. If this had happened to you and yours... wouldn't you want these two scumbags executed?
2(a). If the answer to question 1 is "Yes"... then why would you speak against Petit's need for justice?
2(b). If the answer to question 1 is "No"... well... I still like you anyways.
because to me it's not a question of guilt or not. we, as a society, do not own the rights to take life. simple as that. I don't care if you are Saddam Hussein (I was sickened by his execution), Adolf Hitler, Osama, Charles Manson or the Son of Sam or this guy. We can lock you up. But it is not my right, nor anyone else's, to take your life.
1) I honestly don't know. I'd hope I wouldn't. But it's quite possible that I would want that.
2) Because it's not his choice to make. Justice does not require death. There, to be honest, is no justice in this sort of situation. Locking him up, killing him, or cutting off his fingers and feeding them to him and then ripping them out of his stomach half-digested and stuffing them up his ass; nothing short of bringing back the dead would be justice. His "need for justice" is based on revenge or closure. But at what price does this closure come?
All that is required is that he is locked up so he won't do it again.
If my daughter gets beat up by a kid at school, if I were to administer the "death penalty" equivalent of playground justice, I would go to the playground on behalf of my daughter and beat the shit out of that kid right back. Is that what you call justice? Because that's what you're doing. Asking the "parents" of the justice system to punish the offender on behalf of the victim/victim's family.
Is that what you'd teach our children how to treat people that have wronged you? That's not how I'm going to raise my daughters. No way in hell. That's the sort of shit that breeds people like Eric Harris and Daryl Klebold.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
exactly what is the 'deserved punishment' for breaking into a house, robbing, raping the occupants (one being 11 years old), igniting the occupants on fire, and burning the house down?
I can see prison terms for fraud, theft, burglary, assault, and other crimes of a less grievous nature... but I cannot see a guy who holds up a gas store serving the same sentence as the two shitbaggers who murdered and raped the three Petit women after bludgeoning the father with a baseball bat beforehand.
Deserved punishment? Death. They don't have to be bludgeoned, raped and burned alive as the Petit family did courtesy of these two asshats... but clinical death is more than 'deserved' in my opinion. And as long as it happens, you can call it whatever you like.
If someone did that to my family I wouldn't call for them to be murdered in turn. I'd rather they were sent to jail for a very long time. Maybe 20 years. In the meantime I'd want to confront them and understand what made them do it, and get them to think about their actions. I don't think anyone is 100% bad, just as nobody is 100% good. I'd like to sift through all the hate and violence within them and try and find the good, and work on that.
You are certainly permitted to have your own opinion- especially when you have examined the issue at length to formulate it... which you have done.
I truly cannot understand the mentality where you say if there was a zero percent chance of being wrongfully convicted you would still be against it.
I have two questions for you:
1. If this had happened to you and yours... wouldn't you want these two scumbags executed?
2(a). If the answer to question 1 is "Yes"... then why would you speak against Petit's need for justice?
2(b). If the answer to question 1 is "No"... well... I still like you anyways.
because to me it's not a question of guilt or not. we, as a society, do not own the rights to take life. simple as that. I don't care if you are Saddam Hussein (I was sickened by his execution), Adolf Hitler, Osama, Charles Manson or the Son of Sam or this guy. We can lock you up. But it is not my right, nor anyone else's, to take your life.
1) I honestly don't know. I'd hope I wouldn't. But it's quite possible that I would want that.
2) Because it's not his choice to make. Justice does not require death. There, to be honest, is no justice in this sort of situation. Locking him up, killing him, or cutting off his fingers and feeding them to him and then ripping them out of his stomach half-digested and stuffing them up his ass; nothing short of bringing back the dead would be justice. His "need for justice" is based on revenge or closure. But at what price does this closure come?
All that is required is that he is locked up so he won't do it again.
If my daughter gets beat up by a kid at school, if I were to administer the "death penalty" equivalent of playground justice, I would go to the playground on behalf of my daughter and beat the shit out of that kid right back. Is that what you call justice? Because that's what you're doing. Asking the "parents" of the justice system to punish the offender on behalf of the victim/victim's family.
Is that what you'd teach our children how to treat people that have wronged you? That's not how I'm going to raise my daughters. No way in hell. That's the sort of shit that breeds people like Eric Harris and Daryl Klebold.
When someone takes the life of someone else, they forfeit their rights that you suggest they should still hold. Is it society's right to lock someone up as well? Your line says 'no' to execution, but 'yes' to imprisonment. This is your line, but not mine. This doesn't mean you are right and it doesn't mean you are wrong- it's just your line.
Comparing the death penalty to playground bullying is a reach, but I'll play along for a bit.
I definitely teach my children to stand up for themselves if that is what you are asking of me.
My daughter, in grade 2, had two kids her same age hang her from the playground apparatus. She was too heavy for them to hold and she fell to the ground without much harm other than a burn around her neck. Of course, I am pissed, but left it to the authorities to mete out their justice.
3 days of garbage duty was the 'justice'. Fair enough I guess, but, of course, the 3 days were not even up and the one kid slammed my daughter's head into her friend's face while they were lined up- causing a nosebleed for her friend and slight trauma for my daughter. Now I'm really pissed. I'm visiting the school to talk to administrators who are very sheepish. In no uncertain terms, I spell out the fact that I will become a pit bull if another incident occurs. I demanded they deal with the incident in a little more forceful and effective fashion.
The limp and lame ladder of discipline established as policy in the school system has no effect on curbing unruly behaviour: too many fireside chats and too much coddling. Policies have empowered kids to act as they wish with very little consequence. Obviously, there are bigger problems in the home where parents have neglected their disciplinary responsibilities. A really, really soft approach to discipline has begun to erode the quality of our youth sector.
That's the sort of shit that breeds people like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.
And a really, really soft approach to discipline in the real world has eroded the quality of our society.
LAST year China is thought to have executed about 3,000 people, or roughly four times more than the rest of the world put together (excluding Egypt and Syria, where numbers are hard to assess). It is a grim distinction. But consider a brighter, even astonishing, trend: over the past decade, the number of people China executes has fallen precipitously.
According to the Dui Hua Foundation, an American NGO that tracks these things, the 2012 figure is down from 12,000 people executed in 2002—a fall of three-quarters. In other words, though China remains the world’s chief executioner, it is also largely responsible for a marked worldwide fall in the number of executions.
The Communist Party considers the execution rate to be a state secret and has not even publicly noted the extent of this fall. But it has confirmed it indirectly. In 2012 a deputy minister of health cited the decline in executed prisoners as a reason for a shortage in organs available for transplant in China. Dui Hua’s estimates are thus the best figures available. Western scholars broadly agree with the numbers, behind which lies an intriguing tale of Chinese reformers working quietly for change.
Historically, the Chinese Communist Party has overseen horrendous violence. Though not on the scale of Stalin’s Soviet Union, this started with the purges of landlords and other “counter-revolutionaries” in the late 1940s and early 1950s. Mao Zedong coolly declared that “the killing of counter-revolutionaries should usually not exceed 0.1% of the population, and should be less than 0.1% in the cities.” Millions died in a few short years, as Chinese villages were encouraged to mete out their own punishment with the aim of creating a blessed “New China”.
Just for reference in the US in 2012 43 people were executed. :corn:
Yeah, and most have them had no recourse to a fair trial. Also, many of those snuffed out by the State here very year are political prisoners, deemed to have committed crimes against 'State power'.
It's very fucked up, and there should be more international awareness and condemnation of it.
LAST year China is thought to have executed about 3,000 people, or roughly four times more than the rest of the world put together (excluding Egypt and Syria, where numbers are hard to assess). It is a grim distinction. But consider a brighter, even astonishing, trend: over the past decade, the number of people China executes has fallen precipitously.
According to the Dui Hua Foundation, an American NGO that tracks these things, the 2012 figure is down from 12,000 people executed in 2002—a fall of three-quarters. In other words, though China remains the world’s chief executioner, it is also largely responsible for a marked worldwide fall in the number of executions.
The Communist Party considers the execution rate to be a state secret and has not even publicly noted the extent of this fall. But it has confirmed it indirectly. In 2012 a deputy minister of health cited the decline in executed prisoners as a reason for a shortage in organs available for transplant in China. Dui Hua’s estimates are thus the best figures available. Western scholars broadly agree with the numbers, behind which lies an intriguing tale of Chinese reformers working quietly for change.
Historically, the Chinese Communist Party has overseen horrendous violence. Though not on the scale of Stalin’s Soviet Union, this started with the purges of landlords and other “counter-revolutionaries” in the late 1940s and early 1950s. Mao Zedong coolly declared that “the killing of counter-revolutionaries should usually not exceed 0.1% of the population, and should be less than 0.1% in the cities.” Millions died in a few short years, as Chinese villages were encouraged to mete out their own punishment with the aim of creating a blessed “New China”.
exactly what is the 'deserved punishment' for breaking into a house, robbing, raping the occupants (one being 11 years old), igniting the occupants on fire, and burning the house down?
I can see prison terms for fraud, theft, burglary, assault, and other crimes of a less grievous nature... but I cannot see a guy who holds up a gas store serving the same sentence as the two shitbaggers who murdered and raped the three Petit women after bludgeoning the father with a baseball bat beforehand.
Deserved punishment? Death. They don't have to be bludgeoned, raped and burned alive as the Petit family did courtesy of these two asshats... but clinical death is more than 'deserved' in my opinion. And as long as it happens, you can call it whatever you like.
If someone did that to my family I wouldn't call for them to be murdered in turn. I'd rather they were sent to jail for a very long time. Maybe 20 years. In the meantime I'd want to confront them and understand what made them do it, and get them to think about their actions. I don't think anyone is 100% bad, just as nobody is 100% good. I'd like to sift through all the hate and violence within them and try and find the good, and work on that.
Having them killed solves, and resolves, nothing.
Then you are a better man than me.
Or you don't love your family very much!
We are at an impasse. Thanks for being you, Byrnzie. And Hugh. And Chadwick. And PD, Godfather, Pingfah... and I'll stop there.
Comments
Some people also live in glass houses
it's odd to me that you equate the killing of other humans as "common sense and values". yes, I understand you don't believe they are human. they are "monsters". but in reality, they are human. and we have no right to kill humans. do you not find it telling that the US is the only 1st world free nation that still administers it?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I think it's easy to deduce why: 99% of the people in this thread are American. And how can you have a free society that kills its own people? that is the ultimate hypocrisy.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
A 'free society' doesn't mean people can freely engage in wanton behaviour without severe consequences. People are free to make their choices and if their choice is one that harms someone else... we hold them accountable. And don't stop at murder, Hugh. Extending your line of thinking... one could say that it is hypocritical to post speed limits in a free society as well.
With the aforementioned stated... they don't 'kill' their own people: they hold people accountable and 'sentence' them when they behave badly.
Nobody wants to execute anyone. We would all much prefer homicidal maniacs to keep to themselves and not murder innocent women and children; however, regardless of what our preferences are... some homicidal maniacs need to indulge in their sick ways and... as a result... they get 'sentenced'.
They make their own bed. After raping and killing children... one should only expect that society will respond in appropriate fashion. Affording ping pong, music, and pen pals is not responding in appropriate fashion for some.
I see what you have done here.
Cheers, Chadwick. You are very kind to me and I appreciate these words coming from you.
the cost of housing & taking care of extremely dangerous folks who have been proven guilty beyond a shadow of doubt is costing the u.s. a fortune. the legal fees alone are through the ceiling. i am talking about the vile, the full on blatant smear your nose in it jerk offs who tell of enjoying how the killed women, children & men & how they love(d) causing agony & how they dream this stuff, 24x7. wake up daydreaming causing suffering & go to sleep dreaming how they can cause horrific damage to others
these very dangerous freaks need meet the death dealer/grim reaper. they can see how they wanna play violence then. for 28 years (dad died when i ws 28) my family was engulfed in the life of a simple, kind, straight up prison guard. at 2pm dad got off work. it was on for prison stories. most are ok or semi ok folks. a small percent are beyond help, are beyond a simple act of violence, these folks are vile monsters.
i am throughly convinced i could shock most of you on here with a few horrific deatiled events. as a father yourself, hugh, you must carry some kind of rage in you if your family were ever damaged, right?
most families cover the nasty details of despicable violence from their children & wives. not here. at 8 years old i was hunting monsters alongside the old man. :twisted:
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Even as someone sitting across the fence I have been impressed by Thirty Bills posts here. Thought provoking and interesting .. And at all times respectful of the debate
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
And cheers to you too, sir. Again, these words coming from you mean much.
as has been stated and proven many times over, the death penalty (after all due dilligence and process) costs more than life in prison.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
kill: The act of causing the death of a living organism
if you refuse to admit that it's murder, that's fine, but it is a fact that they are killing people. by using the definition of the word, that cannot be disputed.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
you do that and the amount of people wrongly convicted and wrongly put to death sky rockets. is that your wish?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I guess.
While we're examining words... look at this one:
justice: the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
As in the Cheshire Murders which sparked the last few pages of this thread... exactly what is the 'deserved punishment' for breaking into a house, robbing, raping the occupants (one being 11 years old), igniting the occupants on fire, and burning the house down?
I can see prison terms for fraud, theft, burglary, assault, and other crimes of a less grievous nature... but I cannot see a guy who holds up a gas store serving the same sentence as the two shitbaggers who murdered and raped the three Petit women after bludgeoning the father with a baseball bat beforehand.
Deserved punishment? Death. They don't have to be bludgeoned, raped and burned alive as the Petit family did courtesy of these two asshats... but clinical death is more than 'deserved' in my opinion. And as long as it happens, you can call it whatever you like.
gimmie some heads, they be rollin! bwahahahahahaaaa (is that how it's spelt, the evil laugh?)
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
The process is flawed beyond belief.
The scumbags caught fleeing the Petit residence were guilty beyond any doubt: there is no reason to trudge along any more.
In the cases where circumstances are not so cut and dry... proceed with caution.
So... what should this more efficient model look like with those two parameters? I'm not sure. But you would have to think that experts that have committed their careers and lives to the field would be able to come up with something better if they were inclined to do so.
that sickening event is one i cannot stomach. as i type this i am watching/listening to a youtube clip to remind myself of this disgraceful episode.
i am turning it off.
oh my god
http://youtu.be/V0iF6u5eri8
you people should watch this with your full attention. it is not pretty. you folks do not believe in evil monsters?
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
to me that doesn't even matter. if there was zero percent chance that they'd be wrongly convicted/put to death, I'd still advocate against it.
my point to chad is he seems to think it is cheaper to put someone down than house them for life, and as predicted, he seems to think it is as easy as the jury convicting the man one minute, and the next minute putting a bullet in their brain. without exhausting the appeals process and whatnot, you rob endless innocent men of their lives.
does that burning alive case sicken me? you have no idea. don't think for a moment that I "sympathize" with the perps just because I don't think it's right to kill them. I find that insulting.
anyway, there's nothing new in this thread. it's just one big circle jerk. and I'm feeling a bit chafed.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
wear bullets to the skulls you bastards... how dare they... how dare anyone do such horrific acts.
this is demonic work at its best. i do not ever support any sort of behavior keeping them going. i support stopping their breathing. why support demonic behavior, keeping it going?
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
no one is disputing their guilt.
it's not supporting demonic behavior. it's choosing not to kill. keep it going because it's not my choice, nor anyone's unless in imminent mortal danger, to end the life of another.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
this case is one of the nastiest crimes i have ever heard of. these two creatures are despicable & throughly demonic in nature. i am done going rounds with you, hugh. if this ever happened to anyone near me i would be destroyed my own self.
i beg you to watch over your family to the fullest of your abilities. i am your friend i love debating with you & our other friends here. a great group.
i see things differently, you see things differently. seems it will be this way forever, which is good. but if someone's gotta smokes evil demonic sick fucks, i am not going to stand in the way. these assholes deserve a swift ride to hell or wherever they are headed once they stop breathing
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
You are certainly permitted to have your own opinion- especially when you have examined the issue at length to formulate it... which you have done.
I truly cannot understand the mentality where you say if there was a zero percent chance of being wrongfully convicted you would still be against it.
I have two questions for you:
1. If this had happened to you and yours... wouldn't you want these two scumbags executed?
2(a). If the answer to question 1 is "Yes"... then why would you speak against Petit's need for justice?
2(b). If the answer to question 1 is "No"... well... I still like you anyways.
because to me it's not a question of guilt or not. we, as a society, do not own the rights to take life. simple as that. I don't care if you are Saddam Hussein (I was sickened by his execution), Adolf Hitler, Osama, Charles Manson or the Son of Sam or this guy. We can lock you up. But it is not my right, nor anyone else's, to take your life.
1) I honestly don't know. I'd hope I wouldn't. But it's quite possible that I would want that.
2) Because it's not his choice to make. Justice does not require death. There, to be honest, is no justice in this sort of situation. Locking him up, killing him, or cutting off his fingers and feeding them to him and then ripping them out of his stomach half-digested and stuffing them up his ass; nothing short of bringing back the dead would be justice. His "need for justice" is based on revenge or closure. But at what price does this closure come?
All that is required is that he is locked up so he won't do it again.
If my daughter gets beat up by a kid at school, if I were to administer the "death penalty" equivalent of playground justice, I would go to the playground on behalf of my daughter and beat the shit out of that kid right back. Is that what you call justice? Because that's what you're doing. Asking the "parents" of the justice system to punish the offender on behalf of the victim/victim's family.
Is that what you'd teach our children how to treat people that have wronged you? That's not how I'm going to raise my daughters. No way in hell. That's the sort of shit that breeds people like Eric Harris and Daryl Klebold.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
If someone did that to my family I wouldn't call for them to be murdered in turn. I'd rather they were sent to jail for a very long time. Maybe 20 years. In the meantime I'd want to confront them and understand what made them do it, and get them to think about their actions. I don't think anyone is 100% bad, just as nobody is 100% good. I'd like to sift through all the hate and violence within them and try and find the good, and work on that.
Having them killed solves, and resolves, nothing.
When someone takes the life of someone else, they forfeit their rights that you suggest they should still hold. Is it society's right to lock someone up as well? Your line says 'no' to execution, but 'yes' to imprisonment. This is your line, but not mine. This doesn't mean you are right and it doesn't mean you are wrong- it's just your line.
Comparing the death penalty to playground bullying is a reach, but I'll play along for a bit.
I definitely teach my children to stand up for themselves if that is what you are asking of me.
My daughter, in grade 2, had two kids her same age hang her from the playground apparatus. She was too heavy for them to hold and she fell to the ground without much harm other than a burn around her neck. Of course, I am pissed, but left it to the authorities to mete out their justice.
3 days of garbage duty was the 'justice'. Fair enough I guess, but, of course, the 3 days were not even up and the one kid slammed my daughter's head into her friend's face while they were lined up- causing a nosebleed for her friend and slight trauma for my daughter. Now I'm really pissed. I'm visiting the school to talk to administrators who are very sheepish. In no uncertain terms, I spell out the fact that I will become a pit bull if another incident occurs. I demanded they deal with the incident in a little more forceful and effective fashion.
The limp and lame ladder of discipline established as policy in the school system has no effect on curbing unruly behaviour: too many fireside chats and too much coddling. Policies have empowered kids to act as they wish with very little consequence. Obviously, there are bigger problems in the home where parents have neglected their disciplinary responsibilities. A really, really soft approach to discipline has begun to erode the quality of our youth sector.
That's the sort of shit that breeds people like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.
And a really, really soft approach to discipline in the real world has eroded the quality of our society.
Yeah, and most have them had no recourse to a fair trial. Also, many of those snuffed out by the State here very year are political prisoners, deemed to have committed crimes against 'State power'.
It's very fucked up, and there should be more international awareness and condemnation of it.
No, it's not an effective deterrent. The government here announced last year that it would reduce the number of executions. That's all.
Then you are a better man than me.
Or you don't love your family very much!
We are at an impasse. Thanks for being you, Byrnzie. And Hugh. And Chadwick. And PD, Godfather, Pingfah... and I'll stop there.
Some scholars argue that the death penalty is not used as it should be and that is the reason why it is not an effective deterrent.