Just watched the HBO documentary on the Cheshire Murders. For those unsure of the crime... 2 bags of shit invade a home, beat the shit out of the dad, tie up two daughters, rape the 11 year old daughter and the mother, douse the house and girls in gasoline, ignite the house, and promptly get arrested fleeing the burning building. Girls burned alive.
It actually does a decent job of presenting two sides to the DP issue. It made you think a bit.
But, despite childhood pictures, descripts of their pasts, and some silly statistics focusing on finances... these depraved monsters deserve death and I hope they get it before too many more appeals. William Petit simply wanting it... deserves it.
On a side note... the cops sat there twiddling their thumbs for 30 minutes outside the house while the last awful parts of the event transpired. Complete, bumbling, fucking fools that should be ashamed of themselves to the moment they die. This poor display of policemanship might even be more of a failure than those 2 stupid cops that allowed the naked, disoriented, and bleeding child to go back to Dahmer's house after nearly escaping (they bought Jeffrey's claim that the boy was his drunk lover).
You can reel off every depraved act known to man. Still doesn't justify state-sanctioned murder. If society believes murder is wrong, and that murderers are sick and depraved, then why stoop to their level by doing as they do?
Just watched the HBO documentary on the Cheshire Murders. For those unsure of the crime... 2 bags of shit invade a home, beat the shit out of the dad, tie up two daughters, rape the 11 year old daughter and the mother, douse the house and girls in gasoline, ignite the house, and promptly get arrested fleeing the burning building. Girls burned alive.
It actually does a decent job of presenting two sides to the DP issue. It made you think a bit.
But, despite childhood pictures, descripts of their pasts, and some silly statistics focusing on finances... these depraved monsters deserve death and I hope they get it before too many more appeals. William Petit simply wanting it... deserves it.
On a side note... the cops sat there twiddling their thumbs for 30 minutes outside the house while the last awful parts of the event transpired. Complete, bumbling, fucking fools that should be ashamed of themselves to the moment they die. This poor display of policemanship might even be more of a failure than those 2 stupid cops that allowed the naked, disoriented, and bleeding child to go back to Dahmer's house after nearly escaping (they bought Jeffrey's claim that the boy was his drunk lover).
Just watched the HBO documentary on the Cheshire Murders. For those unsure of the crime... 2 bags of shit invade a home, beat the shit out of the dad, tie up two daughters, rape the 11 year old daughter and the mother, douse the house and girls in gasoline, ignite the house, and promptly get arrested fleeing the burning building. Girls burned alive.
It actually does a decent job of presenting two sides to the DP issue. It made you think a bit.
But, despite childhood pictures, descripts of their pasts, and some silly statistics focusing on finances... these depraved monsters deserve death and I hope they get it before too many more appeals. William Petit simply wanting it... deserves it.
On a side note... the cops sat there twiddling their thumbs for 30 minutes outside the house while the last awful parts of the event transpired. Complete, bumbling, fucking fools that should be ashamed of themselves to the moment they die. This poor display of policemanship might even be more of a failure than those 2 stupid cops that allowed the naked, disoriented, and bleeding child to go back to Dahmer's house after nearly escaping (they bought Jeffrey's claim that the boy was his drunk lover).
You can reel off every depraved act known to man. Still doesn't justify state-sanctioned murder. If society believes murder is wrong, and that murderers are sick and depraved, then why stoop to their level by doing as they do?
I tend to belong to this line of thought, until it involves young children......then I struggle, and as much as I hate the DP, and the whole notion of it, some of these monsters disgust me so damn much its hard not to consider it as justifiable.
Following the case of little Daniel Pelka here in the Uk, has been heartbreakingly sad. Parents now found guilty of horrific abuse, and in the end his murder......and due to be sentenced to a life of ping pong, tv, gym and three meals a day in the UK.
Im not saying I want the death penalty here, far from it. But you know when things sit and eat away at you, and upset you to the core? Its hard not to wish death on scum like these.
I haven't read the entire thread so maybe you guys have already discussed this point. Why is it ok for someone to commit a heinous act against another human being and get off easy be receiving the death penalty? With death, their suffering is over and they never have to think again about what they have done or their own demons that may torture them. Why don't we reform our prison system and make it a miserable shit hole to live in. If you commit some atrocious crime, then you forfeit all your rights. The only thing you should be entitled to is food, shelter, clothing and medical care so we can keep you alive as long as possible to torture the shit out of you. Death? Too easy, IMO. And as Byrnzie said earlier, why do WE as a society stoop to the same level as the cretin that committed the crime? I would never kill anyone so why do I want someone elses murder on MY hands?
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I haven't read the entire thread so maybe you guys have already discussed this point. Why is it ok for someone to commit a heinous act against another human being and get off easy be receiving the death penalty? With death, their suffering is over and they never have to think again about what they have done or their own demons that may torture them. Why don't we reform our prison system and make it a miserable shit hole to live in. If you commit some atrocious crime, then you forfeit all your rights. The only thing you should be entitled to is food, shelter, clothing and medical care so we can keep you alive as long as possible to torture the shit out of you. Death? Too easy, IMO. And as Byrnzie said earlier, why do WE as a society stoop to the same level as the cretin that committed the crime? I would never kill anyone so why do I want someone elses murder on MY hands?
yes its been well covered and theres been much discussion over the use of solitary confinement in the states. There were some brilliant links to a guy who wrote about life for 25 years in a cell on his own. It sounded like utter hell. so you do make a very good point indeed.
I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?
I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?
Godfather.
unless they enjoy dwelling in some nasty monster's misery vs' a quick exit saving a lot of tax dollars
so which is it death or a life time torture ?
Godfather.
Neither. I am against the Death Penalty, it is morally wrong. Prison should be a no frills but humane place, the primary purpose of which is to deprive criminals of their freedom, not their health or sanity, and to keep dangerous people away from the rest of the population.
Solitary confinement should be used when a prisoner is a danger to themselves or other prisoners, not for the purpose of torturing somebody.
The justice system should not be there to exact our base desire for revenge.
so which is it death or a life time torture ?
Godfather.
Neither. I am against the Death Penalty, it is morally wrong. Prison should be a no frills but humane place, the primary purpose of which is to deprive criminals of their freedom, not their health or sanity, and to keep dangerous people away from the rest of the population.
Solitary confinement should be used when a prisoner is a danger to themselves or other prisoners, not for the purpose of torturing somebody.
The justice system should not be there to exact our base desire for revenge.
monsters get dental work at a constant. many many many americans haven't seen a dentist in years & can't afford too.
I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?
Godfather.
Maybe.....maybe not. I just finished reading Damien Echols "Life after Death" and his descriptions of sitting on death row were harrowing. The problem comes when deciding guilt/innocence and nothing is ever as black and white as we would like it to be. I am generally a pretty soft hearted person so I don't like the idea of torture in any way but if you hurt children then fuck you I've got a hard heart at that point. Is it still torture to get the basics in life? Food, shelter, clothing, medical care would be granted. But some of the luxuries they have in prisons are insane. Of course, I am really for a complete overhaul of our system since supposedly prison is supposed to rehabilitate a person (obviously not the goal if you are on death row) which I do not think it does. Then again, I think we need a complete overhaul of our society to eliminate extreme poverty which I believe is the root of many of our problems today.
I understand what you are saying Godfather, I know that I (and many on here) am a paradox in many ways and the idea of torturing someone for any reason is against everything I believe in but there are exceptions to the rule and if someone is proven guilty and is on death row then you've committed some heinous crime and all bets are off.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
so which is it death or a life time torture ?
Godfather.
Neither. I am against the Death Penalty, it is morally wrong. Prison should be a no frills but humane place, the primary purpose of which is to deprive criminals of their freedom, not their health or sanity, and to keep dangerous people away from the rest of the population.
Solitary confinement should be used when a prisoner is a danger to themselves or other prisoners, not for the purpose of torturing somebody.
The justice system should not be there to exact our base desire for revenge.
I think this is what I was trying to say, not very successfully!
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?
Godfather.
interesting points, and its essential to deal with objectively and not fall into the 'if someone hurt one of my children' subjectivity.
I think people feel that the criminals at the worst end of the scale that presently qualify for a death sentence where one is still administered, deserve severe punishment, whether that constitutes torture or not. I am one of those who doesn't like any form of suffering, but there has to be a deterrent. Im sure the prisons that have solitary are dire dire places, but remain fitting for the monsters that commit the most obscene crimes. To be quite honest, their mental state is of little concern to many given the crimes they were able to commit.
I think the American system is far more fitting than the UK system in terms of punishment for a crime. I visit the prisons out here, and seriously many of them are far from a deterrent.
I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?
Godfather.
interesting points, and its essential to deal with objectively and not fall into the 'if someone hurt one of my children' subjectivity.
I think people feel that the criminals at the worst end of the scale that presently qualify for a death sentence where one is still administered, deserve severe punishment, whether that constitutes torture or not. I am one of those who doesn't like any form of suffering, but there has to be a deterrent. Im sure the prisons that have solitary are dire dire places, but remain fitting for the monsters that commit the most obscene crimes. To be quite honest, their mental state is of little concern to many given the crimes they were able to commit.
I think the American system is far more fitting than the UK system in terms of punishment for a crime. I visit the prisons out here, and seriously many of them are far from a deterrent.
I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?
Godfather.
interesting points, and its essential to deal with objectively and not fall into the 'if someone hurt one of my children' subjectivity.
I think people feel that the criminals at the worst end of the scale that presently qualify for a death sentence where one is still administered, deserve severe punishment, whether that constitutes torture or not. I am one of those who doesn't like any form of suffering, but there has to be a deterrent. Im sure the prisons that have solitary are dire dire places, but remain fitting for the monsters that commit the most obscene crimes. To be quite honest, their mental state is of little concern to many given the crimes they were able to commit.
I think the American system is far more fitting than the UK system in terms of punishment for a crime. I visit the prisons out here, and seriously many of them are far from a deterrent.
I see your point "their mental state is of little concern to many given the crimes they were able to commit"
so then why is a death sentance different ? it just goes to prove that many people that are aginst the death penalty still want the offender to suffer in some way for the rest of their lives, I just find it odd that some find the death penalty a cruel punishment and still opt for a life time of mental anguish which in some cases leeds to death one way or another be it by another inmate or suiside or "natural causes" brought on by the brains abilty to shut down the entire bodys system when it is over loaded with pain,so is a death sentanse handed down by those means different than one being handed down by the state ?
I'm not looking for argument I'm just pointing out that some peoples thoughts on the death penalty couyld be one in the same to a degree.
Im not a fan of either punishments, but the death sentence stands out as a hideous form of punishment to me as it involves both instant death and mental torture combined. OK the torture is brief, but that person on the day or week leading to his execution knows that as the seconds tick down he is closer to a pre determined date of death. When they come to collect him for the 'walk'.....that must be horrendous. I know these people committed awful crimes, but I find it uncomprehend able to be in that situation knowing you would die in an hours time.
so which is it death or a life time torture ?
Godfather.
Neither. I am against the Death Penalty, it is morally wrong. Prison should be a no frills but humane place, the primary purpose of which is to deprive criminals of their freedom, not their health or sanity, and to keep dangerous people away from the rest of the population.
Solitary confinement should be used when a prisoner is a danger to themselves or other prisoners, not for the purpose of torturing somebody.
The justice system should not be there to exact our base desire for revenge.
You might call it 'revenge'... William Petit and countless others call it 'justice'.
When a depraved monster acts inhumanely towards a beautiful, innocent little child... our 'justice' system (not revenge system) needs to reflect our level of disdain and intolerance for such behaviour.
When a scumbag rapes, mutilates and murders children... they should not serve time like an accountant who has embezzled money. They have more than earned a punishment that meets the level of their crime.
The survivors should be the justice system's priority- not the child's murderer. In this particular case, the Petit family demanded the state seek execution and fortunately, the state has granted their wishes. Who are we to sit back, relatively unaffected by the crime (although if you have a heart you are), and reduce the survivors to onlookers because our values don't mesh with their needs?
Petit never asked for these shitbags to enter their home, beat him with a bat, rape his wife and 11 year old daughter, douse the girls in gasoline, and light the house on fire as if it was a day's work. These assholes more than deserve the worst thing that could happen to them. One is asking to be executed immediately while the state drags their feet. Grant him his wish. Why must people feel as if they know better in the aftermath of such a horrific event?
it's not a matter of knowing what is right ... to be against the death penalty is not so much about perceived justice but simply a value system representing itself ...
i choose not to eat dogs and cats but will gladly eat a chicken or fish ... it's not to say its right or wrong to do either but simply my personal beliefs representing itself ... of course in all manners of life we have our hypocrisies but they do not necessarily lessen or enhance our decisions ...
i choose to be opposed to the death penalty because as a society using violence to solve problems serves no purpose but to allow that violence is a reasonable tool ... it's for the same reasons i am anti-war ...
There is no place for emotional outbursts in the justice system. Emotions cloud judgement, they must be set aside.
A fair justice system is a rational, logical one, not one based upon our "feelings".
Emotional "outbursts", no (although perfectly understood how they'd happen as we're not robots)...but there've been many a trial where the victims' families can speak their mind and heart when it comes to sentencing these sick fucks.
Of course, victim impact is important too, but there's a good reason why we don't let victims, or those personally affected by the case decide upon sentencing. They are not rational or objective, we need objective minds to decide these sorts of things.
Im not a fan of either punishments, but the death sentence stands out as a hideous form of punishment to me as it involves both instant death and mental torture combined. OK the torture is brief, but that person on the day or week leading to his execution knows that as the seconds tick down he is closer to a pre determined date of death. When they come to collect him for the 'walk'.....that must be horrendous. I know these people committed awful crimes, but I find it uncomprehend able to be in that situation knowing you would die in an hours time.
The Petit girls faced much worse. Keep them in mind when you are feeling sorry for these depraved losers.
As much as an execution and the wait for it might be difficult for people such as these two bags of shit... oh well. These assholes didn't need to be sentenced to death. If they had only acted like half a human being we wouldn't be discussing them right now. Go ahead and rob the place... but just stop yourself from raping the girls and lighting them on fire to burn alive.
I feel that many DP opponents would change their minds- just like the religious Petit family has done- if it was them lying awake at night thinking of their daughter, after having been raped and tormented, struggling to walk while burning alive (not to mention the other daughter and wife who had their ordeals as well).
I offer full support for people such as William Petit. Will the execution of these two ease your suffering somewhat, William? Yes? Then you may have it. What's that, Joshua? You wish for forgiveness? Sorry. No apology can excuse your heinous act.
There are also numerous examples of people who have been horribly wronged forgiving and pleading clemency for their attackers too, does that mean we should just let them off?
Of course, victim impact is important too, but there's a good reason why we don't let victims, or those personally affected by the case decide upon sentencing. They are not rational or objective, we need objective minds to decide these sorts of things.
By objective minds do you mean only minds that are strongly opposed to the DP? The process that served this case decided to sentence these murderers to death.
And it would be impossible for any human being to remain unaffected by such an event. You don't think jurors were personally affected by the case they were weighing in on after seeing crime scene photos and hearing horrific testimony? The very nature of such crimes cannot be ignored when deciding how to respond. Of course removing elements of the crime would work well for the defence by not damning the accused and emotionally influencing jurors; but I don't think sugar coating murders is in the interest of justice. If a panel of jurors and a judge is sickened by what they have learned throughout a trial... then there is a reason for this and they should respond accordingly.
There are also numerous examples of people who have been horribly wronged forgiving and pleading clemency for their attackers too, does that mean we should just let them off?
Come on. You were reasonable for a bit... but this is a ridiculous statement. If we let them off... then we would be introducing a homicidal maniac back into society. We need to safeguard society even if someone wished to forgive them.
Now... if survivors wish to pardon the murderer of their child from a death sentence because this would help them sleep better at night... sure. We would be servicing the needs of the survivors and this is where our priorities should be in my mind.
Im not a fan of either punishments, but the death sentence stands out as a hideous form of punishment to me as it involves both instant death and mental torture combined. OK the torture is brief, but that person on the day or week leading to his execution knows that as the seconds tick down he is closer to a pre determined date of death. When they come to collect him for the 'walk'.....that must be horrendous. I know these people committed awful crimes, but I find it uncomprehend able to be in that situation knowing you would die in an hours time.
The Petit girls faced much worse. Keep them in mind when you are feeling sorry for these depraved losers.
As much as an execution and the wait for it might be difficult for people such as these two bags of shit... oh well. These assholes didn't need to be sentenced to death. If they had only acted like half a human being we wouldn't be discussing them right now. Go ahead and rob the place... but just stop yourself from raping the girls and lighting them on fire to burn alive.
I feel that many DP opponents would change their minds- just like the religious Petit family has done- if it was them lying awake at night thinking of their daughter, after having been raped and tormented, struggling to walk while burning alive (not to mention the other daughter and wife who had their ordeals as well).
I offer full support for people such as William Petit. Will the execution of these two ease your suffering somewhat, William? Yes? Then you may have it. What's that, Joshua? You wish for forgiveness? Sorry. No apology can excuse your heinous act.
well, I cant disagree with any of that. I do know for a fact that when considering these things subjectively, my whole stance changes. And that's the problem.....I always try and remain objective, but if this was my family....I know NOTHING would make me sane ever again. Its horrendous, and whilst I know little of this case, I have read enough here to know that these people technically revoked their human rights when they acted in a way that revoked their victims.
Im not saying what my beliefs are are correct or even make sense. Im just typing down my thought process......should we care what these people go through on their walk to death? I dunno, but im that type of person who struggles with the concept of death generally, so to place that on someone, even a monster and schedule is hard for me to comprehend.
Do I think these people deserve any better? No, but that doesn't make it easier to digest.
Im not a fan of either punishments, but the death sentence stands out as a hideous form of punishment to me as it involves both instant death and mental torture combined. OK the torture is brief, but that person on the day or week leading to his execution knows that as the seconds tick down he is closer to a pre determined date of death. When they come to collect him for the 'walk'.....that must be horrendous. I know these people committed awful crimes, but I find it uncomprehend able to be in that situation knowing you would die in an hours time.
The Petit girls faced much worse. Keep them in mind when you are feeling sorry for these depraved losers.
As much as an execution and the wait for it might be difficult for people such as these two bags of shit... oh well. These assholes didn't need to be sentenced to death. If they had only acted like half a human being we wouldn't be discussing them right now. Go ahead and rob the place... but just stop yourself from raping the girls and lighting them on fire to burn alive.
I feel that many DP opponents would change their minds- just like the religious Petit family has done- if it was them lying awake at night thinking of their daughter, after having been raped and tormented, struggling to walk while burning alive (not to mention the other daughter and wife who had their ordeals as well).
I offer full support for people such as William Petit. Will the execution of these two ease your suffering somewhat, William? Yes? Then you may have it. What's that, Joshua? You wish for forgiveness? Sorry. No apology can excuse your heinous act.
well, I cant disagree with any of that. I do know for a fact that when considering these things subjectively, my whole stance changes. And that's the problem.....I always try and remain objective, but if this was my family....I know NOTHING would make me sane ever again. Its horrendous, and whilst I know little of this case, I have read enough here to know that these people technically revoked their human rights when they acted in a way that revoked their victims.
Im not saying what my beliefs are are correct or even make sense. Im just typing down my thought process......should we care what these people go through on their walk to death? I dunno, but im that type of person who struggles with the concept of death generally, so to place that on someone, even a monster and schedule is hard for me to comprehend.
Do I think these people deserve any better? No, but that doesn't make it easier to digest.
PD...
This is all discussion. All on this forum are not the people we need to be worrying about- we have all taken time and energy to discuss a controversial topic. I sincerely value every effort and appreciate the efforts made on the part of others to have me think about my position. I have my view and you have yours. Neither is right or wrong- they are just our personal feelings on a difficult subject.
In the first post, I spoke to the fact that the film did make me think about and acknowledge the contrasting viewpoint to mine. I just remain steadfast in my position to be firmly entrenched in the corner of those who never asked for what they got and are suffering the most.
If people would just treat each other better... we wouldn't need to discuss what to do with them after the fact. Nobody wants to deal with a couple of depraved murderers... we are forced to deal with them. This point is where people differ.
I'm not saying execution is definitively right or wrong... I believe it is and arguing for it is a method of checking myself.
I have spent a lot of years opposed to the death penalty, however coming here and seeing the flipside is interesting as a gauge on the strength of my feelings and conviction. It is impossible to disagree with many a post here which favours the DP.
I just had an "early morning w/ no coffee yet thought"..
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?
Godfather.
I can't speak for anyone on the issue but myself, but when I say that solitary is worse than death, I mean that not to placate myself, it's more of a way to tell people who are pro-DP that that should be enough for them.
I am against all mental and physical torture of any means. I do not believe the ends justify the means.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Comments
You can reel off every depraved act known to man. Still doesn't justify state-sanctioned murder. If society believes murder is wrong, and that murderers are sick and depraved, then why stoop to their level by doing as they do?
That Dahmer was a despicable monster.
I tend to belong to this line of thought, until it involves young children......then I struggle, and as much as I hate the DP, and the whole notion of it, some of these monsters disgust me so damn much its hard not to consider it as justifiable.
Following the case of little Daniel Pelka here in the Uk, has been heartbreakingly sad. Parents now found guilty of horrific abuse, and in the end his murder......and due to be sentenced to a life of ping pong, tv, gym and three meals a day in the UK.
Im not saying I want the death penalty here, far from it. But you know when things sit and eat away at you, and upset you to the core? Its hard not to wish death on scum like these.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
yes its been well covered and theres been much discussion over the use of solitary confinement in the states. There were some brilliant links to a guy who wrote about life for 25 years in a cell on his own. It sounded like utter hell. so you do make a very good point indeed.
it seems as though the people on the train aginst the death penalty use the argument of life in solitary confinement
or in a small prison sell which is more painfull than death and in my mind that is a form of torture...is it not ? and some of those people that argue for life rather than the death penalty also argue that water bording and other forms of torture to get info from terorist is wrong...so which is it death or a life time torture ? I'm sure that if most of you worked in the prison system and were witness to the sanity of a man slowly rotting in a cell and hearing the screams of mental pain and suffering you may re-think your stance on the issue...maybe ?
Godfather.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Neither. I am against the Death Penalty, it is morally wrong. Prison should be a no frills but humane place, the primary purpose of which is to deprive criminals of their freedom, not their health or sanity, and to keep dangerous people away from the rest of the population.
Solitary confinement should be used when a prisoner is a danger to themselves or other prisoners, not for the purpose of torturing somebody.
The justice system should not be there to exact our base desire for revenge.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Maybe.....maybe not. I just finished reading Damien Echols "Life after Death" and his descriptions of sitting on death row were harrowing. The problem comes when deciding guilt/innocence and nothing is ever as black and white as we would like it to be. I am generally a pretty soft hearted person so I don't like the idea of torture in any way but if you hurt children then fuck you I've got a hard heart at that point. Is it still torture to get the basics in life? Food, shelter, clothing, medical care would be granted. But some of the luxuries they have in prisons are insane. Of course, I am really for a complete overhaul of our system since supposedly prison is supposed to rehabilitate a person (obviously not the goal if you are on death row) which I do not think it does. Then again, I think we need a complete overhaul of our society to eliminate extreme poverty which I believe is the root of many of our problems today.
I understand what you are saying Godfather, I know that I (and many on here) am a paradox in many ways and the idea of torturing someone for any reason is against everything I believe in but there are exceptions to the rule and if someone is proven guilty and is on death row then you've committed some heinous crime and all bets are off.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
I think this is what I was trying to say, not very successfully!
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
interesting points, and its essential to deal with objectively and not fall into the 'if someone hurt one of my children' subjectivity.
I think people feel that the criminals at the worst end of the scale that presently qualify for a death sentence where one is still administered, deserve severe punishment, whether that constitutes torture or not. I am one of those who doesn't like any form of suffering, but there has to be a deterrent. Im sure the prisons that have solitary are dire dire places, but remain fitting for the monsters that commit the most obscene crimes. To be quite honest, their mental state is of little concern to many given the crimes they were able to commit.
I think the American system is far more fitting than the UK system in terms of punishment for a crime. I visit the prisons out here, and seriously many of them are far from a deterrent.
interesting points, and its essential to deal with objectively and not fall into the 'if someone hurt one of my children' subjectivity.
I think people feel that the criminals at the worst end of the scale that presently qualify for a death sentence where one is still administered, deserve severe punishment, whether that constitutes torture or not. I am one of those who doesn't like any form of suffering, but there has to be a deterrent. Im sure the prisons that have solitary are dire dire places, but remain fitting for the monsters that commit the most obscene crimes. To be quite honest, their mental state is of little concern to many given the crimes they were able to commit.
I think the American system is far more fitting than the UK system in terms of punishment for a crime. I visit the prisons out here, and seriously many of them are far from a deterrent.
I see your point "their mental state is of little concern to many given the crimes they were able to commit"
so then why is a death sentance different ? it just goes to prove that many people that are aginst the death penalty still want the offender to suffer in some way for the rest of their lives, I just find it odd that some find the death penalty a cruel punishment and still opt for a life time of mental anguish which in some cases leeds to death one way or another be it by another inmate or suiside or "natural causes" brought on by the brains abilty to shut down the entire bodys system when it is over loaded with pain,so is a death sentanse handed down by those means different than one being handed down by the state ?
I'm not looking for argument I'm just pointing out that some peoples thoughts on the death penalty couyld be one in the same to a degree.
Godfather.
Im not a fan of either punishments, but the death sentence stands out as a hideous form of punishment to me as it involves both instant death and mental torture combined. OK the torture is brief, but that person on the day or week leading to his execution knows that as the seconds tick down he is closer to a pre determined date of death. When they come to collect him for the 'walk'.....that must be horrendous. I know these people committed awful crimes, but I find it uncomprehend able to be in that situation knowing you would die in an hours time.
You might call it 'revenge'... William Petit and countless others call it 'justice'.
When a depraved monster acts inhumanely towards a beautiful, innocent little child... our 'justice' system (not revenge system) needs to reflect our level of disdain and intolerance for such behaviour.
When a scumbag rapes, mutilates and murders children... they should not serve time like an accountant who has embezzled money. They have more than earned a punishment that meets the level of their crime.
The survivors should be the justice system's priority- not the child's murderer. In this particular case, the Petit family demanded the state seek execution and fortunately, the state has granted their wishes. Who are we to sit back, relatively unaffected by the crime (although if you have a heart you are), and reduce the survivors to onlookers because our values don't mesh with their needs?
Petit never asked for these shitbags to enter their home, beat him with a bat, rape his wife and 11 year old daughter, douse the girls in gasoline, and light the house on fire as if it was a day's work. These assholes more than deserve the worst thing that could happen to them. One is asking to be executed immediately while the state drags their feet. Grant him his wish. Why must people feel as if they know better in the aftermath of such a horrific event?
A fair justice system is a rational, logical one, not one based upon our "feelings".
i choose not to eat dogs and cats but will gladly eat a chicken or fish ... it's not to say its right or wrong to do either but simply my personal beliefs representing itself ... of course in all manners of life we have our hypocrisies but they do not necessarily lessen or enhance our decisions ...
i choose to be opposed to the death penalty because as a society using violence to solve problems serves no purpose but to allow that violence is a reasonable tool ... it's for the same reasons i am anti-war ...
The Petit girls faced much worse. Keep them in mind when you are feeling sorry for these depraved losers.
As much as an execution and the wait for it might be difficult for people such as these two bags of shit... oh well. These assholes didn't need to be sentenced to death. If they had only acted like half a human being we wouldn't be discussing them right now. Go ahead and rob the place... but just stop yourself from raping the girls and lighting them on fire to burn alive.
I feel that many DP opponents would change their minds- just like the religious Petit family has done- if it was them lying awake at night thinking of their daughter, after having been raped and tormented, struggling to walk while burning alive (not to mention the other daughter and wife who had their ordeals as well).
I offer full support for people such as William Petit. Will the execution of these two ease your suffering somewhat, William? Yes? Then you may have it. What's that, Joshua? You wish for forgiveness? Sorry. No apology can excuse your heinous act.
By objective minds do you mean only minds that are strongly opposed to the DP? The process that served this case decided to sentence these murderers to death.
And it would be impossible for any human being to remain unaffected by such an event. You don't think jurors were personally affected by the case they were weighing in on after seeing crime scene photos and hearing horrific testimony? The very nature of such crimes cannot be ignored when deciding how to respond. Of course removing elements of the crime would work well for the defence by not damning the accused and emotionally influencing jurors; but I don't think sugar coating murders is in the interest of justice. If a panel of jurors and a judge is sickened by what they have learned throughout a trial... then there is a reason for this and they should respond accordingly.
Come on. You were reasonable for a bit... but this is a ridiculous statement. If we let them off... then we would be introducing a homicidal maniac back into society. We need to safeguard society even if someone wished to forgive them.
Now... if survivors wish to pardon the murderer of their child from a death sentence because this would help them sleep better at night... sure. We would be servicing the needs of the survivors and this is where our priorities should be in my mind.
well, I cant disagree with any of that. I do know for a fact that when considering these things subjectively, my whole stance changes. And that's the problem.....I always try and remain objective, but if this was my family....I know NOTHING would make me sane ever again. Its horrendous, and whilst I know little of this case, I have read enough here to know that these people technically revoked their human rights when they acted in a way that revoked their victims.
Im not saying what my beliefs are are correct or even make sense. Im just typing down my thought process......should we care what these people go through on their walk to death? I dunno, but im that type of person who struggles with the concept of death generally, so to place that on someone, even a monster and schedule is hard for me to comprehend.
Do I think these people deserve any better? No, but that doesn't make it easier to digest.
PD...
This is all discussion. All on this forum are not the people we need to be worrying about- we have all taken time and energy to discuss a controversial topic. I sincerely value every effort and appreciate the efforts made on the part of others to have me think about my position. I have my view and you have yours. Neither is right or wrong- they are just our personal feelings on a difficult subject.
In the first post, I spoke to the fact that the film did make me think about and acknowledge the contrasting viewpoint to mine. I just remain steadfast in my position to be firmly entrenched in the corner of those who never asked for what they got and are suffering the most.
If people would just treat each other better... we wouldn't need to discuss what to do with them after the fact. Nobody wants to deal with a couple of depraved murderers... we are forced to deal with them. This point is where people differ.
I'm not saying execution is definitively right or wrong... I believe it is and arguing for it is a method of checking myself.
I have spent a lot of years opposed to the death penalty, however coming here and seeing the flipside is interesting as a gauge on the strength of my feelings and conviction. It is impossible to disagree with many a post here which favours the DP.
I can't speak for anyone on the issue but myself, but when I say that solitary is worse than death, I mean that not to placate myself, it's more of a way to tell people who are pro-DP that that should be enough for them.
I am against all mental and physical torture of any means. I do not believe the ends justify the means.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014