Morality Without God

redrock

mickeyrat wrote:

the "moral" thing to do would be to let this thread die peacefully. But what do I know?

Especially it hasn't been about 'morality without god' for pages. Just about god... again :roll:

EmBleve

imho morals can absolutely exist without the idea of God. Similar to ethical considerations, morals can be intrinsically known regardless of the topics of God or religion. :P

chadwick

how did we all get here with or without morality? 138.7% - 140% of all people feel wonderful even gay, before, during, and after their actions of kindness.

2% feel erect and joyous after slaughtering all living creatures, including humans, they are without Morality is my guess. yet tickled pink they just ate their cousin's whatnot for breakfast.

moral of the story... it's probably a good idea to have a couple morals inside of you

the earth and sky are watching :shock:

do not roast your father's junk for dinner. cavemen are behind us now. go to the market. buy hotdogs with a smile. do not slap the cash register lady with your rotten ass elk hide you carry around.

catefrances

so heres something ive been tossing around.. when did our society live without a God so that our morality could evolve on its own devoid of a Gods influence?

sure i can say my morality doesnt come from God.. but id be lying. yes.. yes.. cate the great atheist just said her morals are grounded in God.. or religion. thats not to say they continue or will continue to. i look back through my familys history and as far as i have seen, there is no point where God wasnt at least allowed entrance. my father who was educated within the catholic school system and who has been my greatest teacher is an atheist. i identified as an atheist when i was 11 years old. before than i susoect i was more agnostic than a believer. i was educated in the state system.. supposedly secular but with weekly RE classes. despite what my ex described just last week as my militant atheism i will never be convinced our morals came from some innate goodness inside us without outside guidance.. no matter how we now hold that influence.. or even if we refuse to acknowledge it.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

I still believe since we created god, we created morality, so I think humans are innately (word?) moral regardless.

catefrances

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I still believe since we created god, we created morality, so I think humans are innately (word?) moral regardless.

im 99% with you on that but because ostensibly weve not lived without God as part of our so called civilised society i cant be absolute.


did we create God in order to shape our morality? if we had not created God how would how morals be different?

Hugh Freaking Dillon

catefrances wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I still believe since we created god, we created morality, so I think humans are innately (word?) moral regardless.

im 99% with you on that but because ostensibly weve not lived without God as part of our so called civilised society i cant be absolute.


did we create God in order to shape our morality? if we had not created God how would how morals be different?

we created god to control the masses, and the ten commandments were the laws that were created with him for that purpose. so that basic moral fibre came from man, not from any supreme being.

I think there was originally 15 commandments but someone broke the 3rd tablet and just said "aw, it takes too long to chip that stone, fuck it, we'll leave it at 10".

ShimmyMommy

catefrances wrote:

so heres something ive been tossing around.. when did our society live without a God so that our morality could evolve on its own devoid of a Gods influence?

sure i can say my morality doesnt come from God.. but id be lying. yes.. yes.. cate the great atheist just said her morals are grounded in God.. or religion. thats not to say they continue or will continue to. i look back through my familys history and as far as i have seen, there is no point where God wasnt at least allowed entrance. my father who was educated within the catholic school system and who has been my greatest teacher is an atheist. i identified as an atheist when i was 11 years old. before than i susoect i was more agnostic than a believer. i was educated in the state system.. supposedly secular but with weekly RE classes. despite what my ex described just last week as my militant atheism i will never be convinced our morals came from some innate goodness inside us without outside guidance.. no matter how we now hold that influence.. or even if we refuse to acknowledge it.

I have been thinking the same for many years. I believe (no pun intended) that every single choice we make is a moral one. Each choice is always very personal, regardless of our influences in life. Each of us own the final choice, the pros and cons of that decision's outcome. So we determine our own morality in that effect.

You know, there was and incident between me and my religion teacher back in high school (I was raised RC and went to RC schools). I remember asking her, "Does 'God' really care or know we exist? What would we do if we ever did meet him and then he said that he didn't care, what then? What would all of the thing we have done mean at that point?" Let's say, if looks could kill, I would have been crucified.

So, I guess, we are saying the same thing.

catefrances

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I still believe since we created god, we created morality, so I think humans are innately (word?) moral regardless.

so i wonder why we felt the need to create agent God/s. why did we need for him to keep us in line? why couldnt we just be 'good' without God/s i wonder?

catefrances

ShimmyMommy wrote:

...You know, there was and incident between me and my religion teacher back in high school (I was raised RC and went to RC schools). I remember asking her, "Does 'God' really care or know we exist? What would we do if we ever did meet him and then he said that he didn't care, what then? What would all of the thing we have done mean at that point?" Let's say, if looks could kill, I would have been crucified.

...

yeah it wasnt good to ask question of a catholic priest. seems he didnt have the answers i required.. if fact he didnt have ANY answers. perhaps if hed have not dismissed me and tossed me out of class id not have thrown my hands up and thought you know what there are no answers fuck this bullshit.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

catefrances wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I still believe since we created god, we created morality, so I think humans are innately (word?) moral regardless.

so i wonder why we felt the need to create agent God/s. why did we need for him to keep us in line? why couldnt we just be 'good' without God/s i wonder?

I think it still applies today........not just with God, but with law enforcement and going to jail. We need a way to keep people in line.........they for some reason need a reason to fear reprisal. Without order chaos reigns. Back then it was fear of the afterlife, now it's just fear of serving life.

not everyone is as brilliant and responsible as ten club members.

ShimmyMommy

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

not everyone is as brilliant and responsible as ten club members.

redrock

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I still believe since we created god, we created morality, so I think humans are innately (word?) moral regardless.

I agree with you when you say that 'morality' (whatever one considers is moral) is innate though it probably wasn't percieved as anything one needed to define. I believe it stems from survival. Ancient man HAD to 'behave' in certain ways to ensure his survival . Ethics of reprocity (the 'big' moral) within his cluster would have been an essential trait as survival of the group was paramount to his/hers.

Now, when man decided there was a 'god', attached their values/emotions to this god (ie love, compassion, etc.) and man decided to attach morals to this 'god', that is something completely different. These 'morals', spread via the 'word' (doesn't have to be bible or religion as such) are 'controlling'. It's obvious as what is considered 'morality' has changed over the centuries, is different in various cultures, etc. The 'innate' morality is the same for all (unless you are a phsycopath!).

hostis

catefrances wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I still believe since we created god, we created morality, so I think humans are innately (word?) moral regardless.

so i wonder why we felt the need to create agent God/s. why did we need for him to keep us in line? why couldnt we just be 'good' without God/s i wonder?

My view is that God was the generalised umbrella used for things that we couldnt explain. He was used to explain the stars, evolution (creationism if you really are that insistent/blind/hardheaded*). As humans evolved and we became aware of our own mortality, he was created to give people hope / faith and the confidence to believe that close loved ones are still there waiting for us on 'the other side'. I would love to be proved wrong on this, dearly I would, but just cant believe it myself.

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I still believe since we created god, we created morality, so I think humans are innately (word?) moral regardless.

are you sure of your self ? there is proof that even primitive man co- existed and had some practice's
that suggested that they had some spirtual belief's, loooong before civilized man.

Godfather

redrock

Prehistoric man did have some 'beliefs' but the assumption is made that these stemmed from fear/awe of the unknown (mainly natural phenomena such as lightening or thunder). This, archeologists 'interpreted' by looking at remains and artifacts that have been unearthed. Eg, burial sites where some prehistoric people were buried with tools (which may suggest they didn't know what came after death), etc., whilst others have evidence of heads of the dead being bashed in and brains eaten (magic? eating the 'power' of the deceased for gain?)! Prehistoric art a well... fertility symbols (goddesses as we, modern man, see it?), etc.

But it doesn't seem there was a 'god' as such with prehistoric man, more awe/appeasement of nature type 'rituals'. But... 'morality' did exist from beginning of times!

chadwick

i'd like to read some examples from you good people here on what you believe having no morality means
simple sentences without all the bullshit, don't get yourselves to worked up and stuff.

ShimmyMommy

chadwick wrote:

i'd like to read some examples from you good people here on what you believe having no morality means
simple sentences without all the bullshit, don't get yourselves to worked up and stuff.

http://www.peopleforgood.ca/

I joined.

redrock

chadwick wrote:

i'd like to read some examples from you good people here on what you believe having no morality means
simple sentences without all the bullshit, don't get yourselves to worked up and stuff.

Hmmm.. difficult.... Morals are just a set of standards in social context (basic ones right or wrong, maybe?). But it's about what is considered right or wrong by society (and this is different from culture to culture). So, in my opinion, being amoral would just be someone who deems that these standards don't apply?

A bit like the law.. .it's against the law to jaywalk but you still do it, not because you are against the law but because there are no cars so you do not see the use of the little red man?

Or is that too bullshit of an answer? :? Not sure how to phrase it differently.

chadwick

redrock wrote:

chadwick wrote:

i'd like to read some examples from you good people here on what you believe having no morality means
simple sentences without all the bullshit, don't get yourselves to worked up and stuff.

Hmmm.. difficult.... Morals are just a set of standards in social context (basic ones right or wrong, maybe?). But it's about what is considered right or wrong by society (and this is different from culture to culture). So, in my opinion, being amoral would just be someone who deems that these standards don't apply?

A bit like the law.. .it's against the law to jaywalk but you still do it, not because you are against the law but because there are no cars so you do not see the use of the little red man?

Or is that too bullshit of an answer? :? Not sure how to phrase it differently.

so one culture can eat their dad and mom for dinner in a cave
another think that's a bad idea?

one culture smears cow dung in their hair and beat seniors with rakes.
another culture says, wow, you folks are smelly and evil?

i know i know...im a weirdo
that's how i roll

my morals (if i :evil: had any ) are different than yours, yes/no?