I fail to see how Gimme learning that the most famous line of one of the most famous speeches of the most famous President ever was in fact, just that, is getting owned.
But take it how ever you can get it man.
considering i, like most americans already knew that...but whatever. keep condescending to me...
leave me out of your posts and discuss the thread topic. thanks. or else all of these threads are going to start getting closed because you derailed them, and nobody wants that.
and most likely only if reported will they be looked into and closed
Lincoln still didn't take all guns away. he still wanted southern folk to have guns even after the war ended. America has guns, don't like it, leave. is that what it is coming down to?
i think most people are scared of guns because of tv, movies, and the inability to pick one up and figure out how to shoot the thing.
Actually, the majority of people (in here, at least), I feel don't like the laws that make it too easy to get high powered weapons with excessive magazine limits. Many of us see senseless accidents and/or crazy people who get guns legally and kill innocent people.
Also, a shotgun blast missed my head by a very slight margin a few years back. THAT put things into perspective a bit for me and the two friends who were in the room at the time.
But, yeah, i'd be willing to bet there are a lot of people who put on the news and see that the first 2-3 stories always have to do with a young person being shot dead, and maybe have an adverse attitude towards guns.
cold weather effects guns in a manner of uncoolness. never unloaded a shotgun in your home after hunting in extreme cold conditions. safety was on. i tried pumping the first shell out of the gun. it fucking blasted a hole up through the ceiling. yes, the safety was on and the gun was pointed away from people.
those are the gun safety skills i was taught since i was a baby.
like you, i never hurt or killed anyone when my gun went off by itself.
again... extremely cold weather will fuck shit up
Thats crazy...I did not know that.
It wasnt cold in my situation. I walked into a room where my friend/roomate was cleaning/reassembling a shotgun. He was sitting down and I was standing a few feet away. I still have no idea how it went off, but it shot a hole through the ceiling (and out the roof) right above my head... Couldnt hear out of one ear for a week or so.
Thats crazy...I did not know that.
It wasnt cold in my situation. I walked into a room where my friend/roomate was cleaning/reassembling a shotgun. He was sitting down and I was standing a few feet away. I still have no idea how it went off, but it shot a hole through the ceiling (and out the roof) right above my head... Couldnt hear out of one ear for a week or so.
that is why one never points a gun loaded or unloaded at anyone, ever. the barrel is lowered to the ground or raised to the sky. indoors is a bad place to load or unload a gun like a shotgun or rifle that holds many shells all stuffed up into the gun. that darn cold weather makes things brittle and all jam up, weird shit happens. just because you pull the trigger doesn't mean it will fire, maybe the pin is froze in place.
i heard of a guy crossing a fence out in the woods during a cold winter's day out hunting. he placed his gun across the barbedwire fence... kaboom
gun goes off
safety was on
finger not on trigger
it was only probably -20f degrees
never aim a gun in anyone's direction unless they are a child predator or something monsterous like that
then it is coolbeans and stuff :twisted: :evil: :twisted:
I fail to see how Gimme learning that the most famous line of one of the most famous speeches of the most famous President ever was in fact, just that, is getting owned.
But take it how ever you can get it man.
considering i, like most americans already knew that...but whatever. keep condescending to me...
leave me out of your posts and discuss the thread topic. thanks. or else all of these threads are going to start getting closed because you derailed them, and nobody wants that.
and most likely only if reported will they be looked into and closed
Why don't we post some facts and studies.
All numbers will be per-capita (usually per 100,000), starting from this page, the drop-down will show other results: http://http://www.nationmaster.com/g...lts-per-capita
Assaults: US 7.6 - UK 7.6 - Aus 7.0
Burglaries: US 7.1 - UK 13.8 - Aus 21.7
Car Thefts: US 3.9 - UK 5.6 - Aus 6.9
Murder: US .043 - UK .014 - Aus .015
Rapes: US .301 - UK .142 - Aus .778
Robberies: US 1.39 - UK 1.57 - Aus 1.16
Total Crimes: US 80.1 - UK 85.6 - Aus {No data}
"There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually."
"In the U.S. for 2006, there were 30,896 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,883; Homicide 12,791; Accident 642; Legal Intervention 360; Undetermined 220."
•Homicide: 11,624 / 39% of All Fatalities
•Suicide: 16,750 / 57% of All Fatalities
•Unintentional Death (Accidental): 649 / 2% of All Fatalities
How Are Victims Injured?
•Assault Injury: 43,592 / 68% of All Injuries
•Unsuccessful Suicide Attempt: 3,352 (may be incorrect -- actual number may be larger, see CDC website) / 5% of All Injuries
•Accidental Injury: 16,555 / 26% of All Injuries
* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]
* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]
* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]
* A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]
• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]
"There is no social benefit in decreasing the availability of
guns if the result is only to increase the use of other means of
suicide and murder, resulting in more or less the same
amount of death. Elementary as this point is, proponents of
the more guns equal more death mantra seem oblivious to it.
One study asserts that Americans are more likely to be shot
to death than people in the world’s other 35 wealthier nations.
46 While this is literally true, it is irrelevant—except,
perhaps to people terrified not of death per se but just death
by gunshot. A fact that should be of greater concern—but
which the study fails to mention—is that per capita murder
overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several
other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by
strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent."
Table 2: Murder Rates of European Nations that Ban
Handguns as Compared to Their Neighbors that Allow Handguns
(rates are per 100,000 persons)
Nation Handgun Policy Murder Rate Year
A. Belarus banned 10.40 late 1990s
[Neighboring countries with gun law and murder rate data available]
Poland allowed 1.98 2003
Russia banned 20.54 2002
B. Luxembourg banned 9.01 2002
[Neighboring countries with gun law and murder rate data available]
Belgium allowed 1.70 late 1990s
France allowed 1.65 2003
Germany allowed 0.93 2003
C. Russia banned 20.54 2002
[Neighboring countries with gun law and murder rate data available]
Finland allowed 1.98 2004
Norway allowed 0.81 2001
"No matter how one approaches the figures, one is forced to
the rather startling conclusion that the use of firearms in
crime was very much less [in England before 1920] when
there were no controls of any sort and when anyone, convicted
criminal or lunatic, could buy any type of firearm
without restriction"
"In this connection, two recent studies are pertinent. In 2004,
the U.S. National Academy of Sciences released its evaluation
from a review of 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government
publications, and some original empirical research. It failed to
identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, suicide,
or gun accidents.15 The same conclusion was reached in
2003 by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control’s review of thenextant
studies."
"The results discussed earlier contradict those expectations. On
the one hand, despite constant and substantially increasing gun
ownership, the United States saw progressive and dramatic reductions
in criminal violence in the 1990s. On the other hand, the
same time period in the United Kingdom saw a constant and
dramatic increase in violent crime to which England’s response
was ever‐more drastic gun control including, eventually, banning
and confiscating all handguns and many types of long guns.22
Nevertheless, criminal violence rampantly increased so that by
2000 England surpassed the United States to become one of the
developed world’s most violence‐ridden nations."
The Middle Ages were a time of notoriously brutal and endemic
warfare. They also experienced rates of ordinary murder
almost double the highest recorded U.S. murder rate.100
But Middle Age homicide “cannot be explained in terms of
the availability of firearms, which had not yet been invented.”
101 The invention provides some test of the mantra. If
it is true that more guns equal more murder and fewer guns
equal less death, murder should have risen with the invention,
increased efficiency, and greater availability of firearms
across the population.
Yet, using England as an example, murder rates seem to
have fallen sharply as guns became progressively more efficient
and widely owned during the five centuries after the invention
of firearms.102 During much of this period, because the
entire adult male population of England was deemed to constitute
a militia, every military age male was required to possess
arms for use in militia training and service.
As for the second half of the twentieth
century, and especially its last quarter, a study comparing
the number of guns to murder rates found that during
the 25‐year period from 1973 to 1997, the number of handguns
owned by Americans increased 160% while the number
of all firearms rose 103%. Yet over that period, the murder
rate declined 27.7%.125 It continued to decline in the years
1998, 1999, and 2000, despite the addition in each year of two
to three million handguns and approximately five million
firearms of all kinds. By the end of 2000, the total American
gunstock stood at well over 260 million—951.1 guns for
every 1,000 Americans—but the murder rate had returned to
the comparatively low level prior to the increases of the mid‐
1960s to mid‐1970s period.126
In sum, the data for the decades since the end of World War
II also fails to bear out the more guns equal more death mantra.
The per capita accumulated stock of guns has increased,
yet there has been no correspondingly consistent increase in
either total violence or gun violence. The evidence is consistent
with the hypothesis that gun possession levels have little
impact on violence rates.
Thanks again for those stats Blockhead. Some are very interesting. And, like I've said, I don't want to do away with guns. I know they are useful in certain situations. But I simply believe that better laws could eliminate accidents.
Again, some stats listed are very convincing that guns are necessary, so I'm not just nit-picking when I ask about this one stat:
"40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
I doubt the link provides info, but how exactly does one come up with this stat? This was the question that was brought up earlier, but I simply cannot believe it to be accurate. To me, there is no way possible to determine how many potential criminals decided NOT to use a gun in a violent crime. Not until the movie "Minority Report" becomes a reality and we can read peoples minds.
cold weather effects guns in a manner of uncoolness. never unloaded a shotgun in your home after hunting in extreme cold conditions. safety was on. i tried pumping the first shell out of the gun. it fucking blasted a hole up through the ceiling. yes, the safety was on and the gun was pointed away from people.
those are the gun safety skills i was taught since i was a baby.
like you, i never hurt or killed anyone when my gun went off by itself.
again... extremely cold weather will fuck shit up
The thing is..any asshole can learn to handle a gun. It doesn't make you big, and it's not impressive. Though I admit it's a buzz. I.e, I've fired a 303 Lee Enfield rifle, and I've also fired a 44 magnum on a shooting range in Florida. But..so what? It's not really original, and it brings nothing to the table. I'd be more interested to learn what books you've read, or what countries you've visited.
cold weather effects guns in a manner of uncoolness. never unloaded a shotgun in your home after hunting in extreme cold conditions. safety was on. i tried pumping the first shell out of the gun. it fucking blasted a hole up through the ceiling. yes, the safety was on and the gun was pointed away from people.
those are the gun safety skills i was taught since i was a baby.
like you, i never hurt or killed anyone when my gun went off by itself.
again... extremely cold weather will fuck shit up
The thing is..any asshole can learn to handle a gun. It doesn't make you big, and it's not impressive. Though I admit it's a buzz. I.e, I've fired a 303 Lee Enfield rifle, and I've also fired a 44 magnum on a shooting range in Florida. But..so what? It's not really original, and it brings nothing to the table. I'd be more interested to learn what books you've read, or what countries you've visited.
Good luck defending yourself with a vacation story.
cold weather effects guns in a manner of uncoolness. never unloaded a shotgun in your home after hunting in extreme cold conditions. safety was on. i tried pumping the first shell out of the gun. it fucking blasted a hole up through the ceiling. yes, the safety was on and the gun was pointed away from people.
those are the gun safety skills i was taught since i was a baby.
like you, i never hurt or killed anyone when my gun went off by itself.
again... extremely cold weather will fuck shit up
The thing is..any asshole can learn to handle a gun. It doesn't make you big, and it's not impressive. Though I admit it's a buzz. I.e, I've fired a 303 Lee Enfield rifle, and I've also fired a 44 magnum on a shooting range in Florida. But..so what? It's not really original, and it brings nothing to the table. I'd be more interested to learn what books you've read, or what countries you've visited.
Good luck defending yourself with a vacation story.
It's not clear what getting your nails done has to do with anything on this thread. The baiting each other has to stop right now or it's going to be very quiet in here...maybe until 2012...which would suit me fine since Pearl Jam are very busy and there's lots to do.
If that is what people want, just remember, it's not going to be my choice; it's going to be yours.
Comments
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Thats crazy...I did not know that.
It wasnt cold in my situation. I walked into a room where my friend/roomate was cleaning/reassembling a shotgun. He was sitting down and I was standing a few feet away. I still have no idea how it went off, but it shot a hole through the ceiling (and out the roof) right above my head... Couldnt hear out of one ear for a week or so.
that is why one never points a gun loaded or unloaded at anyone, ever. the barrel is lowered to the ground or raised to the sky. indoors is a bad place to load or unload a gun like a shotgun or rifle that holds many shells all stuffed up into the gun. that darn cold weather makes things brittle and all jam up, weird shit happens. just because you pull the trigger doesn't mean it will fire, maybe the pin is froze in place.
i heard of a guy crossing a fence out in the woods during a cold winter's day out hunting. he placed his gun across the barbedwire fence... kaboom
gun goes off
safety was on
finger not on trigger
it was only probably -20f degrees
never aim a gun in anyone's direction unless they are a child predator or something monsterous like that
then it is coolbeans and stuff :twisted: :evil: :twisted:
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Here come the brownshirts....
All numbers will be per-capita (usually per 100,000), starting from this page, the drop-down will show other results:
http://http://www.nationmaster.com/g...lts-per-capita
Assaults: US 7.6 - UK 7.6 - Aus 7.0
Burglaries: US 7.1 - UK 13.8 - Aus 21.7
Car Thefts: US 3.9 - UK 5.6 - Aus 6.9
Murder: US .043 - UK .014 - Aus .015
Rapes: US .301 - UK .142 - Aus .778
Robberies: US 1.39 - UK 1.57 - Aus 1.16
Total Crimes: US 80.1 - UK 85.6 - Aus {No data}
"There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually."
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html
"In the U.S. for 2006, there were 30,896 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,883; Homicide 12,791; Accident 642; Legal Intervention 360; Undetermined 220."
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/...S/GUNSTAT.html
so there is a ratio of 3115:1 for benefits outweighing the costs.
http://washingtonceasefire.org/resource ... statistics
How Are Victims Killed?
•Homicide: 11,624 / 39% of All Fatalities
•Suicide: 16,750 / 57% of All Fatalities
•Unintentional Death (Accidental): 649 / 2% of All Fatalities
How Are Victims Injured?
•Assault Injury: 43,592 / 68% of All Injuries
•Unsuccessful Suicide Attempt: 3,352 (may be incorrect -- actual number may be larger, see CDC website) / 5% of All Injuries
•Accidental Injury: 16,555 / 26% of All Injuries
* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]
* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]
* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]
* A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]
• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime
All those crimes prevented without killing somebody
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/org ... online.pdf
"There is no social benefit in decreasing the availability of
guns if the result is only to increase the use of other means of
suicide and murder, resulting in more or less the same
amount of death. Elementary as this point is, proponents of
the more guns equal more death mantra seem oblivious to it.
One study asserts that Americans are more likely to be shot
to death than people in the world’s other 35 wealthier nations.
46 While this is literally true, it is irrelevant—except,
perhaps to people terrified not of death per se but just death
by gunshot. A fact that should be of greater concern—but
which the study fails to mention—is that per capita murder
overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several
other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by
strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent."
Table 2: Murder Rates of European Nations that Ban
Handguns as Compared to Their Neighbors that Allow Handguns
(rates are per 100,000 persons)
Nation Handgun Policy Murder Rate Year
A. Belarus banned 10.40 late 1990s
[Neighboring countries with gun law and murder rate data available]
Poland allowed 1.98 2003
Russia banned 20.54 2002
B. Luxembourg banned 9.01 2002
[Neighboring countries with gun law and murder rate data available]
Belgium allowed 1.70 late 1990s
France allowed 1.65 2003
Germany allowed 0.93 2003
C. Russia banned 20.54 2002
[Neighboring countries with gun law and murder rate data available]
Finland allowed 1.98 2004
Norway allowed 0.81 2001
"No matter how one approaches the figures, one is forced to
the rather startling conclusion that the use of firearms in
crime was very much less [in England before 1920] when
there were no controls of any sort and when anyone, convicted
criminal or lunatic, could buy any type of firearm
without restriction"
"In this connection, two recent studies are pertinent. In 2004,
the U.S. National Academy of Sciences released its evaluation
from a review of 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government
publications, and some original empirical research. It failed to
identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, suicide,
or gun accidents.15 The same conclusion was reached in
2003 by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control’s review of thenextant
studies."
"The results discussed earlier contradict those expectations. On
the one hand, despite constant and substantially increasing gun
ownership, the United States saw progressive and dramatic reductions
in criminal violence in the 1990s. On the other hand, the
same time period in the United Kingdom saw a constant and
dramatic increase in violent crime to which England’s response
was ever‐more drastic gun control including, eventually, banning
and confiscating all handguns and many types of long guns.22
Nevertheless, criminal violence rampantly increased so that by
2000 England surpassed the United States to become one of the
developed world’s most violence‐ridden nations."
The Middle Ages were a time of notoriously brutal and endemic
warfare. They also experienced rates of ordinary murder
almost double the highest recorded U.S. murder rate.100
But Middle Age homicide “cannot be explained in terms of
the availability of firearms, which had not yet been invented.”
101 The invention provides some test of the mantra. If
it is true that more guns equal more murder and fewer guns
equal less death, murder should have risen with the invention,
increased efficiency, and greater availability of firearms
across the population.
Yet, using England as an example, murder rates seem to
have fallen sharply as guns became progressively more efficient
and widely owned during the five centuries after the invention
of firearms.102 During much of this period, because the
entire adult male population of England was deemed to constitute
a militia, every military age male was required to possess
arms for use in militia training and service.
As for the second half of the twentieth
century, and especially its last quarter, a study comparing
the number of guns to murder rates found that during
the 25‐year period from 1973 to 1997, the number of handguns
owned by Americans increased 160% while the number
of all firearms rose 103%. Yet over that period, the murder
rate declined 27.7%.125 It continued to decline in the years
1998, 1999, and 2000, despite the addition in each year of two
to three million handguns and approximately five million
firearms of all kinds. By the end of 2000, the total American
gunstock stood at well over 260 million—951.1 guns for
every 1,000 Americans—but the murder rate had returned to
the comparatively low level prior to the increases of the mid‐
1960s to mid‐1970s period.126
In sum, the data for the decades since the end of World War
II also fails to bear out the more guns equal more death mantra.
The per capita accumulated stock of guns has increased,
yet there has been no correspondingly consistent increase in
either total violence or gun violence. The evidence is consistent
with the hypothesis that gun possession levels have little
impact on violence rates.
Again, some stats listed are very convincing that guns are necessary, so I'm not just nit-picking when I ask about this one stat:
"40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
I doubt the link provides info, but how exactly does one come up with this stat? This was the question that was brought up earlier, but I simply cannot believe it to be accurate. To me, there is no way possible to determine how many potential criminals decided NOT to use a gun in a violent crime. Not until the movie "Minority Report" becomes a reality and we can read peoples minds.
The thing is..any asshole can learn to handle a gun. It doesn't make you big, and it's not impressive. Though I admit it's a buzz. I.e, I've fired a 303 Lee Enfield rifle, and I've also fired a 44 magnum on a shooting range in Florida. But..so what? It's not really original, and it brings nothing to the table. I'd be more interested to learn what books you've read, or what countries you've visited.
Good luck defending yourself with a vacation story.
Good point.
If that is what people want, just remember, it's not going to be my choice; it's going to be yours.
Admin