And as i said, steroid users are not treated the same. Clemons and Bonds have not been stripped of any of their records and stats, not has AROD been stripped of his home runs. Im all for cleaning sports up. Drug use in sports is horrible and clearly an important issue. But lets treat everyone who uses the same way. I personally think anyone who used should have their records and stats wiped away. They should be treated like Penn State was, any and all seasons they played should be wiped away and not recognized. Is Clemons treated that way? ARod?
like it or not, clemens and bonds went to trial and were acquitted (they only got bonds on one obstruction count)....a-fraud did something which, at the time, was not explicitly banned by baseball. the feds spent 8 years trying to get bonds and he beat them...even tho he was guilty. lance just knew he had NO SHOT due to the evidence against him....so he gave up.
I will say this....bonds was the best of a whole bunch of juicing players and lance was the best of a bunch of doping riders.
If I had known then what I know now...
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EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
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St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Seriously though, can someone clear something up for me? If Armstrong is stripped of his titles then who will be acknowledged as the 'winner' of each of the 7 Tours? If so many others are also guilty, how far down the field do you have to go to find the first 'clean' cyclist and will they now be awarded the win?
I have a feeling the evidence will also implicate UCI/ASO as being complicit in knowing about Lance and doing nothing to correct the wrong.
EIther way, I imagine those years will just have a big 'NOT AWARDED' asterisk next to the maillot jaune column
115 bucks for half a haircut by a novice? I want my money back!
part of the trouble with the whole doping issue in sports is it muddies the water. I was having a discussion and 2 people both argued griffey got caught using steroids, which is believe is untrue. I think all this ruins things for people like griffey, because i guess people assume now, all baseball players used, and no doubt a huge majority did, and that the issue is muddied enough to where names dont even matter, or specifics dont matter.
As far as i know griffey was never caught with steroids and his name has never appeared on anything connected to using.
As far as im concerned he's probably the greatest player of his generation, and is 4th all time on the homers list, with hank aaron as 1, babe as 2, and mays at 3.
I get the reason for being skeptical of all sports players now, but its sad for those who actually didnt use that their records and stats will ALWAYS be tainted because of people who cheated. Shouldnt be that way.
part of the trouble with the whole doping issue in sports is it muddies the water. I was having a discussion and 2 people both argued griffey got caught using steroids, which is believe is untrue. I think all this ruins things for people like griffey, because i guess people assume now, all baseball players used, and no doubt a huge majority did, and that the issue is muddied enough to where names dont even matter, or specifics dont matter.
As far as i know griffey was never caught with steroids and his name has never appeared on anything connected to using.
As far as im concerned he's probably the greatest player of his generation, and is 4th all time on the homers list, with hank aaron as 1, babe as 2, and mays at 3.
I get the reason for being skeptical of all sports players now, but its sad for those who actually didnt use that their records and stats will ALWAYS be tainted because of people who cheated. Shouldnt be that way.
I have mixed feelings about Griffey. He had tons of natural ability but the injury problems mid-late career seem pretty fishy, along with the all the other players that were putting up similar power numbers are all proven users. There's been no Mitchell reports or "Juiced"s that he's been connected with far as I know but there's certainly some circumstantial evidence against him.
There's not a better hitter from that generation than the Big Hurt and as a huge fan of his I'm proud to say there's absolutely no evidence that he was a juicer. Couldn't field to save his life, but he was a freak in the batters box.
part of the trouble with the whole doping issue in sports is it muddies the water. I was having a discussion and 2 people both argued griffey got caught using steroids, which is believe is untrue. I think all this ruins things for people like griffey, because i guess people assume now, all baseball players used, and no doubt a huge majority did, and that the issue is muddied enough to where names dont even matter, or specifics dont matter.
As far as i know griffey was never caught with steroids and his name has never appeared on anything connected to using.
As far as im concerned he's probably the greatest player of his generation, and is 4th all time on the homers list, with hank aaron as 1, babe as 2, and mays at 3.
I get the reason for being skeptical of all sports players now, but its sad for those who actually didnt use that their records and stats will ALWAYS be tainted because of people who cheated. Shouldnt be that way.
I have mixed feelings about Griffey. He had tons of natural ability but the injury problems mid-late career seem pretty fishy, along with the all the other players that were putting up similar power numbers are all proven users. There's been no Mitchell reports or "Juiced"s that he's been connected with far as I know but there's certainly some circumstantial evidence against him.
There's not a better hitter from that generation than the Big Hurt and as a huge fan of his I'm proud to say there's absolutely no evidence that he was a juicer. Couldn't field to save his life, but he was a freak in the batters box.
do you think pujols who i often see suggested as one of the greatest players of his generation and maybe of all time, do you think he's clean? Despite my obvious dislike of cheating in sports, ive always have a soft spot for mcgwiure as I really think his decision to use haunts him to a huge extent, and i dont think most of the people caught in any sport really care, they dislike they were caught or that their legacy is tainted. Mcgwuire seemed like a genuine guy who made a huge mistake and i think he feels like it was the worst thing he's ever done. Any ways while in St Louis a few years ago, when he was coaching staff I know Mcgwuire was training and helping out pujols and you could tell he felt terrible that people might accuse pujols of using because of the mcgwire link and friendship. Is pujols clean?
do you think pujols who i often see suggested as one of the greatest players of his generation and maybe of all time, do you think he's clean? Despite my obvious dislike of cheating in sports, ive always have a soft spot for mcgwiure as I really think his decision to use haunts him to a huge extent, and i dont think most of the people caught in any sport really care, they dislike they were caught or that their legacy is tainted. Mcgwuire seemed like a genuine guy who made a huge mistake and i think he feels like it was the worst thing he's ever done. Any ways while in St Louis a few years ago, when he was coaching staff I know Mcgwuire was training and helping out pujols and you could tell he felt terrible that people might accuse pujols of using because of the mcgwire link and friendship. Is pujols clean?
Who knows, but if he makes it through his career without any positive tests it's probably gonna be alot like Griffey. Some questions about him but nothing concrete to keep him out of the Hall. It was tough to admit before as a lifelong Cardinals fan but there are certain things about Pujols that definitely raise suspicion.
you can't trust any athlete now adays. Sports is big business and there is money to be made. Ultimately, most athletes give two shits about the fans or hurting the integrity of their sport.
you can't trust any athlete now adays. Sports is big business and there is money to be made. Ultimately, most athletes give two shits about the fans or hurting the integrity of their sport.
you can't trust any athlete now adays. Sports is big business and there is money to be made. Ultimately, most athletes give two shits about the fans or hurting the integrity of their sport.
Pretty much this.
I'm going to disagree, and oddly enough considering this thread, I do trust certain professional cyclists currently racing way more than any MLB player of anyone in the NFL. If you want to see those two sports come to a screeching halt, just test those guys the same way cyclists are (and don't forget the two year bans).
you can't trust any athlete now adays. Sports is big business and there is money to be made. Ultimately, most athletes give two shits about the fans or hurting the integrity of their sport.
Pretty much this.
I'm going to disagree, and oddly enough considering this thread, I do trust certain professional cyclists currently racing way more than any MLB player of anyone in the NFL. If you want to see those two sports come to a screeching halt, just test those guys the same way cyclists are (and don't forget the two year bans).
It's not in baseball's best interests to test like that and the MLB union wouldn't let it happen I wouldn;t think.
I got Tyler Hamilton's book earlier this week. I've been pretty busy so haven't had time to read much but the first few pages. But I've seen enough comments on the cycling boards to know that it is rough stuff. Details about blood doping, UCI's cover-up of positive results, and UCI's efforts to avoid positive tests. Details about the doctors who were hired to set up the "training programs" for the doping, and how incompetent some were - so much so they risked the health/lives of the cyclists in their "care." Lance hired the best, Dr. Ferarri, with an exclusive contract that prohibited Ferrari from "helping" any other riders. Although I don't know if it is in Tyler's book or not, the US AG investigation show that in the mid 2000's Lance paid Ferrari as much as $650,000 in one year. The doping culture in cycling was/is so pervasive that nobody saw it as wrong - it was what you did to keep your job or be the best at your job.
I will comment more after I have read the book.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
I got Tyler Hamilton's book earlier this week. I've been pretty busy so haven't had time to read much but the first few pages. But I've seen enough comments on the cycling boards to know that it is rough stuff. Details about blood doping, UCI's cover-up of positive results, and UCI's efforts to avoid positive tests. Details about the doctors who were hired to set up the "training programs" for the doping, and how incompetent some were - so much so they risked the health/lives of the cyclists in their "care." Lance hired the best, Dr. Ferarri, with an exclusive contract that prohibited Ferrari from "helping" any other riders. Although I don't know if it is in Tyler's book or not, the US AG investigation show that in the mid 2000's Lance paid Ferrari as much as $650,000 in one year. The doping culture in cycling was/is so pervasive that nobody saw it as wrong - it was what you did to keep your job or be the best at your job.
I will comment more after I have read the book.
cool ... i've been reading some interviews on velonews and cyclingnews.com ... was thinking of picking it up but figured it was stuff that was suspected long ago ...
if you read talansky's interview on velonews - it gives some insight into the pro peleton now and why we should feel that most cyclists now are riding clean ...
I read all of Tyler's book. It was very, very interesting and well written. One of those books I did not want to put down when it was time to go to bed. AND it was shocking! In recent years I have suspected pro cycling to be a f***** up mess, but this was beyond my imagination. And yes, the degree of doping - even at the expense/risk of your own health/life - was very shocking, I have to say the craziest thing was the pressure to lose weight and be super skinny. I cannot imagine training for the tour de france and then having to refrain from eating even though you feel like you are starving. Tyler said his coach advised him to take sleeping pills and sleep through the day (after training) so he wouldn't be fighting the hunger pangs. He said he drank gallons of diet coke, and when out to eat with friends would fill his mouth up with food and then go to the bathroom and spit it out. He didn't want friends/family to know about the food deprivation. Just another reason why I could have never been a pro cyclist! I just can't imagine going through all of that physical training - hours of riding - and then not being able to eat. Amazing that he could successfully complete training. Now I understand (even more than I did) why Contador would take Clenbuterol. It allows you to lose fat without losing muscle or something like that. Hell, I wish I had some now - not to cheat in competition but to lose weight without losing conditioning. Note: Contador and Clenbuterol was not mentioned in Tyler's book - this is my thought. There is a lot more pressure than I ever realized on weight loss. I'm no dummy. I knew that being skinny makes you go faster - less ass to haul up and down mountains, but did not know that the deprivation in getting skinny still allowed you to perform. Goes to show that we really don't need as many calories as we think to survive or even perform at top level.
Anyway, the book was well worth the money I spent on it at Amazon. And I don't buy books that often.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
thanks ... i think with sport science these days - it's completely different ...
as for pro cycling now - i believe its as clean as its ever been and really there needs to be a truth and reconciliation session ... the UCI, the media, the race organizers, even the fans need to own up to their various parts in the dark days of cycling ... pro cycling now is so much better ... i fully believe that the winner of each of the grand tours this year rode clean with the asterix on contador ... primarily cuz he rides for bjarne riis - another doper who doesn't have the integrity to come clean ...
I agree that it is probably cleaner, but only to the degree of doping. I am still very suspicious of all of the top finishers. There is now a test for EPO, but that doesn't stop micro dosing. Also, with the new plasticizer (sp?) test it is more difficult to transfuse your own blood. As well, with the bio passport it is harder to manipulate your hematocrit. But the bio passport does not work conclusively because it is more guidelines from what I understand. It is hard to convince a court of law (or sport) that a rider is doping merely based on variances in the passport. Also, I am firmly convinced that UCI is as corrupt as ever in hiding positives of riders that it doesn't want caught, i.e. Lance during his comeback years and Contador with the Clenbuterol. UCI did not release or acknowledge Contador's positive until the result was leaked to the public. No telling how many more have been hidden or manipulated by UCI.
And as everyone that has come clean says "the blood doper science is always ahead of the science fighting the blood dopers."
I think UCI needs to be overhauled. When it is then I will believe that cycling can be cleaner.
I would like to go into the Paul Kimmage case, but don't have time (at work).
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
what gives me some comfort in the cyclists today is the stats ... their wattage now is a way more reasonable number ... it isn't whacked out before ... the elites are in the 6 watts/kg ... vs. the 7's during lance's era ...
Some pros are really obsessed with their weight and food intake, some others not as much. Hamilton always seemed to be the extreme and came across as having an eating disorder from different interviews back when he was racing. The guy looked really unhealthy up top and seemed like he'd get busted up every crash. Maybe a few lbs would have helped reduced injury (or at least that what I tell myself at 180lbs )
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I haven't read the report yet, or even all of the article you cited, but I have been looking at my Twitter feed which is going nuts (I follow a lot of riders and cycling journos). I also read Hincapie's statement.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
Australian anti-doping scientist Michael Ashenden claims that Lance Armstrong’s 2009 blood profile indicates manipulation. In an interview published Monday, Ashenden tells the San Francisco Chronicle and California Watch that Armstrong’s 2009 profile, contained in filings from the Texan’s lawsuit against the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency earlier this year, are consistent with blood doping.
According to the San Francisco Chronicle, Armstrong’s blood profile indicated lower red blood cell production and loss of blood concentration than expected during his first of two comeback Tours de France.
“Suppressed red blood cell production is a classic signature associated with blood doping,” Ashenden wrote in an email. “The body reacts to the presence of excess red cells in circulation by suppressing the bone marrow’s production of new cells.”
Armstrong attorney Mark Fabiani responded to a request for comment from the Chronicle via email: “The rules are clear to everyone but USADA: You either pass a drug test, or you fail it… There is no in between. Lance Armstrong has passed every test ever given to him, including every test administered during the 2009 Tour de France.”
Comments
like it or not, clemens and bonds went to trial and were acquitted (they only got bonds on one obstruction count)....a-fraud did something which, at the time, was not explicitly banned by baseball. the feds spent 8 years trying to get bonds and he beat them...even tho he was guilty. lance just knew he had NO SHOT due to the evidence against him....so he gave up.
I will say this....bonds was the best of a whole bunch of juicing players and lance was the best of a bunch of doping riders.
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VIC 07
EV LA1 08
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Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
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you and millions of others.
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Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
being a dope is different than doing dope
Wait, huh?
exactly
EIther way, I imagine those years will just have a big 'NOT AWARDED' asterisk next to the maillot jaune column
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-armstrong-could-have-retained-five-tour-wins
Armstrong tipped off as to impending drug tests:
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12726/AFLD-claims-Armstrong-was-regularly-tipped-off-about-tests.aspx
As far as i know griffey was never caught with steroids and his name has never appeared on anything connected to using.
As far as im concerned he's probably the greatest player of his generation, and is 4th all time on the homers list, with hank aaron as 1, babe as 2, and mays at 3.
I get the reason for being skeptical of all sports players now, but its sad for those who actually didnt use that their records and stats will ALWAYS be tainted because of people who cheated. Shouldnt be that way.
I have mixed feelings about Griffey. He had tons of natural ability but the injury problems mid-late career seem pretty fishy, along with the all the other players that were putting up similar power numbers are all proven users. There's been no Mitchell reports or "Juiced"s that he's been connected with far as I know but there's certainly some circumstantial evidence against him.
There's not a better hitter from that generation than the Big Hurt and as a huge fan of his I'm proud to say there's absolutely no evidence that he was a juicer. Couldn't field to save his life, but he was a freak in the batters box.
do you think pujols who i often see suggested as one of the greatest players of his generation and maybe of all time, do you think he's clean? Despite my obvious dislike of cheating in sports, ive always have a soft spot for mcgwiure as I really think his decision to use haunts him to a huge extent, and i dont think most of the people caught in any sport really care, they dislike they were caught or that their legacy is tainted. Mcgwuire seemed like a genuine guy who made a huge mistake and i think he feels like it was the worst thing he's ever done. Any ways while in St Louis a few years ago, when he was coaching staff I know Mcgwuire was training and helping out pujols and you could tell he felt terrible that people might accuse pujols of using because of the mcgwire link and friendship. Is pujols clean?
Who knows, but if he makes it through his career without any positive tests it's probably gonna be alot like Griffey. Some questions about him but nothing concrete to keep him out of the Hall. It was tough to admit before as a lifelong Cardinals fan but there are certain things about Pujols that definitely raise suspicion.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Pretty much this.
I'm going to disagree, and oddly enough considering this thread, I do trust certain professional cyclists currently racing way more than any MLB player of anyone in the NFL. If you want to see those two sports come to a screeching halt, just test those guys the same way cyclists are (and don't forget the two year bans).
It's not in baseball's best interests to test like that and the MLB union wouldn't let it happen I wouldn;t think.
I will comment more after I have read the book.
cool ... i've been reading some interviews on velonews and cyclingnews.com ... was thinking of picking it up but figured it was stuff that was suspected long ago ...
if you read talansky's interview on velonews - it gives some insight into the pro peleton now and why we should feel that most cyclists now are riding clean ...
Anyway, the book was well worth the money I spent on it at Amazon. And I don't buy books that often.
as for pro cycling now - i believe its as clean as its ever been and really there needs to be a truth and reconciliation session ... the UCI, the media, the race organizers, even the fans need to own up to their various parts in the dark days of cycling ... pro cycling now is so much better ... i fully believe that the winner of each of the grand tours this year rode clean with the asterix on contador ... primarily cuz he rides for bjarne riis - another doper who doesn't have the integrity to come clean ...
And as everyone that has come clean says "the blood doper science is always ahead of the science fighting the blood dopers."
I think UCI needs to be overhauled. When it is then I will believe that cycling can be cleaner.
I would like to go into the Paul Kimmage case, but don't have time (at work).
:P
Lance = Greatest Doping Program Ever.
yep.
http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/20 ... trong?lite
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
I haven't read the report yet, or even all of the article you cited, but I have been looking at my Twitter feed which is going nuts (I follow a lot of riders and cycling journos). I also read Hincapie's statement.
Australian anti-doping scientist Michael Ashenden claims that Lance Armstrong’s 2009 blood profile indicates manipulation. In an interview published Monday, Ashenden tells the San Francisco Chronicle and California Watch that Armstrong’s 2009 profile, contained in filings from the Texan’s lawsuit against the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency earlier this year, are consistent with blood doping.
According to the San Francisco Chronicle, Armstrong’s blood profile indicated lower red blood cell production and loss of blood concentration than expected during his first of two comeback Tours de France.
“Suppressed red blood cell production is a classic signature associated with blood doping,” Ashenden wrote in an email. “The body reacts to the presence of excess red cells in circulation by suppressing the bone marrow’s production of new cells.”
Armstrong attorney Mark Fabiani responded to a request for comment from the Chronicle via email: “The rules are clear to everyone but USADA: You either pass a drug test, or you fail it… There is no in between. Lance Armstrong has passed every test ever given to him, including every test administered during the 2009 Tour de France.”