Lance Armstrong doping ?

PJFAN13

musicismylife78 wrote:

ultimately I think America needs to have a real and intense discussion about cheating in sports... We all know what happened in baseball, yet people like A-Rod and Giambi continue to play and have their stats intact... For example, everyone is involved in perpetuating this myth about ARod and his homers. When he hits his next homer, his 648th, the issue of his cheating and doping wont come up. That number is accepted despite what we know.

How many people cared about cycling prior to lance?

Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel. He made $$$ based on a myth. He lived a lie on the course AND OFF OF IT. He exploited the hearts and caring souls by pretending to be something he wasn't. How you continue to defend this fraud is mind-boggling to me.
Giambi fessed up. ARod fessed up. They aren't representing organizations that prey on peoples sickness.
Lance's 'apology' is horse-pucky and doesn't come from a genuine place of contrition. He is doing it to compete again.
The guy ruined a organization people believed in. The guy took a sport "nobody cares about", put it on his back and was an inspiration - BASED ON A LIE.
It takes a lotta ball to pull off what he did( ).
He's a fraud. Find a new hero. Find a cancer patient without celebrity who is overcoming without attaching it to some stupid yellow bracelet that represents lies, fraud and now saddness for millions. Find a patient in a center near you. Learn their story. Help them. Believe in their will and determination. Put that belief to good use and help a local chapter heal others in your community.
I've read your posts, and while I don't agree with some, you are a LOT brighter than this.
Nobody cares about cycling outside of cycling fanatics. Guarantee this is the cherry that puts the "who gives a shit" on the ratings for this years TDF, btw. Bradley Wiggins who? Most people would trip over him in a deli and have no clue who he is. Sad. Lance ruined a foundation and a sport. And yet you cheer and root for this despicable walk of life.
To each his own.

Ledbetterman10

PJFAN13 wrote:

Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel.

Totally agree. Can you imagine what it was like for these people being sued by Lance? Think about how much it cost to hire lawyers to compete with Lance's lawyers. They should all sue Lance for slander and monetary damages. The baseball players cheated themselves and the game...but they didn't maliciously try to hurt anybody else. That's what Lance did. And for the most part, these were people who were subpoenaed to testify against him. They didn't just come out of the woodwork like a bunch of rats just to get him. They were summoned to testify. They testified the truth, and Lance tried to destroy their lives. He's a total piece of shit.

musicismylife78

PJFAN13 wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

ultimately I think America needs to have a real and intense discussion about cheating in sports... We all know what happened in baseball, yet people like A-Rod and Giambi continue to play and have their stats intact... For example, everyone is involved in perpetuating this myth about ARod and his homers. When he hits his next homer, his 648th, the issue of his cheating and doping wont come up. That number is accepted despite what we know.

How many people cared about cycling prior to lance?

Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel. He made $$$ based on a myth. He lived a lie on the course AND OFF OF IT. He exploited the hearts and caring souls by pretending to be something he wasn't. How you continue to defend this fraud is mind-boggling to me.
Giambi fessed up. ARod fessed up. They aren't representing organizations that prey on peoples sickness.
Lance's 'apology' is horse-pucky and doesn't come from a genuine place of contrition. He is doing it to compete again.
The guy ruined a organization people believed in. The guy took a sport "nobody cares about", put it on his back and was an inspiration - BASED ON A LIE.
It takes a lotta ball to pull off what he did( ).
He's a fraud. Find a new hero. Find a cancer patient without celebrity who is overcoming without attaching it to some stupid yellow bracelet that represents lies, fraud and now saddness for millions. Find a patient in a center near you. Learn their story. Help them. Believe in their will and determination. Put that belief to good use and help a local chapter heal others in your community.
I've read your posts, and while I don't agree with some, you are a LOT brighter than this.
Nobody cares about cycling outside of cycling fanatics. Guarantee this is the cherry that puts the "who gives a shit" on the ratings for this years TDF, btw. Bradley Wiggins who? Most people would trip over him in a deli and have no clue who he is. Sad. Lance ruined a foundation and a sport. And yet you cheer and root for this despicable walk of life.
To each his own.

So lance is the only person who acheived fame and wealth via using drugs and lying about it? You seen what Arod and Giambi are paid every year? What about Clemons, the guy prior to doping exposure was considered one of the greatest pitchers to ever play. What about Bonds? The guy was doping for years, made millions during that time period and allowed the public to give him the title "Home Run King of all time".

Whether ARod or Clemons ever make it INTO the HOF is one thing. I think most people view both as 2 of the greatest to ever play the game. The fact both acheived those stats while doping and lying about it is another issue.

Sports are messed up. And focusing on one rider and athlete does a major disservice to what should be the ultimate goal post doping scandal in all sports. That is to clean up all sports, and make sure stuff like this doesnt happen again.

None of these guys admitted to it for years. Bonds STILL hasnt admitted to it. And has lied for decades. Was Clemons chomping at the bit to confess? How about Palmiero? Or ARod?

The only REASON they confessed was because they were found out. They were named in the Mitchell report.

And beyond that its not like Basso, Ulrich, Hamilton and the the like were making pennies while Lance was raking in millions. All those guys were making bank and were lying to the public.

Wake up friend. Lots of people made money off the myth. The journalists and cycling world as a whole, who had no problem making millions during those 7 tours and said nothing all the while they knew 80 percent was doping. Selig and other heads made millions and did nothing to stop the doping because they had come off hellish years post strike and the world now viewed baseball as the national pastime again in 98.

Lance was one of hundreds, thousands even who made money off lies and myths. The myth was so big, it even involved CEO's, commissioners, team doctors and leaders from other countries and other teams, and on and on. Other teammates, other teams, managers, officials, leaders.

Again, lets have an honest conversation about cleaning sports up.

musicismylife78

Ledbetterman10 wrote:

PJFAN13 wrote:

Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel.

Totally agree. Can you imagine what it was like for these people being sued by Lance? Think about how much it cost to hire lawyers to compete with Lance's lawyers. They should all sue Lance for slander and monetary damages. The baseball players cheated themselves and the game...but they didn't maliciously try to hurt anybody else. That's what Lance did. And for the most part, these were people who were subpoenaed to testify against him. They didn't just come out of the woodwork like a bunch of rats just to get him. They were summoned to testify. They testified the truth, and Lance tried to destroy their lives. He's a total piece of shit.

Lance was rare because he sued others, but its crystal clear, he could have not done that, and would have been fine. The entire sports world was covering up the fact in all sports doping was the rule not the exception. Everyone was doing it. Everyone knew about it, from the athletes to the higher ups. And everyone was involved in the cover up.

I think people like Selig and team managers in baseball, and in cycling the officials who knew everyone was doping, they share as much of the blame as any of the athletes who doped.

The reason doping was allowed to continue and to permeate the sport was precisely because of their attitude reguarding it.

Whether we are talking cycling officials or Selig, the idea someone wouldnt expose doping because they knew the sport was making money is gross. But its exactly what happened.

Those people should be punished too.

for EVERYONE involved it was about money

musicismylife78

Ledbetterman10 wrote:

PJFAN13 wrote:

Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel.

Totally agree. Can you imagine what it was like for these people being sued by Lance? Think about how much it cost to hire lawyers to compete with Lance's lawyers. They should all sue Lance for slander and monetary damages. The baseball players cheated themselves and the game...but they didn't maliciously try to hurt anybody else. That's what Lance did. And for the most part, these were people who were subpoenaed to testify against him. They didn't just come out of the woodwork like a bunch of rats just to get him. They were summoned to testify. They testified the truth, and Lance tried to destroy their lives. He's a total piece of shit.

and people are STILL making bank off it. The same journalists who made money off Lance and cyclings rise to prominence, are now the same group who are making millions to tear him down. You dont think the journalists and news organizations are making serious money off all this? Its all about ratings and advertising.

If you think only one guy or one team made millions off this you are seriously deluded.

DewieCox

musicismylife78 wrote:

Or take Bonds. They guy has the temerity to interact with people like Aaron or Mays, people who were clean and act like he deserved a place with them. And that he was indeed hitting all those homers legitamately. Really?

Aaron and Mays weren't clean.

Ledbetterman10

musicismylife78 wrote:

Ledbetterman10 wrote:

PJFAN13 wrote:

Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel.

Totally agree. Can you imagine what it was like for these people being sued by Lance? Think about how much it cost to hire lawyers to compete with Lance's lawyers. They should all sue Lance for slander and monetary damages. The baseball players cheated themselves and the game...but they didn't maliciously try to hurt anybody else. That's what Lance did. And for the most part, these were people who were subpoenaed to testify against him. They didn't just come out of the woodwork like a bunch of rats just to get him. They were summoned to testify. They testified the truth, and Lance tried to destroy their lives. He's a total piece of shit.

and people are STILL making bank off it. The same journalists who made money off Lance and cyclings rise to prominence, are now the same group who are making millions to tear him down. You dont think the journalists and news organizations are making serious money off all this? Its all about ratings and advertising.

If you think only one guy or one team made millions off this you are seriously deluded.

Did you even read my post? I don't care about the money Lance made or the money made off him by journalists or whoever. I said I don't like how he viciously attacked and sued innocent people who were called to testify against him and testified truthfully.

musicismylife78

i also question the idea of apologizing or admitting too late. Few of the dopers reguardless of sport readily admit it. Many spend years denying it. Bonds for example still hasnt admitted it.

Many lied under oath, quite a few, like Palmiero and Mcguire lied in front of congress. Its not like Clemons or ARod happily admitted they doped.

They admitted it because they were caught. Its always like that. Hamilton doped as far back as 2004, probably earlier. he didnt admit it until 2011. You dont think he was doping in 2002 or 2003? He lied and cheated for 7 years before admitting it.

You think Clemons was going to admit he doped if he wasnt brought to trial?

All these guys only confessed when they were caught or cornered.

musicismylife78

Totally agree. Can you imagine what it was like for these people being sued by Lance? Think about how much it cost to hire lawyers to compete with Lance's lawyers. They should all sue Lance for slander and monetary damages. The baseball players cheated themselves and the game...but they didn't maliciously try to hurt anybody else. That's what Lance did. And for the most part, these were people who were subpoenaed to testify against him. They didn't just come out of the woodwork like a bunch of rats just to get him. They were summoned to testify. They testified the truth, and Lance tried to destroy their lives. He's a total piece of shit.[/quote]

and people are STILL making bank off it. The same journalists who made money off Lance and cyclings rise to prominence, are now the same group who are making millions to tear him down. You dont think the journalists and news organizations are making serious money off all this? Its all about ratings and advertising.

If you think only one guy or one team made millions off this you are seriously deluded.[/quote]

Did you even read my post? I don't care about the money Lance made or the money made off him by journalists or whoever. I said I don't like how he viciously attacked and sued innocent people who were called to testify against him and testified truthfully.[/quote]

Bonds also sued people as well. He sued the Game of Shadows authors who exposed him as a cheater, because they were going to include grand jury testimony that proved he lied under oath.

Bonds and Clemons and Arod arent known for being nice or great people either.

i just think cheaters and dopers are cheaters and dopers. Its silly to qualify it. Many other riders participated in this fraud and myth.

Ledbetterman10

musicismylife78 wrote:

Bonds also sued people as well. He sued the Game of Shadows authors who exposed him as a cheater, because they were going to include grand jury testimony that proved he lied under oath.

Bonds and Clemons and Arod arent known for being nice or great people either.

i just think cheaters and dopers are cheaters and dopers. Its silly to qualify it. Many other riders participated in this fraud and myth.

Yeah well Bonds is an asshole too. I don't care about cycling and never gave a crap about Armstrong. If anything, I hated having to sit through coverage of his bike races. But I love baseball and I'll say this: I agree with your "cheaters and dopers are cheaters and dopers" stance. But remember, it wasn't against the rules in baseball for quite some time. I'm pretty sure (though not completely positive) that the stuff McGuire was on in '98 weren't banned by MLB (though they should have been because they were banned by the NFL and International Olympic Committee). That's why I don't like these Baseball writers sitting on their high horses denying guys entry to the Hall of Fame. PED use was not only allowed by MLB in the late 90's, it was sorta encouraged with the whole "chicks dig the long ball" stuff.

For a while, I was one of those "fuck these cheaters!" guys. But then I too had to get off my high horse. If I feel that Barry Bonds' records aren't legit, then my beloved 1993 Phillies pennant isn't legit because their best player (Dykstra) was juiced out of his mind that year. And since I'm not about to give up my childhood memory of that 1993 postseason, I'm not gonna begrudge anybody who has fond memories of Bonds, A-Rod, Lance, or whoever. But as I said before, I've never liked Lance so to see him dragged through shit is alright with me.

musicismylife78

I do have a question for fellow tour fans. I stopped watching it in 2008 or so, because i felt like the everyone was doping. i havent watched it since.

Lance seemed to suggest, and Ive heard others say, the tour is now cleaned up.

Is this true? Is it alot harder for cyclists to dope now? Lance mentioned the biological passport and other new testing measures that have made it alot harder to cheat or elude or cheat drug tests. Is this correct?

During those years, 1999-2005, i did find cycling and the tour lots of fun to watch. But on the flip side, i also, find watching both MLB and cycling nowadays pointless because how can you trust anyone who wins or does anything.

Was the 2012 tour clean? Will the 2013 be?

Riverrunner

Music, how do you feel about Lance suing the Sun Times in London because they wrote an article about Lance doping? They paid a settlement to Lance. He made money off of the paper telling the truth. Has any of these other athletes you compare Lance to done that?

Music, how do you feel about Lance talking about Betsy Andreau for the last 15 years or so? And when I say "talking about" I mean calling her a liar, crazy, a bitch, vindictive? And he said this because she told the truth under oath about what Lance said in a hospital room - when he admitted to taking PEDs prior to his cancer diagnosis.

How do you feel about Lance sabotaging Frankie Andreau after he and Betsy testified under oath about Lance's doping? Frankie quit his pro cycling career because of the pressure for him to dope. Since then Lance has done everything in his power to keep Frankie from working in the cycling profession. Lance has been successful in costing Frankie several jobs during his life. What other doping sports professionals have done that to others?

How do you feel about Lance slandering Emma O'Reilly, his former soigneur? He made public statements saying that she slept with many guys on the team, called her a whore, said she lied, and said she was a drunk. Why? Because she spoke to David Walsh about Lance's doping. She told the truth. Lance even sued her! A simple masseuse, who had the misfortune to cross big bad ass Lance. How many other doping professionals have done that.

How do you feel about Lance chasing down a breakaway group in the 2004 TDF and telling the group the pelaton will not let them get away as long as Phillipe Simeoni was in the group? Simeoni ended up dropping from the breakaway due to Lance's threat. And for a cyclist that is not a GC (general classification) contender, a sprinter, or a climber a chance to get in a breakaway is the only chance to win and get some TDF glory. Also, Ekimov, one of Lances most loyal team mates spit on Simeoni. Why the hate towards Simeoni? He got tested positive and instead of fighting it he cooperated with authorities and told them he had been working with the doping doctor, Michele Ferrari, who was also Lance's doping doctor. Lance was pissed that his doctor was threatened.

Music, have you read the USADA report? If not, at least look at the affidavits that are attached to the report - specifically Dave Zabriskie.

How do you feel about Lance suing SCA for his bonus money? SCA denied his bonus because of Lance's doping history. The bonuses were contingent upon him winning without doping. Lance won that case (through a settlement I think) and received millions more because of his lying and bullying. Lance testified under oath in that case at a deposition that he had not doped and that he would never, never dope.

HOw do you feel about Christophe Bassons? He was a pro French cyclist who refused to dope. Lance bullied him out of cycling. Google him and read his story.

How do you feel about Mike Anderson? Google Mike Anderson and read his story.

HOw do you feel about Lance snitching on Tyler? Tyler Hamilton left Lance's team. That really pissed Lance off. To Lance that is disloyal. And Tyler was doing well that season and it rubbed Lance the wrong way. He told UCI (whom he had in his pocket) to "pop" him. They did and Tyler got caught. How many other doping professionals do you know that turn in other athletes because they are threatened by their success? How many other doping professionals have the power and money to control the organization that is in charge of athlete discipline? Lance had that power and he abused it.

O.K. I've rambled on enough. Just from what I've read Music seems to focus on the doping aspect only. There is so much more to Lance's story - abuse, bullying, etc.

musicismylife78

Ledbetterman10 wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

Bonds also sued people as well. He sued the Game of Shadows authors who exposed him as a cheater, because they were going to include grand jury testimony that proved he lied under oath.

Bonds and Clemons and Arod arent known for being nice or great people either.

i just think cheaters and dopers are cheaters and dopers. Its silly to qualify it. Many other riders participated in this fraud and myth.

Yeah well Bonds is an asshole too. I don't care about cycling and never gave a crap about Armstrong. If anything, I hated having to sit through coverage of his bike races. But I love baseball and I'll say this: I agree with your "cheaters and dopers are cheaters and dopers" stance. But remember, it wasn't against the rules in baseball for quite some time. I'm pretty sure (though not completely positive) that the stuff McGuire was on in '98 weren't banned by MLB (though they should have been because they were banned by the NFL and International Olympic Committee). That's why I don't like these Baseball writers sitting on their high horses denying guys entry to the Hall of Fame. PED use was not only allowed by MLB in the late 90's, it was sorta encouraged with the whole "chicks dig the long ball" stuff.

For a while, I was one of those "fuck these cheaters!" guys. But then I too had to get off my high horse. If I feel that Barry Bonds' records aren't legit, then my beloved 1993 Phillies pennant isn't legit because their best player (Dykstra) was juiced out of his mind that year. And since I'm not about to give up my childhood memory of that 1993 postseason, I'm not gonna begrudge anybody who has fond memories of Bonds, A-Rod, Lance, or whoever. But as I said before, I've never liked Lance so to see him dragged through shit is alright with me.

thanks for the honest and thoughtful response. your second paragraph is my stance on lance and his cheating. Those 7 Tours and what he stood for meant something to me. Meant something to my family. And thats hard for some people to understand. I fully admit, I know nothing about the Philles and have heard Dykstras name but couldnt identify him from Adam. The Phillies winning the pennant means nothing to me because it wasnt part of my childhood and i wasnt into baseball then. That said, im not going to blast you or call you an idiot for supporting them even if as you say Dykstra used steroids (i really know nothing about him so this is news to me).

that said, i do think what most people seem to think is that you cant hold 2 ideas at the same time. People seem unwilling to say what Lance did when he lied, cheated, sued, harassed and on and on. That was obviously wrong and bad. But if you say something positive about the guy, its like "but he cheated, he cant have positive traits or be good at all, he's evil and bad solely". I think thats a myopic view of human beings and of Lance or any person. No one is all one thing. The thought process seems to be, unless I say he should be hung, or if i stick up for him in one manner, im somehow excusing or legitimizing the wrongs he's done. And thats just not true and furthermore its downright silly.

Its understandable people are upset. Some of us were and are fans of lance and defended the guy for years, and were inspired by his riding. People are works in progress. Im not able to go from, "i support the guy" to "lets throw him in jail".

I think the letter Oprah read during the interview sums up alot of supporters views on lance. We hate what he did. We feel let down. We feel sad. But I know I still support LiveStrong. I think its a fantastic organization, its a great website.

All those Nike commercials he appeared in, those inspired me when they aired. And I know they inspired many others as well. Theres a ting of sadness to view them now, but they are still awesome commercials, I watched them today and still find them powerful, moving and inspiring.

That one where he talks about people who say "what are you on?". Of course, its upsetting to see now, especially given i believed him. But, does that make the overall message less powerful? I find it just as riveting as I did in 2001. Even more so.

musicismylife78

Riverrunner wrote:

Music, how do you feel about Lance suing the Sun Times in London because they wrote an article about Lance doping? They paid a settlement to Lance. He made money off of the paper telling the truth. Has any of these other athletes you compare Lance to done that?

Music, how do you feel about Lance talking about Betsy Andreau for the last 15 years or so? And when I say "talking about" I mean calling her a liar, crazy, a bitch, vindictive? And he said this because she told the truth under oath about what Lance said in a hospital room - when he admitted to taking PEDs prior to his cancer diagnosis.

How do you feel about Lance sabotaging Frankie Andreau after he and Betsy testified under oath about Lance's doping? Frankie quit his pro cycling career because of the pressure for him to dope. Since then Lance has done everything in his power to keep Frankie from working in the cycling profession. Lance has been successful in costing Frankie several jobs during his life. What other doping sports professionals have done that to others?

How do you feel about Lance slandering Emma O'Reilly, his former soigneur? He made public statements saying that she slept with many guys on the team, called her a whore, said she lied, and said she was a drunk. Why? Because she spoke to David Walsh about Lance's doping. She told the truth. Lance even sued her! A simple masseuse, who had the misfortune to cross big bad ass Lance. How many other doping professionals have done that.

How do you feel about Lance chasing down a breakaway group in the 2004 TDF and telling the group the pelaton will not let them get away as long as Phillipe Simeoni was in the group? Simeoni ended up dropping from the breakaway due to Lance's threat. And for a cyclist that is not a GC (general classification) contender, a sprinter, or a climber a chance to get in a breakaway is the only chance to win and get some TDF glory. Also, Ekimov, one of Lances most loyal team mates spit on Simeoni. Why the hate towards Simeoni? He got tested positive and instead of fighting it he cooperated with authorities and told them he had been working with the doping doctor, Michele Ferrari, who was also Lance's doping doctor. Lance was pissed that his doctor was threatened.

Music, have you read the USADA report? If not, at least look at the affidavits that are attached to the report - specifically Dave Zabriskie.

How do you feel about Lance suing SCA for his bonus money? SCA denied his bonus because of Lance's doping history. The bonuses were contingent upon him winning without doping. Lance won that case (through a settlement I think) and received millions more because of his lying and bullying. Lance testified under oath in that case at a deposition that he had not doped and that he would never, never dope.

HOw do you feel about Christophe Bassons? He was a pro French cyclist who refused to dope. Lance bullied him out of cycling. Google him and read his story.

How do you feel about Mike Anderson? Google Mike Anderson and read his story.

HOw do you feel about Lance snitching on Tyler? Tyler Hamilton left Lance's team. That really pissed Lance off. To Lance that is disloyal. And Tyler was doing well that season and it rubbed Lance the wrong way. He told UCI (whom he had in his pocket) to "pop" him. They did and Tyler got caught. How many other doping professionals do you know that turn in other athletes because they are threatened by their success? How many other doping professionals have the power and money to control the organization that is in charge of athlete discipline? Lance had that power and he abused it.

O.K. I've rambled on enough. Just from what I've read Music seems to focus on the doping aspect only. There is so much more to Lance's story - abuse, bullying, etc.

I am aware of all this. I supported the guy, and until the Oprah interview believed him. He did alot of wrong. But he took a first step. He is in a pretty damn vulnerable spot. He's nude, exposed, the image he convinced the public of, and he convinced himself of, for 15 years, is gone. Who he was for nearly 2 decades is gone. Thats rock bottom. Thats a scary place to be in. He;s human and he made some horrible mistakes. Personally, I think, this is the hardest battle he will fight, other than cancer. To come back from this, not necessarily to race, or run triathelons. But as a person, as a human. As a good guy. What will he do the rest of his life? Its wide open, and whats good for him is, he can decide. He can be or do absolutely anything.
I dont write people off. People change and do change. Someone who is a liar and cheat today, could be an honest kind person in a few years.

I'd be lying myself, if I said, I wasnt disappointed. Maybe none of you viewed him as a hero and viewed those 7 tours as amazing to watch. I did. It meant something to me personally.

But I think what he's facing now, is more impressive than tackling Mont Ventoux, or riding 2,000 miles in July. To me, he isnt deleted from my heroes list.

In fact, to come back from all this, become a better person, to dedicate his life to cancer awareness and all that, if thats his legacy, that would be impressive. As Oprah said, you can either be a jerk or humanitarian. I think it would be great if lance continued on with the humanitarian and activist aspect and spent the rest of his life rehabilitating himself.

As Ledbetterman said, i dont expect everyone to understand my views here, but i should be allowed to view lance as a hero just as anyone who says they dont think of him as a hero is allowed to do.

musicismylife78

none of my heroes are perfect or all good. I couldnt relate to a hero that was. I make mistakes, my life isnt perfect, i have problems and stumble and fall and all that. Having heroes that reflect that only makes sense. A hero that had no problems didnt make mistakes, didnt mess up, what purpose would that serve me? I cant relate to that.

Riverrunner

musicismylife78 wrote:

none of my heroes are perfect or all good. I couldnt relate to a hero that was. I make mistakes, my life isnt perfect, i have problems and stumble and fall and all that. Having heroes that reflect that only makes sense. A hero that had no problems didnt make mistakes, didnt mess up, what purpose would that serve me? I cant relate to that.

To me there is a difference between a hero not being perfect and one whose every action was only to benefit himself. Those Nike commercials you talk about that were inspiring? He got big, big bucks to do those commercials. They were creations by an advertising company. The cancer he had very well could have been a result of his use of PED's. His creation of the foundation made him a "brand" - a money making brand. Tell me what heroic things he has done in his life. I don't see any.

musicismylife78

Riverrunner wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

none of my heroes are perfect or all good. I couldnt relate to a hero that was. I make mistakes, my life isnt perfect, i have problems and stumble and fall and all that. Having heroes that reflect that only makes sense. A hero that had no problems didnt make mistakes, didnt mess up, what purpose would that serve me? I cant relate to that.

To me there is a difference between a hero not being perfect and one whose every action was only to benefit himself. Those Nike commercials you talk about that were inspiring? He got big, big bucks to do those commercials. They were creations by an advertising company. The cancer he had very well could have been a result of his use of PED's. His creation of the foundation made him a "brand" - a money making brand. Tell me what heroic things he has done in his life. I don't see any.

you are assuming that everything a cheater or liar does is done out of self interest and to gain something. Again, people seem to have a hard time believing people can be both good and bad at the same time. We all are personally. We may lie to loved ones, but its a white lie, its not a big lie. We may fib, but we arent fibbing about major things like murder. We may lie on that job application but thats a small lie, and everyone does it. Yet we fully can call ourselves good people. You are also assuming he will ALWAYS be a liar and cheater, and that he wont fully be honest or do something for the common good ever.

MLK while demanding equal rights and standing up for the abused, and downtrodden, was cheating on his wife, and thus was a cheater, and you could even argue that while he demanded rights for all human beings, had trouble seeing women as deserving of those rights. One of his most trusted advisors, was a truly interesting and understudied historical figure named Bayard Rustin, who was gay. MLK and Rustin had a contentous relationship and its often argued King forced Rustin to leave the movement. The idea that MLK is rightly seen as one of the greatest figures of the 20th century, and at the same time was less than interested in the womens movement, feminism, honesty in marriage, and gay rights, is the point im arguing, He held all these views at once. He wasnt just one thing. He was all of it. Good and bad.

The fact he got paid for the commercials means little to me. Ive admitted time and again my hatred of cheating and my sadness about all this. That doesnt mean however, that I cant find the commercials inspiring or cant give money to Livestrong and view it as a good organization.

What people seem to be suggesting is Lance does everything to benefit himself. That anything he's done has only been because he has a huge ego. And wants money or fame or whatever.

Very few human beings are like that. People are complex. Its such an easy thing to broad brush someone. Oh they are evil.

I am inspired by Steve Jobs as well. Id consider him a hero. Apple created some amazing products, changed the world and music forever, and their ad campaigns are inspiring to me. But was Steve Jobs perfect? Was he without flaws? Im fully aware the iPod that changed music forever, was made by some starving child in indonesia, and its sold for hundreds of dollars and that child gets 10 cents. Im fully aware of this. And can simotaneously castigate the barbaric sweatshop practices, and also think Apple is a great company.

Or take someone like Dov Charney. He created American Apparel. The company is among the most socially conscious, their benefits package is amazing, they pay workers fairly, I saw somewhere they give the workers who actually make the clothes good wages. You couldnt ask for a better benefits and socially conscious company. At the same time Charney's behavior, walking around in underwear at the office, the bizaare ads he picks, posting nude womens photos on his office wall. This clearly isnt the most friendly or comfortable working environment. But, the company and he have done alot of amazing work, make great clothes.

musicismylife78

Riverrunner wrote:

musicismylife78 wrote:

none of my heroes are perfect or all good. I couldnt relate to a hero that was. I make mistakes, my life isnt perfect, i have problems and stumble and fall and all that. Having heroes that reflect that only makes sense. A hero that had no problems didnt make mistakes, didnt mess up, what purpose would that serve me? I cant relate to that.

To me there is a difference between a hero not being perfect and one whose every action was only to benefit himself. Those Nike commercials you talk about that were inspiring? He got big, big bucks to do those commercials. They were creations by an advertising company. The cancer he had very well could have been a result of his use of PED's. His creation of the foundation made him a "brand" - a money making brand. Tell me what heroic things he has done in his life. I don't see any.

I dont think you can say he started Livestrong to only benefit himself. Many athletes and celebrities have foundations and give to causes. Seems to me, if you are self obsessed and completely ego driven, spending free time creating an organization that aims to help others and lobbying congress on behalf of others, seems like thats a strange way to go about it.

musicismylife78

i also think its safe to say, had the USADA not been as gung ho about all this, if they didnt subpeona Hamilton and others and force them to testify, every single one of them would, including lance would probably still be saying they were innocent.

Alot of them only told the truth because they were forced to. Hamilton had lied for nearly a decade. I find it hard to believe he would have changed course and admitted it, had he not been subpeoned

Wobbie

musicismylife78 wrote:

Bonds also sued people as well. He sued the Game of Shadows authors who exposed him as a cheater, because they were going to include grand jury testimony that proved he lied under oath.

uh....actually he didn't.....and he never wrapped himself in the american flag.....and he never sucked up to an american president....and he make nearly squadouche on endorsements :?