Waterboarding-thanks GW-and Obama

gimmesometruth27

Jason P wrote:

And he extended the Patriot Act as well. It's easy to say during campaigns that the U.S. should end E.I.T.'s, close Gitmo, and end the Patriot Act ... until you find yourself in the driver's seat of the country ... that is when reality sets in ... I'm glad Obama realized this even though the far-left part of his voter base is angry about it.

that just proves that he is not the big scary liberal/socialist that you all on the right accuse him of being.
i disagree with the patriot act, but it seems that the american people are fine with giving up their rights, and are fine with torturing people, but try to give them universal health care or raise taxes to clinton levels on the rich and they are outraged....strange strange population we are.

wolfamongwolves

311jj wrote:

brianlux wrote:

Waterboarding not torutre? That's the first time I've heard that. I don't know about you, but I'm not in a hurry to try it.

You've honestly never heard someone say that waterboarding is not torture? Such as Bush, Cheney, all of their lawyers, people in this thread, etc. I'm not saying I would do it or want it done to me, but if we use it to "train" our soldiers, then I think we should be able to use it on prisoners.

As was pointed out earlier, the only reason Bush & Cheney etc. didn't consider waterboarding to be torture is that they redefined the word "torture" to suit the express purpose of being able to continue with the process, while still being able to say, with apparent but false consistency, that "America doesn't do torture."

butterjam

So we're torturing our soldiers when we waterboard them? Should we stop doing this? Or because they are more or less choosing to be waterboarded then it is ok?

Talking with my buddies who have been waterboarded a few times, then strongly believe that we should keep doing this. However, they expressed doubts that after waterboarding KSM 183 that we were able to get any credible info.

tremors

brianlux wrote:

This is not a personal attack and I honestly mean no disrespect to anyone on this board, but the Pearl Jam Forum is the last place I would have ever expected to see someone write something supporting the use of torture for any reason. :(

get used to it

JonnyPistachio

311jj wrote:

So we're torturing our soldiers when we waterboard them? Should we stop doing this? Or because they are more or less choosing to be waterboarded then it is ok?

Talking with my buddies who have been waterboarded a few times, then strongly believe that we should keep doing this. However, they expressed doubts that after waterboarding KSM 183 that we were able to get any credible info.

I think that's the key here...I'll tell you who killed JFK if you torture me long enough.

brianlux

tremors wrote:

brianlux wrote:

This is not a personal attack and I honestly mean no disrespect to anyone on this board, but the Pearl Jam Forum is the last place I would have ever expected to see someone write something supporting the use of torture for any reason. :(

get used to it

Not likely. I will never get used to the idea of someone supporting the use of torture here or anywhere else. What can I say? Call me a fool but I say:

Peace

Love and Only Love

wolfamongwolves

JonnyPistachio wrote:

311jj wrote:

So we're torturing our soldiers when we waterboard them? Should we stop doing this? Or because they are more or less choosing to be waterboarded then it is ok?

Talking with my buddies who have been waterboarded a few times, then strongly believe that we should keep doing this. However, they expressed doubts that after waterboarding KSM 183 that we were able to get any credible info.

I think that's the key here...I'll tell you who killed JFK if you torture me long enough.

Absolutely.

If it is torture, then you have no guarantee that the information is credible.
If it's not torture, you're not going to get your information anyhow.

So either way, torture or not torture, what's the point?!
(and if anyone says, "it's a great place to play in Dublin," Ed's already told that joke. Twice.)

Worth reposting gimmesometruth27's link again here, since it got convenienty ignored earlier - a conservative's empirical opinion of whether waterboarding is or is not torture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0

Jason P

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

that just proves that he is not the big scary liberal/socialist that you all on the right accuse him of being.
i disagree with the patriot act, but it seems that the american people are fine with giving up their rights, and are fine with torturing people, but try to give them universal health care or raise taxes to clinton levels on the rich and they are outraged....strange strange population we are.

The socialist concept is B.S. pundit propaganda ... unfortunately it works on people that are so far right, they can't think for themselves anymore.

Not to derail this into universal health care, but I'm still confused on whatever Obama passed a few years ago. Is it actually universal health care or is it a mandate that everyone has to have health insurance in our current 'effed up system?

whygohome

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Jason P wrote:

And he extended the Patriot Act as well. It's easy to say during campaigns that the U.S. should end E.I.T.'s, close Gitmo, and end the Patriot Act ... until you find yourself in the driver's seat of the country ... that is when reality sets in ... I'm glad Obama realized this even though the far-left part of his voter base is angry about it.

that just proves that he is not the big scary liberal/socialist that you all on the right accuse him of being.
i disagree with the patriot act, but it seems that the american people are fine with giving up their rights, and are fine with torturing people, but try to give them universal health care or raise taxes to clinton levels on the rich and they are outraged....strange strange population we are.

It does seem paradoxical, huh?
Strangest tribe...............

Jason P

In regards to the Patriot Act, what rights have I lost? Has anything changed for the normal law-abiding citizen? Are there a few cases you can present where innocent people have gotten screwed over ... yes you can. That is bound to happen with a-holes fly planes into buildings and change our way of life.

I know who should be concerned with it ... terrorist organizations and sleeper cells. They can't rely on buying disposable phones and using our laws to help plot our demise. But for a bunch of people posting on a PJ message board, it's not like the government is going to devote resources to watch us (unless they are looking for good unintentional comedy ).

gimmesometruth27

Jason P wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

that just proves that he is not the big scary liberal/socialist that you all on the right accuse him of being.
i disagree with the patriot act, but it seems that the american people are fine with giving up their rights, and are fine with torturing people, but try to give them universal health care or raise taxes to clinton levels on the rich and they are outraged....strange strange population we are.

The socialist concept is B.S. pundit propaganda ... unfortunately it works on people that are so far right, they can't think for themselves anymore.

Not to derail this into universal health care, but I'm still confused on whatever Obama passed a few years ago. Is it actually universal health care or is it a mandate that everyone has to have health insurance in our current 'effed up system?

universal health care equates to medicare for all. that ain't what we got.

tremors

brianlux wrote:

tremors wrote:

brianlux wrote:

This is not a personal attack and I honestly mean no disrespect to anyone on this board, but the Pearl Jam Forum is the last place I would have ever expected to see someone write something supporting the use of torture for any reason. :(

get used to it

Not likely. I will never get used to the idea of someone supporting the use of torture here or anywhere else. What can I say? Call me a fool but I say:

Peace

Love and Only Love

I fully support you in your noble ambition. I tried it once upon a time. Good luck!

polaris_x

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/4/fo ... er_despite

basically, torture doesn't work and actually hinders progress ... sorta like pouring water on a grease fire ...

usamamasan1

enhanced interrogation techniques. and they seem to have worked just fine in this instance. Thanks again GW for making another tuff choice to protect our country!

Woot

polaris_x

usamamasan1 wrote:

enhanced interrogation techniques. and they seem to have worked just fine in this instance. Thanks again GW for making another tuff choice to protect our country!

Woot

uhhh ... did you read the article!? ... beyond the fact, torture is the number 1 recruiting tool used by terrorist organizations - you would have had bin laden sooner ...

he still stands

Jason P wrote:

In regards to the Patriot Act, what rights have I lost? Has anything changed for the normal law-abiding citizen? Are there a few cases you can present where innocent people have gotten screwed over ... yes you can. That is bound to happen with a-holes fly planes into buildings and change our way of life.

I know who should be concerned with it ... terrorist organizations and sleeper cells. They can't rely on buying disposable phones and using our laws to help plot our demise. But for a bunch of people posting on a PJ message board, it's not like the government is going to devote resources to watch us (unless they are looking for good unintentional comedy ).

I'm just not a big fan of the government gaining access to all of my life's details under the assumption that ANYONE could be a terrorist, including you or me or anyone. The Patriot Act has created a spy government. No one is immune from its reach.

just saying that "if you follow the laws you're fine" makes me want to shove a fork in my eye. Blind acceptance of the laws is you know... kinda the opposite of the concepts of liberty and freedom. I live by nature's laws - by the laws of man. I don't need the government doing a search and seizure of the contents of my bladder... or randomly checking my license plates as it is parked OR on the highway (which they do)... or to set up surveillance cameras on street corners "for my protection"... among a myriad of other things that they do that further defines our current condition as a POLICE STATE.

wolfamongwolves

polaris_x wrote:

usamamasan1 wrote:

enhanced interrogation techniques. and they seem to have worked just fine in this instance. Thanks again GW for making another tuff choice to protect our country!

Woot

uhhh ... did you read the article!? ... beyond the fact, torture is the number 1 recruiting tool used by terrorist organizations - you would have had bin laden sooner ...

I don't think he bothers to read anything that might discredit him. Much easier just to bury your head in the sand and make believe that the right answer is always the one that suits you best.

JonnyPistachio

he still stands wrote:

Jason P wrote:

In regards to the Patriot Act, what rights have I lost? Has anything changed for the normal law-abiding citizen? Are there a few cases you can present where innocent people have gotten screwed over ... yes you can. That is bound to happen with a-holes fly planes into buildings and change our way of life.

I know who should be concerned with it ... terrorist organizations and sleeper cells. They can't rely on buying disposable phones and using our laws to help plot our demise. But for a bunch of people posting on a PJ message board, it's not like the government is going to devote resources to watch us (unless they are looking for good unintentional comedy ).

I'm just not a big fan of the government gaining access to all of my life's details under the assumption that ANYONE could be a terrorist, including you or me or anyone. The Patriot Act has created a spy government. No one is immune from its reach.

just saying that "if you follow the laws you're fine" makes me want to shove a fork in my eye. Blind acceptance of the laws is you know... kinda the opposite of the concepts of liberty and freedom. I live by nature's laws - by the laws of man. I don't need the government doing a search and seizure of the contents of my bladder... or randomly checking my license plates as it is parked OR on the highway (which they do)... or to set up surveillance cameras on street corners "for my protection"... among a myriad of other things that they do that further defines our current condition as a POLICE STATE.

I see what you're both saying and I've always been on the fence with this one.
I rationalize it like this though --The way I see it is that using a phone is a priveledge, not a right. You have to pay for that service. Just like flying, you have to agree to a security check. I don't feel like they're doing these things to harass us, but rather to make us safer.

If they wanna listen to my phone conversations, it doesnt change my life at all. I just don't see it as giving up freedoms. I can still have that conversation.

usamamasan1

USA!

butterjam

JonnyPistachio wrote:

311jj wrote:

So we're torturing our soldiers when we waterboard them? Should we stop doing this? Or because they are more or less choosing to be waterboarded then it is ok?

Talking with my buddies who have been waterboarded a few times, then strongly believe that we should keep doing this. However, they expressed doubts that after waterboarding KSM 183 that we were able to get any credible info.

I think that's the key here...I'll tell you who killed JFK if you torture me long enough.

Yes, after 183 times. Don't mean to sound krass, but that is beating a dead horse. If he won't say anything credible after a few waterboardings, he won't after 183.

So again, should we stop doing this to our soldiers?