Waterboarding-thanks GW-and Obama

polaris_x

haha ... sooooo ... dude's been living in a fucking mansion in a well to do neighbourhood and apparently waterboarding was the only way your INTELLIGENCE community could find him!?? ... well ... ok then ...

usamamasan1

Well, apparently Obama has known his hideout since August but has been voting "present" until a few days ago....

gimmesometruth27

usamamasan1 wrote:

Well, apparently Obama has known his hideout since August but has been voting "present" until a few days ago....

they were not sure if it was him until days before the raid. would you have had them go in and kill someone on the hunch that it was him or wait for confirmation?

mikepegg44

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

usamamasan1 wrote:

Well, apparently Obama has known his hideout since August but has been voting "present" until a few days ago....

they were not sure if it was him until days before the raid. would you have had them go in and kill someone on the hunch that it was him or wait for confirmation?

no one can ever do anything right...this was a gutsy call by Obama and he needs all the credit in the world for making it. Did he do all the work, no...but he deserves our respect for making a tough call...
Personally i would of rather it taken 10 more years than lowering ourselves by torturing people...it isn't okay

usamamasan1

enhanced interrogation techniques.
btw, I do give credit to BO for having some nads in this instance.

Jason P

It's seems that reports and statements from the White House have noted that conventional and unconventional methods were used to gather the intelligence to find Bin Laden. I'm sure the W.H. won't want / like to admit it, but E.I.T.'s appear to have helped connect the dots on the importance of the couriers.

gimmesometruth27

mikepegg44 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

usamamasan1 wrote:

Well, apparently Obama has known his hideout since August but has been voting "present" until a few days ago....

they were not sure if it was him until days before the raid. would you have had them go in and kill someone on the hunch that it was him or wait for confirmation?

no one can ever do anything right...this was a gutsy call by Obama and he needs all the credit in the world for making it. Did he do all the work, no...but he deserves our respect for making a tough call...
Personally i would of rather it taken 10 more years than lowering ourselves by torturing people...it isn't okay

i agree with you on every point you made, mike.

at least we waited long enough to make sure it was really him instead of our usual policy of shoot first then ask questions.

gimmesometruth27

and by the way, i do not have the greatest faith in our intelligence gathering/sharing system since we have had so many failures in the past, ie. trusting curveball, etc. but i still do not and will not condone advanced interrogation techniques.

nobody has said exactly how much info gleaned from torture was correct and how much of it was bollocks to make the torture stop.

usamamasan1

I have just obtained photgraphic evidence that clearly shows Obama should get credit for the kill!

wolfamongwolves

I was wondering when this specious reasoning was going to surface. Waterboarding may have gotten the information, but it by no means follows that it was the only, or even the most effective way to get that information. It would be just as likely to produce false information, and I will bet you that the vast majority of information gleaned through torture, from someone who will tell you any old bullshit they think you want to hear just to get you to stop abusing them, is utterly worthless.

It was inevitable that this event was going to be used to justify torture or back up the agenda of those who have a vested interest in keeping Guantánamo open, but don't be under any illusions that it is a valid justification. It is not.

usamamasan1

nah,

war is war. i have no time for politcal correctness, or whatever that is.

butterjam

I believe the first question that you needs to be asked is "Do you consider waterboarding torture?" Personally, I do not. We do it to our own special ops. I am lucky to personally know a handful of green berets and rangers. I've discussed this at length with them back when all this hit the news. They said it sucked, but were adamant that we do it to our soldiers and certain captives. I believe that if we do it to our own we can do it to our enemies. That is where I draw the line.

But that's my line and that really doesn't mean sh*t. It is what our gov't and int'l law decide is torture.

To me the larger issue is our foreign policy itself. If we want to "spread democracy", we need to act like a true and fair democracy. This includes closing Gitmo, giving all captives fair and humane treatment, quit starting unjust wars, bombing and occupying countries,etc.

I truly believe that all of the blowback from these horrific things that we do, in the name of democracy and protecting the citizens, is far worse than if we did do what I suggested above.

There will always be evil in this world, you can't put an end to it, but you can minimize it. Evil begets evil.

brianlux

311jj wrote:

I believe the first question that you needs to be asked is "Do you consider waterboarding torture?" Personally, I do not. We do it to our own special ops. I am lucky to personally know a handful of green berets and rangers. I've discussed this at length with them back when all this hit the news. They said it sucked, but were adamant that we do it to our soldiers and certain captives. I believe that if we do it to our own we can do it to our enemies. That is where I draw the line.

But that's my line and that really doesn't mean sh*t. It is what our gov't and int'l law decide is torture.

To me the larger issue is our foreign policy itself. If we want to "spread democracy", we need to act like a true and fair democracy. This includes closing Gitmo, giving all captives fair and humane treatment, quit starting unjust wars, bombing and occupying countries,etc.

I truly believe that all of the blowback from these horrific things that we do, in the name of democracy and protecting the citizens, is far worse than if we did do what I suggested above.

There will always be evil in this world, you can't put an end to it, but you can minimize it. Evil begets evil.

Waterboarding not torutre? That's the first time I've heard that. I don't know about you, but I'm not in a hurry to try it.

usamamasan1

is keeping someone awake for a few days torture too?

gimmesometruth27

usamamasan1 wrote:

is keeping someone awake for a few days torture too?

sleep deprivation is a form of torture and violates the geneva convention


http://www.slate.com/features/whatistor ... vation.htm

Name: "Sleep adjustment"; "Sleep deprivation"

Source: DOD Working Group memo, March 2003; DOD memo, April 16, 2003

Description: According to the Pentagon, "sleep adjustment" means altering the sleep cycles of detainees by reversing day and night to induce disorientation similar to jet lag. Commanders at Abu Ghraib were authorized to implement sleep-adjustment techniques for up to 72 hours. The DOD Working Group defined "sleep deprivation" as "keeping the detainee awake for an extended period of time (allowing individual to rest briefly and then awakening him, repeatedly) NOT to exceed four days in succession."

Physical, Psychological, or Other Effects: Moderate sleep deprivation can impair cognitive functions including memory, learning, logical reasoning, arithmetic skills, verbal processing, and decision-making. Prolonged sleep deprivation causes attention deficits, short-term memory problems, speech impairment, and other ailments. According to a study by Physicians for Human Rights, a group based in Cambridge, Mass., this tactic can also cause high blood pressure and cardiovascular disease and exacerbate existing ailments. Another study found that sleep deprivation can reduce an individual's tolerance for pain and ability to resist suggestion.

Locations Used: Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan

Legal Opinion: Interference with sleep likely violates the Geneva Conventions.

FM 34-52 describes "abnormal sleep deprivation" as a form of mental torture.

The European Court of Human Rights and the Supreme Court of Israel have ruled sleep deprivation inhumane and unlawful. The DOD Working Group noted these decisions in its March 2003 memo but concluded that they do not apply to American actions because they were not binding on the United States.

gimmesometruth27

here is conservative radio host mancow being waterboarded. he called it "absolutely torture".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0

usamamasan1

like i said, a few days.


authorized to implement sleep-adjustment techniques for up to 72 hours

sleep-adjustment techniques

our govt does not and rightfully so believe this is torture. your "legal" opinions are

irrelevant

sweet jesus, you long shit then post a video link? and expect people to go through that?

•If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to defeat it.
•If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to appease him.

wolfamongwolves

usamamasan1 wrote:

war is war. i have no time for politcal correctness, or whatever that is.

Ah, the old vacuous "political correctness" cop-out! How cliché!

It's not political correctness, it's the application of reason, common-sense and basic human decency.

Whatever "war is war" is supposed to mean (as a tautology, it is actually completely meaningless) there are principles and standards that apply to war also. One of those is that torture is never acceptable.

wolfamongwolves

usamamasan1 wrote:

our govt does not and rightfully so believe this is torture. your "legal" opinions are irrelevant

Your government under Bush explicitly redefined the word "torture" so that it could say that it didn't consider as torture actions (such as waterboarding) that would be (and rightfully so) considered torture by the rest of the world. This despite the fact that the US State Dept designated sumbersion of the head in water as torture in its 2005 country report on Tunisia. This despite the fact that under Bush's governorship, a Texas sheriff was convicted and jailed for ten years for waterboarding a prisoner.

And, since in 2009, Obama banned waterboarding, I would say you are wrong. Your government now does, and rightfully so, believe waterboarding to be torure.

Unless you have something - anything - to back up your statement that "your 'legal' opinions are irrelevant" then I would have to say that your statement is itself irrelevant.

usamamasan1 wrote:

sweet jesus, you cut & paste long shit then post a video link? and expect people to go through that?

I would think that if you have any interest in being taken seriously, then yes, it's reasonable to expect you to go through that. Otherwise it just comes off like you're scared to face any facts that don't fit with your opinion.

gimmesometruth27

usamamasan1 wrote:

like i said, a few days.


authorized to implement sleep-adjustment techniques for up to 72 hours

sleep-adjustment techniques

our govt does not and rightfully so believe this is torture. your "legal" opinions are

irrelevant

sweet jesus, you long shit then post a video link? and expect people to go through that?

•If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to defeat it.
•If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to appease him.

it doesn't matter what i post, you won't read it anyway.

it is you with such profound responses as:
"tldr" which you said means "too long. didn't read"....

it is easy enough, don't read or reply to my posts if you don't like what i post. and you do not notice that i always comment on what i paste? or do you notice i paste things to back up my positions? because sometimes we have to present evidence other than opinion and conjecture.