our govt does not and rightfully so believe this is torture. your "legal" opinions are irrelevant
Your government under Bush explicitly redefined the word "torture" so that it could say that it didn't consider as torture actions (such as waterboarding) that would be (and rightfully so) considered torture by the rest of the world. This despite the fact that the US State Dept designated sumbersion of the head in water as torture in its 2005 country report on Tunisia. This despite the fact that under Bush's governorship, a Texas sheriff was convicted and jailed for ten years for waterboarding a prisoner.
And, since in 2009, Obama banned waterboarding, I would say you are wrong. Your government now does, and rightfully so, believe waterboarding to be torure.
Unless you have something - anything - to back up your statement that "your 'legal' opinions are irrelevant" then I would have to say that your statement is itself irrelevant.
sweet jesus, you cut & paste long shit then post a video link? and expect people to go through that?
I would think that if you have any interest in being taken seriously, then yes, it's reasonable to expect you to go through that. Otherwise it just comes off like you're scared to face any facts that don't fit with your opinion.
it also shows a lack of maturity and is disrespectful to everyone participating in the debate if one poster is spouting off things without reading what has been presented.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
when did america become above the geneva convention?
why is there no other country or group of countries that will sanction or reprimand us?
Probably because the US will cut their aid programs off or they think it's strange that we are making a big fuss about waterboarding while they are extinguishing cigarettes on their prisoners genitals.
•If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to get around the law.
•If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to get them legally.
um, yep. shit, if these enhanced interrogation techniques ARE legaly torture, then GW should be tried right?
absolutely.
And if I'm not mistaken, when his autobio was published, and he admitted sanctioning torture techniques, there were some legal experts who thought there may be grounds enough to put him on trial.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
um, yep. shit, if these enhanced interrogation techniques ARE legaly torture, then GW should be tried right?
seriously, how old are you again?? you posted that i had my head up my ass, then deleted it. i will address that with you via pm, but pms are shut off again. i just wanted you to know i saw it, and that it was a sign that you have nothing further to present on this issue....
and yes, gwb should be tried. what good are laws and international agreements when they are not applied to everyone involved?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
when did america become above the geneva convention?
why is there no other country or group of countries that will sanction or reprimand us?
I think Jason nailed it, the reason that no country will sanction us is because in the most serious cases they would need to use our military to do it...what country is going to impose a naval blockade on us, or stop doing business with us...it just isn't feasible...
Also, I think most countries probably do some form of these interrogations...that isn't a justification for it, just more to the idea that if they all do it how can they point the fingers at us...we probably have files on each and every one of their security agencies and their practices and I am sure those files would get "leaked" if they tried to come out and say we were wrong in a more formal way than simply a diplomatic statement...I wonder how all that political posturing gets done without backbones?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
when did america become above the geneva convention?
why is there no other country or group of countries that will sanction or reprimand us?
I think Jason nailed it, the reason that no country will sanction us is because in the most serious cases they would need to use our military to do it...what country is going to impose a naval blockade on us, or stop doing business with us...it just isn't feasible...
Also, I think most countries probably do some form of these interrogations...that isn't a justification for it, just more to the idea that if they all do it how can they point the fingers at us...we probably have files on each and every one of their security agencies and their practices and I am sure those files would get "leaked" if they tried to come out and say we were wrong in a more formal way than simply a diplomatic statement...I wonder how all that political posturing gets done without backbones?
well then we should not fraudulently claim to be the beacon of freedom and human rights and claim that we are above participating in these torturous actions when clearly we are doing these things.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
well then, i guess i have proved my point...they are NOT legally torture bc i see nobody chaining GW up and taking him to trial.
woot
Is that supposed to be logic?!
My friend, you have a long way to go to prove your point... but you have pretty well illustrated mine. You've just used exactly the same arse-about-face attempt at logic that the Bush administration used in moving the goalposts and redefining torture to fit their bill. Didn't work for them, isn't working for you.
Post edited by wolfamongwolves on
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
•If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to get around the law.
•If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to get them legally.
That is why I trust the conservatives over the liberals with keeping our country safe.
•If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to get around the law.
•If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to get them legally.
That is why I trust the conservatives over the liberals with keeping our country safe.
did a centrist not just bag osama bin laden?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
•If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to get around the law.
•If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to get them legally.
That is why I trust the conservatives over the liberals with keeping our country safe.
did a centrist not just bag osama bin laden?
And he extended the Patriot Act as well. It's easy to say during campaigns that the U.S. should end E.I.T.'s, close Gitmo, and end the Patriot Act ... until you find yourself in the driver's seat of the country ... that is when reality sets in ... I'm glad Obama realized this even though the far-left part of his voter base is angry about it.
I believe the first question that you needs to be asked is "Do you consider waterboarding torture?" Personally, I do not. We do it to our own special ops. I am lucky to personally know a handful of green berets and rangers. I've discussed this at length with them back when all this hit the news. They said it sucked, but were adamant that we do it to our soldiers and certain captives. I believe that if we do it to our own we can do it to our enemies. That is where I draw the line.
But that's my line and that really doesn't mean sh*t. It is what our gov't and int'l law decide is torture.
To me the larger issue is our foreign policy itself. If we want to "spread democracy", we need to act like a true and fair democracy. This includes closing Gitmo, giving all captives fair and humane treatment, quit starting unjust wars, bombing and occupying countries,etc.
I truly believe that all of the blowback from these horrific things that we do, in the name of democracy and protecting the citizens, is far worse than if we did do what I suggested above.
There will always be evil in this world, you can't put an end to it, but you can minimize it. Evil begets evil.
Waterboarding not torutre? That's the first time I've heard that. I don't know about you, but I'm not in a hurry to try it.
You've honestly never heard someone say that waterboarding is not torture? Such as Bush, Cheney, all of their lawyers, people in this thread, etc. I'm not saying I would do it or want it done to me, but if we use it to "train" our soldiers, then I think we should be able to use it on prisoners.
You've honestly never heard someone say that waterboarding is not torture? Such as Bush, Cheney, all of their lawyers, people in this thread, etc. I'm not saying I would do it or want it done to me, but if we use it to "train" our soldiers, then I think we should be able to use it on prisoners.
by all definitions ... waterboarding is torture ... feel free to argue that you are ok with this form of torture but by pretty much all international and US definitions - it is classified as torture ...
And he extended the Patriot Act as well. It's easy to say during campaigns that the U.S. should end E.I.T.'s, close Gitmo, and end the Patriot Act ... until you find yourself in the driver's seat of the country ... that is when reality sets in ... I'm glad Obama realized this even though the far-left part of his voter base is angry about it.
I'm not sure about your statement about reality setting in. 9/11 could have been stopped with what we had in place at the time. So, say the operation was a bust, then there is no Patriot Act, torture, or Gitmo. Those three things exists because of fear and the creation of a false "war on terror". Reality didn't set in. Mistakes set in which allowed 9/11 and we decided our reality was to let fear dictate choices.
And he extended the Patriot Act as well. It's easy to say during campaigns that the U.S. should end E.I.T.'s, close Gitmo, and end the Patriot Act ... until you find yourself in the driver's seat of the country ... that is when reality sets in ... I'm glad Obama realized this even though the far-left part of his voter base is angry about it.
that just proves that he is not the big scary liberal/socialist that you all on the right accuse him of being.
i disagree with the patriot act, but it seems that the american people are fine with giving up their rights, and are fine with torturing people, but try to give them universal health care or raise taxes to clinton levels on the rich and they are outraged....strange strange population we are.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Waterboarding not torutre? That's the first time I've heard that. I don't know about you, but I'm not in a hurry to try it.
You've honestly never heard someone say that waterboarding is not torture? Such as Bush, Cheney, all of their lawyers, people in this thread, etc. I'm not saying I would do it or want it done to me, but if we use it to "train" our soldiers, then I think we should be able to use it on prisoners.
As was pointed out earlier, the only reason Bush & Cheney etc. didn't consider waterboarding to be torture is that they redefined the word "torture" to suit the express purpose of being able to continue with the process, while still being able to say, with apparent but false consistency, that "America doesn't do torture."
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
So we're torturing our soldiers when we waterboard them? Should we stop doing this? Or because they are more or less choosing to be waterboarded then it is ok?
Talking with my buddies who have been waterboarded a few times, then strongly believe that we should keep doing this. However, they expressed doubts that after waterboarding KSM 183 that we were able to get any credible info.
This is not a personal attack and I honestly mean no disrespect to anyone on this board, but the Pearl Jam Forum is the last place I would have ever expected to see someone write something supporting the use of torture for any reason. :(
get used to it
Cancel my subscription to the Ressurection
Send my credentials to the house of detention
So we're torturing our soldiers when we waterboard them? Should we stop doing this? Or because they are more or less choosing to be waterboarded then it is ok?
Talking with my buddies who have been waterboarded a few times, then strongly believe that we should keep doing this. However, they expressed doubts that after waterboarding KSM 183 that we were able to get any credible info.
I think that's the key here...I'll tell you who killed JFK if you torture me long enough.
This is not a personal attack and I honestly mean no disrespect to anyone on this board, but the Pearl Jam Forum is the last place I would have ever expected to see someone write something supporting the use of torture for any reason. :(
get used to it
Not likely. I will never get used to the idea of someone supporting the use of torture here or anywhere else. What can I say? Call me a fool but I say:
Peace
Love and Only Love
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
So we're torturing our soldiers when we waterboard them? Should we stop doing this? Or because they are more or less choosing to be waterboarded then it is ok?
Talking with my buddies who have been waterboarded a few times, then strongly believe that we should keep doing this. However, they expressed doubts that after waterboarding KSM 183 that we were able to get any credible info.
I think that's the key here...I'll tell you who killed JFK if you torture me long enough.
Absolutely.
If it is torture, then you have no guarantee that the information is credible.
If it's not torture, you're not going to get your information anyhow.
So either way, torture or not torture, what's the point?! (and if anyone says, "it's a great place to play in Dublin," Ed's already told that joke. Twice.)
Worth reposting gimmesometruth27's link again here, since it got convenienty ignored earlier - a conservative's empirical opinion of whether waterboarding is or is not torture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0
Post edited by wolfamongwolves on
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
that just proves that he is not the big scary liberal/socialist that you all on the right accuse him of being.
i disagree with the patriot act, but it seems that the american people are fine with giving up their rights, and are fine with torturing people, but try to give them universal health care or raise taxes to clinton levels on the rich and they are outraged....strange strange population we are.
The socialist concept is B.S. pundit propaganda ... unfortunately it works on people that are so far right, they can't think for themselves anymore.
Not to derail this into universal health care, but I'm still confused on whatever Obama passed a few years ago. Is it actually universal health care or is it a mandate that everyone has to have health insurance in our current 'effed up system?
And he extended the Patriot Act as well. It's easy to say during campaigns that the U.S. should end E.I.T.'s, close Gitmo, and end the Patriot Act ... until you find yourself in the driver's seat of the country ... that is when reality sets in ... I'm glad Obama realized this even though the far-left part of his voter base is angry about it.
that just proves that he is not the big scary liberal/socialist that you all on the right accuse him of being.
i disagree with the patriot act, but it seems that the american people are fine with giving up their rights, and are fine with torturing people, but try to give them universal health care or raise taxes to clinton levels on the rich and they are outraged....strange strange population we are.
It does seem paradoxical, huh?
Strangest tribe...............
In regards to the Patriot Act, what rights have I lost? Has anything changed for the normal law-abiding citizen? Are there a few cases you can present where innocent people have gotten screwed over ... yes you can. That is bound to happen with a-holes fly planes into buildings and change our way of life.
I know who should be concerned with it ... terrorist organizations and sleeper cells. They can't rely on buying disposable phones and using our laws to help plot our demise. But for a bunch of people posting on a PJ message board, it's not like the government is going to devote resources to watch us (unless they are looking for good unintentional comedy ).
Comments
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
why is there no other country or group of countries that will sanction or reprimand us?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
woot
Ironic, this looks cut and pasted too...
..not to mention, a little ridiculous.
or here, let me fix that for you:
either way, WIN
And if I'm not mistaken, when his autobio was published, and he admitted sanctioning torture techniques, there were some legal experts who thought there may be grounds enough to put him on trial.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
and yes, gwb should be tried. what good are laws and international agreements when they are not applied to everyone involved?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I think Jason nailed it, the reason that no country will sanction us is because in the most serious cases they would need to use our military to do it...what country is going to impose a naval blockade on us, or stop doing business with us...it just isn't feasible...
Also, I think most countries probably do some form of these interrogations...that isn't a justification for it, just more to the idea that if they all do it how can they point the fingers at us...we probably have files on each and every one of their security agencies and their practices and I am sure those files would get "leaked" if they tried to come out and say we were wrong in a more formal way than simply a diplomatic statement...I wonder how all that political posturing gets done without backbones?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
My friend, you have a long way to go to prove your point... but you have pretty well illustrated mine. You've just used exactly the same arse-about-face attempt at logic that the Bush administration used in moving the goalposts and redefining torture to fit their bill. Didn't work for them, isn't working for you.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
You've honestly never heard someone say that waterboarding is not torture? Such as Bush, Cheney, all of their lawyers, people in this thread, etc. I'm not saying I would do it or want it done to me, but if we use it to "train" our soldiers, then I think we should be able to use it on prisoners.
by all definitions ... waterboarding is torture ... feel free to argue that you are ok with this form of torture but by pretty much all international and US definitions - it is classified as torture ...
I'm not sure about your statement about reality setting in. 9/11 could have been stopped with what we had in place at the time. So, say the operation was a bust, then there is no Patriot Act, torture, or Gitmo. Those three things exists because of fear and the creation of a false "war on terror". Reality didn't set in. Mistakes set in which allowed 9/11 and we decided our reality was to let fear dictate choices.
i disagree with the patriot act, but it seems that the american people are fine with giving up their rights, and are fine with torturing people, but try to give them universal health care or raise taxes to clinton levels on the rich and they are outraged....strange strange population we are.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
As was pointed out earlier, the only reason Bush & Cheney etc. didn't consider waterboarding to be torture is that they redefined the word "torture" to suit the express purpose of being able to continue with the process, while still being able to say, with apparent but false consistency, that "America doesn't do torture."
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Talking with my buddies who have been waterboarded a few times, then strongly believe that we should keep doing this. However, they expressed doubts that after waterboarding KSM 183 that we were able to get any credible info.
get used to it
Send my credentials to the house of detention
I think that's the key here...I'll tell you who killed JFK if you torture me long enough.
Not likely. I will never get used to the idea of someone supporting the use of torture here or anywhere else. What can I say? Call me a fool but I say:
Peace
Love and Only Love
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
If it is torture, then you have no guarantee that the information is credible.
If it's not torture, you're not going to get your information anyhow.
So either way, torture or not torture, what's the point?!
(and if anyone says, "it's a great place to play in Dublin," Ed's already told that joke. Twice.)
Worth reposting gimmesometruth27's link again here, since it got convenienty ignored earlier - a conservative's empirical opinion of whether waterboarding is or is not torture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Not to derail this into universal health care, but I'm still confused on whatever Obama passed a few years ago. Is it actually universal health care or is it a mandate that everyone has to have health insurance in our current 'effed up system?
It does seem paradoxical, huh?
Strangest tribe...............
I know who should be concerned with it ... terrorist organizations and sleeper cells. They can't rely on buying disposable phones and using our laws to help plot our demise. But for a bunch of people posting on a PJ message board, it's not like the government is going to devote resources to watch us (unless they are looking for good unintentional comedy