Really, is that why it took us a decade to get Osama even though he was in the same place for roughly 6 years? And in a very open area like 20-30 miles outside of the capital of Pakistan? Was that because of the help of the Pakistan government? Yeah, didn't think so. Your notion is not in line with what our policies and practical/realist conditions are in the world. It's an idiot game of whack-a-mole, and guess what, you can't ever win. You can keep playing if you're an idiot or find a new strategy.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
the attitude of american exceptionalism has gotten us nowhere in the war on terror. perhaps this is why pakistan did not reveal bin laden's hiding place. they had to have known he was staying a few minutes away from the pakistani equivalent of west point. but that is another thread entirely.
i know that i never wanted to help an arrogant prick when i was a bartender, so maybe if we softened the american exceptionalism attitude for 10 minutes we might actually get somewhere diplomatically.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
See that's why you're wrong. Simply because we have so many great things in our nation, the most money or allow the most freedoms, doesn't mean we should be acting this way in the world. In fact, we should be trying to be a shining example to the rest of the world of how to be, but as you put it, we're just looking out for ourselves, and guess what, so does everyone else. Then one day it arrives on your door and everyone says, hey, welcome to our world, you're not isolated and the smug attitude compounds others from helping. We were a great experiment created to be a beacon in the world... your posts greatly describe how we have undone that because of self-interest and loosing site of good and bad. And yea, we're still better than the rest, but I doubt you send your child to school to get a grade of C so they can edge out all the D students.. right?
America is exceptional .
This is why you don't really get it. Sorry. Try to keep on trucking, you'll catch on I hope.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.
"The road to bin Laden began with waterboarding," Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y., House Homeland Security Chairman, said in an NBC News interview in which he asserted that waterboarding is a "moral imperative" that "saves lives."
awkward how this is wrong
"The bottom line is this: If we had some kind of smoking-gun intelligence from waterboarding in 2003, we would have taken out Osama bin Laden in 2003,” said Tommy Vietor, spokesman for the National Security Council. “It took years of collection and analysis from many different sources to develop the case that enabled us to identify this compound, and reach a judgment that Bin Laden was likely to be living there.” "
Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.
"The road to bin Laden began with waterboarding," Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y., House Homeland Security Chairman, said in an NBC News interview in which he asserted that waterboarding is a "moral imperative" that "saves lives."
Now ask yourself, how many more terrorists has waterboarding and other forms of torture created?
haha ... sooooo ... dude's been living in a fucking mansion in a well to do neighbourhood and apparently waterboarding was the only way your INTELLIGENCE community could find him!?? ... well ... ok then ...
Well, apparently Obama has known his hideout since August but has been voting "present" until a few days ago....
they were not sure if it was him until days before the raid. would you have had them go in and kill someone on the hunch that it was him or wait for confirmation?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Well, apparently Obama has known his hideout since August but has been voting "present" until a few days ago....
they were not sure if it was him until days before the raid. would you have had them go in and kill someone on the hunch that it was him or wait for confirmation?
no one can ever do anything right...this was a gutsy call by Obama and he needs all the credit in the world for making it. Did he do all the work, no...but he deserves our respect for making a tough call...
Personally i would of rather it taken 10 more years than lowering ourselves by torturing people...it isn't okay
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
It's seems that reports and statements from the White House have noted that conventional and unconventional methods were used to gather the intelligence to find Bin Laden. I'm sure the W.H. won't want / like to admit it, but E.I.T.'s appear to have helped connect the dots on the importance of the couriers.
Well, apparently Obama has known his hideout since August but has been voting "present" until a few days ago....
they were not sure if it was him until days before the raid. would you have had them go in and kill someone on the hunch that it was him or wait for confirmation?
no one can ever do anything right...this was a gutsy call by Obama and he needs all the credit in the world for making it. Did he do all the work, no...but he deserves our respect for making a tough call...
Personally i would of rather it taken 10 more years than lowering ourselves by torturing people...it isn't okay
i agree with you on every point you made, mike.
at least we waited long enough to make sure it was really him instead of our usual policy of shoot first then ask questions.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
and by the way, i do not have the greatest faith in our intelligence gathering/sharing system since we have had so many failures in the past, ie. trusting curveball, etc. but i still do not and will not condone advanced interrogation techniques.
nobody has said exactly how much info gleaned from torture was correct and how much of it was bollocks to make the torture stop.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
I was wondering when this specious reasoning was going to surface. Waterboarding may have gotten the information, but it by no means follows that it was the only, or even the most effective way to get that information. It would be just as likely to produce false information, and I will bet you that the vast majority of information gleaned through torture, from someone who will tell you any old bullshit they think you want to hear just to get you to stop abusing them, is utterly worthless.
It was inevitable that this event was going to be used to justify torture or back up the agenda of those who have a vested interest in keeping Guantánamo open, but don't be under any illusions that it is a valid justification. It is not.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
I believe the first question that you needs to be asked is "Do you consider waterboarding torture?" Personally, I do not. We do it to our own special ops. I am lucky to personally know a handful of green berets and rangers. I've discussed this at length with them back when all this hit the news. They said it sucked, but were adamant that we do it to our soldiers and certain captives. I believe that if we do it to our own we can do it to our enemies. That is where I draw the line.
But that's my line and that really doesn't mean sh*t. It is what our gov't and int'l law decide is torture.
To me the larger issue is our foreign policy itself. If we want to "spread democracy", we need to act like a true and fair democracy. This includes closing Gitmo, giving all captives fair and humane treatment, quit starting unjust wars, bombing and occupying countries,etc.
I truly believe that all of the blowback from these horrific things that we do, in the name of democracy and protecting the citizens, is far worse than if we did do what I suggested above.
There will always be evil in this world, you can't put an end to it, but you can minimize it. Evil begets evil.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,437
I believe the first question that you needs to be asked is "Do you consider waterboarding torture?" Personally, I do not. We do it to our own special ops. I am lucky to personally know a handful of green berets and rangers. I've discussed this at length with them back when all this hit the news. They said it sucked, but were adamant that we do it to our soldiers and certain captives. I believe that if we do it to our own we can do it to our enemies. That is where I draw the line.
But that's my line and that really doesn't mean sh*t. It is what our gov't and int'l law decide is torture.
To me the larger issue is our foreign policy itself. If we want to "spread democracy", we need to act like a true and fair democracy. This includes closing Gitmo, giving all captives fair and humane treatment, quit starting unjust wars, bombing and occupying countries,etc.
I truly believe that all of the blowback from these horrific things that we do, in the name of democracy and protecting the citizens, is far worse than if we did do what I suggested above.
There will always be evil in this world, you can't put an end to it, but you can minimize it. Evil begets evil.
Waterboarding not torutre? That's the first time I've heard that. I don't know about you, but I'm not in a hurry to try it.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Source: DOD Working Group memo, March 2003; DOD memo, April 16, 2003
Description: According to the Pentagon, "sleep adjustment" means altering the sleep cycles of detainees by reversing day and night to induce disorientation similar to jet lag. Commanders at Abu Ghraib were authorized to implement sleep-adjustment techniques for up to 72 hours. The DOD Working Group defined "sleep deprivation" as "keeping the detainee awake for an extended period of time (allowing individual to rest briefly and then awakening him, repeatedly) NOT to exceed four days in succession."
Physical, Psychological, or Other Effects: Moderate sleep deprivation can impair cognitive functions including memory, learning, logical reasoning, arithmetic skills, verbal processing, and decision-making. Prolonged sleep deprivation causes attention deficits, short-term memory problems, speech impairment, and other ailments. According to a study by Physicians for Human Rights, a group based in Cambridge, Mass., this tactic can also cause high blood pressure and cardiovascular disease and exacerbate existing ailments. Another study found that sleep deprivation can reduce an individual's tolerance for pain and ability to resist suggestion.
Locations Used: Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan
Legal Opinion: Interference with sleep likely violates the Geneva Conventions.
FM 34-52 describes "abnormal sleep deprivation" as a form of mental torture.
The European Court of Human Rights and the Supreme Court of Israel have ruled sleep deprivation inhumane and unlawful. The DOD Working Group noted these decisions in its March 2003 memo but concluded that they do not apply to American actions because they were not binding on the United States.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
war is war. i have no time for politcal correctness, or whatever that is.
Ah, the old vacuous "political correctness" cop-out! How cliché!
It's not political correctness, it's the application of reason, common-sense and basic human decency.
Whatever "war is war" is supposed to mean (as a tautology, it is actually completely meaningless) there are principles and standards that apply to war also. One of those is that torture is never acceptable.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
our govt does not and rightfully so believe this is torture. your "legal" opinions are irrelevant
Your government under Bush explicitly redefined the word "torture" so that it could say that it didn't consider as torture actions (such as waterboarding) that would be (and rightfully so) considered torture by the rest of the world. This despite the fact that the US State Dept designated sumbersion of the head in water as torture in its 2005 country report on Tunisia. This despite the fact that under Bush's governorship, a Texas sheriff was convicted and jailed for ten years for waterboarding a prisoner.
And, since in 2009, Obama banned waterboarding, I would say you are wrong. Your government now does, and rightfully so, believe waterboarding to be torure.
Unless you have something - anything - to back up your statement that "your 'legal' opinions are irrelevant" then I would have to say that your statement is itself irrelevant.
sweet jesus, you cut & paste long shit then post a video link? and expect people to go through that?
I would think that if you have any interest in being taken seriously, then yes, it's reasonable to expect you to go through that. Otherwise it just comes off like you're scared to face any facts that don't fit with your opinion.
Post edited by wolfamongwolves on
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
authorized to implement sleep-adjustment techniques for up to 72 hours
sleep-adjustment techniques
our govt does not and rightfully so believe this is torture. your "legal" opinions are
irrelevant
sweet jesus, you long shit then post a video link? and expect people to go through that?
•If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to defeat it.
•If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to appease him.
it doesn't matter what i post, you won't read it anyway.
it is you with such profound responses as: "tldr" which you said means "too long. didn't read"....
it is easy enough, don't read or reply to my posts if you don't like what i post. and you do not notice that i always comment on what i paste? or do you notice i paste things to back up my positions? because sometimes we have to present evidence other than opinion and conjecture.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Comments
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
i know that i never wanted to help an arrogant prick when i was a bartender, so maybe if we softened the american exceptionalism attitude for 10 minutes we might actually get somewhere diplomatically.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
This is why you don't really get it. Sorry. Try to keep on trucking, you'll catch on I hope.
the point is people are less willing to help people that think that they are superior to everyone else. hence the term american exceptionalism.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
awkward how this is wrong
"The bottom line is this: If we had some kind of smoking-gun intelligence from waterboarding in 2003, we would have taken out Osama bin Laden in 2003,” said Tommy Vietor, spokesman for the National Security Council. “It took years of collection and analysis from many different sources to develop the case that enabled us to identify this compound, and reach a judgment that Bin Laden was likely to be living there.” "
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/us/po ... &seid=auto
Haters gon' hate.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
no one can ever do anything right...this was a gutsy call by Obama and he needs all the credit in the world for making it. Did he do all the work, no...but he deserves our respect for making a tough call...
Personally i would of rather it taken 10 more years than lowering ourselves by torturing people...it isn't okay
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
btw, I do give credit to BO for having some nads in this instance.
at least we waited long enough to make sure it was really him instead of our usual policy of shoot first then ask questions.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
nobody has said exactly how much info gleaned from torture was correct and how much of it was bollocks to make the torture stop.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
It was inevitable that this event was going to be used to justify torture or back up the agenda of those who have a vested interest in keeping Guantánamo open, but don't be under any illusions that it is a valid justification. It is not.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
war is war. i have no time for politcal correctness, or whatever that is.
But that's my line and that really doesn't mean sh*t. It is what our gov't and int'l law decide is torture.
To me the larger issue is our foreign policy itself. If we want to "spread democracy", we need to act like a true and fair democracy. This includes closing Gitmo, giving all captives fair and humane treatment, quit starting unjust wars, bombing and occupying countries,etc.
I truly believe that all of the blowback from these horrific things that we do, in the name of democracy and protecting the citizens, is far worse than if we did do what I suggested above.
There will always be evil in this world, you can't put an end to it, but you can minimize it. Evil begets evil.
Waterboarding not torutre? That's the first time I've heard that. I don't know about you, but I'm not in a hurry to try it.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
http://www.slate.com/features/whatistor ... vation.htm
Name: "Sleep adjustment"; "Sleep deprivation"
Source: DOD Working Group memo, March 2003; DOD memo, April 16, 2003
Description: According to the Pentagon, "sleep adjustment" means altering the sleep cycles of detainees by reversing day and night to induce disorientation similar to jet lag. Commanders at Abu Ghraib were authorized to implement sleep-adjustment techniques for up to 72 hours. The DOD Working Group defined "sleep deprivation" as "keeping the detainee awake for an extended period of time (allowing individual to rest briefly and then awakening him, repeatedly) NOT to exceed four days in succession."
Physical, Psychological, or Other Effects: Moderate sleep deprivation can impair cognitive functions including memory, learning, logical reasoning, arithmetic skills, verbal processing, and decision-making. Prolonged sleep deprivation causes attention deficits, short-term memory problems, speech impairment, and other ailments. According to a study by Physicians for Human Rights, a group based in Cambridge, Mass., this tactic can also cause high blood pressure and cardiovascular disease and exacerbate existing ailments. Another study found that sleep deprivation can reduce an individual's tolerance for pain and ability to resist suggestion.
Locations Used: Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan
Legal Opinion: Interference with sleep likely violates the Geneva Conventions.
FM 34-52 describes "abnormal sleep deprivation" as a form of mental torture.
The European Court of Human Rights and the Supreme Court of Israel have ruled sleep deprivation inhumane and unlawful. The DOD Working Group noted these decisions in its March 2003 memo but concluded that they do not apply to American actions because they were not binding on the United States.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
authorized to implement sleep-adjustment techniques for up to 72 hours
sleep-adjustment techniques
our govt does not and rightfully so believe this is torture. your "legal" opinions are
irrelevant
sweet jesus, you
•If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to defeat it.
•If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to appease him.
It's not political correctness, it's the application of reason, common-sense and basic human decency.
Whatever "war is war" is supposed to mean (as a tautology, it is actually completely meaningless) there are principles and standards that apply to war also. One of those is that torture is never acceptable.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
And, since in 2009, Obama banned waterboarding, I would say you are wrong. Your government now does, and rightfully so, believe waterboarding to be torure.
Unless you have something - anything - to back up your statement that "your 'legal' opinions are irrelevant" then I would have to say that your statement is itself irrelevant.
I would think that if you have any interest in being taken seriously, then yes, it's reasonable to expect you to go through that. Otherwise it just comes off like you're scared to face any facts that don't fit with your opinion.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
it is you with such profound responses as:
"tldr" which you said means "too long. didn't read"....
it is easy enough, don't read or reply to my posts if you don't like what i post. and you do not notice that i always comment on what i paste? or do you notice i paste things to back up my positions? because sometimes we have to present evidence other than opinion and conjecture.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."