Waterboarding-thanks GW-and Obama

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  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,479
    wolfamongwolves wrote:
    usamamasan1 wrote:
    our govt does not and rightfully so believe this is torture. your "legal" opinions are irrelevant
    Your government under Bush explicitly redefined the word "torture" so that it could say that it didn't consider as torture actions (such as waterboarding) that would be (and rightfully so) considered torture by the rest of the world. This despite the fact that the US State Dept designated sumbersion of the head in water as torture in its 2005 country report on Tunisia. This despite the fact that under Bush's governorship, a Texas sheriff was convicted and jailed for ten years for waterboarding a prisoner.

    And, since in 2009, Obama banned waterboarding, I would say you are wrong. Your government now does, and rightfully so, believe waterboarding to be torure.

    Unless you have something - anything - to back up your statement that "your 'legal' opinions are irrelevant" then I would have to say that your statement is itself irrelevant.
    usamamasan1 wrote:
    sweet jesus, you cut & paste long shit then post a video link? and expect people to go through that?
    I would think that if you have any interest in being taken seriously, then yes, it's reasonable to expect you to go through that. Otherwise it just comes off like you're scared to face any facts that don't fit with your opinion.
    it also shows a lack of maturity and is disrespectful to everyone participating in the debate if one poster is spouting off things without reading what has been presented.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,479
    when did america become above the geneva convention?

    why is there no other country or group of countries that will sanction or reprimand us?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,329
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    when did america become above the geneva convention?

    why is there no other country or group of countries that will sanction or reprimand us?
    Probably because the US will cut their aid programs off or they think it's strange that we are making a big fuss about waterboarding while they are extinguishing cigarettes on their prisoners genitals.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
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  • usamamasan1
    usamamasan1 Posts: 4,695
    edited May 2011
    um, yep. shit, if these enhanced interrogation techniques ARE legaly torture, then GW should be tried right?
    :lol:
    Post edited by usamamasan1 on
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,479
    usamamasan1 wrote:
    um, yep. shit, if these enhanced interrogation techniques ARE legaly torture, then GW should be tried right?
    :lol:
    absolutely.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • usamamasan1
    usamamasan1 Posts: 4,695
    well then, i guess i have proved my point...they are NOT legally torture bc i see nobody chaining GW up and taking him to trial.

    woot
  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    usamamasan1 wrote:
    •If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to defeat it.
    •If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to appease him.

    Ironic, this looks cut and pasted too...
    ..not to mention, a little ridiculous.

    or here, let me fix that for you:
    usamamasan1 wrote:
    •If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to get around the law.
    •If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to get them legally.
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • usamamasan1
    usamamasan1 Posts: 4,695
    Not ironic homeboy, it's like 10 words not 1000.

    either way, WIN
  • usamamasan1
    usamamasan1 Posts: 4,695
    God Bless America and God Bless George W Bush!
  • wolfamongwolves
    wolfamongwolves Posts: 2,414
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    usamamasan1 wrote:
    um, yep. shit, if these enhanced interrogation techniques ARE legaly torture, then GW should be tried right?
    :lol:
    absolutely.

    And if I'm not mistaken, when his autobio was published, and he admitted sanctioning torture techniques, there were some legal experts who thought there may be grounds enough to put him on trial.
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,479
    usamamasan1 wrote:
    um, yep. shit, if these enhanced interrogation techniques ARE legaly torture, then GW should be tried right?
    :lol:
    seriously, how old are you again?? you posted that i had my head up my ass, then deleted it. i will address that with you via pm, but pms are shut off again. i just wanted you to know i saw it, and that it was a sign that you have nothing further to present on this issue....

    and yes, gwb should be tried. what good are laws and international agreements when they are not applied to everyone involved?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    when did america become above the geneva convention?

    why is there no other country or group of countries that will sanction or reprimand us?


    I think Jason nailed it, the reason that no country will sanction us is because in the most serious cases they would need to use our military to do it...what country is going to impose a naval blockade on us, or stop doing business with us...it just isn't feasible...

    Also, I think most countries probably do some form of these interrogations...that isn't a justification for it, just more to the idea that if they all do it how can they point the fingers at us...we probably have files on each and every one of their security agencies and their practices and I am sure those files would get "leaked" if they tried to come out and say we were wrong in a more formal way than simply a diplomatic statement...I wonder how all that political posturing gets done without backbones?
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
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  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,479
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    when did america become above the geneva convention?

    why is there no other country or group of countries that will sanction or reprimand us?


    I think Jason nailed it, the reason that no country will sanction us is because in the most serious cases they would need to use our military to do it...what country is going to impose a naval blockade on us, or stop doing business with us...it just isn't feasible...

    Also, I think most countries probably do some form of these interrogations...that isn't a justification for it, just more to the idea that if they all do it how can they point the fingers at us...we probably have files on each and every one of their security agencies and their practices and I am sure those files would get "leaked" if they tried to come out and say we were wrong in a more formal way than simply a diplomatic statement...I wonder how all that political posturing gets done without backbones?
    well then we should not fraudulently claim to be the beacon of freedom and human rights and claim that we are above participating in these torturous actions when clearly we are doing these things.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • wolfamongwolves
    wolfamongwolves Posts: 2,414
    edited May 2011
    usamamasan1 wrote:
    well then, i guess i have proved my point...they are NOT legally torture bc i see nobody chaining GW up and taking him to trial.

    woot


    :lol: Is that supposed to be logic?!

    My friend, you have a long way to go to prove your point... but you have pretty well illustrated mine. You've just used exactly the same arse-about-face attempt at logic that the Bush administration used in moving the goalposts and redefining torture to fit their bill. Didn't work for them, isn't working for you.
    Post edited by wolfamongwolves on
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,329
    •If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to get around the law.
    •If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to get them legally.
    That is why I trust the conservatives over the liberals with keeping our country safe.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,479
    Jason P wrote:
    •If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to get around the law.
    •If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to get them legally.
    That is why I trust the conservatives over the liberals with keeping our country safe.
    did a centrist not just bag osama bin laden?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,329
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    •If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to get around the law.
    •If a liberal see an enemy he wonders what he can do to get them legally.
    That is why I trust the conservatives over the liberals with keeping our country safe.
    did a centrist not just bag osama bin laden?
    And he extended the Patriot Act as well. It's easy to say during campaigns that the U.S. should end E.I.T.'s, close Gitmo, and end the Patriot Act ... until you find yourself in the driver's seat of the country ... that is when reality sets in ... I'm glad Obama realized this even though the far-left part of his voter base is angry about it.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • butterjam
    butterjam Posts: 221
    brianlux wrote:
    311jj wrote:
    I believe the first question that you needs to be asked is "Do you consider waterboarding torture?" Personally, I do not. We do it to our own special ops. I am lucky to personally know a handful of green berets and rangers. I've discussed this at length with them back when all this hit the news. They said it sucked, but were adamant that we do it to our soldiers and certain captives. I believe that if we do it to our own we can do it to our enemies. That is where I draw the line.

    But that's my line and that really doesn't mean sh*t. It is what our gov't and int'l law decide is torture.

    To me the larger issue is our foreign policy itself. If we want to "spread democracy", we need to act like a true and fair democracy. This includes closing Gitmo, giving all captives fair and humane treatment, quit starting unjust wars, bombing and occupying countries,etc.

    I truly believe that all of the blowback from these horrific things that we do, in the name of democracy and protecting the citizens, is far worse than if we did do what I suggested above.

    There will always be evil in this world, you can't put an end to it, but you can minimize it. Evil begets evil.


    Waterboarding not torutre? That's the first time I've heard that. I don't know about you, but I'm not in a hurry to try it.


    You've honestly never heard someone say that waterboarding is not torture? Such as Bush, Cheney, all of their lawyers, people in this thread, etc. I'm not saying I would do it or want it done to me, but if we use it to "train" our soldiers, then I think we should be able to use it on prisoners.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    311jj wrote:
    You've honestly never heard someone say that waterboarding is not torture? Such as Bush, Cheney, all of their lawyers, people in this thread, etc. I'm not saying I would do it or want it done to me, but if we use it to "train" our soldiers, then I think we should be able to use it on prisoners.

    by all definitions ... waterboarding is torture ... feel free to argue that you are ok with this form of torture but by pretty much all international and US definitions - it is classified as torture ...
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,627
    Jason P wrote:
    And he extended the Patriot Act as well. It's easy to say during campaigns that the U.S. should end E.I.T.'s, close Gitmo, and end the Patriot Act ... until you find yourself in the driver's seat of the country ... that is when reality sets in ... I'm glad Obama realized this even though the far-left part of his voter base is angry about it.

    I'm not sure about your statement about reality setting in. 9/11 could have been stopped with what we had in place at the time. So, say the operation was a bust, then there is no Patriot Act, torture, or Gitmo. Those three things exists because of fear and the creation of a false "war on terror". Reality didn't set in. Mistakes set in which allowed 9/11 and we decided our reality was to let fear dictate choices.

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