that just proves that he is not the big scary liberal/socialist that you all on the right accuse him of being.
i disagree with the patriot act, but it seems that the american people are fine with giving up their rights, and are fine with torturing people, but try to give them universal health care or raise taxes to clinton levels on the rich and they are outraged....strange strange population we are.
The socialist concept is B.S. pundit propaganda ... unfortunately it works on people that are so far right, they can't think for themselves anymore.
Not to derail this into universal health care, but I'm still confused on whatever Obama passed a few years ago. Is it actually universal health care or is it a mandate that everyone has to have health insurance in our current 'effed up system?
universal health care equates to medicare for all. that ain't what we got.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
This is not a personal attack and I honestly mean no disrespect to anyone on this board, but the Pearl Jam Forum is the last place I would have ever expected to see someone write something supporting the use of torture for any reason. :(
get used to it
Not likely. I will never get used to the idea of someone supporting the use of torture here or anywhere else. What can I say? Call me a fool but I say:
Peace
Love and Only Love
I fully support you in your noble ambition. I tried it once upon a time. Good luck!
Cancel my subscription to the Ressurection
Send my credentials to the house of detention
enhanced interrogation techniques. and they seem to have worked just fine in this instance. Thanks again GW for making another tuff choice to protect our country!
enhanced interrogation techniques. and they seem to have worked just fine in this instance. Thanks again GW for making another tuff choice to protect our country!
Woot
uhhh ... did you read the article!? ... beyond the fact, torture is the number 1 recruiting tool used by terrorist organizations - you would have had bin laden sooner ...
In regards to the Patriot Act, what rights have I lost? Has anything changed for the normal law-abiding citizen? Are there a few cases you can present where innocent people have gotten screwed over ... yes you can. That is bound to happen with a-holes fly planes into buildings and change our way of life.
I know who should be concerned with it ... terrorist organizations and sleeper cells. They can't rely on buying disposable phones and using our laws to help plot our demise. But for a bunch of people posting on a PJ message board, it's not like the government is going to devote resources to watch us (unless they are looking for good unintentional comedy ).
I'm just not a big fan of the government gaining access to all of my life's details under the assumption that ANYONE could be a terrorist, including you or me or anyone. The Patriot Act has created a spy government. No one is immune from its reach.
just saying that "if you follow the laws you're fine" makes me want to shove a fork in my eye. Blind acceptance of the laws is you know... kinda the opposite of the concepts of liberty and freedom. I live by nature's laws - by the laws of man. I don't need the government doing a search and seizure of the contents of my bladder... or randomly checking my license plates as it is parked OR on the highway (which they do)... or to set up surveillance cameras on street corners "for my protection"... among a myriad of other things that they do that further defines our current condition as a POLICE STATE.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
enhanced interrogation techniques. and they seem to have worked just fine in this instance. Thanks again GW for making another tuff choice to protect our country!
Woot
uhhh ... did you read the article!? ... beyond the fact, torture is the number 1 recruiting tool used by terrorist organizations - you would have had bin laden sooner ...
I don't think he bothers to read anything that might discredit him. Much easier just to bury your head in the sand and make believe that the right answer is always the one that suits you best.
Post edited by wolfamongwolves on
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
In regards to the Patriot Act, what rights have I lost? Has anything changed for the normal law-abiding citizen? Are there a few cases you can present where innocent people have gotten screwed over ... yes you can. That is bound to happen with a-holes fly planes into buildings and change our way of life.
I know who should be concerned with it ... terrorist organizations and sleeper cells. They can't rely on buying disposable phones and using our laws to help plot our demise. But for a bunch of people posting on a PJ message board, it's not like the government is going to devote resources to watch us (unless they are looking for good unintentional comedy ).
I'm just not a big fan of the government gaining access to all of my life's details under the assumption that ANYONE could be a terrorist, including you or me or anyone. The Patriot Act has created a spy government. No one is immune from its reach.
just saying that "if you follow the laws you're fine" makes me want to shove a fork in my eye. Blind acceptance of the laws is you know... kinda the opposite of the concepts of liberty and freedom. I live by nature's laws - by the laws of man. I don't need the government doing a search and seizure of the contents of my bladder... or randomly checking my license plates as it is parked OR on the highway (which they do)... or to set up surveillance cameras on street corners "for my protection"... among a myriad of other things that they do that further defines our current condition as a POLICE STATE.
I see what you're both saying and I've always been on the fence with this one.
I rationalize it like this though --The way I see it is that using a phone is a priveledge, not a right. You have to pay for that service. Just like flying, you have to agree to a security check. I don't feel like they're doing these things to harass us, but rather to make us safer.
If they wanna listen to my phone conversations, it doesnt change my life at all. I just don't see it as giving up freedoms. I can still have that conversation.
So we're torturing our soldiers when we waterboard them? Should we stop doing this? Or because they are more or less choosing to be waterboarded then it is ok?
Talking with my buddies who have been waterboarded a few times, then strongly believe that we should keep doing this. However, they expressed doubts that after waterboarding KSM 183 that we were able to get any credible info.
I think that's the key here...I'll tell you who killed JFK if you torture me long enough.
Yes, after 183 times. Don't mean to sound krass, but that is beating a dead horse. If he won't say anything credible after a few waterboardings, he won't after 183.
So again, should we stop doing this to our soldiers?
So we're torturing our soldiers when we waterboard them? Should we stop doing this? Or because they are more or less choosing to be waterboarded then it is ok?
Talking with my buddies who have been waterboarded a few times, then strongly believe that we should keep doing this. However, they expressed doubts that after waterboarding KSM 183 that we were able to get any credible info.
I think that's the key here...I'll tell you who killed JFK if you torture me long enough.
Yes, after 183 times. Don't mean to sound krass, but that is beating a dead horse. If he won't say anything credible after a few waterboardings, he won't after 183.
So again, should we stop doing this to our soldiers?
I don't know. Why do they do it to our soldiers? Is it a traiing thing or something (I really didnt know they did this or why).. Is it similar to my cop friend who had to get tazed so they knew how if felt when they did it to a suspected criminal?
I see what you're both saying and I've always been on the fence with this one.
I rationalize it like this though --The way I see it is that using a phone is a priveledge, not a right. You have to pay for that service. Just like flying, you have to agree to a security check. I don't feel like they're doing these things to harass us, but rather to make us safer.
If they wanna listen to my phone conversations, it doesnt change my life at all. I just don't see it as giving up freedoms. I can still have that conversation.
ugh... man I don't know what to say.
Read the book "1984"
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
it's not freedom ... it's the perception of freedom ...
this is what it comes down to ... if you want to lament over human rights violations and abuses around the world ... say how illegal it is to capture people and detain them without trial ... well - stop doing it yourself then ... the next poor journalist or activist that gets captured and tortured in syria can't take refuge in the american flag ...
I see what you're both saying and I've always been on the fence with this one.
I rationalize it like this though --The way I see it is that using a phone is a priveledge, not a right. You have to pay for that service. Just like flying, you have to agree to a security check. I don't feel like they're doing these things to harass us, but rather to make us safer.
If they wanna listen to my phone conversations, it doesnt change my life at all. I just don't see it as giving up freedoms. I can still have that conversation.
ugh... man I don't know what to say.
Read the book "1984"
I'm honesty not trying to argue.. I just think there are several ways at looking at this. I havent read 1984, but i've discussed it at length with people who gave me the same exact response that you just did. Its like a natural reaction some people have to this -- "read 1984"... that's kinda a scare tactic.
But i will get around to reading that one day soon man.
I'm honesty not trying to argue.. I just think there are several ways at looking at this. I havent read 1984, but i've discussed it at length with people who gave me the same exact response that you just did. Its like a natural reaction some people have to this -- "read 1984"... that's kinda a scare tactic.
But i will get around to reading that one day soon man.
I just don't really have time to spell out why your thought process is dangerous. I don't know what you mean by a "scare tactic"... but I think that you would change your opinion by reading Orwell and noticing how what he envisioned as a dystopian nightmare has essentially come true. Hell, read Ayn Rand or MLK or Abraham Lincoln or anyone else who isn't a 21st century propagandist and you'll come to the same conclusion; we live in a Police State and you were born free and F'ed out of half of your freedoms.
The only way society can evolve is with LESS government interaction. Utopia by way of more government involvement (whether it be communisim or fascism) has proven itself to be murderous and nightmarish. To evolve as a civilization and as a SPECIES we have to let humans have more responsibility, more freedom, less intrusion, and less fear that their actions are being scrutinized.
It may sound idealistic to you, but we don't need leaders.
This is the direction of human evolution... a sort of archaic revival where man becomes in tune with himself, other humans, and the planet and its plants and animals.
By allowing the government to "control" this process man is becoming machine. Read my quote below...
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
The guys we are talking about that we are hunting. Do you know what they do? How they treat women/freedom?
Send 'em back. I didn't say bomb 'em. Whatever it takes, overtime pay for NAvy seals APPROVEd!
Winning! Bush kept us safe, now Obama is following suit.
Besides, we only shot Obl's skank in the ank.
Other than the day we lost 3000 civilians, yes...
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
I'm honesty not trying to argue.. I just think there are several ways at looking at this. I havent read 1984, but i've discussed it at length with people who gave me the same exact response that you just did. Its like a natural reaction some people have to this -- "read 1984"... that's kinda a scare tactic.
But i will get around to reading that one day soon man.
I just don't really have time to spell out why your thought process is dangerous. I don't know what you mean by a "scare tactic"... but I think that you would change your opinion by reading Orwell and noticing how what he envisioned as a dystopian nightmare has essentially come true. Hell, read Ayn Rand or MLK or Abraham Lincoln or anyone else who isn't a 21st century propagandist and you'll come to the same conclusion; we live in a Police State and you were born free and F'ed out of half of your freedoms.
The only way society can evolve is with LESS government interaction. Utopia by way of more government involvement (whether it be communisim or fascism) has proven itself to be murderous and nightmarish. To evolve as a civilization and as a SPECIES we have to let humans have more responsibility, more freedom, less intrusion, and less fear that their actions are being scrutinized.
It may sound idealistic to you, but we don't need leaders.
This is the direction of human evolution... a sort of archaic revival where man becomes in tune with himself, other humans, and the planet and its plants and animals.
By allowing the government to "control" this process man is becoming machine. Read my quote below...
I know why you say you think my thought process is dangerous (I completely see what you're getting at, and the many others I've had this same debate with), but I think you've been misled or taken it the wrong way. I would never just sit back and let the govt take control of me (again its just our differeng opinion of 'control'), and if it ever got to the point that I felt they were striving for total control, I'd fight to stop it or I'd leave the f-ing country.
I mean "scare tactic" as in that you've read something and are trying to pass it off as a premonition of sorts. Its just our differing opinion man.. I just don't see it as a path to that. I just don't want to use a book, or a work of fiction, as a guide for the ways the future might turn out under our current courses of action.
I very much agree with what I underlined in your post, but I'm just in the opinion that I haven't felt intrusion or that we're on a path to a point where the govt will control us.
I do disagree, however, that you don't think we need leaders. I think there are people who cannot be leaders and without some sort of outline, these people will create chaos. I believe there have been leaders and followers since the beginning of time.
Sure there can be leaders, but there must be a voluntary association if everyone else is assumed to be a "follower." I surely wouldn't volunteer as such... and so to me that is the first step towards being a wage slave in a Police State.
Maybe I am idealist. Maybe I do lean towards Orwell and Thoreau for guidance... but ham-fisted pragmatism REALLY does not appeal to me, either.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
King is a jackass and I cringe every time I see his face. I can't believe he's on that fucking panel at all. Anyone who thinks torture is ok is then admitting that other countries have the right to torture US soldiers. This is all speculation...have heard numerous people say that a lot of the intelligence we received came months after people were waterboarded which doesn't equate to waterboarding=accurate information. King is a fucking idiot who will do more harm than good sitting on a national security board.
King is a jackass and I cringe every time I see his face. I can't believe he's on that fucking panel at all. Anyone who thinks torture is ok is then admitting that other countries have the right to torture US soldiers. This is all speculation...have heard numerous people say that a lot of the intelligence we received came months after people were waterboarded which doesn't equate to waterboarding=accurate information. King is a fucking idiot who will do more harm than good sitting on a national security board.
that is exactly what they are saying. "they would do it to us, so we will do it to them".
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
0
81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
I'm honesty not trying to argue.. I just think there are several ways at looking at this. I havent read 1984, but i've discussed it at length with people who gave me the same exact response that you just did. Its like a natural reaction some people have to this -- "read 1984"... that's kinda a scare tactic.
But i will get around to reading that one day soon man.
I just don't really have time to spell out why your thought process is dangerous. I don't know what you mean by a "scare tactic"... but I think that you would change your opinion by reading Orwell and noticing how what he envisioned as a dystopian nightmare has essentially come true. Hell, read Ayn Rand or MLK or Abraham Lincoln or anyone else who isn't a 21st century propagandist and you'll come to the same conclusion; we live in a Police State and you were born free and F'ed out of half of your freedoms.
The only way society can evolve is with LESS government interaction. Utopia by way of more government involvement (whether it be communisim or fascism) has proven itself to be murderous and nightmarish. To evolve as a civilization and as a SPECIES we have to let humans have more responsibility, more freedom, less intrusion, and less fear that their actions are being scrutinized.
It may sound idealistic to you, but we don't need leaders.
This is the direction of human evolution... a sort of archaic revival where man becomes in tune with himself, other humans, and the planet and its plants and animals.
By allowing the government to "control" this process man is becoming machine. Read my quote below...
I sometimes think this, and then I go out in public.
I sometimes think this, and then I go out in public.
you're right, most people aren't ready to take control of their own lives. That doesn't mean we have to lower our expectations to suit their standards.
I guess what I'm advocating is a right-anarchist approach. ugh I hope I don't sound like Ayn Rand...
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
I sometimes think this, and then I go out in public.
you're right, most people aren't ready to take control of their own lives. That doesn't mean we have to lower our expectations to suit their standards.
I guess what I'm advocating is a right-anarchist approach. ugh I hope I don't sound like Ayn Rand...
I think we may be on the same page, or at least in the same chapter, with our ideas, though I don't know if I would label myself a right anarchist. My lament is the fact that we are an individualized culture--me, me , me--when we all have to realize that we are part of a society. If we want an unchecked, free market system, then the continuing trend--and it is continuing as we speak--of the few having all the wealth will result in disastrous consequences. The number of millionaires is increasing while those living in poverty is as well. And, if anyone attempts to "correct" that situation, then they are a "socialist."Think of a society with gated communities surrounded by slums. What will happen after that?
As the population increases, so will the restrictions. It is simply an unfortunate by-product of overpopulation. You talk about evolving as a species, but I simply do not see that happening. And, i don't blame the government for that, I blame the people.
And, this: "This is the direction of human evolution... a sort of archaic revival where man becomes in tune with himself, other humans, and the planet and its plants and animals," as you put it, will simply never happen. Again, I see it too often as I am out in public. I sometimes get physically ill.
Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.
"The road to bin Laden began with waterboarding," Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y., House Homeland Security Chairman, said in an NBC News interview in which he asserted that waterboarding is a "moral imperative" that "saves lives."
Now ask yourself, how many more terrorists has waterboarding and other forms of torture created?
Still smiling?
Since you seem to know, how many? Would waterboarding or waterboarding have made a difference in the number of terrorists out there? Considering they want to do much worse to us, I would say "probably not."
2003: San Antonio, Houston, Dallas, Seattle; 2005: Monterrey; 2006: Chicago 1 & 2, Grand Rapids, Cleveland, Detroit; 2008: West Palm Beach, Tampa; 2009: Austin, LA 3 & 4, San Diego; 2010: Kansas City, St. Louis, Columbus, Indianapolis; 2011: PJ20 1 & 2; 2012: Missoula; 2013: Dallas, Oklahoma City, Seattle; 2014: Tulsa; 2016: Columbia, New York City 1 & 2; 2018: London, Seattle 1 & 2; 2021: Ohana; 2022: Oklahoma City
Do you know what they do? How they treat women/freedom?
yep, probably a little better than the US treats some of its detainees.
I doubt that. I also don't equate innocent women with terrorist detainees.
2003: San Antonio, Houston, Dallas, Seattle; 2005: Monterrey; 2006: Chicago 1 & 2, Grand Rapids, Cleveland, Detroit; 2008: West Palm Beach, Tampa; 2009: Austin, LA 3 & 4, San Diego; 2010: Kansas City, St. Louis, Columbus, Indianapolis; 2011: PJ20 1 & 2; 2012: Missoula; 2013: Dallas, Oklahoma City, Seattle; 2014: Tulsa; 2016: Columbia, New York City 1 & 2; 2018: London, Seattle 1 & 2; 2021: Ohana; 2022: Oklahoma City
Do you know what they do? How they treat women/freedom?
yep, probably a little better than the US treats some of its detainees.
I doubt that. I also don't equate innocent women with terrorist detainees.
And what about the non-terrorist detainees, you know - the majority of those who ended up in Guantánamo? You know the ones who were maltreated and abused by the US army... and then released without charge? You know, people like Sami al-Laithi, a man who had his freedom taken away, and was crippled, rendered paraplegic by US army beatings at Camp Delta, and was then deemed to be innocent?
What does that say about how the US army/govt respects people, freedom, or human rights?
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
I'm just not a big fan of the government gaining access to all of my life's details under the assumption that ANYONE could be a terrorist, including you or me or anyone. The Patriot Act has created a spy government. No one is immune from its reach.
just saying that "if you follow the laws you're fine" makes me want to shove a fork in my eye. Blind acceptance of the laws is you know... kinda the opposite of the concepts of liberty and freedom. I live by nature's laws - by the laws of man. I don't need the government doing a search and seizure of the contents of my bladder... or randomly checking my license plates as it is parked OR on the highway (which they do)... or to set up surveillance cameras on street corners "for my protection"... among a myriad of other things that they do that further defines our current condition as a POLICE STATE.
If you live in America, then I'm sure you are aware that the American society has been set up to be policed well before 9/11 and the Patriot Act. You can't even live by nature's laws if you go live in the nature ... I've had rangers actually make me move camp because the campsite I set up in was within 90 feet of water instead of 100 feet. And even though I promised to make little to no impact, I had to pack up and move 4 miles at dusk to the next suitable site because "rules are rules".
That's the way the American society is setup .... A-holes mistreat the rights they have or impact the environment that we share and everyone pays for it.
After thinking about it over the weekend, I'm glad there are those of you that are adamantly against it as it provides checks and balance to governing power. But I'm OK with the Patriot Act because of all of the idiotic rules and laws that are enforced in this country, this one doesn't act against me and hopefully not against anyone on this board. It does however, make it much more difficult for those who see civilians in the same light as our military and would have no regret over killing anyone within our borders.
Note: As for the references to Orson Well's novel "1984", it's been ten years since the Patriot Act and the "people" are worse then the government when it comes to monitoring the populace with the advent of cell phone cameras. I only worry about the government monitoring at tolls and red-light cameras. However, if I'm famous and try to pick my nose, there is a good chance it will end up on TMZ.
The government on the other hand, only wants to monitor you if they want your money or if you are really engaged in some evil doings (and even then they are not as effective as when it comes to taking our money from us).
Comments
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I fully support you in your noble ambition. I tried it once upon a time. Good luck!
Send my credentials to the house of detention
basically, torture doesn't work and actually hinders progress ... sorta like pouring water on a grease fire ...
Woot
uhhh ... did you read the article!? ... beyond the fact, torture is the number 1 recruiting tool used by terrorist organizations - you would have had bin laden sooner ...
I'm just not a big fan of the government gaining access to all of my life's details under the assumption that ANYONE could be a terrorist, including you or me or anyone. The Patriot Act has created a spy government. No one is immune from its reach.
just saying that "if you follow the laws you're fine" makes me want to shove a fork in my eye. Blind acceptance of the laws is you know... kinda the opposite of the concepts of liberty and freedom. I live by nature's laws - by the laws of man. I don't need the government doing a search and seizure of the contents of my bladder... or randomly checking my license plates as it is parked OR on the highway (which they do)... or to set up surveillance cameras on street corners "for my protection"... among a myriad of other things that they do that further defines our current condition as a POLICE STATE.
I don't think he bothers to read anything that might discredit him. Much easier just to bury your head in the sand and make believe that the right answer is always the one that suits you best.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
I see what you're both saying and I've always been on the fence with this one.
I rationalize it like this though --The way I see it is that using a phone is a priveledge, not a right. You have to pay for that service. Just like flying, you have to agree to a security check. I don't feel like they're doing these things to harass us, but rather to make us safer.
If they wanna listen to my phone conversations, it doesnt change my life at all. I just don't see it as giving up freedoms. I can still have that conversation.
Yes, after 183 times. Don't mean to sound krass, but that is beating a dead horse. If he won't say anything credible after a few waterboardings, he won't after 183.
So again, should we stop doing this to our soldiers?
I don't know. Why do they do it to our soldiers? Is it a traiing thing or something (I really didnt know they did this or why).. Is it similar to my cop friend who had to get tazed so they knew how if felt when they did it to a suspected criminal?
ugh... man I don't know what to say.
Read the book "1984"
this is what it comes down to ... if you want to lament over human rights violations and abuses around the world ... say how illegal it is to capture people and detain them without trial ... well - stop doing it yourself then ... the next poor journalist or activist that gets captured and tortured in syria can't take refuge in the american flag ...
I'm honesty not trying to argue.. I just think there are several ways at looking at this. I havent read 1984, but i've discussed it at length with people who gave me the same exact response that you just did. Its like a natural reaction some people have to this -- "read 1984"... that's kinda a scare tactic.
But i will get around to reading that one day soon man.
I just don't really have time to spell out why your thought process is dangerous. I don't know what you mean by a "scare tactic"... but I think that you would change your opinion by reading Orwell and noticing how what he envisioned as a dystopian nightmare has essentially come true. Hell, read Ayn Rand or MLK or Abraham Lincoln or anyone else who isn't a 21st century propagandist and you'll come to the same conclusion; we live in a Police State and you were born free and F'ed out of half of your freedoms.
The only way society can evolve is with LESS government interaction. Utopia by way of more government involvement (whether it be communisim or fascism) has proven itself to be murderous and nightmarish. To evolve as a civilization and as a SPECIES we have to let humans have more responsibility, more freedom, less intrusion, and less fear that their actions are being scrutinized.
It may sound idealistic to you, but we don't need leaders.
This is the direction of human evolution... a sort of archaic revival where man becomes in tune with himself, other humans, and the planet and its plants and animals.
By allowing the government to "control" this process man is becoming machine. Read my quote below...
I know why you say you think my thought process is dangerous (I completely see what you're getting at, and the many others I've had this same debate with), but I think you've been misled or taken it the wrong way. I would never just sit back and let the govt take control of me (again its just our differeng opinion of 'control'), and if it ever got to the point that I felt they were striving for total control, I'd fight to stop it or I'd leave the f-ing country.
I mean "scare tactic" as in that you've read something and are trying to pass it off as a premonition of sorts. Its just our differing opinion man.. I just don't see it as a path to that. I just don't want to use a book, or a work of fiction, as a guide for the ways the future might turn out under our current courses of action.
I very much agree with what I underlined in your post, but I'm just in the opinion that I haven't felt intrusion or that we're on a path to a point where the govt will control us.
I do disagree, however, that you don't think we need leaders. I think there are people who cannot be leaders and without some sort of outline, these people will create chaos. I believe there have been leaders and followers since the beginning of time.
Maybe I am idealist. Maybe I do lean towards Orwell and Thoreau for guidance... but ham-fisted pragmatism REALLY does not appeal to me, either.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
way to bring up one of his biggest regrets.
I sometimes think this, and then I go out in public.
you're right, most people aren't ready to take control of their own lives. That doesn't mean we have to lower our expectations to suit their standards.
I guess what I'm advocating is a right-anarchist approach. ugh I hope I don't sound like Ayn Rand...
I think we may be on the same page, or at least in the same chapter, with our ideas, though I don't know if I would label myself a right anarchist. My lament is the fact that we are an individualized culture--me, me , me--when we all have to realize that we are part of a society. If we want an unchecked, free market system, then the continuing trend--and it is continuing as we speak--of the few having all the wealth will result in disastrous consequences. The number of millionaires is increasing while those living in poverty is as well. And, if anyone attempts to "correct" that situation, then they are a "socialist."Think of a society with gated communities surrounded by slums. What will happen after that?
As the population increases, so will the restrictions. It is simply an unfortunate by-product of overpopulation. You talk about evolving as a species, but I simply do not see that happening. And, i don't blame the government for that, I blame the people.
And, this: "This is the direction of human evolution... a sort of archaic revival where man becomes in tune with himself, other humans, and the planet and its plants and animals," as you put it, will simply never happen. Again, I see it too often as I am out in public. I sometimes get physically ill.
Since you seem to know, how many? Would waterboarding or waterboarding have made a difference in the number of terrorists out there? Considering they want to do much worse to us, I would say "probably not."
yep, probably a little better than the US treats some of its detainees.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I doubt that. I also don't equate innocent women with terrorist detainees.
And what about the non-terrorist detainees, you know - the majority of those who ended up in Guantánamo? You know the ones who were maltreated and abused by the US army... and then released without charge? You know, people like Sami al-Laithi, a man who had his freedom taken away, and was crippled, rendered paraplegic by US army beatings at Camp Delta, and was then deemed to be innocent?
What does that say about how the US army/govt respects people, freedom, or human rights?
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
That's the way the American society is setup .... A-holes mistreat the rights they have or impact the environment that we share and everyone pays for it.
After thinking about it over the weekend, I'm glad there are those of you that are adamantly against it as it provides checks and balance to governing power. But I'm OK with the Patriot Act because of all of the idiotic rules and laws that are enforced in this country, this one doesn't act against me and hopefully not against anyone on this board. It does however, make it much more difficult for those who see civilians in the same light as our military and would have no regret over killing anyone within our borders.
The government on the other hand, only wants to monitor you if they want your money or if you are really engaged in some evil doings (and even then they are not as effective as when it comes to taking our money from us).