What "assertion" did I make, exactly? I believe I asked a question. And the point of asking that question is precicely that I don't know. But if the government is as interested in the transparency of this whole situation as they claim to be, then they should be answering those questions so we do know why they couldn't capture an unarmed man. I'm just asking for answers, a little clarity, a little consistency.
No need to get uppity.
By the way, for having claimed not to know yourself, you rattle off a fairly descriptive account yourself...
fair enough, I may have jumped to the conclusion you were trying to make a commentary about whether or not the killing was justified...if that wasn't your assertion than I apologize
I did get a little detailed I suppose, just guessing though...either that or I was there I am quite the bad ass
No problem.
But just to clarify - as I see it, whether the killing was "justifed"/justifiable is pretty much dependent on the answer to the question I was asking. My strong suspicion is that it was not. But as we agree, none of us really know what happened, and they're not doing a good job of telling us.
Post edited by wolfamongwolves on
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
0
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I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
I wish they would have taken him alive, not that my feelings are hurt that they didn't.
Well, he had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes, so it's safe to say that he was prepared for the possibility that he'd be discovered at some point. Also, the bomb could have been in the room, not just on him, although him wearing it was the first thought I had. As it turns out, they have said that they had to operate under the assumption he was wearing a suicide vest.
Just imagine if that had been the case and they gave him the opportunity to detonate the bomb because they were trying to capture him even though he refused to surrender. I don't know how many SEALs were in the room at the time, but it's safe to say it was more than 1. So, yeah, bin Laden would still be dead but the mission couldn't really be considered a success. To al-Qadea, he would have not just died a martyr, he would have died a hero who won his battle with the American troops based on body count. In that way, his death would have actually strengthened al-Qaeda instead of weakening it.
One thing that stands out for me from this is that he seems to be saying that surrender or killing were the only possibilities. He doesn't even look at the elephant in the room - even if he didn't surrender, why were a whole troop of Navy SEALs incapable of overpowering and capturing a single unarmed man?
Here's the simple answer: they didn't know if he had any sort of bomb or other type of weapon under his clothes. If he didn't have his hands in the air and empty, then how can they be sure he's not going to grab a weapon or a device to detonate a bomb under his clothes? Unless he was naked when they walked in the room, they had to consider their own safety in that situation. It's not out of the realm of possibility that he would have decided to kill himself and take them all out with him rather than let them capture or kill him. Also, if he was reaching for a weapon, who's to say that they'd be able to subdue him before he gets to fire a round or 2 at them? That was not the time for them to give someone the benefit of the doubt.
That could be a possibilty. Two things would make me doubt it, though.
First, why would he be be wearing a hidden bomb when it was a surprise raid? I know there are some wild assumptions about turrurists out there, but I doubt anyone believes that their underwear of choice is a suicide vest!
Second, if it was the case, surely they would have used it as a justification by now. Why not say, "He appeared to be unarmed, but there was reason to believe he was wearing a suicide vest."
Well, he had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes, so it's safe to say that he was prepared for the possibility that he'd be discovered at some point.
That's a very different thing from wearing a suicide vest on the off-chance that you might be discovered.
As it turns out, they have said that they had to operate under the assumption he was wearing a suicide vest.
Ok, fair enough, they did say it. Still, I think it's highly improbable that - unless he was aware there was going to be a raid - he would be wearing a vest. And if on entering the room, they could see that there were guns there, but he wasn't armed with them, it would be an obvious assumption that he was taken by surprise by the raid, and therefore almost certainly wouldn't be wearing a suicide vest.
Just imagine if that had been the case and they gave him the opportunity to detonate the bomb because they were trying to capture him even though he refused to surrender. I don't know how many SEALs were in the room at the time, but it's safe to say it was more than 1. So, yeah, bin Laden would still be dead but the mission couldn't really be considered a success. To al-Qadea, he would have not just died a martyr, he would have died a hero who won his battle with the American troops based on body count. In that way, his death would have actually strengthened al-Qaeda instead of weakening it.
An interesting point, considering that there are some who are saying that that is what actually happened:
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
While it may have been improbable, it was plausible. Why would any of those SEALs risk getting himself and his fellow SEALs killed by assuming that he wasn't going to do something like that? He had to realize that if he didn't immediately surrender that they would kill him and he still decided not to surrender. If you were one of those SEALs, wouldn't that make you suspect that he wasn't going to go quietly, especially when you were warned that he might have a suicide vest?
Well, he had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes, so it's safe to say that he was prepared for the possibility that he'd be discovered at some point.
That's a very different thing from wearing a suicide vest on the off-chance that you might be discovered.
As it turns out, they have said that they had to operate under the assumption he was wearing a suicide vest.
Ok, fair enough, they did say it. Still, I think it's highly improbable that - unless he was aware there was going to be a raid - he would be wearing a vest. And if on entering the room, they could see that there were guns there, but he wasn't armed with them, it would be an obvious assumption that he was taken by surprise by the raid, and therefore almost certainly wouldn't be wearing a suicide vest.
Just imagine if that had been the case and they gave him the opportunity to detonate the bomb because they were trying to capture him even though he refused to surrender. I don't know how many SEALs were in the room at the time, but it's safe to say it was more than 1. So, yeah, bin Laden would still be dead but the mission couldn't really be considered a success. To al-Qadea, he would have not just died a martyr, he would have died a hero who won his battle with the American troops based on body count. In that way, his death would have actually strengthened al-Qaeda instead of weakening it.
An interesting point, considering that there are some who are saying that that is what actually happened:
While it may have been improbable, it was plausible. Why would any of those SEALs risk getting himself and his fellow SEALs killed by assuming that he wasn't going to do something like that? He had to realize that if he didn't immediately surrender that they would kill him and he still decided not to surrender. If you were one of those SEALs, wouldn't that make you suspect that he wasn't going to go quietly, especially when you were warned that he might have a suicide vest?
Perhaps. Though until/unless we get honest answers about what did happen, how exactly he did resist and whether it merited shooting him, we just can't know. You say improbable but plausible; I say plausible but improbable. I don't know if that amounts to the same thing.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
I don't care. Governments should keep secrets and this is one of them. No good can come out of revealing the exact details. Those that criticize will find a way to criticize. Those that support will support regardless. We will fit the reason to our world view, so there's no good that can come from it.
He's dead. The world is no less of a place without him. The only folks that will miss him are those that have been convinced that dying for your cause is a good thing. So, they are applauding us for granting him the very wish he asks of his followers. May he be enjoying his 72 vegans as we speak.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
that was not worth 15 minutes. just saying it doesn't make it true... I love revisionist history
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
what do you mean? the CIA was "in on it" until August 2001, as a CIA operative met with OBL in Dubai that month. Bush was given the keys to take out OBL by the Taliban (twice), but refused. The FBI higher ups conspired to stop agents from working on islamic militants in the US in 1996, and only re-opened the case on 9/12/2001. There are a half-dozen other facts presented in the video that document either outright conspiracy or extreme ignorance.
The highest circles of American intelligence were friends with OBL until 9/11, then they used him as "the boogie man" immediately following 9/11 to begin the war(s) in the Middle East.
OBL was an evil man, and he is dead (although I don't believe he is in the Indian Ocean). The point here is that the US used OBL as a puppet of fear to wage war, when it is pretty clear that he had little to no involvement in 9/11.
I lost a pair of sunglasses in knee high surf .... I'm guessing this guy doesn't have much luck. And if he does, why the hell isn't he treasure hunting!
Apparantly, relations between the US and Pakistan have improved quite a bit since the raid!
Pakistani Intelligence Announces Its Full Cooperation With U.S. Forces During Upcoming Top Secret June 12 Drone Strike On Al-Qaeda At 5:23 A.M. Near Small Town Of Razmani In North Waziristan
ISLAMABAD—Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency restated Thursday its commitment to the fight against terrorism, pledging full cooperation with U.S. forces during the upcoming strike on an al-Qaeda safe house on June 12 at 5:23 a.m. near the small town of Razmani in the remote tribal region of North Waziristan.
At a hastily convened press conference, ISI chief Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha called Pakistan's long- standing partnership with the United States "stronger than ever," explaining that both countries share an interest in rooting out al-Qaeda before its leaders have time to gather their secret cache of hidden weapons and move to a new location, possibly a tribal area in northwest Pakistan where Pasha said U.S. intelligence is limited in both its sophistication and reach.
"Make no mistake, Pakistan stands shoulder to shoulder with our American allies in hunting down those who threaten our national security," said Pasha, circling the exact location of the safe house on a large satellite photo of the town. "And we will show no mercy in targeting them, whether it be on the battlefield or, perhaps, in a bunker where the walls are thicker and offer better protection from Predator drone attacks."
"These are highly dangerous men," he continued, "who will be taken out at 5:23 a.m. I repeat: The strike begins at 5:23 a.m."
Pasha emphasized the ISI's extensive integration with U.S. forces in planning the attack, saying that the specific time was agreed upon to ensure the terrorists wouldn't try to escape across the porous Afghan border, which he noted is often poorly guarded—especially near the town of Shirhani—at that hour of the morning.
Pasha added that the drones would be coming from the west, targeting the main part of the compound where al-Qaeda operatives would likely be sleeping and not loading all laptops, assault rifles, sensitive documents detailing plans for future attacks, and shoulder-to-air missile launchers into pickup trucks and fleeing as quickly as possible.
"Throughout the mission, we will be in constant contact with American commanders, providing up-to-the minute intelligence assessments and information on enemy movements," Pasha said. "As the strike unfolds, real-time updates will be transmitted to them via UHF frequency 11.2535."
Added Pasha, "We've also changed the code words we use with the Americans, which is vital to our overall communications strategy."
haha... dude, I read about three paragraphs and probably had this wicked incredulous look on my face before I realized it was fake! Next time post The Onion link at the TOP of the article
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
haha... dude, I read about three paragraphs and probably had this wicked incredulous look on my face before I realized it was fake! Next time post The Onion link at the TOP of the article
I lost a pair of sunglasses in knee high surf .... I'm guessing this guy doesn't have much luck. And if he does, why the hell isn't he treasure hunting!
Did you even read it? There is a chance the body could be recovered.
what do you mean? the CIA was "in on it" until August 2001, as a CIA operative met with OBL in Dubai that month. Bush was given the keys to take out OBL by the Taliban (twice), but refused. The FBI higher ups conspired to stop agents from working on islamic militants in the US in 1996, and only re-opened the case on 9/12/2001. There are a half-dozen other facts presented in the video that document either outright conspiracy or extreme ignorance.
The highest circles of American intelligence were friends with OBL until 9/11, then they used him as "the boogie man" immediately following 9/11 to begin the war(s) in the Middle East.
OBL was an evil man, and he is dead (although I don't believe he is in the Indian Ocean). The point here is that the US used OBL as a puppet of fear to wage war, when it is pretty clear that he had little to no involvement in 9/11.
that was not worth 15 minutes. just saying it doesn't make it true... I love revisionist history
what exactly is revisionist about the video?
Looking back at "facts" and opinions and making them fit some scheme is quite revisionist...
taking peoples opinions and making them seem like some undiscovered bit of evidence and fact...is quite revisionist...looking at the list of people who were flown out of the country as some sort of expose when in reality it was probably a safety measure...as some sort of smoking gun...
making claims that cia operatives met with bin laden in august...without a shred of actual evidence besides one news reporters claim...simply saying they saw him there and that he boasted about it...the best part is that in the quote about the meeting it says alleged but the guy speaks it as TRUTH....that is the problem I have with it and the credibility of his claims...people have seen elvis too...these kinds of here say things would be MASSIVE STORIES if they were actually true...do you think the press in the US would protect Bush or anyone in his administration?...lol..you have got to be kidding...Clinton could have taken him out too...is he in on it?
Seriously...I don't want to get into it with you because if you want to believe the US government attacked itself to pass the patriot act or whatever the hell other reasons there were to go to war in the mind of the conspiracist I cannot change that for you...it isn't my job to change it...you can think whatever you want...I was just telling you my opinion on whether or not it was worth 15 minutes...it wasn't. these are the same baseless half truths that have been made hundreds of times before...what was new in this video? that wasn't known before?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
reading comprehension is not your forte I guess... I never said that I thought the US attacked itself or knew about 9/11 before it happened. These "opinions" that you talk about are from other intelligence agencies and leaks of US intelligence reports, as well as former operatives who've defected. The facts are there... just because it is discomforting to you shouldn't mean that you automatically assume it can't be true.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
I lost a pair of sunglasses in knee high surf .... I'm guessing this guy doesn't have much luck. And if he does, why the hell isn't he treasure hunting!
Did you even read it? There is a chance the body could be recovered.
Yeah, I read the article. My reason for being very skeptical are
1) It took the French two years to find the black box from the flight that crashed off the coast of Brazil into the Atlantic ... and that was a device that was built so it could be found easily and they knew the general area in which the debris was scattered.
2) Bin Laden is just as likely to be in Area 51 or met his demise in a crematorium then resting in Bikini Bottom.
This guy says he has investors helping fund his expedition but "victims" is probably what they really are. I smell a con.
reading comprehension is not your forte I guess... I never said that I thought the US attacked itself or knew about 9/11 before it happened. These "opinions" that you talk about are from other intelligence agencies and leaks of US intelligence reports, as well as former operatives who've defected. The facts are there... just because it is discomforting to you shouldn't mean that you automatically assume it can't be true.
it isn't discomforting...and there was no need to attack my reading comprehension...I can read and comprehend just fine thank you and have read about this and many other conspiracies...the main goal is usually the same .... make the US look like it attacked itself to start some sort of war for oil...and if you believe in the form of the conspiracy presented in this great 15 minute video than the next conclusion is the US did it to itself is it not?
You didn't expressly say that is what you thought, but the implication in this video and others like it is that the US was complicit...
the facts are certainly there...to be manipulated anyway conspiracists see fit...if bin Laden was not guilty...why wouldn't he run to a place like Iran or China or N Korea for protection and tell the whole world his crazy story of deep involvement in the CIA? ...the KISS principle still applies to things like this even though they are on an international espionage like level...
but you are right...it must be because I cannot read or comprehend words...its a good thing I have someone here to type for me otherwise I probably couldn't even communicate...but I shouldn't take your backhanded comments too seriously anyway...you were the one who called me a liberal and told me how much I love government...but I should stop now because I don't want to lock the thread for everyone else
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
reading comprehension is not your forte I guess... I never said that I thought the US attacked itself or knew about 9/11 before it happened. These "opinions" that you talk about are from other intelligence agencies and leaks of US intelligence reports, as well as former operatives who've defected. The facts are there... just because it is discomforting to you shouldn't mean that you automatically assume it can't be true.
it isn't discomforting...and there was no need to attack my reading comprehension...I can read and comprehend just fine thank you and have read about this and many other conspiracies...the main goal is usually the same .... make the US look like it attacked itself to start some sort of war for oil...and if you believe in the form of the conspiracy presented in this great 15 minute video than the next conclusion is the US did it to itself is it not?
You didn't expressly say that is what you thought, but the implication in this video and others like it is that the US was complicit...
the facts are certainly there...to be manipulated anyway conspiracists see fit...if bin Laden was not guilty...why wouldn't he run to a place like Iran or China or N Korea for protection and tell the whole world his crazy story of deep involvement in the CIA? ...the KISS principle still applies to things like this even though they are on an international espionage like level...
but you are right...it must be because I cannot read or comprehend words...its a good thing I have someone here to type for me otherwise I probably couldn't even communicate...but I shouldn't take your backhanded comments too seriously anyway...you were the one who called me a liberal and told me how much I love government...but I should stop now because I don't want to lock the thread for everyone else
For future reference: invoking Ockham's Razor makes you sound smarter than bringing up the KISS principle...Comprende? :P
Didn't OBL say that his entire plan was to bankrupt the US via the war on terror? Running to China or Iran would have screwed that all up. Besides....do you honestly think anyone would believe an OBL statement released via the Iranian government? It would be completely discredited in every mainstream story about it...
According to the official story (which you seem to buy into), he wanted to be hunted....
reading comprehension is not your forte I guess... I never said that I thought the US attacked itself or knew about 9/11 before it happened. These "opinions" that you talk about are from other intelligence agencies and leaks of US intelligence reports, as well as former operatives who've defected. The facts are there... just because it is discomforting to you shouldn't mean that you automatically assume it can't be true.
it isn't discomforting...and there was no need to attack my reading comprehension...I can read and comprehend just fine thank you and have read about this and many other conspiracies...the main goal is usually the same .... make the US look like it attacked itself to start some sort of war for oil...and if you believe in the form of the conspiracy presented in this great 15 minute video than the next conclusion is the US did it to itself is it not?
You didn't expressly say that is what you thought, but the implication in this video and others like it is that the US was complicit...
the facts are certainly there...to be manipulated anyway conspiracists see fit...if bin Laden was not guilty...why wouldn't he run to a place like Iran or China or N Korea for protection and tell the whole world his crazy story of deep involvement in the CIA? ...the KISS principle still applies to things like this even though they are on an international espionage like level...
but you are right...it must be because I cannot read or comprehend words...its a good thing I have someone here to type for me otherwise I probably couldn't even communicate...but I shouldn't take your backhanded comments too seriously anyway...you were the one who called me a liberal and told me how much I love government...but I should stop now because I don't want to lock the thread for everyone else
For future reference: invoking Ockham's Razor makes you sound smarter than bringing up the KISS principle...Comprende? :P
Didn't OBL say that his entire plan was to bankrupt the US via the war on terror? Running to China or Iran would have screwed that all up. Besides....do you honestly think anyone would believe an OBL statement released via the Iranian government? It would be completely discredited in every mainstream story about it...
According to the official story (which you seem to buy into), he wanted to be hunted....
but since I can barely read the KISS principle suits me just fine...but what does the word invoking mean? or entireor running? I am just a caveman, confused by your big words.
I don't necessarily buy the "official story' but I find it difficult to believe the assertion in the video. I just don't think that as many people as would be necessary and complicit in this type of government operation would be able to do so without the entire thing crumbling. Unfortunately not buying the crazy stories of US involvement to further some war agenda means to many that I am simply a stooge or blind or too stupid to read...
If bin Laden consistently claimed innocence there would be plenty of people around the world willing to believe his story...especially with evidence he would surely have in his possession of all of his dealings...seems like a little better idea than simply hiding...especially if you wanted to prove your innocence...seems like he was fine with being considered guilty...probably because he was
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I don't necessarily buy the "official story' but I find it difficult to believe the assertion in the video. I just don't think that as many people as would be necessary and complicit in this type of government operation would be able to do so without the entire thing crumbling. Unfortunately not buying the crazy stories of US involvement to further some war agenda means to many that I am simply a stooge or blind or too stupid to read...
If bin Laden consistently claimed innocence there would be plenty of people around the world willing to believe his story...especially with evidence he would surely have in his possession of all of his dealings...seems like a little better idea than simply hiding...especially if you wanted to prove your innocence...seems like he was fine with being considered guilty...probably because he was
I don't necessarily buy the "conspiracy theories’ but I find it difficult to believe the official story. I just don't think anyone would be able to pull this off without some type of complicity from the government, otherwise the entire thing crumbles. Unfortunately not buying the crazy official story of 10 guys with box cutters to further some vague terrorist agenda means to many that I am simply a stooge or blind or too stupid to read...
If bin Laden truely claimed responsibility, there would be plenty of people around the world willing to believe his story...especially with evidence he would surely have in his possession of the attack...seems like a little better idea than simply hiding...especially if you wanted to prove your point...seems like he was fine with being considered guilty...probably because he partly was .....see what I'm saying?
but since I can barely read the KISS principle suits me just fine...but what does the word invoking mean? or entireor running? I am just a caveman, confused by your big words.
I don't necessarily buy the "official story' but I find it difficult to believe the assertion in the video. I just don't think that as many people as would be necessary and complicit in this type of government operation would be able to do so without the entire thing crumbling. Unfortunately not buying the crazy stories of US involvement to further some war agenda means to many that I am simply a stooge or blind or too stupid to read...
If bin Laden consistently claimed innocence there would be plenty of people around the world willing to believe his story...especially with evidence he would surely have in his possession of all of his dealings...seems like a little better idea than simply hiding...especially if you wanted to prove your innocence...seems like he was fine with being considered guilty...probably because he was
or because he wanted the US to bankrupt herself. According to the official story, he admitted it and wanted the US to spend a fortune looking for him and his cohorts... I dunno...not sure if you're thinking that I implied you were blind or stupid, or just continuing in your offense to HSS's comment....but I wasn't implying that, and the comprende was a total joke...I always enjoy reading posts from both you and HSS....
I didn't watch the video, and to be honest I don't even like talking about 9/11 anymore. My line of thinking is similar to yours but just on the other side of the unsure-fence....There are too many unanswered questions for the the official story to be true, nor for Ockham's razor to be invoked. There are so many questions/coincidences/inconsistencies about that day that cannot be explained with any of the flimsy official assertions....conversely, there are a lot of ridiculous stretches made on the conspiracy side of the ledger....so to suggest that the entire overarching plan can be explained simply (KISS or ockham's) is preposterous to me.
or because he wanted the US to bankrupt herself. According to the official story, he admitted it and wanted the US to spend a fortune looking for him and his cohorts... I dunno...not sure if you're thinking that I implied you were blind or stupid, or just continuing in your offense to HSS's comment....but I wasn't implying that, and the comprende was a total joke...I always enjoy reading posts from both you and HSS....
I didn't watch the video, and to be honest I don't even like talking about 9/11 anymore. My line of thinking is similar to yours but just on the other side of the unsure-fence....There are too many unanswered questions for the the official story to be true, nor for Ockham's razor to be invoked. There are so many questions/coincidences/inconsistencies about that day that cannot be explained with any of the flimsy official assertions....conversely, there are a lot of ridiculous stretches made on the conspiracy side of the ledger....so to suggest that the entire overarching plan can be explained simply (KISS or ockham's) is preposterous to me.
the video isn't really about the 9/11 conspiracy... it is about the U.S. using OBL as the "face of 9/11" when it is absolutely clear to everyone (outside the jingoists in the US) that OBL had little to no involvement in 9/11. The people (including myself in 2001) were instantly sold on going to war in order to rid the world of OBL and his cohorts, and when they had chances to take him out and end the war Bush refused (twice).
You're more likely to die of a lightning strike than to be killed by a terrorist, yet the fear mongerers have us up in arms at the tune of $400 - $500 billion per year to rid the world of a fairy tale.
that's the video's postulation and mine, too. I don't believe in the conspiracy theories that say the US was complicit in 9/11 because 1) it is too intricate and complex 2) I don't believe our government is that evil. I may disagree with most things and even think they are fear mongerers, but I don't think they are murderers in an explicit sense.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
Comments
No problem.
But just to clarify - as I see it, whether the killing was "justifed"/justifiable is pretty much dependent on the answer to the question I was asking. My strong suspicion is that it was not. But as we agree, none of us really know what happened, and they're not doing a good job of telling us.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... 74701e.111
Just imagine if that had been the case and they gave him the opportunity to detonate the bomb because they were trying to capture him even though he refused to surrender. I don't know how many SEALs were in the room at the time, but it's safe to say it was more than 1. So, yeah, bin Laden would still be dead but the mission couldn't really be considered a success. To al-Qadea, he would have not just died a martyr, he would have died a hero who won his battle with the American troops based on body count. In that way, his death would have actually strengthened al-Qaeda instead of weakening it.
Ok, fair enough, they did say it. Still, I think it's highly improbable that - unless he was aware there was going to be a raid - he would be wearing a vest. And if on entering the room, they could see that there were guns there, but he wasn't armed with them, it would be an obvious assumption that he was taken by surprise by the raid, and therefore almost certainly wouldn't be wearing a suicide vest.
An interesting point, considering that there are some who are saying that that is what actually happened:
Link: Joshua Holland: Did Osama bin Laden Win the “War on Terror”?http://www.guernicamag.com/blog/2644/joshua_holland_did_osama_bin_laden_win/
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
He's dead. The world is no less of a place without him. The only folks that will miss him are those that have been convinced that dying for your cause is a good thing. So, they are applauding us for granting him the very wish he asks of his followers. May he be enjoying his 72 vegans as we speak.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp ... 8#43009468
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OATF_BXEx8M
so who is all in on it?
that was not worth 15 minutes. just saying it doesn't make it true... I love revisionist history
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Godfather.
what do you mean? the CIA was "in on it" until August 2001, as a CIA operative met with OBL in Dubai that month. Bush was given the keys to take out OBL by the Taliban (twice), but refused. The FBI higher ups conspired to stop agents from working on islamic militants in the US in 1996, and only re-opened the case on 9/12/2001. There are a half-dozen other facts presented in the video that document either outright conspiracy or extreme ignorance.
The highest circles of American intelligence were friends with OBL until 9/11, then they used him as "the boogie man" immediately following 9/11 to begin the war(s) in the Middle East.
OBL was an evil man, and he is dead (although I don't believe he is in the Indian Ocean). The point here is that the US used OBL as a puppet of fear to wage war, when it is pretty clear that he had little to no involvement in 9/11.
what exactly is revisionist about the video?
http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/sto ... jlAuw.cspx
I hope he finds it.
Pakistani Intelligence Announces Its Full Cooperation With U.S. Forces During Upcoming Top Secret June 12 Drone Strike On Al-Qaeda At 5:23 A.M. Near Small Town Of Razmani In North Waziristan
ISLAMABAD—Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency restated Thursday its commitment to the fight against terrorism, pledging full cooperation with U.S. forces during the upcoming strike on an al-Qaeda safe house on June 12 at 5:23 a.m. near the small town of Razmani in the remote tribal region of North Waziristan.
At a hastily convened press conference, ISI chief Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha called Pakistan's long- standing partnership with the United States "stronger than ever," explaining that both countries share an interest in rooting out al-Qaeda before its leaders have time to gather their secret cache of hidden weapons and move to a new location, possibly a tribal area in northwest Pakistan where Pasha said U.S. intelligence is limited in both its sophistication and reach.
"Make no mistake, Pakistan stands shoulder to shoulder with our American allies in hunting down those who threaten our national security," said Pasha, circling the exact location of the safe house on a large satellite photo of the town. "And we will show no mercy in targeting them, whether it be on the battlefield or, perhaps, in a bunker where the walls are thicker and offer better protection from Predator drone attacks."
"These are highly dangerous men," he continued, "who will be taken out at 5:23 a.m. I repeat: The strike begins at 5:23 a.m."
Pasha emphasized the ISI's extensive integration with U.S. forces in planning the attack, saying that the specific time was agreed upon to ensure the terrorists wouldn't try to escape across the porous Afghan border, which he noted is often poorly guarded—especially near the town of Shirhani—at that hour of the morning.
Pasha added that the drones would be coming from the west, targeting the main part of the compound where al-Qaeda operatives would likely be sleeping and not loading all laptops, assault rifles, sensitive documents detailing plans for future attacks, and shoulder-to-air missile launchers into pickup trucks and fleeing as quickly as possible.
"Throughout the mission, we will be in constant contact with American commanders, providing up-to-the minute intelligence assessments and information on enemy movements," Pasha said. "As the strike unfolds, real-time updates will be transmitted to them via UHF frequency 11.2535."
Added Pasha, "We've also changed the code words we use with the Americans, which is vital to our overall communications strategy."
.....
http://www.theonion.com/articles/pakistani-intelligence-announces-its-full-cooperat,20681/?utm_source=recentnews
That was my tactical decision.
Did you even read it? There is a chance the body could be recovered.
taking peoples opinions and making them seem like some undiscovered bit of evidence and fact...is quite revisionist...looking at the list of people who were flown out of the country as some sort of expose when in reality it was probably a safety measure...as some sort of smoking gun...
making claims that cia operatives met with bin laden in august...without a shred of actual evidence besides one news reporters claim...simply saying they saw him there and that he boasted about it...the best part is that in the quote about the meeting it says alleged but the guy speaks it as TRUTH....that is the problem I have with it and the credibility of his claims...people have seen elvis too...these kinds of here say things would be MASSIVE STORIES if they were actually true...do you think the press in the US would protect Bush or anyone in his administration?...lol..you have got to be kidding...Clinton could have taken him out too...is he in on it?
Seriously...I don't want to get into it with you because if you want to believe the US government attacked itself to pass the patriot act or whatever the hell other reasons there were to go to war in the mind of the conspiracist I cannot change that for you...it isn't my job to change it...you can think whatever you want...I was just telling you my opinion on whether or not it was worth 15 minutes...it wasn't. these are the same baseless half truths that have been made hundreds of times before...what was new in this video? that wasn't known before?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
1) It took the French two years to find the black box from the flight that crashed off the coast of Brazil into the Atlantic ... and that was a device that was built so it could be found easily and they knew the general area in which the debris was scattered.
2) Bin Laden is just as likely to be in Area 51 or met his demise in a crematorium then resting in Bikini Bottom.
This guy says he has investors helping fund his expedition but "victims" is probably what they really are. I smell a con.
it isn't discomforting...and there was no need to attack my reading comprehension...I can read and comprehend just fine thank you and have read about this and many other conspiracies...the main goal is usually the same .... make the US look like it attacked itself to start some sort of war for oil...and if you believe in the form of the conspiracy presented in this great 15 minute video than the next conclusion is the US did it to itself is it not?
You didn't expressly say that is what you thought, but the implication in this video and others like it is that the US was complicit...
the facts are certainly there...to be manipulated anyway conspiracists see fit...if bin Laden was not guilty...why wouldn't he run to a place like Iran or China or N Korea for protection and tell the whole world his crazy story of deep involvement in the CIA? ...the KISS principle still applies to things like this even though they are on an international espionage like level...
but you are right...it must be because I cannot read or comprehend words...its a good thing I have someone here to type for me otherwise I probably couldn't even communicate...but I shouldn't take your backhanded comments too seriously anyway...you were the one who called me a liberal and told me how much I love government...but I should stop now because I don't want to lock the thread for everyone else
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Didn't OBL say that his entire plan was to bankrupt the US via the war on terror? Running to China or Iran would have screwed that all up. Besides....do you honestly think anyone would believe an OBL statement released via the Iranian government? It would be completely discredited in every mainstream story about it...
According to the official story (which you seem to buy into), he wanted to be hunted....
but since I can barely read the KISS principle suits me just fine...but what does the word invoking mean? or entireor running? I am just a caveman, confused by your big words.
I don't necessarily buy the "official story' but I find it difficult to believe the assertion in the video. I just don't think that as many people as would be necessary and complicit in this type of government operation would be able to do so without the entire thing crumbling. Unfortunately not buying the crazy stories of US involvement to further some war agenda means to many that I am simply a stooge or blind or too stupid to read...
If bin Laden consistently claimed innocence there would be plenty of people around the world willing to believe his story...especially with evidence he would surely have in his possession of all of his dealings...seems like a little better idea than simply hiding...especially if you wanted to prove your innocence...seems like he was fine with being considered guilty...probably because he was
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I don't necessarily buy the "conspiracy theories’ but I find it difficult to believe the official story. I just don't think anyone would be able to pull this off without some type of complicity from the government, otherwise the entire thing crumbles. Unfortunately not buying the crazy official story of 10 guys with box cutters to further some vague terrorist agenda means to many that I am simply a stooge or blind or too stupid to read...
If bin Laden truely claimed responsibility, there would be plenty of people around the world willing to believe his story...especially with evidence he would surely have in his possession of the attack...seems like a little better idea than simply hiding...especially if you wanted to prove your point...seems like he was fine with being considered guilty...probably because he partly was
I didn't watch the video, and to be honest I don't even like talking about 9/11 anymore. My line of thinking is similar to yours but just on the other side of the unsure-fence....There are too many unanswered questions for the the official story to be true, nor for Ockham's razor to be invoked. There are so many questions/coincidences/inconsistencies about that day that cannot be explained with any of the flimsy official assertions....conversely, there are a lot of ridiculous stretches made on the conspiracy side of the ledger....so to suggest that the entire overarching plan can be explained simply (KISS or ockham's) is preposterous to me.
Yeah!
the video isn't really about the 9/11 conspiracy... it is about the U.S. using OBL as the "face of 9/11" when it is absolutely clear to everyone (outside the jingoists in the US) that OBL had little to no involvement in 9/11. The people (including myself in 2001) were instantly sold on going to war in order to rid the world of OBL and his cohorts, and when they had chances to take him out and end the war Bush refused (twice).
You're more likely to die of a lightning strike than to be killed by a terrorist, yet the fear mongerers have us up in arms at the tune of $400 - $500 billion per year to rid the world of a fairy tale.
that's the video's postulation and mine, too. I don't believe in the conspiracy theories that say the US was complicit in 9/11 because 1) it is too intricate and complex 2) I don't believe our government is that evil. I may disagree with most things and even think they are fear mongerers, but I don't think they are murderers in an explicit sense.