BIN LADEN IS DEAD

Jason P

MrAbraham wrote:

Jason P wrote:

MrAbraham wrote:

The war in Afghanistan is more than just about 'Terror',

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world ... erals.html

The supposed fortune in minerals is a pipe dream. No one is going to devote the resources necessary or invest the money that is required to tap into those resources, especially considering how volatile the area is (and will be for quite some time).

Since when does a volatile area stop the US from conducting business with/in or around an area or place?

The article itself mentions that there is absolutely no mining infrastructure and that it would take decades to develop it. Who makes that investment in a volatile land-locked country that is surrounded by China, Pakistan, and Iran?

Godfather.

I've watched the old footage on t.v. after hitler was defeted and there were ticker tape parades and partying in the streets and same when japan surendered and now that bin laden is dead you guys critize others for celebrating this moment in history, who are you to judge anybody for showing emotions during this event ?
I got news for ya, we(here on the train) are no different and no better than any of those people celebrating,chanting or lifting their shirts and if you really believe you are in some way better then them your sadly mistaken, we all make it through this life the best we can than we leave this world.
don't waste your time judging someone else for showing how they fell especially if you haven't shared their experiances.

Godfather.

gimmesometruth27

i wonder if hacksaw jim duggan was out in the streets. the people i saw on tv cheering and chanting reminded me of him, minus the 2x4 of course...




i dunno, maybe it was the american dream dusty rhodes....one of the two...

JonnyPistachio

EdsonNascimento wrote:

First - that is a great quote by MLK, but I'm pretty sure what he's referring to there has nothing to do with the likes of Osama and Hitler (who BTW, had their deaths reported on the same day - May 1 - 2011 by USA and 1945 by Germany, respectively - weird). Now, I think he'd be on the side not kill. But, I also think he'd side with the SEALs when he heard fire fight and trusted their well trained judgment. Don't take a quote out of its context and think the speaker would apply it everywhere. MLK was a brilliant man. And while he would never have advocated killing, he certainly wouldn't be pontificating against THIS mission. This would not make him hypocritical. It would make him a critical thinker (which he was).

A better quote for this situation, which I think MLK might agree with is from the great Mark Twain -

“I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.”

I'm not presuming to know what/how someone as great as MLK would react to this news. So, please don't read into it this way (though, I do see how you would). My only point is - you shouldn't presume to know how he would react to this extremely unique situation either.

good post man, I agree. I doubt MLKs quote encompasses a terrorist that had a hand in killing over 3,000 people in one day and how the US govt dealt with him over the weekend. There are probably a million quotes that could be thrown into this thing and would be taken out of context.

EdsonNascimento

I'm not big on the celebrations. Not against them either. Let folks do what they feel. That's what we're about. But, one thing that struck me is everyone I saw celebrating was chanting USA, holding American flags, saying the pledge and singing the National Anthem. Whereas, in other countries the celebrations that folks have referenced is about burning the American flag, and nothing about their own nationalism.

So, the US celebrations are different. They are actual celebrations. Whereas other countries (blanket statement, I'm sure there are exceptions) are about hatred. Places like the UK, Canada, Israel would celebrate similar to how the US does. While others don't. There's something interesting about that.

So, what's wrong with showing a little patriotism now and then? Just like you can come on boards like this and express your views openly, those folks should be able to dance and sing their country's praise freely and openly. You should feel lucky, as many of the folks you think we're oppressing don't have that opportunity from their own government.

And to those that say we created this and such - that is such liberal, self loathing bull. That's like saying the bullied created the bully. I'm not saying we don't have our mis-steps. When you are looked to for everything both positively and negatively, you are bound to be imperfect. But, on the whole, I think the US and its true allies make the best of what is given to them. It tears at our very heart that we cannot help everyone that needs it. Yes, we pick spots where it ALSO serves us. But, we also do a ton for folks for no reason at all other than the good of man (Haiti, "Tear Down That Wall!"). Quite frankly, I wish sometimes our focus would be more on our own needy rather than being the World's cry towel. Because unfortunately, all too often the ones we help wind up being our biggest critics.

Thank you is the proper response.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

cincybearcat wrote:

Digital Twilight wrote:

I think it's more to do with the manner in which it was 'celebrated'. What should have been a sombre rememberence of all people who died and suffered under this man's terror and his legacy looked more like spring break then anything else.

I tend to agree with you here. But then, who are we to decide how others get to show their emotion in this case? Not to mention, I think the majority of people didn't celebrate in a poor manner. I just think we always talk about the 10%.

The way I look at it???

I agree 100% with what you had to say yesterday. The people celebrating at the White House? The people cheering in the streets? I am pretty sure a majority of them were a bunch of ding-a-lings who were just looking to drink there booze, act silly, and parade around the streets doing just that. Bin Ladens death gave them an excuse and the oppurtunity to do just that. The people of New York suffered tremendously on 9-11. Many people lost friends and family. They want to celebrate and cheer Bin Ladens death? Like you said earlier, "Who are we to judge how others show their emotion"?
As far as the rest of the world judging us "Stupid Americans' ? LIke you said, are we talking about 10% of the nation that went to the streets and celebrated? It is probably more like 1%. So if the rest of the world wants to judge us Americans, based on the actions of 1% of the nation? Then let them judge away. It really doesn't bother me in the least. Do I judge all of Europe, by how their Hooligans act at any given soccer match? Do I judge all of the Muslim world by the actions of Bin Laden? Do I judge all of the Muslim World Because thousands of them paraded around and celebrated when those 2 towers went down on 9-11? No I do not! Why? Because I am smarter than that.

Godfather.

EdsonNascimento wrote:

I'm not big on the celebrations. Not against them either. Let folks do what they feel. That's what we're about. But, one thing that struck me is everyone I saw celebrating was chanting USA, holding American flags, saying the pledge and singing the National Anthem. Whereas, in other countries the celebrations that folks have referenced is about burning the American flag, and nothing about their own nationalism.

So, the US celebrations are different. They are actual celebrations. Whereas other countries (blanket statement, I'm sure there are exceptions) are about hatred. Places like the UK, Canada, Israel would celebrate similar to how the US does. While others don't. There's something interesting about that.

So, what's wrong with showing a little patriotism now and then? Just like you can come on boards like this and express your views openly, those folks should be able to dance and sing their country's praise freely and openly. You should feel lucky, as many of the folks you think we're oppressing don't have that opportunity from their own government.

And to those that say we created this and such - that is such liberal, self loathing bull. That's like saying the bullied created the bully. I'm not saying we don't have our mis-steps. When you are looked to for everything both positively and negatively, you are bound to be imperfect. But, on the whole, I think the US and its true allies make the best of what is given to them. It tears at our very heart that we cannot help everyone that needs it. Yes, we pick spots where it ALSO serves us. But, we also do a ton for folks for no reason at all other than the good of man (Haiti, "Tear Down That Wall!"). Quite frankly, I wish sometimes our focus would be more on our own needy rather than being the World's cry towel. Because unfortunately, all too often the ones we help wind up being our biggest critics.

Thank you is the proper response.

Thank You !

Godfather.

facepollution

Godfather. wrote:

I've watched the old footage on t.v. after hitler was defeted and there were ticker tape parades and partying in the streets and same when japan surendered and now that bin laden is dead you guys critize others for celebrating this moment in history, who are you to judge anybody for showing emotions during this event ?
I got news for ya, we(here on the train) are no different and no better than any of those people celebrating,chanting or lifting their shirts and if you really believe you are in some way better then them your sadly mistaken, we all make it through this life the best we can than we leave this world.
don't waste your time judging someone else for showing how they fell especially if you haven't shared their experiances.

Godfather.

Hitler's defeat and Japan's surrender were pivotal moments that ended the war, this situation is much more complex - the war on 'terror' is far from over, so the celebrations are premature. Does anyone really feel any safer now bin Laden is gone?

polaris_x

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism

gimmesometruth27

facepollution wrote:

Hitler's defeat and Japan's surrender were pivotal moments that ended the war, this situation is much more complex - the war on 'terror' is far from over, so the celebrations are premature. Does anyone really feel any safer now bin Laden is gone?

this is a good post. i was just typing essentially what you just said. this is essentially what we did in iraq, deposed hussein and we are still there fighting now many years later? bin laden is gone, yet those he inspired are not giving up. celebrations are premature, especially when the fight goes on.

Jason P

polaris_x wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism

Jingoism "refers to excessive bias in judging one's own country as superior to others – an extreme type of nationalism."

I wonder what the term is for an excessive bias in judging a different country's population in that all the citizens think they are superior to others?

gimmesometruth27

polaris_x wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism

jingoism. pretty much sums it up.

someone i used to know used to joke that americans invented 2 things, patriotism, and size 4XL shorts. usa usa. lol...

all kidding aside though. bin laden has been gone just less than 48 hours, and the government has not said "THAT"S IT! we got all of them, everybody loves us again, hoorayyyy!"

unfortunately i don't think that is going to happen anytime soon though.

JonnyPistachio

SatansFuton wrote:

afarid wrote:

Everybody is talking about justice being done with osama's death. Justice for who? The people who lost their lives on 9/11. I really don't think so because terrorism still exists.

I hear what you are saying, although I don't agree with a lot of what you said, but there seems to be a bit of miscommunication going on with the Justice issue. When people are saying Justice, they don't mean that terrorism is forever over, or that the dead of 9/11 are smiling down from wherever. It's not so broad as that. It is simply that the guy committed a crime, and he paid for it. Justice. Think of it on a smaller scale. Guy commits murder, and gets brought to justice. Did it end murder forever? Will there never be another murder? Of course there will be, that's not the point. The point is THAT guy won't murder again, and those who were wronged (not the actual victims of course, they're dead after all, but families, etc) often feel a sense of closure with that. There are plenty of people who feel a sense of closure or justice with the death of bin Laden, and nobody is going to change their mind on that, nor should anybody really be trying to.

Personally I didn't lose anybody in 9/11 or even know anybody who was lost, so I don't feel any personal justice. But as an American I felt like Osama should pay for his crime, and he has made it clear he would never be taken alive, so I knew it would probably mean his death. Nobody is under the impression that the world is all unicorns and roses now that he is dead.

I think this is a great post Futon.
They had a choice to take him out. I'd like to know from the people who don't think this is a big deal -- Should they have let him go? or should they have stopped pursuing him years ago? I honestly don't know.. was bin laden even able to stay active in al quada over the last few years? was he significant at this point in 2011? I don't know, but I feel the world is a better place without him.

and yeah afarid, OF COURSE terrorism still exists, and it always will. But does that mean we give up and let bin laden go? we have to fight it to some degree.

Godfather.

facepollution wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

I've watched the old footage on t.v. after hitler was defeted and there were ticker tape parades and partying in the streets and same when japan surendered and now that bin laden is dead you guys critize others for celebrating this moment in history, who are you to judge anybody for showing emotions during this event ?
I got news for ya, we(here on the train) are no different and no better than any of those people celebrating,chanting or lifting their shirts and if you really believe you are in some way better then them your sadly mistaken, we all make it through this life the best we can than we leave this world.
don't waste your time judging someone else for showing how they fell especially if you haven't shared their experiances.

Godfather.

Hitler's defeat and Japan's surrender were pivotal moments that ended the war, this situation is much more complex - the war on 'terror' is far from over, so the celebrations are premature. Does anyone really feel any safer now bin Laden is gone?

I believe a lot people do, I think they see it as beggining to some normalcie,I think a lot of those people we saw on t.v. felt so much anger and hurt for 10 years and now have a reason give up a little of that anger and make dealing with the pain a little easier,
all of us that did not live in NY or DC during that time could never understand the fear, sense of loss and anger
that those people experianced so to point a finger at them and tell them how wrong they are is just crazy talk.

Godfather.

zarocat

Jason P wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism

Jingoism "refers to excessive bias in judging one's own country as superior to others – an extreme type of nationalism."

I wonder what the term is for an excessive bias in judging a different country's population in that all the citizens think they are superior to others?

The term would be the time period in where the superior people had access to more in their country than the people of the country they feel superior over and the agreement of give and take ... what do you think ?

Jason P

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

facepollution wrote:

Hitler's defeat and Japan's surrender were pivotal moments that ended the war, this situation is much more complex - the war on 'terror' is far from over, so the celebrations are premature. Does anyone really feel any safer now bin Laden is gone?

this is a good post. i was just typing essentially what you just said. this is essentially what we did in iraq, deposed hussein and we are still there fighting now many years later? bin laden is gone, yet those he inspired are not giving up. celebrations are premature, especially when the fight goes on.

So if Hitler escaped and was found 10 years later in Argentina there would not have been a celebration around the world?

Second, did I miss all the ticker-tape parades and mass gatherings to celebrate the death of Bin Laden? Besides news reports in D.C., New York and a few ball games, did anyone posting on this board visually witness the nationwide celebration in the streets?

Godfather.

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism

jingoism. pretty much sums it up.

someone i used to know used to joke that americans invented 2 things, patriotism, and size 4XL shorts. usa usa. lol...

all kidding aside though. bin laden has been gone just less than 48 hours, and the government has not said "THAT"S IT! we got all of them, everybody loves us again, hoorayyyy!"

unfortunately i don't think that is going to happen anytime soon though.

it never will, they line up and say help us then curse us for doing it...crazy.


Godfather.

wolfamongwolves

Godfather. wrote:

I've watched the old footage on t.v. after hitler was defeted and there were ticker tape parades and partying in the streets and same when japan surendered and now that bin laden is dead you guys critize others for celebrating this moment in history

Celebrating the end of a war or military campaign is a very different thing to revelling in vengeance.

I can understand emotions of relief or vindication in a sense of justice being served (though in my opinion justice is infinitely better served in a court of law than in a gunfight). What I can't understand or condone is glee in bloodlust and nationalistic triumphalism. It's ugly and demeaning.

cincybearcat

polaris_x wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pu ... &sa=Search

Huh, no term for that. perhaps...Polarism?

Jason P

zarocat wrote:

Jason P wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism

Jingoism "refers to excessive bias in judging one's own country as superior to others – an extreme type of nationalism."

I wonder what the term is for an excessive bias in judging a different country's population in that all the citizens think they are superior to others?

The term would be the time period in where the superior people had access to more in their country than the people of the country they feel superior over and the agreement of give and take ... what do you think ?

I think ... that that the superior people .. wait, uh ... damn, I'm now confused. On to other debates