Education Cuts

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lukin2006 wrote:

Actually I am there at night and they would have to sign in if they were to come in on the weekends, other than the one's who are coaching sports and it's a select few, they are gone by 2:30. The one's who sign in on the weekend is usually the Principle and custodians. I can only speak from personal experience, but from the most part teachers in Ontario have it pretty good, not to mention they are refereed to having one of the best pensions in the world, maybe only Canadian politicians have better.

As for the time off thats how much they get.

They are a very me oriented group...because of the recession and the Ontario deficit the provincial government has approached them about a wage freeze when their current contract expires, we'll see how that plays out, a few I spoke to are not happy about it, so we'll see how it plays out.

The underlined part of your post is the most import important point in this thread. It's a tragedy & a logical fallacy that some people will use their or your personal experience to generalize an entire profession, to think they actually know about the circumstances of others when they couldn't possibly have a clue. Unfortunately, that's the kind of "logic" we see too often on this board & in this world - and I'd say it's one of the major reasons the world is as fucked up as it is.

lukin2006

_ wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

Actually I am there at night and they would have to sign in if they were to come in on the weekends, other than the one's who are coaching sports and it's a select few, they are gone by 2:30. The one's who sign in on the weekend is usually the Principle and custodians. I can only speak from personal experience, but from the most part teachers in Ontario have it pretty good, not to mention they are refereed to having one of the best pensions in the world, maybe only Canadian politicians have better.

As for the time off thats how much they get.

They are a very me oriented group...because of the recession and the Ontario deficit the provincial government has approached them about a wage freeze when their current contract expires, we'll see how that plays out, a few I spoke to are not happy about it, so we'll see how it plays out.

The underlined part of your post is the most import important point in this thread. It's a tragedy & a logical fallacy that some people will use their or your personal experience to generalize an entire profession, to think they actually know about the circumstances of others when they couldn't possibly have a clue. Unfortunately, that's the kind of "logic" we see too often on this board & in this world - and I'd say it's one of the major reasons the world is as fucked up as it is.

It's pretty much the same in all of Ontario...sorry if you are offended. But here in Ontario it's pretty good job, good pay, good benefits, good benefits with far more time off than the average person.

I was not commenting about your personal situation.

I'm sure there are some places in the states that pay school teachers well...

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lukin2006 wrote:

It's pretty much the same in all of Ontario...sorry if you are offended. But here in Ontario it's pretty good job, good pay, good benefits, good benefits with far more time off than the average person.

I was not commenting about your personal situation.

I'm sure there are some places in the states that pay school teachers well...

I know you weren't commenting on my personal situation and I appreciate that. If you say teachers are generally paid well in Ontario, I'll have to believe you since I don't have any personal experience with teacher salaries in Ontario - just like others will have to believe my personal experience. By the same logic, I still don't think you can know about how all Ontario teachers spend their time or whether they care about the kids based just on your personal experience with some of them. I'm sure there are probably at least a couple of states in this country that pay teachers well, but I've never lived in any of them.

lukin2006

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lukin2006 wrote:

It's pretty much the same in all of Ontario...sorry if you are offended. But here in Ontario it's pretty good job, good pay, good benefits, good benefits with far more time off than the average person.

I was not commenting about your personal situation.

I'm sure there are some places in the states that pay school teachers well...

I know you weren't commenting on my personal situation and I appreciate that. If you say teachers are generally paid well in Ontario, I'll have to believe you since I don't have any personal experience with teacher salaries in Ontario - just like others will have to believe my personal experience. By the same logic, I still don't think you can know about how all Ontario teachers spend their time or whether they care about the kids based just on your personal experience with some of them. I'm sure there are probably at least a couple of states in this country that pay teachers well, but I've never lived in any of them.

I don't believe I said they don't care about kids, I said kids come second. I just dare any government to try and pass essential service legislation and take away their right to strike, just try it, and as far as I'm concerned it is an essential service. You are right I can't say for sure how many teachers volunteer their time after school, school is from 8 - 2:15 everyday, without their prep and lunch that is a 6:15 minute day, so if they volunteer doing 1:45 extra curricular activities a day they are still only at an 8 hour day.

Now how many people work 40+ hours per week and still volunteer at something and they doing because it makes them feel good. Sorry here in Ontario, teachers do not get my sympathy, and theirs unions are something else.

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I Googled teacher salaries & found varied accounts of what teachers in the U.S. make. Though many of the salaries are low, many people commented that they are actually even lower than listed because administrator salaries are usually factored in to "average teacher salaries". I didn't find anything that said even the states with the best salaries have average salaries of even $60,000, much less $80,000.

Regardless, here are some of the comments I read in various places:

" My wife live and teach in Hawaii, which ranks all the way at the bottom in the pathetic 50th slot. That's why there's a teacher shortage here - it's so expensive that teachers just can't make it. The teachers that thrive here over time are locals who have inherited home equity and so don't have to worry about buying a home, and teachers who marry doctors, lawyers, etc. The general pattern is for recent college grads eager to try life in Paradise, who stay a couple of years but quickly figure out it's not worth it in the long-term."

"Unfortunately, many states start their teachers out well below what is listed here as "starting salary." Texas is one of those states. Our 2008-2009 starting salary is $27,000. I understand that's minimum, but most of our teachers actually do start at that."

"I am proud to say that I taught in two different states NY ( the city) and for 20 Yrs in MD a total of 30 yrs not counting two years of college teaching. Teaching , in and of itself, is a joyful and rewarding experience. You have to love kids and love your teaching area of expertise. When I retired 3 yrs ago I was called "teacher coordinator/ dept chair.... The administration weighed heavily on demanding too much in too little time. I was called at night, I was pulled from my class room to cover for an absent teacher, I was forced to prepare lessons for absentee teachers, I was forced to coach inept teachers that the system was not or had not dismiissed for incompetence.... I would recommend that anyone walk in a teacher's shoes for a few years before commenting on how we complain. It is an arduous job and it is only through loving children and wanting to bring about knowledge and helping others to become mindful adults that we do this job. For all those who are professionals .ask yourself,"where would I be without a teacher/".... School years have been extended, workshops and extra training is essential and when teachers leave the school house there work is never over. Their evenings are nights of correcting papers,, lesson planning and bearing up for one more day which can be hell. Respect and appreciate those who teach as it is a profession laden with love and dedication."

"Now I am teaching art and gifted art. I am not even teaching an academic, and I spend 2-4 hours everyday working at home, and another 4-8 hours every weekend, grading and preparing curriculum. After figuring my actual working hours, I am only making $12.35 per hour."

"Deliver me from the ignorant masses who think that teachers work "180 days" a year. And of course, we only work 71/2 hours a day. BULL. I teach kindergarten, and I love it, or I would not be doing it. It is work. It is consuming if you do it right, If it were only about teaching, that would be a piece of cake, sure. But it's not. It's about making sure the principle is satisfied with my work; meeting the demands of all the new programs the county thinks are the next great thing; catering to parents who think their child is the only one I have in my classroom and he/she is a perfect genius. It's also about finding time to teach 24-5 year olds how to read and write, do math, and understand science and social studies with minimal assistance while differentiating for multi-leveled learners AND assessing all these students individually in all the above mentioned areas. Oh, yea, those benefits. Yea, they're great. But if i have to take one of those "Paid' sick days, I have - while sick - to make plans for the one who will take care of my class while I'm gone, making sure they have everything they need to take care of those 24-5 year olds for the day and get them home safely. I can't just say, "put it on my desk, and I'll see about it tomorrow.""

"I'm a young teacher. I've had many jobs in my life before teaching. This is the HARDEST think I have EVER done. I'm 10 times more stressed than my friends who aren't teachers. Sure I HAVE to be at school from 7:02-2:20 but rarely do I leave before 5. Do I get compensated for that time? No. Do I still take home work? Yes. Do I eat, sleep, and breathe teaching? YES. Do I absolutely love it? YES! Why? I have no idea, I just do. Any one who says teachers have it easy, have no idea what goes on in schools today. They have no clue what a teacher has to put up with - complete lack of respect, apathetic students, new curriculum/programs yearly ... insanity is what we do. Teachers are the most important people. Without them, you don't have anyone else."

"Teachers are given the responsibility to guide our youth morally, ethically, politically, athletically, etc., etc."

"i dont know what planet some of you people are from ; but the kids i teach in an inner city school daily come with guns and drugs, if I were to be paid accordingly for working seven days a week, I would be receiving a doctors salary. I've been teaching long enough that my salary has dropped each year. Haven't seen a raise in 4yrs. My state is one of the lowest paid. To the lawyer obvisously you haven't had to deal with chronic behaviors in the classroom and out of control parents who send notes wtih their children asking you to buy shoes and coats and get mad when you dont do it. I work in a distrist that claims its broke, but surrounding districts in the same state are paying more. To the person thinking about going into teaching; your'e better off where you at if you plan on continuing to put food on the table, our salaries are so low, I qualify for food stamps, and before someone says it , this is my last year teaching, I cannot continue to live off this salary while welfare people around me are better off and they dont have to leave the house . For the folks that say they went into teaching for the kids, then why are you accepting a salary, you must have a second source to pay your bills."

"Teaching is a demanding job that includes coming early, staying late, neglecting you family sometimes (even your own children), getting little sleep, continuous education, using a lot of your money for your classroom. I teach in an urban school district with low income children and I have to say the job is very demanding. Before my students need a teacher, many times they need a mom, a nurse, a counselor. Teachers also have a lot of adminstrative duties. For example, I have to take attendance in 3 different places everyday (online, in a book and one sent to the office.) Also many districts play with teacher pay. My district just keep a two pay check this year, put in escrow and said that we'll get this check when we leave the system. Then they paid us with the deferred summer pay they deduct from our checks, making our summer check significantly smaller."

"I know very few teachers who only work 180 days a year...to being with, contracts include required inservice days (at least in Texas) and "duties assigned" which very often require weekends and holidays (at least they do in my rural school). Don't get me wrong - I love what I do. I have over 25 years in and am not nearly ready to retire. However, "sick leave" in my district is 5 days a year - it took 3 to bury my father who died on Labor Day this year. When I go to my son's wedding next week, out of town and requires that I miss another 3 days - I'll be docked a day's pay for that. And there will be no substitute hired while I'm out - other teachers will have to watch my students during their planning periods. With so little time available to be sick (or for family emergencies), accumulating time is nearly impossible. Because special ed students are now mainstreamed in science, I have classes where the IQ ranges from 85 to 120 - no aides, all modifications left to me - no one has yet to tell me how to teach physics to someone who can't read or do math. My summers are spent at part-time jobs closing the gap....still making less than $55K a year and that includes the part-time stuff. Would I do anything else for a living - like practice law? No thanks. I'd prefer to think I can still fix things and make lives better through my efforts. And, by the way, I have a doctorate, so don't suggest that graduate work would make a tremendous difference - it does, I'll likely never be out of debt."

"Most new teachers still have to get another job during the summer just to make ends meet. And many I know are working evening jobs during the school year just to get by because what they make during the day doesn't pay the bills. Forget trying to raise a family, buy a house, or have a comfortable retirement. That will never happen unless you are single with no student loan debt, or married to someone who makes a ton more money than you do."

"I find it is extremely difficult to compare teaching with other professions. I have found one example I like to use. Many people working in the private sector will ocassionally be required to present and idea to a group or to give an informational speech about something. I watch them prepare for hours, sometimes days to make sure their presentation will get the point across. As a teacher in a small district, I teach five different high school math courses, each requiriing a daily presentation. If I were allowed the same amount of time to prepare as these private sector critics, I'm sure my 180 measley days would turn into well over 500 days per year! for the lawyer working hard for a client, I see about 100 different clients every day with an equally life changing experience on the line. If anyone else thinks my job is easy - go get your secondary education degree, and your math degree - in Wisconsin you need both - and come to my class prepared to teach AP Calc AB, AP Calc BC, Pre-Calc, Algebra 2 and Algebra 1 every day with an hour and a half to prepare for all of them as well as grade all 100 assignments every day..."

" I am also a west virginia teacher with a masters plus 30 and fifteen years experience. I have also had cancer, and our health insurance did not cover anything. So with a salary of less than 40k in the part of the state that is the bedroom community for DC with DC cost of living, a retirement plan that was stolen by our governor - I too have to have a part time job. In fact on average at my school 75% of the teachers have second part-time jobs. So for those of you who think that all teachers have great health insurance, retirement packages, and loads of time off - think again. Not every state is the sameand the starting salary/average salary on this scale is not accurate. My state's starting salary is much lower. What I would like to see is the average net pay. My NET pay after taxes, health Insurance, etc (not including my personal IRA) is only 21,000."

"I have been teaching for 16 years and started at the age of 36. I absolutely love my job and my kids. (middle school) My kids love and respect me, BUT then you have the parents. Yes, I get along with most of my parents, but honey you don't have a clue what you will run into. This is something they do not teach you in school! Regarding teaching salaries--My salary started right around $19,000 I am now making 44,500, but I have completed my Master's since I started. I teach in Illinois and the average salary is misleading.... Believe me, I am teaching two college night classes and work on Saturday nights at a store for extra money! I want to be paid what I am worth."

"I currently teach public elementary school. The thing I love about my job today is the same thing I loved about my job 20 years ago--the children. My salary has moved from 23k to 49k. However, my job has changed description has changed greatly. I am no longer just a teacher. I am mother,father, social worker, nurse, lawyer, technology guru, court reporter, data doctor, production planner and production supervisor.... Getting back to my teacher salary--49k sounds pretty decent right? Lets give it a closer look. $900 a month goes to my family medical and dental insurance. We can't get cheaper insurance rates because the group we are with consistes primarily of women of child-bearing age.... I pay about $70 in NEA dues to keep bus chasing parents from trying to sue me for pulling their child off another child in a fight. Now because of budget cuts, my school system is looking into furloughing to save money.... Before anyone goes into teaching, they have to ask themselves if teaching is a career they can afford to have. Most teachers have to find some sort of side work to supplement their income--whether tutoring, selling jewelry and candles, working at the mall, waitressing, etc."

"Sure the average pay is that high…but that is including the pay of supervisors and principles that never even teach a student. The average pay for a teacher with a B.S. degree in Mississippi? Just over 20k, yet their average supervisor pay? Near 40-50k. Its all a cleverly designed myth to avoid having tax payers ask for more money in education."

"Don’t know where this data came from but I would love to be making 34K like in South Dakota! I teach high school in Louisiana and I make — hope you are sitting down— $26,500 per year! Unbelieveable isn’t it!"

"I teach and reside in Boise, Idaho. I have a BA in Marketing and teaching certificate with 20 extra Early Childhood components, but am most certainly NOT making this “AVERAGE” teaching salary amount that’s posted!... I make $31,000 a year. Not bad, but I’m a single mother and have almost $1,000 out of my check each month….needless to say I work for benefits and also have a second job at night. This week alone I pawn my daughter off three nights in a row right after school to cocktail and serve. Hit the bed around 12:30 and rise at 5:30 to do it all over again! Mind you, I did not start at this pay. It was $26,000 and I’ve had to take extra classes for credit (that I paid for to move over on the pay scale to get more each month.)"

"Each morning when my class enters my room, I am not only responsible to “educate” them by the state standards and curriculum, I have now become a body guard, nurse, doctor, therapist, life skills and manners coach and in some cases a step-parent. Firedrills, lock-downs, evacuations, epi pens, cpr, crisis team are also part of our trainings. (Billy: not real name) One May morning I was met at the office by a Billy’s new Foster parent and Health and Welfare. Billy had finally returned to school after an episode the week before of “chicken pox”. Billy really returned after his father was arrested for beating Billy so badly with a belt on his back and buttocks he couldn’t move. He was not sent to school for fear WE would find out. Well, someone had previously. How long had Billy been living this way and hiding it? It wasn’t in his writings. Billy wasn’t at his grade level academically, but he knew he was in a safe haven, consistent accountability, warm meals, hugs and laughter. Do you honestly think Billy cared at all what he got on that test that day? Speaking of NCLB?!!! Billy knew he would be sent home again at the end of the day! Billy was seven years old!! Unfortunately, Ryan, your comment about summers and Holidays off are part of why teachers do get such a bad wrap. Those are fighting words for me when people comment on that. I am a single parent of two! I work another job because my salary doesn’t cut it. I work on Holidays and all summer long. Along with paying for and educating myself more by taking classes to move over on the payscale of my career! I also don’t have aids to help in the room and take my work home constantly. Bottom line…it’s absolutely disheartening that we value our educator’s so little when in fact they are helping form little minds to be that surgeon or pilot for your family someday!"

" live in California in the S.F. Bay Area. I make 78000 a year. I work 188 days (paid anyway). I’m in my twelfth year. Sounds good?? It costs an average of $600000 to buy a cracker box, 3 bedroom, 2 bath home with 1100 square feet. 78000 doesn’t go very far when you have a $3200 house payment. It’s all relative to the cost-of-living."

"I worked for 30 years as a high school special education teacher, have a BA and a MS. My last year I just broke the $50000 mark(gross not net).For much of the first 10 years I was eligible for food stamps (family of five) and other programs for those below certain income criteria. I loved the challenge of the job, loved making a difference and enjoyed the school atmosphere. Always worked summer jobs to get by. Never thought I was overpaid, however."

"I don’t know why you think teachers have it made. I have been teaching for 5 years and make $41,000 a year at one of the highest paying school districts in Arkansas. And I certainly don’t have full benefits. It would be $787 a month to have insurance on myself, my husband, and daughter. And that doesn’t include any dental, vision, or additional coverage except a $5000 life policy. They just passed a law in 2006 that finally gave teachers here lunch breaks. Until then the law actually said that we only had to be given lunch breaks 80% of the time. I think the teachers unions are a good thing or we still wouldn’t have what every everyone else has a legal right to – a chance to each lunch."

"I am a first year teacher in the Mississippi Delta. I am from the state and understand a little of what goes on. I did not go into teaching for the money, however I do feel like I should complain when I make so little yet am held accountable for little Johnny’s grades when he is yet to bring a pencil to class. If I am going to put my reputaion as a professional out on the line I would like to be duly compensated for it. As far as the pay goes; Here I make base 31,900. I believe that this 1k above the state base. I also coach and recieve no restituion. I have been punched twice this year breaking up fights. I don’t know where everyone is getting this free dental and health insurance, because in mississippi we must pay for dental, and have a large deductible on our health coverage. I take work home with me at night, can’t sleep because my administration thought it would be funny to put me in a SATP class(US history). I am currently looking to relocate, because I teach in a school of 1,100, have 5 SR officers, and one of the most dangerous gang infested areas in the state. I just had to get a few things off my chest, because im sorry, my 848.63 is not enough for what I do."

"Teachers don’t just work 9 months out of the year. Lots of states go mid-August through June. Plus, as a professional, a teacher is expected to prepare classes, crunch student assessment data, write grants for classroom/school funding, investigate new curriculum, cross-curricular opportunities, and technology, as well as keep abreast of brain research, at a minimum. When school is in session, a teacher must work at least 55 hours per week if she actually wants to provide sufficient student feedback (grade, record, turn back), so all of the above happens during that alleged 3 month break."

"I’m not a teacher but my wife and a few of my friends are teachers. I hear some of the horror stories about kids and their parents. I wouldn’t want to be teacher because I’d end up losing my cool and getting fired.
Today’s teachers have a tougher curriculum to teach and their work day doesn’t end when they leave the school as most people think. Many good teachers spend 2 hours or more at home doing work after school. Teachers deserve every cent they get and then some."

"I have been teaching in SC for over 20 years now. It is indecent the way we are treated, least in my district. We spend hours doing useless, detailed lesson plans that never seem to please the powers that be. They ride us on everything, teaching has no longer been a priority, it is meetings after meeting, and forms beyond what you would understand. I spend hours everyday filling out paperwork and I never have time to prepare for my classes the way I would like.... We also haven’t had a raise from the district in 10 years. And we do spend hours at home doing work and we have to work some during the summer."

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Sorry for the long-ass post, but I just wanted to point out that my mom's story is FAR from unusual or unbelievable.

Also, did I mention that my teacher friend actually had to stop by his classroom on his way to the emergency room last week, to arrange for coverage & take care of the kids until the sub arrived?

lukin2006

_ wrote:

Sorry for the long-ass post, but I just wanted to point out that my mom's story is FAR from unusual or unbelievable.

Also, did I mention that my teacher friend actually had to stop by his classroom on his way to the emergency room last week, to arrange for coverage & take care of the kids until the sub arrived?

I have no answers for teachers plight, maybe all teachers from coast to coast need to leave the profession and then maybe government will compensate you better. I know if I was a young educated professional teacher and thought I was not being compensated fairly or I thought I could do better pay wise I would probably change professions. Thats just me though.

They could move to Ontario, teachers here are not hurting financially.

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lukin2006 wrote:

_ wrote:

Sorry for the long-ass post, but I just wanted to point out that my mom's story is FAR from unusual or unbelievable.

Also, did I mention that my teacher friend actually had to stop by his classroom on his way to the emergency room last week, to arrange for coverage & take care of the kids until the sub arrived?

I have no answers for teachers plight, maybe all teachers from coast to coast need to leave the profession and then maybe government will compensate you better. I know if I was a young educated professional teacher and thought I was not being compensated fairly or I thought I could do better pay wise I would probably change professions. Thats just me though.

They could move to Ontario, teachers here are not hurting financially.

I think it's pretty hard to go through all that schooling and incur student loans and then turn around and quit your job and go back to school, especially if you have a family to support.

Jeanwah

Ooooooohhh, a few stories of teacher testimonials....gives me the shivers.

You're not changing anyone's mind like no one will get you to open your eyes that the kids do NOT come first in education. It's certainly a fact that the U.S. public education FAILS our kids, yet you refuse to admit that, address that, or even acknowledge that. Keep googling more stories... whatever. :roll:

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So, I just asked my mom what her starting annual gross salary was as a teacher. $9,000. NINE thousand dollars. Per YEAR. Before deductions. :shock:

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Jeanwah wrote:

Ooooooohhh, a few stories of teacher testimonials....gives me the shivers.

You're not changing anyone's mind like no one will get you to open your eyes that the kids do NOT come first in education. It's certainly a fact that the U.S. public education FAILS our kids, yet you refuse to admit that, address that, or even acknowledge that. Keep googling more stories... whatever. :roll:

It's absolutely baffling to me how you have zero interest in reality. :?

It's also baffling to me how you think you know the lives and hearts of everyone else better than they do.

And I have NEVER said the U.S. public education system doesn't fail our kids, so I don't know how you can claim that I refuse to admit that. All I have talked about at all is your bogus claim that teachers across the country, as a whole, are selfish and well-compensated. I would assert, however, that it's YOU and people like you with their disinterest in reality and their belief that teachers have to be screwed for kids to succeed who are at the root of why our education system sucks in this country. And I believe that claim is supported by the data showing that students get better educations in countries where teachers are valued.

Did a teacher hurt you as a child or something? :?

Jeanwah

_ wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

Ooooooohhh, a few stories of teacher testimonials....gives me the shivers.

You're not changing anyone's mind like no one will get you to open your eyes that the kids do NOT come first in education. It's certainly a fact that the U.S. public education FAILS our kids, yet you refuse to admit that, address that, or even acknowledge that. Keep googling more stories... whatever. :roll:

It's absolutely baffling to me how you have zero interest in reality. :?

It's also baffling to me how you think you know the lives and hearts of everyone else better than they do.

And I have NEVER said the U.S. public education system doesn't fail our kids, so I don't know how you can claim that I refuse to admit that. All I have talked about at all is your bogus claim that teachers across the country, as a whole, are selfish and well-compensated. I would assert, however, that it's YOU and people like you with their disinterest in reality and their belief that teachers have to be screwed for kids to succeed who are at the root of why our education system sucks in this country. And I believe that claim is supported by the data showing that students get better educations in countries where teachers are valued.

Did a teacher hurt you as a child or something? :?

Yet you've never even acknowledged the kids, only the teachers, throughout this whole thread. What a joke.
Keep the rudeness coming... You're always good at that! :roll:

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Jeanwah wrote:

Yet you've never even acknowledged the kids, only the teachers, throughout this whole thread. What a joke.
Keep the rudeness coming... You're always good at that! :roll:

Though I have acknowledged the kids by saying what I think is in their best interest, this conversation is about the teachers. YOU have been talking about the teachers and I have been responding to your comments about the teachers.

And please note your tone as well. :roll:

Jeanwah

_ wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

Yet you've never even acknowledged the kids, only the teachers, throughout this whole thread. What a joke.
Keep the rudeness coming... You're always good at that! :roll:

Though I have acknowledged the kids by saying what I think is in their best interest, this conversation is about the teachers. YOU have been talking about the teachers and I have been responding to your comments about the teachers.

And please note your tone as well. :roll:

Bullshit have you acknowledged the kids' interests. You're not kidding anyone here. THIS conversation is about EDUCATION CUTS, which means what's being cut from the students and the school districts. Teachers are part of that conversation and you've veered not at all very far from what you think about teachers. You don't have kids, you consider your time in school years ago, to being aware of 'student interests', and have said nothing about students in general other than "Teacher unions look out for the kids". So when you feel like talking about the big issue here, EDUCATION CUTS, you let us know.

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Jeanwah wrote:

Ooooooohhh, a few stories of teacher testimonials....gives me the shivers.

You're not changing anyone's mind like no one will get you to open your eyes that the kids do NOT come first in education. It's certainly a fact that the U.S. public education FAILS our kids, yet you refuse to admit that, address that, or even acknowledge that. Keep googling more stories... whatever. :roll:

I'm actually not even sure what you're really saying here. Are you saying that tens, hundreds, thousands, or more people who don't know each other can independently say that they work outside the hours you have claimed, make less money that you have claimed, care more than you have claimed - and your response is just that they are all lying?? Here's what I'm understanding you to be saying, so please correct me if I'm wrong:

Person #1 (X 100,000): I work on evenings and weekends preparing lesson plans.
Jeanwah: No you don't.

Person #2: I attend mandatory meetings in the summers.
Jeanwah: I don't believe you.

Person #3: I provide social support in addition to just textbook educations.
Jeanwah: Post a link & prove it.

Person #4: I use my own money to pay for supplies for the classroom.
Jeanwah: That's not true.

Person #5: I get paid x amount of money.
Jeanwah: That can't be true since I know someone in another state who makes more.

Person #6: The state legislature has voted for my paychecks to be decreased.
Jeanwah: I know more about your paycheck than you do and I say that's bullshit.

Person #7: I care about and sacrifice for my students.
Jeanwah: No you don't.

Et cetera.

:? :?

Jeanwah

_ wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

Ooooooohhh, a few stories of teacher testimonials....gives me the shivers.

You're not changing anyone's mind like no one will get you to open your eyes that the kids do NOT come first in education. It's certainly a fact that the U.S. public education FAILS our kids, yet you refuse to admit that, address that, or even acknowledge that. Keep googling more stories... whatever. :roll:

I'm actually not even sure what you're really saying here. Are you saying that tens, hundreds, thousands, or more people who don't know each other can independently say that they work outside the hours you have claimed, make less money that you have claimed, care more than you have claimed - and your response is just that they are all lying?? Here's what I'm understanding you to be saying, so please correct me if I'm wrong:

Person #1 (X 100,000): I work on evenings and weekends preparing lesson plans.
Jeanwah: No you don't.

Person #2: I attend mandatory meetings in the summers.
Jeanwah: I don't believe you.

Person #3: I provide social support in addition to just textbook educations.
Jeanwah: Post a link & prove it.

Person #4: I use my own money to pay for supplies for the classroom.
Jeanwah: That's not true.

Person #5: I get paid x amount of money.
Jeanwah: That can't be true since I know someone in another state who makes more.

Person #6: The state legislature has voted for my paychecks to be decreased.
Jeanwah: I know more about your paycheck than you do and I say that's bullshit.

Person #7: I care about and sacrifice for my students.
Jeanwah: No you don't.

Et cetera.

:? :?

And this just verifies my point. That you refuse to realize that your preoccupation with the teachers prevents you from seeing the real issue: the KIDS!

_

Jeanwah wrote:

_ wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

Yet you've never even acknowledged the kids, only the teachers, throughout this whole thread. What a joke.
Keep the rudeness coming... You're always good at that! :roll:

Though I have acknowledged the kids by saying what I think is in their best interest, this conversation is about the teachers. YOU have been talking about the teachers and I have been responding to your comments about the teachers.

And please note your tone as well. :roll:

Bullshit have you acknowledged the kids' interests. You're not kidding anyone here. THIS conversation is about EDUCATION CUTS, which means what's being cut from the students and the school districts. Teachers are part of that conversation and you've veered not at all very far from what you think about teachers. You don't have kids, you consider your time in school years ago, to being aware of 'student interests', and have said nothing about students in general other than "Teacher unions look out for the kids". So when you feel like talking about the big issue here, EDUCATION CUTS, you let us know.

Do I really need to recap for you? You said "It's really all about [the teachers], and not the kids," to which I replied, "I couldn't agree less with that gross generalization." And that is what our conversation has been about. YOU are the one who steered the conversation in this direction, so I don't think you really have room to give me shit for following your lead.

Regardless, how on earth can we even talk about the "big issue" when you are narrowly focused on condemning teachers (& their unions) for all the ills of the education system?? It's not possible to solve any problem when starting from a false premise. How about this... when you're ready to base the discussion of this issue in reality, you let "us" know.

_

Jeanwah wrote:

_ wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

Ooooooohhh, a few stories of teacher testimonials....gives me the shivers.

You're not changing anyone's mind like no one will get you to open your eyes that the kids do NOT come first in education. It's certainly a fact that the U.S. public education FAILS our kids, yet you refuse to admit that, address that, or even acknowledge that. Keep googling more stories... whatever. :roll:

I'm actually not even sure what you're really saying here. Are you saying that tens, hundreds, thousands, or more people who don't know each other can independently say that they work outside the hours you have claimed, make less money that you have claimed, care more than you have claimed - and your response is just that they are all lying?? Here's what I'm understanding you to be saying, so please correct me if I'm wrong:

Person #1 (X 100,000): I work on evenings and weekends preparing lesson plans.
Jeanwah: No you don't.

Person #2: I attend mandatory meetings in the summers.
Jeanwah: I don't believe you.

Person #3: I provide social support in addition to just textbook educations.
Jeanwah: Post a link & prove it.

Person #4: I use my own money to pay for supplies for the classroom.
Jeanwah: That's not true.

Person #5: I get paid x amount of money.
Jeanwah: That can't be true since I know someone in another state who makes more.

Person #6: The state legislature has voted for my paychecks to be decreased.
Jeanwah: I know more about your paycheck than you do and I say that's bullshit.

Person #7: I care about and sacrifice for my students.
Jeanwah: No you don't.

Et cetera.

:? :?

And this just verifies my point. That you refuse to realize that your preoccupation with the teachers prevents you from seeing the real issue: the KIDS!

Hmm... as I've already said, I am not refusing to talk about kids. I have been RESPONDING to YOUR issue: the teachers. You can't just change the subject and then, when you have no good response, change it back again - and try to blame it on me! Clever trick though.

Regardless, you completely dodged my question. Are you saying that all these people are lying??

lukin2006

_ wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

_ wrote:

Sorry for the long-ass post, but I just wanted to point out that my mom's story is FAR from unusual or unbelievable.

Also, did I mention that my teacher friend actually had to stop by his classroom on his way to the emergency room last week, to arrange for coverage & take care of the kids until the sub arrived?

I have no answers for teachers plight, maybe all teachers from coast to coast need to leave the profession and then maybe government will compensate you better. I know if I was a young educated professional teacher and thought I was not being compensated fairly or I thought I could do better pay wise I would probably change professions. Thats just me though.

They could move to Ontario, teachers here are not hurting financially.

I think it's pretty hard to go through all that schooling and incur student loans and then turn around and quit your job and go back to school, especially if you have a family to support.

Here in Ontario it's a BA or higher and a year of teacher's college. Surely the BA is worth something. Do guidance councilors not warn students that teaching has poor pay and benefits, so students know that they should consider other options?

_

lukin2006 wrote:

_ wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

I have no answers for teachers plight, maybe all teachers from coast to coast need to leave the profession and then maybe government will compensate you better. I know if I was a young educated professional teacher and thought I was not being compensated fairly or I thought I could do better pay wise I would probably change professions. Thats just me though.

They could move to Ontario, teachers here are not hurting financially.

I think it's pretty hard to go through all that schooling and incur student loans and then turn around and quit your job and go back to school, especially if you have a family to support.

Here in Ontario it's a BA or higher and a year of teacher's college. Surely the BA is worth something. Do guidance councilors not warn students that teaching has poor pay and benefits, so students know that they should consider other options?

Yeah, they know. But, contrary to popular belief, they go into it to help the kids, not for the money.