i am still confused, as to why we "cut" our citizens. while we "promote" their citizens.
i would rather fund programs, that i do not believe in, here in The United States, over programs in other countries.
we take monies from our own, who would die for our country.....and give it to countries that want us to die.
i know...i am a bad guy.
quite a bit of your "aid" comes in the form of military sales ... which really means the US gives money to defence contractors based in the states to give to foreign countries ...
i am still confused, as to why we "cut" our citizens. while we "promote" their citizens.
i would rather fund programs, that i do not believe in, here in The United States, over programs in other countries.
we take monies from our own, who would die for our country.....and give it to countries that want us to die.
i know...i am a bad guy.
quite a bit of your "aid" comes in the form of military sales ... which really means the US gives money to defence contractors based in the states to give to foreign countries ...
there will be no discourse from me....i want to stop selling/donating weapons to the countries that want us removed.
i want to stop donating monies to the educational systems of the same countries....and put those monies to our children.
i have sent my concerns to our congrossman.....i will post the response, if there is one.
live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
You need to get your head out of your ass and start actually reading what I am writing. I am commenting on his view of whats wrong with the public education by watching a misleading documentary. If you have evern seen that documentary you would see the issues I have with it, being as you said you are in education. So in that above comment please point out where I said "I have the only experience with education systems". nothing in that post even refers to me having ANY experience. Quit taking my post so personal, is it that time of the month?
I watched it last night, and I seriously don't know why you'd have a problem with this documetary, dude. It was excellent. Whatever your personal problems are with education, and I know you have serious issues, write your local congress person, like I already mentioned. Don't accuse us, writers on a debate board, that we don't understand you, because it seriously gets you nowhere. And I've read plenty about Michelle Rhee, and think that she did wonders for D.C. schools.
I watched it last night, and I seriously don't know why you'd have a problem with this documetary, dude. It was excellent. Whatever your personal problems are with education, and I know you have serious issues, write your local congress person, like I already mentioned. Don't accuse us, writers on a debate board, that we don't understand you, because it seriously gets you nowhere. And I've read plenty about Michelle Rhee, and think that she did wonders for D.C. schools.
the documentary definitely emphasizes the union as a big problem ... and basically that there are a lot of stiff teachers ... i would have liked to seen more info on funding relative to each state and compare it with some places like south korea or norway ...
I watched it last night, and I seriously don't know why you'd have a problem with this documetary, dude. It was excellent. Whatever your personal problems are with education, and I know you have serious issues, write your local congress person, like I already mentioned. Don't accuse us, writers on a debate board, that we don't understand you, because it seriously gets you nowhere. And I've read plenty about Michelle Rhee, and think that she did wonders for D.C. schools.
the documentary definitely emphasizes the union as a big problem ... and basically that there are a lot of stiff teachers ... i would have liked to seen more info on funding relative to each state and compare it with some places like south korea or norway ...
The unions totally hold education reform back. Because their interests are for the adults, not the students. Who's going to look out for the students' welfare? I didn't know that they toss around bad teachers to other districts because they'll never be fired, nor did I know about Rubber Rooms! It's a disgrace! I know many teachers who defend the union; it really is all about them, and not the kids. I know there are many excellent teachers out there, but the bad ones really let the kids down.
The unions totally hold education reform back. Because their interests are for the adults, not the students. Who's going to look out for the students' welfare? I didn't know that they toss around bad teachers to other districts because they'll never be fired, nor did I know about Rubber Rooms! It's a disgrace! I know many teachers who defend the union; it really is all about them, and not the kids.
I couldn't agree less with that gross generalization. My mom is a teacher. My dad was a teacher. My grandparents were teachers. My aunt is a teacher. My best friend is a teacher. And all my teachers were teachers. And my experience is that, while there are a few bad apples in every profession, most teachers are selfless people who sacrifice greatly for the good of their students. I don't think it's in any way inappropriate for the people who arguably have the most important job there is to want to secure a living wage & decent retirement. It's a fucking shame that they are so undervalued that they need unions to help them do it - but they do. I really couldn't be more disgusted with your comment underlined above. :(
The unions totally hold education reform back. Because their interests are for the adults, not the students. Who's going to look out for the students' welfare? I didn't know that they toss around bad teachers to other districts because they'll never be fired, nor did I know about Rubber Rooms! It's a disgrace! I know many teachers who defend the union; it really is all about them, and not the kids.
I couldn't agree less with that gross generalization. My mom is a teacher. My dad was a teacher. My grandparents were teachers. My aunt is a teacher. My best friend is a teacher. And all my teachers were teachers. And my experience is that, while there are a few bad apples in every profession, most teachers are selfless people who sacrifice greatly for the good of their students. I don't think it's in any way inappropriate for the people who arguably have the most important job there is to want to secure a living wage & decent retirement. It's a fucking shame that they are so undervalued that they need unions to help them do it - but they do. I really couldn't be more disgusted with your comment underlined above. :(
You didn't quote my entire post. There are some incredible teachers out there. 2 of my sisters, and my grandmother are (were) teachers. But the unions only help the adults. Long ago they were created to help teachers who were paid very low, because they were mostly women who society saw as not 'needing' to work, and also so college professors couldn't be fired due to political reasons. The unions were formed with good reason then. But they are now doing a horrible injustice to education, by keeping bad teachers employed. Have you even seen the documentary scb?
The unions totally hold education reform back. Because their interests are for the adults, not the students. Who's going to look out for the students' welfare? I didn't know that they toss around bad teachers to other districts because they'll never be fired, nor did I know about Rubber Rooms! It's a disgrace! I know many teachers who defend the union; it really is all about them, and not the kids.
I couldn't agree less with that gross generalization. My mom is a teacher. My dad was a teacher. My grandparents were teachers. My aunt is a teacher. My best friend is a teacher. And all my teachers were teachers. And my experience is that, while there are a few bad apples in every profession, most teachers are selfless people who sacrifice greatly for the good of their students. I don't think it's in any way inappropriate for the people who arguably have the most important job there is to want to secure a living wage & decent retirement. It's a fucking shame that they are so undervalued that they need unions to help them do it - but they do. I really couldn't be more disgusted with your comment underlined above. :(
Great post "scb" I couldn't agree more. uh ohhhh...
The unions totally hold education reform back. Because their interests are for the adults, not the students. Who's going to look out for the students' welfare? I didn't know that they toss around bad teachers to other districts because they'll never be fired, nor did I know about Rubber Rooms! It's a disgrace! I know many teachers who defend the union; it really is all about them, and not the kids.
I couldn't agree less with that gross generalization. My mom is a teacher. My dad was a teacher. My grandparents were teachers. My aunt is a teacher. My best friend is a teacher. And all my teachers were teachers. And my experience is that, while there are a few bad apples in every profession, most teachers are selfless people who sacrifice greatly for the good of their students. I don't think it's in any way inappropriate for the people who arguably have the most important job there is to want to secure a living wage & decent retirement. It's a fucking shame that they are so undervalued that they need unions to help them do it - but they do. I really couldn't be more disgusted with your comment underlined above. :(
Great post "scb" I couldn't agree more. uh ohhhh...
All you're doing is verifying that you both think that welfare of the teachers is more important than the education of the students... pretty sickening...
You didn't quote my entire post. There are some incredible teachers out there. 2 of my sisters, and my grandmother are (were) teachers. But the unions only help the adults. Long ago they were created to help teachers who were paid very low, because they were mostly women who society saw as not 'needing' to work, and also so college professors couldn't be fired due to political reasons. The unions were formed with good reason then. But they are now doing a horrible injustice to education, by keeping bad teachers employed. Have you even seen the documentary scb?
And this is the main reason why I have issues with this doc. you keep talking about teachers/unions and are forgetting the most important aspect. The parents and students. Did you coun't how many times they said Parents in the doc.? How much focus did they put on the Students responsibility to WANT to learn. Public school teachers have the worst jobs and people look down on them because they want decent benefits???
At a public school a Teacher has to be police officer/social worker/guidance counselor, etc. Not only that but after they do all that work the Schools don't support their decisions on discipline and a kid (who assulted my wife) got 1 day INS. ( in school suspension). The reason why I succeeded in school was because my Dad backed my teacher/school up. If I got in trouble at school I also got in trouble at home. He went to the parent teacher conferences to see what I need to work on. He made sure I did my homework before I played. Its amazing how good of a student an average person can become if their household holds education to the same standard that the teachers do. You only get out what you put in.
All you're doing is verifying that you both think that welfare of the teachers is more important than the education of the students... pretty sickening...
Teachers are providing a service that is extremely important, which also takes alot of dedication to furthering their own education. They should recieve benefits... I am not sure how that is verifying anyting or putting themselves before the student??? Are you suggesting that teaching should be a voulenteer job?
You didn't quote my entire post. There are some incredible teachers out there. 2 of my sisters, and my grandmother are (were) teachers. But the unions only help the adults. Long ago they were created to help teachers who were paid very low, because they were mostly women who society saw as not 'needing' to work, and also so college professors couldn't be fired due to political reasons. The unions were formed with good reason then. But they are now doing a horrible injustice to education, by keeping bad teachers employed. Have you even seen the documentary scb?
And this is the main reason why I have issues with this doc. you keep talking about teachers/unions and are forgetting the most important aspect. The parents and students. Did you coun't how many times they said Parents in the doc.? How much focus did they put on the Students responsibility to WANT to learn. Public school teachers have the worst jobs and people look down on them because they want decent benefits???
At a public school a Teacher has to be police officer/social worker/guidance counselor, etc. Not only that but after they do all that work the Schools don't support their decisions on discipline and a kid (who assulted my wife) got 1 day INS. ( in school suspension). The reason why I succeeded in school was because my Dad backed my teacher/school up. If I got in trouble at school I also got in trouble at home. He went to the parent teacher conferences to see what I need to work on. He made sure I did my homework before I played. Its amazing how good of a student an average person can become if their household holds education to the same standard that the teachers do. You only get out what you put in.
Are you kidding? The entire doc was about kids wanting a better education and their parents doing their best to get their kids into better schools! They knew they couldn't fix the failing schools so they took their chance with getting into schools that required a lottery or winning scores because there were only so many open spots, but the demand to get into those spots were overwhelming!
Public school teachers do not have the worst jobs because they now get paid so well, and have awesome schedules! It's gotten to the point that college students choose the profession because of "summers off", and not because they truly care about education. Yes, the kids assault teachers, that is society's problem, since liability issues prevent schools from taking disciplinary actions. That is a disgrace. Parents on the whole did back up teachers in our day, and now we have some sue-happy parents who explode when a teacher disciplines their kid. That's society for you, thank the parents who allow this to happen, and then wonder why teachers can't discipline.
I know how well teachers are paid in my state. I know all about the step raises they get multiple times a year. Don't tell me that they deserve the spiked incomes and tenure over a teaching a child well. Like I said before, it's about the kids, not the teachers! Funny how you don't address the problem of bad teachers continuing to teach. Do you even have any kids or did you enter this discussion because your wife is a teacher?!
Yeah I meant USA, it was in my location under my avatar that's why I didn't post it...I agree with you %100 but where did this go wrong? There is just no logic behind any of these proposed cuts, unfortunately not all but the majority of society here are very ignorant minded when it comes to education. I just don't understand how people in this country over the years have decided to just roll over and let the government violate them any way they please...
sorry ... when i hit reply ... that info wasn't there ...
education is a socialist policy ... america is not a socialist nation ... it's a me-first nation ... americans want the freedom to garner as much wealth as humanly possible with as little hindrance as possible ... what that means also is that the powers that run the country know that an uneducated population base is much easier to manipulate - illegal wars, covert operations, etc ...
i mean rBGH is approved in the US but not in Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and the EU (which makes up pretty much most of the developed countries) ... that pretty much sums it up there ...
To comment on that, although those countries do not approve the use of rBGH in products made in the their borders, they do allow many imports with to be brought in and sold in those countries.
Also, many of the colleges/university faculties are doing highly paid "side projects" for the same financial institutions that are crippling the US...the problem lies in the fact they do not find a conflict of interest in that at all. Seriously, get the doc Inside Job. The people in the doc are the real people who were watched it all go down first hand, politicians to professors. It's time to stand up and be counted people.
You didn't quote my entire post. There are some incredible teachers out there. 2 of my sisters, and my grandmother are (were) teachers. But the unions only help the adults. Long ago they were created to help teachers who were paid very low, because they were mostly women who society saw as not 'needing' to work, and also so college professors couldn't be fired due to political reasons. The unions were formed with good reason then. But they are now doing a horrible injustice to education, by keeping bad teachers employed. Have you even seen the documentary scb?
Hmm... Did you edit your post right after you posted it and after I had already hit "quote"? (I know posts don't show as edited if you edit them soon enough.) Because I don't remember seeing that last sentence & I'm pretty sure I didn't delete anything. :?
No, I haven't seen the documentary. It's in my Netflix queue but I haven't gotten to it.
But my post wasn't about the documentary; it was about your statement I underlined, which I found very offensive à la HeidiJam (since we're calling people by their former names).
I still think teachers need unions, especially as long as they are so undervalued & under compensated. Educators in my state have gotten across-the-board pay cuts for the past two or three years, so their salaries can be given to the state general fund, while there are still solvency issues with their pension fund - and it would have been worse had they not had union representation. Additionally, unions do work for the kids. Not only do they fight against cuts to the education system as a whole, but their work for decent teacher wages means kids get better teachers. Whether or not unions are responsible for the retention of every bad teacher in the country is debatable, but if that's the case then that specific problem should be fixed. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
You didn't quote my entire post. There are some incredible teachers out there. 2 of my sisters, and my grandmother are (were) teachers. But the unions only help the adults. Long ago they were created to help teachers who were paid very low, because they were mostly women who society saw as not 'needing' to work, and also so college professors couldn't be fired due to political reasons. The unions were formed with good reason then. But they are now doing a horrible injustice to education, by keeping bad teachers employed. Have you even seen the documentary scb?
Hmm... Did you edit your post right after you posted it and after I had already hit "quote"? (I know posts don't show as edited if you edit them soon enough.) Because I don't remember seeing that last sentence & I'm pretty sure I didn't delete anything. :?
No, I haven't seen the documentary. It's in my Netflix queue but I haven't gotten to it.
But my post wasn't about the documentary; it was about your statement I underlined, which I found very offensive à la HeidiJam (since we're calling people by their former names).
I still think teachers need unions, especially as long as they are so undervalued & under compensated. Educators in my state have gotten across-the-board pay cuts for the past two or three years, so their salaries can be given to the state general fund, while there are still solvency issues with their pension fund - and it would have been worse had they not had union representation. Additionally, unions do work for the kids. Not only do they fight against cuts to the education system as a whole, but their work for decent teacher wages means kids get better teachers. Whether or not unions are responsible for the retention of every bad teacher in the country is debatable, but if that's the case then that specific problem should be fixed. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
I usually end up editing everything I type because I usually need to correct my grammar and yeah, I did add that sentence on, so it's understandable that you may have responded immediately and didn't catch it.
Funny, but you've known me for years... you're going to say that I'm someone else? Please. I've never changed my name and never intend to.
It's quite strange that you and Blockhead seem to think that teachers are undercompensated. Because they certainly aren't, at least in my state. Why don't you do some research and find out exactly how much teachers in your area are paid, before jumping to conclusions. You sound like you know what you're talking about, but unions don't allow the state to come in and slash salaries! That's what unions do - protect the employee from outside interference! So I can't believe what you say. Why don't you post a link to prove me wrong.
The bolded statement? Pure bullshit. Take a look at that docuentary. Ask students what their teachers are like. I assume that what you say is hearsay or from a teacher. Look up what tenure is all about. It's is a guarentee that once a teacher, you will never lose your job, no matter how badly you perform. And that's nothing new; that's typical union tactics. And that's how teachers unions absolutely fail the kids.
I don't work for the DOE, but I do work in a school. From the many things I have learned working in a school, one thing is sure, tenure is not working in the three schools I have worked in NYC. Reform is needed and unfortunately we have not reached the right combination.
As for waiting for superman, just like anything else it is sponsorship. It is a friend of a friend of the guy from HCZ. While HCZ has done great things it is not the nat'l answer nor should it be the nat'l model.
I don't work for the DOE, but I do work in a school. From the many things I have learned working in a school, one thing is sure, tenure is not working in the three schools I have worked in NYC. Reform is needed and unfortunately we have not reached the right combination.
As for waiting for superman, just like anything else it is sponsorship. It is a friend of a friend of the guy from HCZ. While HCZ has done great things it is not the nat'l answer nor should it be the nat'l model.
Community schools would be a better choice.
Do you have any specifics on the budget cuts down there in the city? I found out tonight that the state cuts are larger for upstate districts especially rural (we're getting cut HARD). I'd love to know why this is so. We're losing a ton of programs. :( Teachers refuse to take a pay freeze, conveniently, adding to our distress.
Is it high? I don't think so...considering the cost of living in Seattle. Is it low? I don't think so either.
so it is amazing to me that of all public employees in the world, teachers are attacked most often and that is who the GOP like to go after. They really should be the last people in line to talk about cutting salaries.
I posted this before, but maybe they should go after poor old Sean Duffy who only makes $174,000 (and he has to drive a used minivan!!!) a year as a Wisconsin rep, but has the nerve to attack teachers.
I don't work for the DOE, but I do work in a school. From the many things I have learned working in a school, one thing is sure, tenure is not working in the three schools I have worked in NYC. Reform is needed and unfortunately we have not reached the right combination.
As for waiting for superman, just like anything else it is sponsorship. It is a friend of a friend of the guy from HCZ. While HCZ has done great things it is not the nat'l answer nor should it be the nat'l model.
Community schools would be a better choice.
Do you have any specifics on the budget cuts down there in the city? I found out tonight that the state cuts are larger for upstate districts especially rural (we're getting cut HARD). I'd love to know why this is so. We're losing a ton of programs. :( Teachers refuse to take a pay freeze, conveniently, adding to our distress.
I usually end up editing everything I type because I usually need to correct my grammar and yeah, I did add that sentence on, so it's understandable that you may have responded immediately and didn't catch it.
Funny, but you've known me for years... you're going to say that I'm someone else? Please. I've never changed my name and never intend to.
It's quite strange that you and Blockhead seem to think that teachers are undercompensated. Because they certainly aren't, at least in my state. Why don't you do some research and find out exactly how much teachers in your area are paid, before jumping to conclusions. You sound like you know what you're talking about, but unions don't allow the state to come in and slash salaries! That's what unions do - protect the employee from outside interference! So I can't believe what you say. Why don't you post a link to prove me wrong.
The bolded statement? Pure bullshit. Take a look at that docuentary. Ask students what their teachers are like. I assume that what you say is hearsay or from a teacher. Look up what tenure is all about. It's is a guarentee that once a teacher, you will never lose your job, no matter how badly you perform. And that's nothing new; that's typical union tactics. And that's how teachers unions absolutely fail the kids.
Oh, and do you even have any school-aged kids?
Okay, seriously.... What the hell are talking about???
First of all, I DIDN'T accuse you of changing your name, so please re-read my post before you get so defensive.
Secondly, I don't know what state you live in, but in the 5 states I've lived in, in which my mom & other family members have taught, teachers are grossly underpaid, so maybe YOU should try doing some fucking research before jumping to conclusions. You're the one who doesn't know what the fuck you're talking about if you're going to tell me the state didn't cut educators' salaries. Have you seen my paychecks?? Do I really have to post them for you before you believe I know how much money I fucking make?? :roll:
Third, I don't need to look up what tenure is all about. Not only do I already know what it's about, but it's irrelevant to the part of my post to which you were referring. I said unions support children by opposing education cuts in general, and because securing a living wage for teachers means more good teachers can afford to stick around. How is that possibly bullshit?? Your comment completely failed to address my point.
Fourth, what difference does it make whether I have school-aged children or not?? I spent 13 years of my life being a school-aged child! I know tons of people in all aspects of the education system. And I pay attention to what's going on in our schools. Are you actually suggesting (perhaps because you failed to address them) that my points are invalid just because I don't have children of my own who are currently on school? Please. Maybe you did used to be someone else after all; you're starting to sound an awful lot like Pandora. :roll:
Look, I don't know what state you live in where teachers are paid so well, but that doesn't change the fact that you don't have a fucking clue about the educational systems in all other states. So you can't sit there & tell me that just because you know of some supposedly well-paid teachers that the poorly-paid teachers I know of don't exist - or that I don't know what I'm talking about when I tell you what's going on where I live. That would be like me saying, "What do you mean it's not snowing where you live?? Well you need to do some research instead of jumping to conclusions and post some links before I believe you know what you're talking about, because it's snowing where I live, so therefore I know that it's snowing everywhere!"
Also, I don't know where you got this notion that the welfare of teachers & the welfare of students are mutually exclusive, but that kind of attitude is far more harmful to students than some tenured "bad" teachers will ever be.
I have a lot of experience in education and I feel that teachers are not underpaid. There are some teachers who probably deserve more, but on the whole my opinion is that they're paid about right.
Also, people need to remember that they're only work 75% as much as everyone else so you need to factor that in when evaluating comparative salaries.
Furthermore, it's ridiculous that teachers have unions these days. Do we know of any other "professional" occupation that has a union? (and even if we do, I am 100% against the concept of unions in the USA in this day and time)
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Why in the hell is Education spending cut every time shit hits the fan in this country? I've read numerous articles and I still don't understand why Education spending/programs are targeted, maybe I'm missing something but I'm just looking to see if anyone here has any input on the subject. There is no justification from the things I've read, at least not in my mind, so any input would be welcome.
It makes sense to cut education if spending on education is redundant-- if the states have their own education departments, why not get rid of the federal department of the same name, or at least downsize it greatly? Where does the federal government have the legal authority to have power over education in the states anyway? How well is it working?
Would this be the first place I would cut money from? No. I'd end the wars first for dozens of moral reasons, but also for fiscal reasons. War, just like education or anything else, isn't any more effective just because money is thrown at it. All of the conflicts overseas clearly demonstrate that these wars have been horribly mismanaged, and just keep bleeding the taxpayer while not making us any safer. I would bring all of our troops from around the world home as well-- there's no need for them to be in over 150 countries, and it costs far too much.
The should also be major cuts to any federal department that has outright FAILED at its stated purpose, such as the Department of Energy, whose stated purpose was to help us decrease our dependence on foreign oil. DHS, don't need ya. IRS, don't need ya. Replace the Federal Reserve with a commodity standard, or if we remain on a fiat currency, just let the Treasury print the money, interest free. Corporate welfare, subsidies, and foreign aid, get rid of all of those too.
I believe that more competition in education would bring about better education. I'd rather see it privatized and see grammar schools handing out scholarships and fundraising rather than just everyone paying in to some slush fund whether their children will use it or not.
And lastly, people have got to be willing to learn and want to take advantage of education for it to mean anything. A question for everyone here, how much of your high school education remains with you today?
where's the smilie with the 'GOOMBA for PRESIDENT' sign :?: :!:
Why in the hell is Education spending cut every time shit hits the fan in this country? I've read numerous articles and I still don't understand why Education spending/programs are targeted, maybe I'm missing something but I'm just looking to see if anyone here has any input on the subject. There is no justification from the things I've read, at least not in my mind, so any input would be welcome.
It makes sense to cut education if spending on education is redundant-- if the states have their own education departments, why not get rid of the federal department of the same name, or at least downsize it greatly? Where does the federal government have the legal authority to have power over education in the states anyway? How well is it working?
Would this be the first place I would cut money from? No. I'd end the wars first for dozens of moral reasons, but also for fiscal reasons. War, just like education or anything else, isn't any more effective just because money is thrown at it. All of the conflicts overseas clearly demonstrate that these wars have been horribly mismanaged, and just keep bleeding the taxpayer while not making us any safer. I would bring all of our troops from around the world home as well-- there's no need for them to be in over 150 countries, and it costs far too much.
The should also be major cuts to any federal department that has outright FAILED at its stated purpose, such as the Department of Energy, whose stated purpose was to help us decrease our dependence on foreign oil. DHS, don't need ya. IRS, don't need ya. Replace the Federal Reserve with a commodity standard, or if we remain on a fiat currency, just let the Treasury print the money, interest free. Corporate welfare, subsidies, and foreign aid, get rid of all of those too.
I believe that more competition in education would bring about better education. I'd rather see it privatized and see grammar schools handing out scholarships and fundraising rather than just everyone paying in to some slush fund whether their children will use it or not.
And lastly, people have got to be willing to learn and want to take advantage of education for it to mean anything. A question for everyone here, how much of your high school education remains with you today?
where's the smilie with the 'GOOMBA for PRESIDENT' sign :?: :!:
You've got your second vote here.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I usually end up editing everything I type because I usually need to correct my grammar and yeah, I did add that sentence on, so it's understandable that you may have responded immediately and didn't catch it.
Funny, but you've known me for years... you're going to say that I'm someone else? Please. I've never changed my name and never intend to.
It's quite strange that you and Blockhead seem to think that teachers are undercompensated. Because they certainly aren't, at least in my state. Why don't you do some research and find out exactly how much teachers in your area are paid, before jumping to conclusions. You sound like you know what you're talking about, but unions don't allow the state to come in and slash salaries! That's what unions do - protect the employee from outside interference! So I can't believe what you say. Why don't you post a link to prove me wrong.
The bolded statement? Pure bullshit. Take a look at that docuentary. Ask students what their teachers are like. I assume that what you say is hearsay or from a teacher. Look up what tenure is all about. It's is a guarentee that once a teacher, you will never lose your job, no matter how badly you perform. And that's nothing new; that's typical union tactics. And that's how teachers unions absolutely fail the kids.
Oh, and do you even have any school-aged kids?
Okay, seriously.... What the hell are talking about???
First of all, I DIDN'T accuse you of changing your name, so please re-read my post before you get so defensive.
Secondly, I don't know what state you live in, but in the 5 states I've lived in, in which my mom & other family members have taught, teachers are grossly underpaid, so maybe YOU should try doing some fucking research before jumping to conclusions. You're the one who doesn't know what the fuck you're talking about if you're going to tell me the state didn't cut educators' salaries. Have you seen my paychecks?? Do I really have to post them for you before you believe I know how much money I fucking make?? :roll:
Third, I don't need to look up what tenure is all about. Not only do I already know what it's about, but it's irrelevant to the part of my post to which you were referring. I said unions support children by opposing education cuts in general, and because securing a living wage for teachers means more good teachers can afford to stick around. How is that possibly bullshit?? Your comment completely failed to address my point.
Fourth, what difference does it make whether I have school-aged children or not?? I spent 13 years of my life being a school-aged child! I know tons of people in all aspects of the education system. And I pay attention to what's going on in our schools. Are you actually suggesting (perhaps because you failed to address them) that my points are invalid just because I don't have children of my own who are currently on school? Please. Maybe you did used to be someone else after all; you're starting to sound an awful lot like Pandora. :roll:
Look, I don't know what state you live in where teachers are paid so well, but that doesn't change the fact that you don't have a fucking clue about the educational systems in all other states. So you can't sit there & tell me that just because you know of some supposedly well-paid teachers that the poorly-paid teachers I know of don't exist - or that I don't know what I'm talking about when I tell you what's going on where I live. That would be like me saying, "What do you mean it's not snowing where you live?? Well you need to do some research instead of jumping to conclusions and post some links before I believe you know what you're talking about, because it's snowing where I live, so therefore I know that it's snowing everywhere!"
Also, I don't know where you got this notion that the welfare of teachers & the welfare of students are mutually exclusive, but that kind of attitude is far more harmful to students than some tenured "bad" teachers will ever be.
There you go getting all personal and with the unnecessary f-bombs and insults. Ya know what? I'm not going to play your game, and I do, know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not going to discuss education cuts with someone who DOESN'T EVEN HAVE CHILDREN. It's clear what side you're on, and I refuse to waste my time with the likes of you, scb, any longer. See ya! But I will say this, watch the documentary!
Is it high? I don't think so...considering the cost of living in Seattle. Is it low? I don't think so either.
Thanks for posting this, who knew that all public school salaries are public online for everyone to see! I found my district and I was surprised how well half the teachers are paid. Your numbers appear pretty good, I wouldn't complain making the average of those salaries. Now scb, what state do you live in? We can take a look at those numbers too.
I have a lot of experience in education and I feel that teachers are not underpaid. There are some teachers who probably deserve more, but on the whole my opinion is that they're paid about right.
Also, people need to remember that they're only work 75% as much as everyone else so you need to factor that in when evaluating comparative salaries.
Furthermore, it's ridiculous that teachers have unions these days. Do we know of any other "professional" occupation that has a union? (and even if we do, I am 100% against the concept of unions in the USA in this day and time)
Agreed. There are some great teachers who probably don't make what they're worth. Just like there are teachers out there that are overpaid what they're worth. And yeah, there's always that notion that they don't really work full-time with all those days off.
the education system is a failure in the US based strictly on performance and key metrics ... is it the fault of the teachers? the unions? the governmemt? ... i suspect like everything else - it's a little bit of everything ... the reality is that each interest puts the welfare of students second ... whether people want to admit it or not ...
and just like most programs run by a corporatized gov't - misuse of funds is rampant ... in order for an education system to work ... the welfare of the students must be the first and foremost priority ... until then - we can bicker all we want on salaries and appropriation of funds but those won't fix what is at the heart of the problem ...
Comments
quite a bit of your "aid" comes in the form of military sales ... which really means the US gives money to defence contractors based in the states to give to foreign countries ...
i want to stop donating monies to the educational systems of the same countries....and put those monies to our children.
i have sent my concerns to our congrossman.....i will post the response, if there is one.
it is a simple question, though.
why are we cutting our programs and social services, while funding other countries programs and social services?
I watched it last night, and I seriously don't know why you'd have a problem with this documetary, dude. It was excellent. Whatever your personal problems are with education, and I know you have serious issues, write your local congress person, like I already mentioned. Don't accuse us, writers on a debate board, that we don't understand you, because it seriously gets you nowhere. And I've read plenty about Michelle Rhee, and think that she did wonders for D.C. schools.
the documentary definitely emphasizes the union as a big problem ... and basically that there are a lot of stiff teachers ... i would have liked to seen more info on funding relative to each state and compare it with some places like south korea or norway ...
The unions totally hold education reform back. Because their interests are for the adults, not the students. Who's going to look out for the students' welfare? I didn't know that they toss around bad teachers to other districts because they'll never be fired, nor did I know about Rubber Rooms! It's a disgrace! I know many teachers who defend the union; it really is all about them, and not the kids. I know there are many excellent teachers out there, but the bad ones really let the kids down.
I couldn't agree less with that gross generalization. My mom is a teacher. My dad was a teacher. My grandparents were teachers. My aunt is a teacher. My best friend is a teacher. And all my teachers were teachers. And my experience is that, while there are a few bad apples in every profession, most teachers are selfless people who sacrifice greatly for the good of their students. I don't think it's in any way inappropriate for the people who arguably have the most important job there is to want to secure a living wage & decent retirement. It's a fucking shame that they are so undervalued that they need unions to help them do it - but they do. I really couldn't be more disgusted with your comment underlined above. :(
You didn't quote my entire post. There are some incredible teachers out there. 2 of my sisters, and my grandmother are (were) teachers. But the unions only help the adults. Long ago they were created to help teachers who were paid very low, because they were mostly women who society saw as not 'needing' to work, and also so college professors couldn't be fired due to political reasons. The unions were formed with good reason then. But they are now doing a horrible injustice to education, by keeping bad teachers employed. Have you even seen the documentary scb?
All you're doing is verifying that you both think that welfare of the teachers is more important than the education of the students... pretty sickening...
At a public school a Teacher has to be police officer/social worker/guidance counselor, etc. Not only that but after they do all that work the Schools don't support their decisions on discipline and a kid (who assulted my wife) got 1 day INS. ( in school suspension). The reason why I succeeded in school was because my Dad backed my teacher/school up. If I got in trouble at school I also got in trouble at home. He went to the parent teacher conferences to see what I need to work on. He made sure I did my homework before I played. Its amazing how good of a student an average person can become if their household holds education to the same standard that the teachers do. You only get out what you put in.
Are you kidding? The entire doc was about kids wanting a better education and their parents doing their best to get their kids into better schools! They knew they couldn't fix the failing schools so they took their chance with getting into schools that required a lottery or winning scores because there were only so many open spots, but the demand to get into those spots were overwhelming!
Public school teachers do not have the worst jobs because they now get paid so well, and have awesome schedules! It's gotten to the point that college students choose the profession because of "summers off", and not because they truly care about education. Yes, the kids assault teachers, that is society's problem, since liability issues prevent schools from taking disciplinary actions. That is a disgrace. Parents on the whole did back up teachers in our day, and now we have some sue-happy parents who explode when a teacher disciplines their kid. That's society for you, thank the parents who allow this to happen, and then wonder why teachers can't discipline.
I know how well teachers are paid in my state. I know all about the step raises they get multiple times a year. Don't tell me that they deserve the spiked incomes and tenure over a teaching a child well. Like I said before, it's about the kids, not the teachers! Funny how you don't address the problem of bad teachers continuing to teach. Do you even have any kids or did you enter this discussion because your wife is a teacher?!
To comment on that, although those countries do not approve the use of rBGH in products made in the their borders, they do allow many imports with to be brought in and sold in those countries.
Also, many of the colleges/university faculties are doing highly paid "side projects" for the same financial institutions that are crippling the US...the problem lies in the fact they do not find a conflict of interest in that at all. Seriously, get the doc Inside Job. The people in the doc are the real people who were watched it all go down first hand, politicians to professors. It's time to stand up and be counted people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P1oEbyQn7o
Hmm... Did you edit your post right after you posted it and after I had already hit "quote"? (I know posts don't show as edited if you edit them soon enough.) Because I don't remember seeing that last sentence & I'm pretty sure I didn't delete anything. :?
No, I haven't seen the documentary. It's in my Netflix queue but I haven't gotten to it.
But my post wasn't about the documentary; it was about your statement I underlined, which I found very offensive à la HeidiJam (since we're calling people by their former names).
I still think teachers need unions, especially as long as they are so undervalued & under compensated. Educators in my state have gotten across-the-board pay cuts for the past two or three years, so their salaries can be given to the state general fund, while there are still solvency issues with their pension fund - and it would have been worse had they not had union representation. Additionally, unions do work for the kids. Not only do they fight against cuts to the education system as a whole, but their work for decent teacher wages means kids get better teachers. Whether or not unions are responsible for the retention of every bad teacher in the country is debatable, but if that's the case then that specific problem should be fixed. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
I usually end up editing everything I type because I usually need to correct my grammar and yeah, I did add that sentence on, so it's understandable that you may have responded immediately and didn't catch it.
Funny, but you've known me for years... you're going to say that I'm someone else? Please. I've never changed my name and never intend to.
It's quite strange that you and Blockhead seem to think that teachers are undercompensated. Because they certainly aren't, at least in my state. Why don't you do some research and find out exactly how much teachers in your area are paid, before jumping to conclusions. You sound like you know what you're talking about, but unions don't allow the state to come in and slash salaries! That's what unions do - protect the employee from outside interference! So I can't believe what you say. Why don't you post a link to prove me wrong.
The bolded statement? Pure bullshit. Take a look at that docuentary. Ask students what their teachers are like. I assume that what you say is hearsay or from a teacher. Look up what tenure is all about. It's is a guarentee that once a teacher, you will never lose your job, no matter how badly you perform. And that's nothing new; that's typical union tactics. And that's how teachers unions absolutely fail the kids.
Oh, and do you even have any school-aged kids?
As for waiting for superman, just like anything else it is sponsorship. It is a friend of a friend of the guy from HCZ. While HCZ has done great things it is not the nat'l answer nor should it be the nat'l model.
Community schools would be a better choice.
Do you have any specifics on the budget cuts down there in the city? I found out tonight that the state cuts are larger for upstate districts especially rural (we're getting cut HARD). I'd love to know why this is so. We're losing a ton of programs. :( Teachers refuse to take a pay freeze, conveniently, adding to our distress.
http://lbloom.net/zse06.html
Is it high? I don't think so...considering the cost of living in Seattle. Is it low? I don't think so either.
so it is amazing to me that of all public employees in the world, teachers are attacked most often and that is who the GOP like to go after. They really should be the last people in line to talk about cutting salaries.
I posted this before, but maybe they should go after poor old Sean Duffy who only makes $174,000 (and he has to drive a used minivan!!!) a year as a Wisconsin rep, but has the nerve to attack teachers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAAtSVQyXZU
Okay, seriously.... What the hell are talking about???
First of all, I DIDN'T accuse you of changing your name, so please re-read my post before you get so defensive.
Secondly, I don't know what state you live in, but in the 5 states I've lived in, in which my mom & other family members have taught, teachers are grossly underpaid, so maybe YOU should try doing some fucking research before jumping to conclusions. You're the one who doesn't know what the fuck you're talking about if you're going to tell me the state didn't cut educators' salaries. Have you seen my paychecks?? Do I really have to post them for you before you believe I know how much money I fucking make?? :roll:
Third, I don't need to look up what tenure is all about. Not only do I already know what it's about, but it's irrelevant to the part of my post to which you were referring. I said unions support children by opposing education cuts in general, and because securing a living wage for teachers means more good teachers can afford to stick around. How is that possibly bullshit?? Your comment completely failed to address my point.
Fourth, what difference does it make whether I have school-aged children or not?? I spent 13 years of my life being a school-aged child! I know tons of people in all aspects of the education system. And I pay attention to what's going on in our schools. Are you actually suggesting (perhaps because you failed to address them) that my points are invalid just because I don't have children of my own who are currently on school? Please. Maybe you did used to be someone else after all; you're starting to sound an awful lot like Pandora. :roll:
Look, I don't know what state you live in where teachers are paid so well, but that doesn't change the fact that you don't have a fucking clue about the educational systems in all other states. So you can't sit there & tell me that just because you know of some supposedly well-paid teachers that the poorly-paid teachers I know of don't exist - or that I don't know what I'm talking about when I tell you what's going on where I live. That would be like me saying, "What do you mean it's not snowing where you live?? Well you need to do some research instead of jumping to conclusions and post some links before I believe you know what you're talking about, because it's snowing where I live, so therefore I know that it's snowing everywhere!"
Also, I don't know where you got this notion that the welfare of teachers & the welfare of students are mutually exclusive, but that kind of attitude is far more harmful to students than some tenured "bad" teachers will ever be.
Also, people need to remember that they're only work 75% as much as everyone else so you need to factor that in when evaluating comparative salaries.
Furthermore, it's ridiculous that teachers have unions these days. Do we know of any other "professional" occupation that has a union? (and even if we do, I am 100% against the concept of unions in the USA in this day and time)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
where's the smilie with the 'GOOMBA for PRESIDENT' sign :?: :!:
You've got your second vote here.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
There you go getting all personal and with the unnecessary f-bombs and insults. Ya know what? I'm not going to play your game, and I do, know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not going to discuss education cuts with someone who DOESN'T EVEN HAVE CHILDREN. It's clear what side you're on, and I refuse to waste my time with the likes of you, scb, any longer. See ya! But I will say this, watch the documentary!
:wave:
Agreed. There are some great teachers who probably don't make what they're worth. Just like there are teachers out there that are overpaid what they're worth. And yeah, there's always that notion that they don't really work full-time with all those days off.
the education system is a failure in the US based strictly on performance and key metrics ... is it the fault of the teachers? the unions? the governmemt? ... i suspect like everything else - it's a little bit of everything ... the reality is that each interest puts the welfare of students second ... whether people want to admit it or not ...
and just like most programs run by a corporatized gov't - misuse of funds is rampant ... in order for an education system to work ... the welfare of the students must be the first and foremost priority ... until then - we can bicker all we want on salaries and appropriation of funds but those won't fix what is at the heart of the problem ...