Union Busting in Wisconsin!!!

Thorns2010

Jasunmark wrote:

I'm admittedly a bit rusty on my geography. Isn't Ontario, Canada in Canada and not the US?

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All ... ers/Salary

According to that, Teachers in the US average about half of that. And now the government, with the help of Big Business and the Tea Baggers, is trying to do away with their pensions, social security and medicare.

In Canada, the people do care about each other. In the US, the national sport is now screwing other people out of whatever you can so you can get more for yourself.

According to that link, its the Median of teacher pay. Which, yes, it is often close to the average, but it is not the same thing as the average.

Not picking one side or the other of this argument, just pointing that out.

lukin2006

Jasunmark wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

No jurisdiction in the US? do you have proof?

Here in Ontario Canada teachers are paid extremely well, they got one of the best pensions in the world, 2 weeks off at christmas, a week off in march, 10 weeks in the summer and if your at the top of the pay scale roughly $80 000/year. That's good pay pay

I'm admittedly a bit rusty on my geography. Isn't Ontario, Canada in Canada and not the US?

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All ... ers/Salary

According to that, Teachers in the US average about half of that. And now the government, with the help of Big Business and the Tea Baggers, is trying to do away with their pensions, social security and medicare.

In Canada, the people do care about each other. In the US, the national sport is now screwing other people out of whatever you can so you can get more for yourself.

First of all, your original post didn't say US, that why I asked for clarification. If they don't like the pay they can move into other jobs.

As for Canadians caring for each other is laughable. We have many special interest groups pushing their agenda on the government. The teachers unions in Ontario are extremely powerful and have been pushing their agenda far to long. I've never seen the teachers union express concern for the many people who lost their jobs in the latest recession, the autoworker who gave up concessions to keep their jobs, or the whatever. But when the government brought up the subject of freezing wages to deal with a massive deficit then the grumbling began. Far as I'm concerned they either except a wage freeze or layoffs.

Prince Of Dorkness

Thorns2010 wrote:

According to that link, its the Median of teacher pay. Which, yes, it is often close to the average, but it is not the same thing as the average.

Not picking one side or the other of this argument, just pointing that out.

I Suppose that's true. There are very few places where teachers at public schools are making more than that. A teacher making much more than that is probably teaching at a private school.

Prince Of Dorkness

lukin2006 wrote:

As for Canadians caring for each other is laughable. We have many special interest groups pushing their agenda on the government.

Yeah, I used to think that when I lived in Toronto (for 18 years until 2005).

Now I know better.

Trust me... for the little spats that we got up into in Canada, Americans are FAR more extreme with their "I got mine, fuck the rest of you" attitudes.

When I moved down here and saw first hand the rather cold way that people treat each other in this country, I was shocked. It seems most people down here would rather let children starve in the street if it means they can have a second big screen TV.

lukin2006

Jasunmark wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

As for Canadians caring for each other is laughable. We have many special interest groups pushing their agenda on the government.

Yeah, I used to think that when I lived in Toronto (for 18 years until 2005).

Now I know better.

Trust me... for the little spats that we got up into in Canada, Americans are FAR more extreme with their "I got mine, fuck the rest of you" attitudes.

When I moved down here and saw first hand the rather cold way that people treat each other in this country, I was shocked. It seems most people down here would rather let children starve in the street if it means they can have a second big screen TV.

Believe me we are getting worse, maybe not to the extreme the Americans are, but we're getting there. When the autoworkers were forced to take huge concessions many people were happy to see that, I think some people took it personally when their car broke or something. Also people were delusional in thinking autoworkers were making piles of money. As for teachers unions here, I have never seen or heard them to come to the defense of others.

milarso

Jasunmark wrote:

Trust me... for the little spats that we got up into in Canada, Americans are FAR more extreme with their "I got mine, fuck the rest of you" attitudes.

Pretty harsh considering that Americans give more to charity (based on GDP) than any country on the planet. I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience here.

VINNY GOOMBA

Just out of curiosity, which private industries / companies still actually offer people a true pension? I'm not talking 401K stuff here... I'm talking about receiving checks in the mail at a large percentage of the employee's finishing salary until death after working at the same spot for 30 years? Does anyone know of any companies that still do this, because I don't know anyone working in the private sector that has this benefit available to them?

Once upon a time IBM offered such a program in its hey-day and now no longer, they stopped probably 20 years ago. My friend just got a job working for a utility company around here and they just stopped offering their employees this benefit-- he is NOT going to be receiving a pension-- they switched to a 401K-type program. The energy company is practically a merger of public and private with a virtual monopoly on its electric service, and THEY can't afford to offer this perk to their employees anymore.

In my eyes, a pension program in any form is unsustainable especially when it's being offered after only 20-30 years of work. It's a lovely idea, and I wish it could work, but it's just impossible to truly implement. The only people I know still receiving pensions are state and federal employees, because taxpayer dollars (collected, printed, or borrowed) money that is forcefully collected is used to pay for their pension programs.

I'm certainly not against labor unions, but I am against any benefits for state employees that really hardly exist in the private sector as well.

And as for all of my friends on the Train here with state pension funds with their names on it, I would plan on that future stream of income not being 100% there because of the pressure on it to collapse. Social Security is continually looted right in front of our eyes and I would expect no more honesty in any other state or federal pension program.

Yield98

patrickredeyes wrote:

It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.

Welcome to the Real World!!!

There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!

1st of all, in my opinion, that is a terrible argument. No matter how broke you are you can still give respect and dignity to taxpaying citizens. By refusing to negotiate and saying you are broke and nothing to give, you are not giving any respect or dignity which is shame, because it costs nothing and at an economic time like this, we should be giving extra of things that cost nothing.

2nd of all, in the district that I teach in, we already pay almost the %'s that the governor is asking for so this effects me very little in the pocketbook, but I am extremely upset anyway, because this has nothing to do with money. Again, it is about respect and dignity for those people who "grow" the future (teachers), clean up our messes (garbage collectors), clear the roads when we need them most (snow plows), take care of us when we are sick (nurses) and do a lot of little things that we all only appreciate when they are gone.

3rd - We have not had any "sick outs" in my district and I have been protesting on my own time. When schools have been canceled it is upsetting to hear parents mad about their days being ruined, but not worried about their children's education. If all of these complaining parents came to parent/teacher conferences our world would be such a better place. We are in the middle of conferences and I have seen 3 out of apx 125 students (all of them currently getting A's)

4th - The real world I live in has a wife who waitresses and has already been scaled back to 1/2 her hours and about a 1/3 of the money because other people are not going out. My world contains a master's degree and a base salary of 38K and total compensation of 52K. Everybody says if it is so bad, quit, but I say if we have it so good, become a teacher, but most people don't because teaching is not about the money, it is about the kids and the experiences that cannot be bought with money. In my real world, I live in a 64K house, have one car from 2000 (w/ 140k miles), one from 2002 (w/ 80k miles), a TV bought in 2001 for college and two TVs that were thrown out by other people. In the seven years of marriage we have take exotic family trips to the Minneapolis/St. Paul (twice), Wisconsin Dells (twice) and the Upper Penisula of Michigan. But I would not trade any of what I have for a different job, which brings me to #5

5th - The bottom line for me (and many others) is that this is not about money. This is about a quality profession and a quality education. When collective bargaining is gone, don't be surprised when your child is now in a class of 30 or 40 or more and does not get any on one on attention. Don't be surprised when quality teachers go to different professions and are replaced by new teachers on a regular basis. Don't be surprised when kids do nothing in the community or any "life experiences" because we are too busy drilling for the next standardized test. Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their rankings on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:
South Carolina-50
North Carolina-49
Georgia-48
Texas-47
Virginia-44

In 2010 Wisconsin ranked 2nd in combined ACT/SAT scores.

We need to stop comparing public/private sector. Private sector will always reward their best people because the bottom line for a business is $, but there is no way to measure a bottom line for schools when it comes to money, so you will see schools find ways to cut corners.

We need to realize this argument should be middle class vs upper class. The tax cut debate of December had the rich saying "I earned this and it is mine; making me pay more is socialism." Not that we are talking about a regressive tax on middle class wage earners we hear "time to pay your fair share" In the Eisenhower years, the highest tax rate was 90% percent and we had the "baby boomer" generation. During the early Clinton years, we raised taxes on the rich and we had the longest economic growth since Eisenhower and had a budget surplus by the end of his administration. Bush cut the taxes on the rich and we have since had the "great recession". In Wisconsin 2/3rds of corporations paid $0 in taxes last year and we have high unemployment rates. As soon as the middle class stops marching to the corporate drum, we can fix our economic problems and come together again as a unified American middle class. Please stop fighting your neighbor and please look to the people behind the gates of the gated communities.

PEACE and keep up the PEACEFUL protests

youngster

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Just out of curiosity, which private industries / companies still actually offer people a true pension? I'm not talking 401K stuff here... I'm talking about receiving checks in the mail at a large percentage of the employee's finishing salary until death after working at the same spot for 30 years? Does anyone know of any companies that still do this, because I don't know anyone working in the private sector that has this benefit available to them?

Once upon a time IBM offered such a program in its hey-day and now no longer, they stopped probably 20 years ago. My friend just got a job working for a utility company around here and they just stopped offering their employees this benefit-- he is NOT going to be receiving a pension-- they switched to a 401K-type program. The energy company is practically a merger of public and private with a virtual monopoly on its electric service, and THEY can't afford to offer this perk to their employees anymore.

In my eyes, a pension program in any form is unsustainable especially when it's being offered after only 20-30 years of work. It's a lovely idea, and I wish it could work, but it's just impossible to truly implement. The only people I know still receiving pensions are state and federal employees, because taxpayer dollars (collected, printed, or borrowed) money that is forcefully collected is used to pay for their pension programs.

I'm certainly not against labor unions, but I am against any benefits for state employees that really hardly exist in the private sector as well.

And as for all of my friends on the Train here with state pension funds with their names on it, I would plan on that future stream of income not being 100% there because of the pressure on it to collapse. Social Security is continually looted right in front of our eyes and I would expect no more honesty in any other state or federal pension program.

I am in a labor union here in Boston and we still have a standard pension program. Each employee contributes $5.50 per hour to the pension fund. If you have worked a "full" year (1600 hours) you get a full pension credit for the year. 1 credit is equal to $104 dollars per year. So if you work 30 years and get a full pension credit every year, your pension would be roughly 3,000/month when you retire. We all pay into this fund so that we can be taken care of when we retire. We have an elected official who is a member of our union who is a trustee of the fund. It is not in the stock market so will never lose large sums of money based on how the economy is fairing. We put a certain amount of our pay raise into this fund to ensure that it stays in the green. Last I heard at one of our meetings we have more people paying into the fund than the fund is paying out. So I guess that is the right track to be on.

unsung

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Just out of curiosity, which private industries / companies still actually offer people a true pension? I'm not talking 401K stuff here... I'm talking about receiving checks in the mail at a large percentage of the employee's finishing salary until death after working at the same spot for 30 years? Does anyone know of any companies that still do this, because I don't know anyone working in the private sector that has this benefit available to them?

Once upon a time IBM offered such a program in its hey-day and now no longer, they stopped probably 20 years ago. My friend just got a job working for a utility company around here and they just stopped offering their employees this benefit-- he is NOT going to be receiving a pension-- they switched to a 401K-type program. The energy company is practically a merger of public and private with a virtual monopoly on its electric service, and THEY can't afford to offer this perk to their employees anymore.

In my eyes, a pension program in any form is unsustainable especially when it's being offered after only 20-30 years of work. It's a lovely idea, and I wish it could work, but it's just impossible to truly implement. The only people I know still receiving pensions are state and federal employees, because taxpayer dollars (collected, printed, or borrowed) money that is forcefully collected is used to pay for their pension programs.

I'm certainly not against labor unions, but I am against any benefits for state employees that really hardly exist in the private sector as well.

And as for all of my friends on the Train here with state pension funds with their names on it, I would plan on that future stream of income not being 100% there because of the pressure on it to collapse. Social Security is continually looted right in front of our eyes and I would expect no more honesty in any other state or federal pension program.

Mine doesn't. I work for a nuclear power company that switched a few years ago. I had the choice of a penson or the cash balance and I chose the cash balance. I invest for myself and I don't need to take a chance on some pension drying up someday.

Either way the State of Illinois gives state employees a pension. The Dem Governor just raised the income tax 67% and is now borrowing $4B to pay for pensions. This state won't be the next Wisconsin because Dems are in charge but I'm sure the taxes are going to skyrocket to pay for these pensions. They need to change it now for new hires and give them 401k only.

Cosmo

unsung wrote:

Mine doesn't. I work for a nuclear power company that switched a few years ago. I had the choice of a penson or the cash balance and I chose the cash balance. I invest for myself and I don't need to take a chance on some pension drying up someday.

Either way the State of Illinois gives state employees a pension. The Dem Governor just raised the income tax 67% and is now borrowing $4B to pay for pensions. This state won't be the next Wisconsin because Dems are in charge but I'm sure the taxes are going to skyrocket to pay for these pensions. They need to change it now for new hires and give them 401k only.

...
Illinois, correct? Is this the tax increase you are talking about?
TRIBUNE UPDATE: Gov. Pat Quinn today acknowledged he plans to raise income taxes in the wake of a Chicago Tribune story that he is considering a 50 percent increase on individuals. He declined to confirm details in the Tribune report, which said he is looking at raising the personal income tax from 3 percent to 4.5 percent as well as increasing personal exemptions.
Ref: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... 2846.story
...
So, in reality... instead of paying 3 pennies per dollar... you are being asked to pay 4.5 pennies per dollar. Almost a WHOLE nickel!!!
Sounds like you guys haven't been paying for all of those services for a long, long time and the bill has been past due.

Prince Of Dorkness

lukin2006 wrote:

Believe me we are getting worse, maybe not to the extreme the Americans are, but we're getting there. When the autoworkers were forced to take huge concessions many people were happy to see that, I think some people took it personally when their car broke or something. Also people were delusional in thinking autoworkers were making piles of money. As for teachers unions here, I have never seen or heard them to come to the defense of others.

Yeah... I get that.. but down here in America, people seem to take an odd sense of joy at the misfortunes and pain of others. It's like... a bizarre sickness.

It's not enough to be straight and be against gay marriage, for instance.. no.. down here in America, they have to vote away the rights of a minority, have huge celebration rallies in the streets afterward... they then pass bills to make giving even health benefits to same sex couples illegal... they'll go out of their way to not only take away rights and throw a party, they'll continue to be mean and spiteful and try to find new ways to hurt people they don't like... I've never seen anything like that in Canada. Nothing close.

Prince Of Dorkness

milarso wrote:

Pretty harsh considering that Americans give more to charity (based on GDP) than any country on the planet. I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience here.

Really?

I can't find anything to support that statement.

This list..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo ... _countries

Puts the US at the top in dollar amount although when it's the amount of money they give as a percentage of their gross national income we fall to 19th.

And yeah... when the whole country seems to really get a kick out of the pain and suffering of others... I've had a rather bad experience down here.

milarso

Jasunmark wrote:

Really?

I can't find anything to support that statement.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/06/americans-are-most-generous-people-in.html

markin ball

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Just out of curiosity, which private industries / companies still actually offer people a true pension? I'm not talking 401K stuff here... I'm talking about receiving checks in the mail at a large percentage of the employee's finishing salary until death after working at the same spot for 30 years? Does anyone know of any companies that still do this, because I don't know anyone working in the private sector that has this benefit available to them?

Once upon a time IBM offered such a program in its hey-day and now no longer, they stopped probably 20 years ago. My friend just got a job working for a utility company around here and they just stopped offering their employees this benefit-- he is NOT going to be receiving a pension-- they switched to a 401K-type program. The energy company is practically a merger of public and private with a virtual monopoly on its electric service, and THEY can't afford to offer this perk to their employees anymore.

In my eyes, a pension program in any form is unsustainable especially when it's being offered after only 20-30 years of work. It's a lovely idea, and I wish it could work, but it's just impossible to truly implement. The only people I know still receiving pensions are state and federal employees, because taxpayer dollars (collected, printed, or borrowed) money that is forcefully collected is used to pay for their pension programs.

I'm certainly not against labor unions, but I am against any benefits for state employees that really hardly exist in the private sector as well.

And as for all of my friends on the Train here with state pension funds with their names on it, I would plan on that future stream of income not being 100% there because of the pressure on it to collapse. Social Security is continually looted right in front of our eyes and I would expect no more honesty in any other state or federal pension program.

BofA.

Prince Of Dorkness

milarso wrote:

Jasunmark wrote:

Really?

I can't find anything to support that statement.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/06/americans-are-most-generous-people-in.html

Sadly... that's not only 4 years out of date, it's skewed by huge donations by billionaires to the arts. Read the articles that he's linking to.. not just the blog itself.

The Average American isn't a billionaire.

Sorry but my experience has been that a majority of Americans get a big kick out of making the lives of other more miserable.

Jason P

Jasunmark wrote:

Sadly... that's not only 4 years out of date, it's skewed by huge donations by billionaires to the arts. Read the articles that he's linking to.. not just the blog itself.

The Average American isn't a billionaire.

Sorry but my experience has been that a majority of Americans get a big kick out of making the lives of other more miserable.

If you location is still current (hollywood), it may be over-influencing your view of American generosity. I've lived near L.A. and worked in L.A. and it is by far one of the most disconnected towns I've ever been in. The endless sprawl, strip malls, and horrible traffic are part of it but I also think that the high number of transplants has contributed to the demise of a "community". L.A. is also a very trendy city which means people are focused on the latest style, exotic cars, and trendy restaurants / nightclubs on their search for individualality. It's defiantly a "me" town.

At least that was my experience around L.A. People seem to be a lot more friendly and caring elsewhere.

81

Cosmo wrote:

unsung wrote:

Mine doesn't. I work for a nuclear power company that switched a few years ago. I had the choice of a penson or the cash balance and I chose the cash balance. I invest for myself and I don't need to take a chance on some pension drying up someday.

Either way the State of Illinois gives state employees a pension. The Dem Governor just raised the income tax 67% and is now borrowing $4B to pay for pensions. This state won't be the next Wisconsin because Dems are in charge but I'm sure the taxes are going to skyrocket to pay for these pensions. They need to change it now for new hires and give them 401k only.

...
Illinois, correct? Is this the tax increase you are talking about?
TRIBUNE UPDATE: Gov. Pat Quinn today acknowledged he plans to raise income taxes in the wake of a Chicago Tribune story that he is considering a 50 percent increase on individuals. He declined to confirm details in the Tribune report, which said he is looking at raising the personal income tax from 3 percent to 4.5 percent as well as increasing personal exemptions.
Ref: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... 2846.story
...
So, in reality... instead of paying 3 pennies per dollar... you are being asked to pay 4.5 pennies per dollar. Almost a WHOLE nickel!!!
Sounds like you guys haven't been paying for all of those services for a long, long time and the bill has been past due.

it went from 3% to 5% :x you shouldn't quote articles that are 2 years old and full of maybe

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/1 ... 07801.html

The plan's supporters warned that rising pension and health care costs probably will eat up all the spending allowed by the caps, forcing cuts in other areas of government.

add on to that the higest sales tax around.

property taxes that just keep going up.

corruption that just doesn't end. IL sucks, but if you give me $50K, i'll say something different.

Prince Of Dorkness

Jason P wrote:

People seem to be a lot more friendly and caring elsewhere.

Hm.

Really?

Because so far this year, newly-elected Republicans have fallen all over themselves to pass bills which are designed to just be mean to gay families, take away the protections of women and children and the working poor, take away the pensions and safety nets of the elderly and just destroy anyone who isn't white, Christian and heterosexual.

Sorry if our clothes and cars here in LA upset you so much.

Jason P

Jasunmark wrote:

Jason P wrote:

People seem to be a lot more friendly and caring elsewhere.

Hm.

Really?

Because so far this year, newly-elected Republicans have fallen all over themselves to pass bills which are designed to just be mean to gay families, take away the protections of women and children and the working poor, take away the pensions and safety nets of the elderly and just destroy anyone who isn't white, Christian and heterosexual.

Sorry if our clothes and cars here in LA upset you so much.

You count politicians as people? No wonder you are jaded. Democrats and Republicans care nothing about you or me. They only care about votes and staying in power.