I work with a man whose wife is a teacher and they vacation out out the country (Alaska, Italy...) twice a year. If they can retire at 55 that is part of the salary along with all holidays off. Here in my town the city council members get a pension for only four years on the council and it's concidered part time. CRAZY!
There is no jurisdiction where teachers in a public school get paid that well. There's probably another source of income of which you're unaware (and is none of your business). Either that or she teaches at a private school. Or is a university professor with a doctorate and writes books. I come from a family of teachers, some high school and some university and none of them make much.
Yes, some people on the town council are over paid and get too many perks... but those people probably aren'y in a union. So that's just elected officials giving themselves too much. You have the power to vote those people out.
I'm sorry to say that life just isn't that cut and dry.
finally, patrickredeyes, state employees are paying just as much of their own salaries (taxes) as you are. my wife's perfect life (she's a teacher) puts us in a 60-year-old, 1200-square-foot house that is in need of many repairs. we, along with our 9-month-old son, live within our means, but never plan on being wealthy - it's just not possible given the profession. we don't have any of the toys (boats, snowmobiles) that our friends have. lower middle class is as good as we'll get. we were planning a vacation out east this summer, driving of course, but we'll now probably have to put that off for at least a year. hopefully, i'll be able to afford the trip to my backyard to see pearl jam if they play alpine this year. i may be forced to sell my vinyl collection and yellow ten to afford it.
State employees have not been paying the same as the rest of Wisconsin workers have for yrs. With this bill they finally will and it's only fair.
You mean to tell me your wife doesn't have a part time job in the summer. All the teachers I know have them. Like I said I wish I had a job where I knew I would be getting a great pension when I retire. This surplus of money is b.s. we don't have anymore to give. The state is broke and I don't want to see taxes go up anymore or more jobs lost. I'm getting sick of these teachers crying like they have lost everything when in fact they have not lost anything.
I work with a man whose wife is a teacher and they vacation out out the country (Alaska, Italy...) twice a year. If they can retire at 55 that is part of the salary along with all holidays off. Here in my town the city council members get a pension for only four years on the council and it's concidered part time. CRAZY!
There is no jurisdiction where teachers in a public school get paid that well. There's probably another source of income of which you're unaware (and is none of your business). Either that or she teaches at a private school. Or is a university professor with a doctorate and writes books. I come from a family of teachers, some high school and some university and none of them make much.
Yes, some people on the town council are over paid and get too many perks... but those people probably aren'y in a union. So that's just elected officials giving themselves too much. You have the power to vote those people out.
I'm sorry to say that life just isn't that cut and dry.
It is obvious that teachers are underpaid, and since they assumingly had to go thru more education/training then most other union members employed by cities and states, I think they are more justified in having a union fighting for them. Of any government employee, teachers seem to be the only ones who are truly paid much less then their services are really worth.
FYI, teachers do get a few tax benefits. In some states, they do not pay FICA tax (a savings of 4.2% of their salary, it used to be 6.2%) nor do they pay state disability insurance tax (1.1% in California). On a $40,000 salary, this is a savings of $2,120. Teachers can also deduct, and derive full benefit, of classroom expenses they incur on their own.
finally, patrickredeyes, state employees are paying just as much of their own salaries (taxes) as you are. my wife's perfect life (she's a teacher) puts us in a 60-year-old, 1200-square-foot house that is in need of many repairs. we, along with our 9-month-old son, live within our means, but never plan on being wealthy - it's just not possible given the profession. we don't have any of the toys (boats, snowmobiles) that our friends have. lower middle class is as good as we'll get. we were planning a vacation out east this summer, driving of course, but we'll now probably have to put that off for at least a year. hopefully, i'll be able to afford the trip to my backyard to see pearl jam if they play alpine this year. i may be forced to sell my vinyl collection and yellow ten to afford it.
State employees have not been paying the same as the rest of Wisconsin workers have for yrs. With this bill they finally will and it's only fair.
You mean to tell me your wife doesn't have a part time job in the summer. All the teachers I know have them. Like I said I wish I had a job where I knew I would be getting a great pension when I retire. This surplus of money is b.s. we don't have anymore to give. The state is broke and I don't want to see taxes go up anymore or more jobs lost. I'm getting sick of these teachers crying like they have lost everything when in fact they have not lost anything.
I hope you can make it to Alpine.
are you trying to say that state employees do not pay taxes like everyone else? they do, at the same rates as everyone. therefore, they have been paying the same. when cuts to wages and benefits are made in the private sector, that benefits the bottom line of the employer and has nothing to do with balancing the state budget. so when this passes, i want to know what the private sector is going to do to help reduce this deficit. this part of the budget only accounts for 10 percent of the 3.6 billion. why does this have to pass before walker reveals the other 90 percent? everyone, including public workers again, will get hosed.
and no, my wife does not have a summer job. she used to teach summer school, but now would rather spend time with our son. and the time away from school allows her to regain some of her sanity. teaching is not an easy job. there are a lot of messed up kids, and worse - parents - to deal with. most people would not tolerate it for the compensation they receive. if is is so great, why did you not become a teacher?
I work with a man whose wife is a teacher and they vacation out out the country (Alaska, Italy...) twice a year. If they can retire at 55 that is part of the salary along with all holidays off. Here in my town the city council members get a pension for only four years on the council and it's concidered part time. CRAZY!
There is no jurisdiction where teachers in a public school get paid that well. There's probably another source of income of which you're unaware (and is none of your business). Either that or she teaches at a private school. Or is a university professor with a doctorate and writes books. I come from a family of teachers, some high school and some university and none of them make much.
Yes, some people on the town council are over paid and get too many perks... but those people probably aren'y in a union. So that's just elected officials giving themselves too much. You have the power to vote those people out.
I'm sorry to say that life just isn't that cut and dry.
I know these people very well ...her husband is in retail...stepped down from management years ago...They save for these vacations. They don't have a six digit income.....but you don't have to to have a life....
Now I do feel teachers should have collective bargaining options....but raises or more benifits, not at this time when there is no money....
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
I know these people very well ...her husband is in retail...stepped down from management years ago...They save for these vacations. They don't have a six digit income.....but you don't have to to have a life....
Now I do feel teachers should have collective bargaining options....but raises or more benifits, not at this time when there is no money....
Well and that's the big lie... this country has LOTS of money.
Plenty.
The governor of Wisconsin intentionally created this problem by taking a surplus that the state had... giving HUGE tax breaks to big corporations and then claiming that the state was broke. He did this because conservatives WANT to create these catastrophes that make people react in extreme, knee-jerk ways.
HE wanted to create this union-busting idea and to do that, he had to make the state broke first.
Why do you think that in a time that Millionaires like Sarah Palin are telling teachers that they have to "sacrifice in times like this" that we're giving Oprah Winfrey and Steve Jobs and Bill Gates 50 million dollars in tax cuts? It's to bankrupt the country so billionaires can gut medicare, social security and any social safety net?
You have billionaires bussing their staff to rallies where people demonstrate to lower taxes on oil companies. That doesn't strike you as odd? Really?
You have Tea Baggers calling radio shows saying "we have to do away with ENTITLEMENTS" but when you ask them specifically which ones... they start to sputter... they don't really know what that means. Kinda like the people who accuse our corporatist president of being a "socialist."
And medicare and Social Security aren't "entitlements" at all.. they're things we've all paid for.
If you pay for something and then ask for it at the grocery store, would you expect the cashier to yell at you that you were asking for an entitlement? Would you expect to be called a "socialist?" Then why are we doing these things to our senior citizens who've paid into these programs?
And finally... why do you think that out of the blue, the word "SOCIALIST" seems to have suddenly become such a terrifying thing even though most don't even know it's definition? Well... it's easy to take "socialist" and say that it extends to things like "social security."
and by the way...
I'm not saying that September 11th was an inside job but it sure was a convenient way to get Americans, people who used to value their privacy, to start begging the government to spy on them.
I know these people very well ...her husband is in retail...stepped down from management years ago...They save for these vacations. They don't have a six digit income.....but you don't have to to have a life....
Now I do feel teachers should have collective bargaining options....but raises or more benifits, not at this time when there is no money....
Well and that's the big lie... this country has LOTS of money.
Plenty.
The governor of Wisconsin intentionally created this problem by taking a surplus that the state had... giving HUGE tax breaks to big corporations and then claiming that the state was broke. He did this because conservatives WANT to create these catastrophes that make people react in extreme, knee-jerk ways.
HE wanted to create this union-busting idea and to do that, he had to make the state broke first.
Why do you think that in a time that Millionaires like Sarah Palin are telling teachers that they have to "sacrifice in times like this" that we're giving Oprah Winfrey and Steve Jobs and Bill Gates 50 million dollars in tax cuts? It's to bankrupt the country so billionaires can gut medicare, social security and any social safety net?
You have billionaires bussing their staff to rallies where people demonstrate to lower taxes on oil companies. That doesn't strike you as odd? Really?
You have Tea Baggers calling radio shows saying "we have to do away with ENTITLEMENTS" but when you ask them specifically which ones... they start to sputter... they don't really know what that means. Kinda like the people who accuse our corporatist president of being a "socialist."
And medicare and Social Security aren't "entitlements" at all.. they're things we've all paid for.
If you pay for something and then ask for it at the grocery store, would you expect the cashier to yell at you that you were asking for an entitlement? Would you expect to be called a "socialist?" Then why are we doing these things to our senior citizens who've paid into these programs?
And finally... why do you think that out of the blue, the word "SOCIALIST" seems to have suddenly become such a terrifying thing even though most don't even know it's definition? Well... it's easy to take "socialist" and say that it extends to things like "social security."
and by the way...
I'm not saying that September 11th was an inside job but it sure was a convenient way to get Americans, people who used to value their privacy, to start begging the government to spy on them.
Fantastic post, Jasunmark. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I work with a man whose wife is a teacher and they vacation out out the country (Alaska, Italy...) twice a year. If they can retire at 55 that is part of the salary along with all holidays off. Here in my town the city council members get a pension for only four years on the council and it's concidered part time. CRAZY!
There is no jurisdiction where teachers in a public school get paid that well. There's probably another source of income of which you're unaware (and is none of your business). Either that or she teaches at a private school. Or is a university professor with a doctorate and writes books. I come from a family of teachers, some high school and some university and none of them make much.
Yes, some people on the town council are over paid and get too many perks... but those people probably aren'y in a union. So that's just elected officials giving themselves too much. You have the power to vote those people out.
I'm sorry to say that life just isn't that cut and dry.
?
No jurisdiction in the US? do you have proof?
Here in Ontario Canada teachers are paid extremely well, they got one of the best pensions in the world, 2 weeks off at christmas, a week off in march, 10 weeks in the summer and if your at the top of the pay scale roughly $80 000/year. That's good pay pay
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Here in Ontario Canada teachers are paid extremely well, they got one of the best pensions in the world, 2 weeks off at christmas, a week off in march, 10 weeks in the summer and if your at the top of the pay scale roughly $80 000/year. That's good pay pay
I'm admittedly a bit rusty on my geography. Isn't Ontario, Canada in Canada and not the US?
According to that, Teachers in the US average about half of that. And now the government, with the help of Big Business and the Tea Baggers, is trying to do away with their pensions, social security and medicare.
In Canada, the people do care about each other. In the US, the national sport is now screwing other people out of whatever you can so you can get more for yourself.
The teachers are upset cause this upsets their perfect lives. And yes I said perfect lives.....three months off in the summer and getting paid for it along with other paid days off during the year. Ohh and I wish I had a job where I knew once I retire at the young age of 55 I can get a nice pension for the rest of my life. And what's that you say the only thing I have to do in order to get that is pay a small amount towards it. Well sign me up for that yes please.
All that Walker is asking is for them to pay their share like the rest of us. It's only fair and about time.
You realize that pensions are forms of deferred payment for work already accomplished, right?
So taking them away is literally stealing money from people who have already earned it, right? That's "only fair" to you?
If you are offered a job with a great retirement and benefits package, would you think it's fair that you lose it because some other guy is upset with his station in life compared to yours?
If you're mad that people get better benefits than you, and you feel that public money shouldn't be allocated the way it is, perhaps you should direct your anger toward those who offered the jobs and the benefits packages, not those receiving them.
"The dude abides. I don't know about you, but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' her easy for all us sinners."
According to that, Teachers in the US average about half of that. And now the government, with the help of Big Business and the Tea Baggers, is trying to do away with their pensions, social security and medicare.
In Canada, the people do care about each other. In the US, the national sport is now screwing other people out of whatever you can so you can get more for yourself.
According to that link, its the Median of teacher pay. Which, yes, it is often close to the average, but it is not the same thing as the average.
Not picking one side or the other of this argument, just pointing that out.
Here in Ontario Canada teachers are paid extremely well, they got one of the best pensions in the world, 2 weeks off at christmas, a week off in march, 10 weeks in the summer and if your at the top of the pay scale roughly $80 000/year. That's good pay pay
I'm admittedly a bit rusty on my geography. Isn't Ontario, Canada in Canada and not the US?
According to that, Teachers in the US average about half of that. And now the government, with the help of Big Business and the Tea Baggers, is trying to do away with their pensions, social security and medicare.
In Canada, the people do care about each other. In the US, the national sport is now screwing other people out of whatever you can so you can get more for yourself.
First of all, your original post didn't say US, that why I asked for clarification. If they don't like the pay they can move into other jobs.
As for Canadians caring for each other is laughable. We have many special interest groups pushing their agenda on the government. The teachers unions in Ontario are extremely powerful and have been pushing their agenda far to long. I've never seen the teachers union express concern for the many people who lost their jobs in the latest recession, the autoworker who gave up concessions to keep their jobs, or the whatever. But when the government brought up the subject of freezing wages to deal with a massive deficit then the grumbling began. Far as I'm concerned they either except a wage freeze or layoffs.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
According to that link, its the Median of teacher pay. Which, yes, it is often close to the average, but it is not the same thing as the average.
Not picking one side or the other of this argument, just pointing that out.
I Suppose that's true. There are very few places where teachers at public schools are making more than that. A teacher making much more than that is probably teaching at a private school.
As for Canadians caring for each other is laughable. We have many special interest groups pushing their agenda on the government.
Yeah, I used to think that when I lived in Toronto (for 18 years until 2005).
Now I know better.
Trust me... for the little spats that we got up into in Canada, Americans are FAR more extreme with their "I got mine, fuck the rest of you" attitudes.
When I moved down here and saw first hand the rather cold way that people treat each other in this country, I was shocked. It seems most people down here would rather let children starve in the street if it means they can have a second big screen TV.
As for Canadians caring for each other is laughable. We have many special interest groups pushing their agenda on the government.
Yeah, I used to think that when I lived in Toronto (for 18 years until 2005).
Now I know better.
Trust me... for the little spats that we got up into in Canada, Americans are FAR more extreme with their "I got mine, fuck the rest of you" attitudes.
When I moved down here and saw first hand the rather cold way that people treat each other in this country, I was shocked. It seems most people down here would rather let children starve in the street if it means they can have a second big screen TV.
Believe me we are getting worse, maybe not to the extreme the Americans are, but we're getting there. When the autoworkers were forced to take huge concessions many people were happy to see that, I think some people took it personally when their car broke or something. Also people were delusional in thinking autoworkers were making piles of money. As for teachers unions here, I have never seen or heard them to come to the defense of others.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Trust me... for the little spats that we got up into in Canada, Americans are FAR more extreme with their "I got mine, fuck the rest of you" attitudes.
Pretty harsh considering that Americans give more to charity (based on GDP) than any country on the planet. I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience here.
"The dude abides. I don't know about you, but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' her easy for all us sinners."
Just out of curiosity, which private industries / companies still actually offer people a true pension? I'm not talking 401K stuff here... I'm talking about receiving checks in the mail at a large percentage of the employee's finishing salary until death after working at the same spot for 30 years? Does anyone know of any companies that still do this, because I don't know anyone working in the private sector that has this benefit available to them?
Once upon a time IBM offered such a program in its hey-day and now no longer, they stopped probably 20 years ago. My friend just got a job working for a utility company around here and they just stopped offering their employees this benefit-- he is NOT going to be receiving a pension-- they switched to a 401K-type program. The energy company is practically a merger of public and private with a virtual monopoly on its electric service, and THEY can't afford to offer this perk to their employees anymore.
In my eyes, a pension program in any form is unsustainable especially when it's being offered after only 20-30 years of work. It's a lovely idea, and I wish it could work, but it's just impossible to truly implement. The only people I know still receiving pensions are state and federal employees, because taxpayer dollars (collected, printed, or borrowed) money that is forcefully collected is used to pay for their pension programs.
I'm certainly not against labor unions, but I am against any benefits for state employees that really hardly exist in the private sector as well.
And as for all of my friends on the Train here with state pension funds with their names on it, I would plan on that future stream of income not being 100% there because of the pressure on it to collapse. Social Security is continually looted right in front of our eyes and I would expect no more honesty in any other state or federal pension program.
It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.
Welcome to the Real World!!!
There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!
1st of all, in my opinion, that is a terrible argument. No matter how broke you are you can still give respect and dignity to taxpaying citizens. By refusing to negotiate and saying you are broke and nothing to give, you are not giving any respect or dignity which is shame, because it costs nothing and at an economic time like this, we should be giving extra of things that cost nothing.
2nd of all, in the district that I teach in, we already pay almost the %'s that the governor is asking for so this effects me very little in the pocketbook, but I am extremely upset anyway, because this has nothing to do with money. Again, it is about respect and dignity for those people who "grow" the future (teachers), clean up our messes (garbage collectors), clear the roads when we need them most (snow plows), take care of us when we are sick (nurses) and do a lot of little things that we all only appreciate when they are gone.
3rd - We have not had any "sick outs" in my district and I have been protesting on my own time. When schools have been canceled it is upsetting to hear parents mad about their days being ruined, but not worried about their children's education. If all of these complaining parents came to parent/teacher conferences our world would be such a better place. We are in the middle of conferences and I have seen 3 out of apx 125 students (all of them currently getting A's)
4th - The real world I live in has a wife who waitresses and has already been scaled back to 1/2 her hours and about a 1/3 of the money because other people are not going out. My world contains a master's degree and a base salary of 38K and total compensation of 52K. Everybody says if it is so bad, quit, but I say if we have it so good, become a teacher, but most people don't because teaching is not about the money, it is about the kids and the experiences that cannot be bought with money. In my real world, I live in a 64K house, have one car from 2000 (w/ 140k miles), one from 2002 (w/ 80k miles), a TV bought in 2001 for college and two TVs that were thrown out by other people. In the seven years of marriage we have take exotic family trips to the Minneapolis/St. Paul (twice), Wisconsin Dells (twice) and the Upper Penisula of Michigan. But I would not trade any of what I have for a different job, which brings me to #5
5th - The bottom line for me (and many others) is that this is not about money. This is about a quality profession and a quality education. When collective bargaining is gone, don't be surprised when your child is now in a class of 30 or 40 or more and does not get any on one on attention. Don't be surprised when quality teachers go to different professions and are replaced by new teachers on a regular basis. Don't be surprised when kids do nothing in the community or any "life experiences" because we are too busy drilling for the next standardized test. Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their rankings on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:
South Carolina-50
North Carolina-49
Georgia-48
Texas-47
Virginia-44
In 2010 Wisconsin ranked 2nd in combined ACT/SAT scores.
We need to stop comparing public/private sector. Private sector will always reward their best people because the bottom line for a business is $, but there is no way to measure a bottom line for schools when it comes to money, so you will see schools find ways to cut corners.
We need to realize this argument should be middle class vs upper class. The tax cut debate of December had the rich saying "I earned this and it is mine; making me pay more is socialism." Not that we are talking about a regressive tax on middle class wage earners we hear "time to pay your fair share" In the Eisenhower years, the highest tax rate was 90% percent and we had the "baby boomer" generation. During the early Clinton years, we raised taxes on the rich and we had the longest economic growth since Eisenhower and had a budget surplus by the end of his administration. Bush cut the taxes on the rich and we have since had the "great recession". In Wisconsin 2/3rds of corporations paid $0 in taxes last year and we have high unemployment rates. As soon as the middle class stops marching to the corporate drum, we can fix our economic problems and come together again as a unified American middle class. Please stop fighting your neighbor and please look to the people behind the gates of the gated communities.
PEACE and keep up the PEACEFUL protests
Peace, Love, Pearl Jam
Alpine 98,00,03 TFC 99, Chicago 00,03,09(2X),23(2X) St. Louis 03, Champagne 03, St. Paul 03,06(2X),14,23(2X), Noblesville 03, Toledo 04, Grand Rapids 04,06, Thunder Bay 05, Cleveland 06, Lolla 07, Roo 08, PJ20 X2, Wrigley 13 & 16, Portland/Spokane/Seattle 13, Milwaukee 14, Fenway 18(2X),24(2X), Quebec City 22, Ottawa 22, MSG 24, Philly 24(2X), Auckland 24, Gold Coast 24
Just out of curiosity, which private industries / companies still actually offer people a true pension? I'm not talking 401K stuff here... I'm talking about receiving checks in the mail at a large percentage of the employee's finishing salary until death after working at the same spot for 30 years? Does anyone know of any companies that still do this, because I don't know anyone working in the private sector that has this benefit available to them?
Once upon a time IBM offered such a program in its hey-day and now no longer, they stopped probably 20 years ago. My friend just got a job working for a utility company around here and they just stopped offering their employees this benefit-- he is NOT going to be receiving a pension-- they switched to a 401K-type program. The energy company is practically a merger of public and private with a virtual monopoly on its electric service, and THEY can't afford to offer this perk to their employees anymore.
In my eyes, a pension program in any form is unsustainable especially when it's being offered after only 20-30 years of work. It's a lovely idea, and I wish it could work, but it's just impossible to truly implement. The only people I know still receiving pensions are state and federal employees, because taxpayer dollars (collected, printed, or borrowed) money that is forcefully collected is used to pay for their pension programs.
I'm certainly not against labor unions, but I am against any benefits for state employees that really hardly exist in the private sector as well.
And as for all of my friends on the Train here with state pension funds with their names on it, I would plan on that future stream of income not being 100% there because of the pressure on it to collapse. Social Security is continually looted right in front of our eyes and I would expect no more honesty in any other state or federal pension program.
I am in a labor union here in Boston and we still have a standard pension program. Each employee contributes $5.50 per hour to the pension fund. If you have worked a "full" year (1600 hours) you get a full pension credit for the year. 1 credit is equal to $104 dollars per year. So if you work 30 years and get a full pension credit every year, your pension would be roughly 3,000/month when you retire. We all pay into this fund so that we can be taken care of when we retire. We have an elected official who is a member of our union who is a trustee of the fund. It is not in the stock market so will never lose large sums of money based on how the economy is fairing. We put a certain amount of our pay raise into this fund to ensure that it stays in the green. Last I heard at one of our meetings we have more people paying into the fund than the fund is paying out. So I guess that is the right track to be on.
Just out of curiosity, which private industries / companies still actually offer people a true pension? I'm not talking 401K stuff here... I'm talking about receiving checks in the mail at a large percentage of the employee's finishing salary until death after working at the same spot for 30 years? Does anyone know of any companies that still do this, because I don't know anyone working in the private sector that has this benefit available to them?
Once upon a time IBM offered such a program in its hey-day and now no longer, they stopped probably 20 years ago. My friend just got a job working for a utility company around here and they just stopped offering their employees this benefit-- he is NOT going to be receiving a pension-- they switched to a 401K-type program. The energy company is practically a merger of public and private with a virtual monopoly on its electric service, and THEY can't afford to offer this perk to their employees anymore.
In my eyes, a pension program in any form is unsustainable especially when it's being offered after only 20-30 years of work. It's a lovely idea, and I wish it could work, but it's just impossible to truly implement. The only people I know still receiving pensions are state and federal employees, because taxpayer dollars (collected, printed, or borrowed) money that is forcefully collected is used to pay for their pension programs.
I'm certainly not against labor unions, but I am against any benefits for state employees that really hardly exist in the private sector as well.
And as for all of my friends on the Train here with state pension funds with their names on it, I would plan on that future stream of income not being 100% there because of the pressure on it to collapse. Social Security is continually looted right in front of our eyes and I would expect no more honesty in any other state or federal pension program.
Mine doesn't. I work for a nuclear power company that switched a few years ago. I had the choice of a penson or the cash balance and I chose the cash balance. I invest for myself and I don't need to take a chance on some pension drying up someday.
Either way the State of Illinois gives state employees a pension. The Dem Governor just raised the income tax 67% and is now borrowing $4B to pay for pensions. This state won't be the next Wisconsin because Dems are in charge but I'm sure the taxes are going to skyrocket to pay for these pensions. They need to change it now for new hires and give them 401k only.
Mine doesn't. I work for a nuclear power company that switched a few years ago. I had the choice of a penson or the cash balance and I chose the cash balance. I invest for myself and I don't need to take a chance on some pension drying up someday.
Either way the State of Illinois gives state employees a pension. The Dem Governor just raised the income tax 67% and is now borrowing $4B to pay for pensions. This state won't be the next Wisconsin because Dems are in charge but I'm sure the taxes are going to skyrocket to pay for these pensions. They need to change it now for new hires and give them 401k only.
...
Illinois, correct? Is this the tax increase you are talking about? TRIBUNE UPDATE: Gov. Pat Quinn today acknowledged he plans to raise income taxes in the wake of a Chicago Tribune story that he is considering a 50 percent increase on individuals. He declined to confirm details in the Tribune report, which said he is looking at raising the personal income tax from 3 percent to 4.5 percent as well as increasing personal exemptions.
Ref: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... 2846.story
...
So, in reality... instead of paying 3 pennies per dollar... you are being asked to pay 4.5 pennies per dollar. Almost a WHOLE nickel!!!
Sounds like you guys haven't been paying for all of those services for a long, long time and the bill has been past due.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Believe me we are getting worse, maybe not to the extreme the Americans are, but we're getting there. When the autoworkers were forced to take huge concessions many people were happy to see that, I think some people took it personally when their car broke or something. Also people were delusional in thinking autoworkers were making piles of money. As for teachers unions here, I have never seen or heard them to come to the defense of others.
Yeah... I get that.. but down here in America, people seem to take an odd sense of joy at the misfortunes and pain of others. It's like... a bizarre sickness.
It's not enough to be straight and be against gay marriage, for instance.. no.. down here in America, they have to vote away the rights of a minority, have huge celebration rallies in the streets afterward... they then pass bills to make giving even health benefits to same sex couples illegal... they'll go out of their way to not only take away rights and throw a party, they'll continue to be mean and spiteful and try to find new ways to hurt people they don't like... I've never seen anything like that in Canada. Nothing close.
Pretty harsh considering that Americans give more to charity (based on GDP) than any country on the planet. I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience here.
Puts the US at the top in dollar amount although when it's the amount of money they give as a percentage of their gross national income we fall to 19th.
And yeah... when the whole country seems to really get a kick out of the pain and suffering of others... I've had a rather bad experience down here.
Just out of curiosity, which private industries / companies still actually offer people a true pension? I'm not talking 401K stuff here... I'm talking about receiving checks in the mail at a large percentage of the employee's finishing salary until death after working at the same spot for 30 years? Does anyone know of any companies that still do this, because I don't know anyone working in the private sector that has this benefit available to them?
Once upon a time IBM offered such a program in its hey-day and now no longer, they stopped probably 20 years ago. My friend just got a job working for a utility company around here and they just stopped offering their employees this benefit-- he is NOT going to be receiving a pension-- they switched to a 401K-type program. The energy company is practically a merger of public and private with a virtual monopoly on its electric service, and THEY can't afford to offer this perk to their employees anymore.
In my eyes, a pension program in any form is unsustainable especially when it's being offered after only 20-30 years of work. It's a lovely idea, and I wish it could work, but it's just impossible to truly implement. The only people I know still receiving pensions are state and federal employees, because taxpayer dollars (collected, printed, or borrowed) money that is forcefully collected is used to pay for their pension programs.
I'm certainly not against labor unions, but I am against any benefits for state employees that really hardly exist in the private sector as well.
And as for all of my friends on the Train here with state pension funds with their names on it, I would plan on that future stream of income not being 100% there because of the pressure on it to collapse. Social Security is continually looted right in front of our eyes and I would expect no more honesty in any other state or federal pension program.
BofA.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
Sadly... that's not only 4 years out of date, it's skewed by huge donations by billionaires to the arts. Read the articles that he's linking to.. not just the blog itself.
The Average American isn't a billionaire.
Sorry but my experience has been that a majority of Americans get a big kick out of making the lives of other more miserable.
Sadly... that's not only 4 years out of date, it's skewed by huge donations by billionaires to the arts. Read the articles that he's linking to.. not just the blog itself.
The Average American isn't a billionaire.
Sorry but my experience has been that a majority of Americans get a big kick out of making the lives of other more miserable.
If you location is still current (hollywood), it may be over-influencing your view of American generosity. I've lived near L.A. and worked in L.A. and it is by far one of the most disconnected towns I've ever been in. The endless sprawl, strip malls, and horrible traffic are part of it but I also think that the high number of transplants has contributed to the demise of a "community". L.A. is also a very trendy city which means people are focused on the latest style, exotic cars, and trendy restaurants / nightclubs on their search for individualality. It's defiantly a "me" town.
At least that was my experience around L.A. People seem to be a lot more friendly and caring elsewhere.
Be Excellent To Each Other
Party On, Dudes!
0
81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
Mine doesn't. I work for a nuclear power company that switched a few years ago. I had the choice of a penson or the cash balance and I chose the cash balance. I invest for myself and I don't need to take a chance on some pension drying up someday.
Either way the State of Illinois gives state employees a pension. The Dem Governor just raised the income tax 67% and is now borrowing $4B to pay for pensions. This state won't be the next Wisconsin because Dems are in charge but I'm sure the taxes are going to skyrocket to pay for these pensions. They need to change it now for new hires and give them 401k only.
...
Illinois, correct? Is this the tax increase you are talking about? TRIBUNE UPDATE: Gov. Pat Quinn today acknowledged he plans to raise income taxes in the wake of a Chicago Tribune story that he is considering a 50 percent increase on individuals. He declined to confirm details in the Tribune report, which said he is looking at raising the personal income tax from 3 percent to 4.5 percent as well as increasing personal exemptions.
Ref: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... 2846.story
...
So, in reality... instead of paying 3 pennies per dollar... you are being asked to pay 4.5 pennies per dollar. Almost a WHOLE nickel!!!
Sounds like you guys haven't been paying for all of those services for a long, long time and the bill has been past due.
it went from 3% to 5% :x you shouldn't quote articles that are 2 years old and full of maybe
The plan's supporters warned that rising pension and health care costs probably will eat up all the spending allowed by the caps, forcing cuts in other areas of government.
add on to that the higest sales tax around.
property taxes that just keep going up.
corruption that just doesn't end. IL sucks, but if you give me $50K, i'll say something different.
People seem to be a lot more friendly and caring elsewhere.
Hm.
Really?
Because so far this year, newly-elected Republicans have fallen all over themselves to pass bills which are designed to just be mean to gay families, take away the protections of women and children and the working poor, take away the pensions and safety nets of the elderly and just destroy anyone who isn't white, Christian and heterosexual.
Sorry if our clothes and cars here in LA upset you so much.
People seem to be a lot more friendly and caring elsewhere.
Hm.
Really?
Because so far this year, newly-elected Republicans have fallen all over themselves to pass bills which are designed to just be mean to gay families, take away the protections of women and children and the working poor, take away the pensions and safety nets of the elderly and just destroy anyone who isn't white, Christian and heterosexual.
Sorry if our clothes and cars here in LA upset you so much.
You count politicians as people? No wonder you are jaded. Democrats and Republicans care nothing about you or me. They only care about votes and staying in power.
Comments
There is no jurisdiction where teachers in a public school get paid that well. There's probably another source of income of which you're unaware (and is none of your business). Either that or she teaches at a private school. Or is a university professor with a doctorate and writes books. I come from a family of teachers, some high school and some university and none of them make much.
Yes, some people on the town council are over paid and get too many perks... but those people probably aren'y in a union. So that's just elected officials giving themselves too much. You have the power to vote those people out.
I'm sorry to say that life just isn't that cut and dry.
State employees have not been paying the same as the rest of Wisconsin workers have for yrs. With this bill they finally will and it's only fair.
You mean to tell me your wife doesn't have a part time job in the summer. All the teachers I know have them. Like I said I wish I had a job where I knew I would be getting a great pension when I retire. This surplus of money is b.s. we don't have anymore to give. The state is broke and I don't want to see taxes go up anymore or more jobs lost. I'm getting sick of these teachers crying like they have lost everything when in fact they have not lost anything.
I hope you can make it to Alpine.
It is obvious that teachers are underpaid, and since they assumingly had to go thru more education/training then most other union members employed by cities and states, I think they are more justified in having a union fighting for them. Of any government employee, teachers seem to be the only ones who are truly paid much less then their services are really worth.
FYI, teachers do get a few tax benefits. In some states, they do not pay FICA tax (a savings of 4.2% of their salary, it used to be 6.2%) nor do they pay state disability insurance tax (1.1% in California). On a $40,000 salary, this is a savings of $2,120. Teachers can also deduct, and derive full benefit, of classroom expenses they incur on their own.
and no, my wife does not have a summer job. she used to teach summer school, but now would rather spend time with our son. and the time away from school allows her to regain some of her sanity. teaching is not an easy job. there are a lot of messed up kids, and worse - parents - to deal with. most people would not tolerate it for the compensation they receive. if is is so great, why did you not become a teacher?
I know these people very well ...her husband is in retail...stepped down from management years ago...They save for these vacations. They don't have a six digit income.....but you don't have to to have a life....
Now I do feel teachers should have collective bargaining options....but raises or more benifits, not at this time when there is no money....
Well and that's the big lie... this country has LOTS of money.
Plenty.
The governor of Wisconsin intentionally created this problem by taking a surplus that the state had... giving HUGE tax breaks to big corporations and then claiming that the state was broke. He did this because conservatives WANT to create these catastrophes that make people react in extreme, knee-jerk ways.
HE wanted to create this union-busting idea and to do that, he had to make the state broke first.
Why do you think that in a time that Millionaires like Sarah Palin are telling teachers that they have to "sacrifice in times like this" that we're giving Oprah Winfrey and Steve Jobs and Bill Gates 50 million dollars in tax cuts? It's to bankrupt the country so billionaires can gut medicare, social security and any social safety net?
You have billionaires bussing their staff to rallies where people demonstrate to lower taxes on oil companies. That doesn't strike you as odd? Really?
You have Tea Baggers calling radio shows saying "we have to do away with ENTITLEMENTS" but when you ask them specifically which ones... they start to sputter... they don't really know what that means. Kinda like the people who accuse our corporatist president of being a "socialist."
And medicare and Social Security aren't "entitlements" at all.. they're things we've all paid for.
If you pay for something and then ask for it at the grocery store, would you expect the cashier to yell at you that you were asking for an entitlement? Would you expect to be called a "socialist?" Then why are we doing these things to our senior citizens who've paid into these programs?
And finally... why do you think that out of the blue, the word "SOCIALIST" seems to have suddenly become such a terrifying thing even though most don't even know it's definition? Well... it's easy to take "socialist" and say that it extends to things like "social security."
and by the way...
I'm not saying that September 11th was an inside job but it sure was a convenient way to get Americans, people who used to value their privacy, to start begging the government to spy on them.
Fantastic post, Jasunmark. Couldn't have said it better myself.
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
No jurisdiction in the US? do you have proof?
Here in Ontario Canada teachers are paid extremely well, they got one of the best pensions in the world, 2 weeks off at christmas, a week off in march, 10 weeks in the summer and if your at the top of the pay scale roughly $80 000/year. That's good pay pay
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I'm admittedly a bit rusty on my geography. Isn't Ontario, Canada in Canada and not the US?
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All ... ers/Salary
According to that, Teachers in the US average about half of that. And now the government, with the help of Big Business and the Tea Baggers, is trying to do away with their pensions, social security and medicare.
In Canada, the people do care about each other. In the US, the national sport is now screwing other people out of whatever you can so you can get more for yourself.
You realize that pensions are forms of deferred payment for work already accomplished, right?
So taking them away is literally stealing money from people who have already earned it, right? That's "only fair" to you?
If you are offered a job with a great retirement and benefits package, would you think it's fair that you lose it because some other guy is upset with his station in life compared to yours?
If you're mad that people get better benefits than you, and you feel that public money shouldn't be allocated the way it is, perhaps you should direct your anger toward those who offered the jobs and the benefits packages, not those receiving them.
According to that link, its the Median of teacher pay. Which, yes, it is often close to the average, but it is not the same thing as the average.
Not picking one side or the other of this argument, just pointing that out.
First of all, your original post didn't say US, that why I asked for clarification. If they don't like the pay they can move into other jobs.
As for Canadians caring for each other is laughable. We have many special interest groups pushing their agenda on the government. The teachers unions in Ontario are extremely powerful and have been pushing their agenda far to long. I've never seen the teachers union express concern for the many people who lost their jobs in the latest recession, the autoworker who gave up concessions to keep their jobs, or the whatever. But when the government brought up the subject of freezing wages to deal with a massive deficit then the grumbling began. Far as I'm concerned they either except a wage freeze or layoffs.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I Suppose that's true. There are very few places where teachers at public schools are making more than that. A teacher making much more than that is probably teaching at a private school.
Yeah, I used to think that when I lived in Toronto (for 18 years until 2005).
Now I know better.
Trust me... for the little spats that we got up into in Canada, Americans are FAR more extreme with their "I got mine, fuck the rest of you" attitudes.
When I moved down here and saw first hand the rather cold way that people treat each other in this country, I was shocked. It seems most people down here would rather let children starve in the street if it means they can have a second big screen TV.
Believe me we are getting worse, maybe not to the extreme the Americans are, but we're getting there. When the autoworkers were forced to take huge concessions many people were happy to see that, I think some people took it personally when their car broke or something. Also people were delusional in thinking autoworkers were making piles of money. As for teachers unions here, I have never seen or heard them to come to the defense of others.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Pretty harsh considering that Americans give more to charity (based on GDP) than any country on the planet. I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience here.
Once upon a time IBM offered such a program in its hey-day and now no longer, they stopped probably 20 years ago. My friend just got a job working for a utility company around here and they just stopped offering their employees this benefit-- he is NOT going to be receiving a pension-- they switched to a 401K-type program. The energy company is practically a merger of public and private with a virtual monopoly on its electric service, and THEY can't afford to offer this perk to their employees anymore.
In my eyes, a pension program in any form is unsustainable especially when it's being offered after only 20-30 years of work. It's a lovely idea, and I wish it could work, but it's just impossible to truly implement. The only people I know still receiving pensions are state and federal employees, because taxpayer dollars (collected, printed, or borrowed) money that is forcefully collected is used to pay for their pension programs.
I'm certainly not against labor unions, but I am against any benefits for state employees that really hardly exist in the private sector as well.
And as for all of my friends on the Train here with state pension funds with their names on it, I would plan on that future stream of income not being 100% there because of the pressure on it to collapse. Social Security is continually looted right in front of our eyes and I would expect no more honesty in any other state or federal pension program.
1st of all, in my opinion, that is a terrible argument. No matter how broke you are you can still give respect and dignity to taxpaying citizens. By refusing to negotiate and saying you are broke and nothing to give, you are not giving any respect or dignity which is shame, because it costs nothing and at an economic time like this, we should be giving extra of things that cost nothing.
2nd of all, in the district that I teach in, we already pay almost the %'s that the governor is asking for so this effects me very little in the pocketbook, but I am extremely upset anyway, because this has nothing to do with money. Again, it is about respect and dignity for those people who "grow" the future (teachers), clean up our messes (garbage collectors), clear the roads when we need them most (snow plows), take care of us when we are sick (nurses) and do a lot of little things that we all only appreciate when they are gone.
3rd - We have not had any "sick outs" in my district and I have been protesting on my own time. When schools have been canceled it is upsetting to hear parents mad about their days being ruined, but not worried about their children's education. If all of these complaining parents came to parent/teacher conferences our world would be such a better place. We are in the middle of conferences and I have seen 3 out of apx 125 students (all of them currently getting A's)
4th - The real world I live in has a wife who waitresses and has already been scaled back to 1/2 her hours and about a 1/3 of the money because other people are not going out. My world contains a master's degree and a base salary of 38K and total compensation of 52K. Everybody says if it is so bad, quit, but I say if we have it so good, become a teacher, but most people don't because teaching is not about the money, it is about the kids and the experiences that cannot be bought with money. In my real world, I live in a 64K house, have one car from 2000 (w/ 140k miles), one from 2002 (w/ 80k miles), a TV bought in 2001 for college and two TVs that were thrown out by other people. In the seven years of marriage we have take exotic family trips to the Minneapolis/St. Paul (twice), Wisconsin Dells (twice) and the Upper Penisula of Michigan. But I would not trade any of what I have for a different job, which brings me to #5
5th - The bottom line for me (and many others) is that this is not about money. This is about a quality profession and a quality education. When collective bargaining is gone, don't be surprised when your child is now in a class of 30 or 40 or more and does not get any on one on attention. Don't be surprised when quality teachers go to different professions and are replaced by new teachers on a regular basis. Don't be surprised when kids do nothing in the community or any "life experiences" because we are too busy drilling for the next standardized test. Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their rankings on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:
South Carolina-50
North Carolina-49
Georgia-48
Texas-47
Virginia-44
In 2010 Wisconsin ranked 2nd in combined ACT/SAT scores.
We need to stop comparing public/private sector. Private sector will always reward their best people because the bottom line for a business is $, but there is no way to measure a bottom line for schools when it comes to money, so you will see schools find ways to cut corners.
We need to realize this argument should be middle class vs upper class. The tax cut debate of December had the rich saying "I earned this and it is mine; making me pay more is socialism." Not that we are talking about a regressive tax on middle class wage earners we hear "time to pay your fair share" In the Eisenhower years, the highest tax rate was 90% percent and we had the "baby boomer" generation. During the early Clinton years, we raised taxes on the rich and we had the longest economic growth since Eisenhower and had a budget surplus by the end of his administration. Bush cut the taxes on the rich and we have since had the "great recession". In Wisconsin 2/3rds of corporations paid $0 in taxes last year and we have high unemployment rates. As soon as the middle class stops marching to the corporate drum, we can fix our economic problems and come together again as a unified American middle class. Please stop fighting your neighbor and please look to the people behind the gates of the gated communities.
PEACE and keep up the PEACEFUL protests
Alpine 98,00,03 TFC 99, Chicago 00,03,09(2X),23(2X) St. Louis 03, Champagne 03, St. Paul 03,06(2X),14,23(2X), Noblesville 03, Toledo 04, Grand Rapids 04,06, Thunder Bay 05, Cleveland 06, Lolla 07, Roo 08, PJ20 X2, Wrigley 13 & 16, Portland/Spokane/Seattle 13, Milwaukee 14, Fenway 18(2X),24(2X), Quebec City 22, Ottawa 22, MSG 24, Philly 24(2X), Auckland 24, Gold Coast 24
I am in a labor union here in Boston and we still have a standard pension program. Each employee contributes $5.50 per hour to the pension fund. If you have worked a "full" year (1600 hours) you get a full pension credit for the year. 1 credit is equal to $104 dollars per year. So if you work 30 years and get a full pension credit every year, your pension would be roughly 3,000/month when you retire. We all pay into this fund so that we can be taken care of when we retire. We have an elected official who is a member of our union who is a trustee of the fund. It is not in the stock market so will never lose large sums of money based on how the economy is fairing. We put a certain amount of our pay raise into this fund to ensure that it stays in the green. Last I heard at one of our meetings we have more people paying into the fund than the fund is paying out. So I guess that is the right track to be on.
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
Mine doesn't. I work for a nuclear power company that switched a few years ago. I had the choice of a penson or the cash balance and I chose the cash balance. I invest for myself and I don't need to take a chance on some pension drying up someday.
Either way the State of Illinois gives state employees a pension. The Dem Governor just raised the income tax 67% and is now borrowing $4B to pay for pensions. This state won't be the next Wisconsin because Dems are in charge but I'm sure the taxes are going to skyrocket to pay for these pensions. They need to change it now for new hires and give them 401k only.
Illinois, correct? Is this the tax increase you are talking about?
TRIBUNE UPDATE: Gov. Pat Quinn today acknowledged he plans to raise income taxes in the wake of a Chicago Tribune story that he is considering a 50 percent increase on individuals. He declined to confirm details in the Tribune report, which said he is looking at raising the personal income tax from 3 percent to 4.5 percent as well as increasing personal exemptions.
Ref: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... 2846.story
...
So, in reality... instead of paying 3 pennies per dollar... you are being asked to pay 4.5 pennies per dollar. Almost a WHOLE nickel!!!
Sounds like you guys haven't been paying for all of those services for a long, long time and the bill has been past due.
Hail, Hail!!!
Yeah... I get that.. but down here in America, people seem to take an odd sense of joy at the misfortunes and pain of others. It's like... a bizarre sickness.
It's not enough to be straight and be against gay marriage, for instance.. no.. down here in America, they have to vote away the rights of a minority, have huge celebration rallies in the streets afterward... they then pass bills to make giving even health benefits to same sex couples illegal... they'll go out of their way to not only take away rights and throw a party, they'll continue to be mean and spiteful and try to find new ways to hurt people they don't like... I've never seen anything like that in Canada. Nothing close.
Really?
I can't find anything to support that statement.
This list..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo ... _countries
Puts the US at the top in dollar amount although when it's the amount of money they give as a percentage of their gross national income we fall to 19th.
And yeah... when the whole country seems to really get a kick out of the pain and suffering of others... I've had a rather bad experience down here.
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/06/americans-are-most-generous-people-in.html
BofA.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
Sadly... that's not only 4 years out of date, it's skewed by huge donations by billionaires to the arts. Read the articles that he's linking to.. not just the blog itself.
The Average American isn't a billionaire.
Sorry but my experience has been that a majority of Americans get a big kick out of making the lives of other more miserable.
At least that was my experience around L.A. People seem to be a lot more friendly and caring elsewhere.
it went from 3% to 5% :x you shouldn't quote articles that are 2 years old and full of maybe
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/1 ... 07801.html
add on to that the higest sales tax around.
property taxes that just keep going up.
corruption that just doesn't end. IL sucks, but if you give me $50K, i'll say something different.
Hm.
Really?
Because so far this year, newly-elected Republicans have fallen all over themselves to pass bills which are designed to just be mean to gay families, take away the protections of women and children and the working poor, take away the pensions and safety nets of the elderly and just destroy anyone who isn't white, Christian and heterosexual.
Sorry if our clothes and cars here in LA upset you so much.