Union Busting in Wisconsin!!!

Prince Of Dorkness

whygohome wrote:

I have never been so happy to embrace Marx;

Um.. what does collective bargaining have to do with Karl Marx?

Unions have been abused... no denying that. But they've also helped protect the otherwise-voiceless working people on America from abusive corporations whose only goal is to make money, whether they have to screw over their own workers or not.

Jason P

inmytree wrote:

patrickredeyes wrote:

It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.

Welcome to the Real World!!!

There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!

somebody sounds jealous...

as for the state being broke...you're wrong...it was slated to have a surplus...

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion ... aaaf6.html

facts hurt...

The memo referenced is correct but it doesn't tell the whole story according to the Milwaukee Journal Carrier. They have $131M this year but the projected spending is $258M, thus a deficit at the end of the year if cuts are not made.

The unions argue that the common person is being stomped on, but I see it as the union's motto of "take and no give" has finally caught up with them.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116480323.html


As Gov. Scott Walker pushes for financial concessions from state workers, some opponents of the Republican governor’s proposal are arguing that there isn’t a budget shortfall.

Walker has said the state faces a $137 million budget shortfall for this fiscal year ending on June 30 and a $3.6 billion shortfall for the next two years.

Opponents are pointing to a Jan. 31 memo by the Legislature’s nonpartisan budget shop that says that the state will finish this fiscal year with $121.4 million in its main account.

But there’s more to the memo. The budget surplus will only happen if the state keeps its spending in line with what has been budgeted.

But the memo lays out about $258 million in spending by the state that is projected to go over budget. That’s in several areas, including health care spending for the poor, prisons and a payment due to Minnesota in December after the canceling of an income tax agreement between the two states.

Once this over-budget spending is factored in, the state will be unable to pay all its bills this fiscal year if no action is taken.

“We have $121 million in the bank but if we addressed the $258 million in shortfalls then we’re in the hole by $137 million,” said Bob Lang, the director of the Legislative Fiscal Bureau.

Drowned Out

Jasunmark wrote:

Unions have been abused... no denying that. But they've also helped protect the otherwise-voiceless working people on America from abusive corporations whose only goal is to make money, whether they have to screw over their own workers or not.

Right. And why do business owners always get a free pass when it comes to the 'abuse' inflicted upon them by unions? Are they not sitting on the other side of the bargaining table? If they sign a collective, I don't want to hear them cry about how the union is killing their business. You were part of the negotiations, you had a say...
Also, unions do not just protect their members; they can play a pivotal role in forcing social change...yes, still today. They are organized and have direct contact with large memberships, and often foster enough loyalty among those members that they will put their weight behind the union position in order to influence government. They provide a bit of counterbalance to the influence of the religious right. Any movement organized labour gets behind, gets instant attention from the government.

Jason P

Drowned Out wrote:

Jasunmark wrote:

Unions have been abused... no denying that. But they've also helped protect the otherwise-voiceless working people on America from abusive corporations whose only goal is to make money, whether they have to screw over their own workers or not.

Right. And why do business owners always get a free pass when it comes to the 'abuse' inflicted upon them by unions? Are they not sitting on the other side of the bargaining table? If they sign a collective, I don't want to hear them cry about how the union is killing their business. You were part of the negotiations, you had a say...
Also, unions do not just protect their members; they can play a pivotal role in forcing social change...yes, still today. They are organized and have direct contact with large memberships, and often foster enough loyalty among those members that they will put their weight behind the union position in order to influence government. They provide a bit of counterbalance to the influence of the religious right. Any movement organized labour gets behind, gets instant attention from the government.

It depends on how large the gun is that was held to the business' head by the union when the collective was signed. At least in construction, contractors are usually tied to liquidated damages in contracts. If the work force strikes, it puts contractors in a very bad situation. It's either go out of business, agree to the demands and lose profit (which is usually 2% of the bid), or play a game of ego chicken where both sides suffer while a few power brokers from each side turn their noses at each other.

In the Wisconsin case, I would be interested to see if the State asked the unions to make concessions or if they just went on the attack ... which is something that unions often due for no reason.

whygohome

Jasunmark wrote:

whygohome wrote:

I have never been so happy to embrace Marx;

Um.. what does collective bargaining have to do with Karl Marx?

Unions have been abused... no denying that. But they've also helped protect the otherwise-voiceless working people on America from abusive corporations whose only goal is to make money, whether they have to screw over their own workers or not.

All I meant was that I side with the workers, and that I see the ill effects that capitalism can have on the poor and the lower and middle classes.

WaveCameCrashin

patrickredeyes wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

patrickredeyes wrote:

It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.



Right on patrickredeyes :clap: :clap: :clap: These people have no idea how bad they are pissing off people that work in the private sector. Why the he'll should we be the ones that pay for their healthcare and pensions. This is the same thing that happened in Greece. Also if I remember correctly there were people in media saying that it would never happen here. Well guess what it's here. Some of you guys are completely out of touch and don't realize how bad things are. This is just the beginning.



Welcome to the Real World!!!

There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!

you would not have near the "buget crisis" you have now if your moronic governor did not cut taxes when he took office...and let's not forget he declined funds for the high speed rail that would have created jobs and put people to work....he is gonna get recalled.

Umm our last Gov. never said no to anything. He gave and gave money away until he left office. He tried passing that waste of a high speed rail bill threw at 2am so nobody would notice. Thank goodness that didn't go threw cause the amount of money it would have cost the state to run that high speed rail pr yr would be way too much. And we don't need high speed rail in Wisconsin at this time. Ask the people of the state most agree.


I'm not a huge fan of Walker but he is doing what he said he would do. He's not raising taxes and turning off the tap. We can't be doing what we have been doing it's not working.

The teachers are upset cause this upsets their perfect lives. And yes I said perfect lives.....three months off in the summer and getting paid for it along with other paid days off during the year. Ohh and I wish I had a job where I knew once I retire at the young age of 55 I can get a nice pension for the rest of my life. And what's that you say the only thing I have to do in order to get that is pay a small amount towards it. Well sign me up for that yes please.
All that Walker is asking is for them to pay their share like the rest of us. It's only fair and about time.

81

screw their full retirements at age 55

it's retarded how much public people get paid.

oh, and for the chicken shit politians that ran off to anouther state.....they should be fired on the spot.

go pre

you realize this is not just about teachers? this affects all state workers, except of course, police, firemen and state patrol, who just happened to support walker's election. i think the workers are willing to give more to their insurance and pension, but why does walker need to take away collective bargaining? that is what the portests really are about. cutting that will not save the state any money. that move is purely political, because without unions, the democratic party will lose most of it funding, while republicans will always have the big businesses.

also, why does this part of the bill need to be passed within a week, while the rest of the budget doesn't get passed for several more months? that alone smells fishy to me. this part of the budget saves less than 10 percent of the 3.6 billion dollar shortfall (if you believe that figure). i want to know where the other 90 percent is coming from, and that is a question the rest of the people of this state should be asking.

finally, patrickredeyes, state employees are paying just as much of their own salaries (taxes) as you are. my wife's perfect life (she's a teacher) puts us in a 60-year-old, 1200-square-foot house that is in need of many repairs. we, along with our 9-month-old son, live within our means, but never plan on being wealthy - it's just not possible given the profession. we don't have any of the toys (boats, snowmobiles) that our friends have. lower middle class is as good as we'll get. we were planning a vacation out east this summer, driving of course, but we'll now probably have to put that off for at least a year. hopefully, i'll be able to afford the trip to my backyard to see pearl jam if they play alpine this year. i may be forced to sell my vinyl collection and yellow ten to afford it.

aerial

I work with a man whose wife is a teacher and they vacation out out the country (Alaska, Italy...) twice a year. If they can retire at 55 that is part of the salary along with all holidays off. Here in my town the city council members get a pension for only four years on the council and it's concidered part time. CRAZY!

go pre

aerial wrote:

I work with a man whose wife is a teacher and they vacation out out the country (Alaska, Italy...) twice a year. If they can retire at 55 that is part of the salary along with all holidays off. Here in my town the city council members get a pension for only four years on the council and it's concidered part time. CRAZY!

so, alaska is now out of the country? i'm wondering what kind of money the man you work with makes, because they certainly cannot affort two expensive vacations per year on just the teacher's salary.

Prince Of Dorkness

aerial wrote:

I work with a man whose wife is a teacher and they vacation out out the country (Alaska, Italy...) twice a year. If they can retire at 55 that is part of the salary along with all holidays off. Here in my town the city council members get a pension for only four years on the council and it's concidered part time. CRAZY!

There is no jurisdiction where teachers in a public school get paid that well. There's probably another source of income of which you're unaware (and is none of your business). Either that or she teaches at a private school. Or is a university professor with a doctorate and writes books. I come from a family of teachers, some high school and some university and none of them make much.

Yes, some people on the town council are over paid and get too many perks... but those people probably aren'y in a union. So that's just elected officials giving themselves too much. You have the power to vote those people out.

I'm sorry to say that life just isn't that cut and dry.

patrickredeyes

go pre wrote:

finally, patrickredeyes, state employees are paying just as much of their own salaries (taxes) as you are. my wife's perfect life (she's a teacher) puts us in a 60-year-old, 1200-square-foot house that is in need of many repairs. we, along with our 9-month-old son, live within our means, but never plan on being wealthy - it's just not possible given the profession. we don't have any of the toys (boats, snowmobiles) that our friends have. lower middle class is as good as we'll get. we were planning a vacation out east this summer, driving of course, but we'll now probably have to put that off for at least a year. hopefully, i'll be able to afford the trip to my backyard to see pearl jam if they play alpine this year. i may be forced to sell my vinyl collection and yellow ten to afford it.

State employees have not been paying the same as the rest of Wisconsin workers have for yrs. With this bill they finally will and it's only fair.

You mean to tell me your wife doesn't have a part time job in the summer. All the teachers I know have them. Like I said I wish I had a job where I knew I would be getting a great pension when I retire. This surplus of money is b.s. we don't have anymore to give. The state is broke and I don't want to see taxes go up anymore or more jobs lost. I'm getting sick of these teachers crying like they have lost everything when in fact they have not lost anything.

I hope you can make it to Alpine.

JOEJOEJOE

Jasunmark wrote:

aerial wrote:

I work with a man whose wife is a teacher and they vacation out out the country (Alaska, Italy...) twice a year. If they can retire at 55 that is part of the salary along with all holidays off. Here in my town the city council members get a pension for only four years on the council and it's concidered part time. CRAZY!

There is no jurisdiction where teachers in a public school get paid that well. There's probably another source of income of which you're unaware (and is none of your business). Either that or she teaches at a private school. Or is a university professor with a doctorate and writes books. I come from a family of teachers, some high school and some university and none of them make much.

Yes, some people on the town council are over paid and get too many perks... but those people probably aren'y in a union. So that's just elected officials giving themselves too much. You have the power to vote those people out.

I'm sorry to say that life just isn't that cut and dry.

It is obvious that teachers are underpaid, and since they assumingly had to go thru more education/training then most other union members employed by cities and states, I think they are more justified in having a union fighting for them. Of any government employee, teachers seem to be the only ones who are truly paid much less then their services are really worth.

FYI, teachers do get a few tax benefits. In some states, they do not pay FICA tax (a savings of 4.2% of their salary, it used to be 6.2%) nor do they pay state disability insurance tax (1.1% in California). On a $40,000 salary, this is a savings of $2,120. Teachers can also deduct, and derive full benefit, of classroom expenses they incur on their own.

go pre

patrickredeyes wrote:

go pre wrote:

finally, patrickredeyes, state employees are paying just as much of their own salaries (taxes) as you are. my wife's perfect life (she's a teacher) puts us in a 60-year-old, 1200-square-foot house that is in need of many repairs. we, along with our 9-month-old son, live within our means, but never plan on being wealthy - it's just not possible given the profession. we don't have any of the toys (boats, snowmobiles) that our friends have. lower middle class is as good as we'll get. we were planning a vacation out east this summer, driving of course, but we'll now probably have to put that off for at least a year. hopefully, i'll be able to afford the trip to my backyard to see pearl jam if they play alpine this year. i may be forced to sell my vinyl collection and yellow ten to afford it.

State employees have not been paying the same as the rest of Wisconsin workers have for yrs. With this bill they finally will and it's only fair.

You mean to tell me your wife doesn't have a part time job in the summer. All the teachers I know have them. Like I said I wish I had a job where I knew I would be getting a great pension when I retire. This surplus of money is b.s. we don't have anymore to give. The state is broke and I don't want to see taxes go up anymore or more jobs lost. I'm getting sick of these teachers crying like they have lost everything when in fact they have not lost anything.

I hope you can make it to Alpine.

are you trying to say that state employees do not pay taxes like everyone else? they do, at the same rates as everyone. therefore, they have been paying the same. when cuts to wages and benefits are made in the private sector, that benefits the bottom line of the employer and has nothing to do with balancing the state budget. so when this passes, i want to know what the private sector is going to do to help reduce this deficit. this part of the budget only accounts for 10 percent of the 3.6 billion. why does this have to pass before walker reveals the other 90 percent? everyone, including public workers again, will get hosed.

and no, my wife does not have a summer job. she used to teach summer school, but now would rather spend time with our son. and the time away from school allows her to regain some of her sanity. teaching is not an easy job. there are a lot of messed up kids, and worse - parents - to deal with. most people would not tolerate it for the compensation they receive. if is is so great, why did you not become a teacher?

aerial

Jasunmark wrote:

aerial wrote:

I work with a man whose wife is a teacher and they vacation out out the country (Alaska, Italy...) twice a year. If they can retire at 55 that is part of the salary along with all holidays off. Here in my town the city council members get a pension for only four years on the council and it's concidered part time. CRAZY!

There is no jurisdiction where teachers in a public school get paid that well. There's probably another source of income of which you're unaware (and is none of your business). Either that or she teaches at a private school. Or is a university professor with a doctorate and writes books. I come from a family of teachers, some high school and some university and none of them make much.

Yes, some people on the town council are over paid and get too many perks... but those people probably aren'y in a union. So that's just elected officials giving themselves too much. You have the power to vote those people out.

I'm sorry to say that life just isn't that cut and dry.

I know these people very well ...her husband is in retail...stepped down from management years ago...They save for these vacations. They don't have a six digit income.....but you don't have to to have a life....
Now I do feel teachers should have collective bargaining options....but raises or more benifits, not at this time when there is no money....

Prince Of Dorkness

aerial wrote:

I know these people very well ...her husband is in retail...stepped down from management years ago...They save for these vacations. They don't have a six digit income.....but you don't have to to have a life....
Now I do feel teachers should have collective bargaining options....but raises or more benifits, not at this time when there is no money....

Well and that's the big lie... this country has LOTS of money.

Plenty.

The governor of Wisconsin intentionally created this problem by taking a surplus that the state had... giving HUGE tax breaks to big corporations and then claiming that the state was broke. He did this because conservatives WANT to create these catastrophes that make people react in extreme, knee-jerk ways.

HE wanted to create this union-busting idea and to do that, he had to make the state broke first.

Why do you think that in a time that Millionaires like Sarah Palin are telling teachers that they have to "sacrifice in times like this" that we're giving Oprah Winfrey and Steve Jobs and Bill Gates 50 million dollars in tax cuts? It's to bankrupt the country so billionaires can gut medicare, social security and any social safety net?

You have billionaires bussing their staff to rallies where people demonstrate to lower taxes on oil companies. That doesn't strike you as odd? Really?

You have Tea Baggers calling radio shows saying "we have to do away with ENTITLEMENTS" but when you ask them specifically which ones... they start to sputter... they don't really know what that means. Kinda like the people who accuse our corporatist president of being a "socialist."

And medicare and Social Security aren't "entitlements" at all.. they're things we've all paid for.

If you pay for something and then ask for it at the grocery store, would you expect the cashier to yell at you that you were asking for an entitlement? Would you expect to be called a "socialist?" Then why are we doing these things to our senior citizens who've paid into these programs?

And finally... why do you think that out of the blue, the word "SOCIALIST" seems to have suddenly become such a terrifying thing even though most don't even know it's definition? Well... it's easy to take "socialist" and say that it extends to things like "social security."


and by the way...

I'm not saying that September 11th was an inside job but it sure was a convenient way to get Americans, people who used to value their privacy, to start begging the government to spy on them.

youngster

Jasunmark wrote:

aerial wrote:

I know these people very well ...her husband is in retail...stepped down from management years ago...They save for these vacations. They don't have a six digit income.....but you don't have to to have a life....
Now I do feel teachers should have collective bargaining options....but raises or more benifits, not at this time when there is no money....

Well and that's the big lie... this country has LOTS of money.

Plenty.

The governor of Wisconsin intentionally created this problem by taking a surplus that the state had... giving HUGE tax breaks to big corporations and then claiming that the state was broke. He did this because conservatives WANT to create these catastrophes that make people react in extreme, knee-jerk ways.

HE wanted to create this union-busting idea and to do that, he had to make the state broke first.

Why do you think that in a time that Millionaires like Sarah Palin are telling teachers that they have to "sacrifice in times like this" that we're giving Oprah Winfrey and Steve Jobs and Bill Gates 50 million dollars in tax cuts? It's to bankrupt the country so billionaires can gut medicare, social security and any social safety net?

You have billionaires bussing their staff to rallies where people demonstrate to lower taxes on oil companies. That doesn't strike you as odd? Really?

You have Tea Baggers calling radio shows saying "we have to do away with ENTITLEMENTS" but when you ask them specifically which ones... they start to sputter... they don't really know what that means. Kinda like the people who accuse our corporatist president of being a "socialist."

And medicare and Social Security aren't "entitlements" at all.. they're things we've all paid for.

If you pay for something and then ask for it at the grocery store, would you expect the cashier to yell at you that you were asking for an entitlement? Would you expect to be called a "socialist?" Then why are we doing these things to our senior citizens who've paid into these programs?

And finally... why do you think that out of the blue, the word "SOCIALIST" seems to have suddenly become such a terrifying thing even though most don't even know it's definition? Well... it's easy to take "socialist" and say that it extends to things like "social security."


and by the way...

I'm not saying that September 11th was an inside job but it sure was a convenient way to get Americans, people who used to value their privacy, to start begging the government to spy on them.

Fantastic post, Jasunmark. Couldn't have said it better myself. :clap:

lukin2006

Jasunmark wrote:

aerial wrote:

I work with a man whose wife is a teacher and they vacation out out the country (Alaska, Italy...) twice a year. If they can retire at 55 that is part of the salary along with all holidays off. Here in my town the city council members get a pension for only four years on the council and it's concidered part time. CRAZY!

There is no jurisdiction where teachers in a public school get paid that well. There's probably another source of income of which you're unaware (and is none of your business). Either that or she teaches at a private school. Or is a university professor with a doctorate and writes books. I come from a family of teachers, some high school and some university and none of them make much.

Yes, some people on the town council are over paid and get too many perks... but those people probably aren'y in a union. So that's just elected officials giving themselves too much. You have the power to vote those people out.

I'm sorry to say that life just isn't that cut and dry.

?


No jurisdiction in the US? do you have proof?

Here in Ontario Canada teachers are paid extremely well, they got one of the best pensions in the world, 2 weeks off at christmas, a week off in march, 10 weeks in the summer and if your at the top of the pay scale roughly $80 000/year. That's good pay pay

Prince Of Dorkness

lukin2006 wrote:

No jurisdiction in the US? do you have proof?

Here in Ontario Canada teachers are paid extremely well, they got one of the best pensions in the world, 2 weeks off at christmas, a week off in march, 10 weeks in the summer and if your at the top of the pay scale roughly $80 000/year. That's good pay pay

I'm admittedly a bit rusty on my geography. Isn't Ontario, Canada in Canada and not the US?

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All ... ers/Salary

According to that, Teachers in the US average about half of that. And now the government, with the help of Big Business and the Tea Baggers, is trying to do away with their pensions, social security and medicare.

In Canada, the people do care about each other. In the US, the national sport is now screwing other people out of whatever you can so you can get more for yourself.

milarso

patrickredeyes wrote:

The teachers are upset cause this upsets their perfect lives. And yes I said perfect lives.....three months off in the summer and getting paid for it along with other paid days off during the year. Ohh and I wish I had a job where I knew once I retire at the young age of 55 I can get a nice pension for the rest of my life. And what's that you say the only thing I have to do in order to get that is pay a small amount towards it. Well sign me up for that yes please.
All that Walker is asking is for them to pay their share like the rest of us. It's only fair and about time.

You realize that pensions are forms of deferred payment for work already accomplished, right?
So taking them away is literally stealing money from people who have already earned it, right? That's "only fair" to you?
If you are offered a job with a great retirement and benefits package, would you think it's fair that you lose it because some other guy is upset with his station in life compared to yours?
If you're mad that people get better benefits than you, and you feel that public money shouldn't be allocated the way it is, perhaps you should direct your anger toward those who offered the jobs and the benefits packages, not those receiving them.