Union Busting in Wisconsin!!!

krobbinzkrobbinz Posts: 187
edited February 2011 in A Moving Train
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/16/ ... cnn_latest
http://www.cnbc.com/id/41620626?__sourc ... &par=otbrn

The protection for all public employees is balancing on a thread!
If youre a member of a union or a person that believes in protecting the little guy, please be sure to assist us that have a chance of losing ours here in Wisconsin...if that happens it will filter into your neck of the woods as well :evil: .
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Comments

  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,619
    A good compromise: Don't bust the union, but have the employees kick-in for their pensions. In difficult economic times, no one should be immune to downsizing.
  • satansbedsatansbed Posts: 2,139
    krobbinz wrote:
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/16/wisconsin.budget/index.html?section=cnn_latest
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/41620626?__sourc ... &par=otbrn

    The protection for all public employees is balancing on a thread!
    If youre a member of a union or a person that believes in protecting the little guy, please be sure to assist us that have a chance of losing ours here in Wisconsin...if that happens it will filter into your neck of the woods as well :evil: .
    i hate the unions
  • I read an article yesterday that said that real wages for middle class workers (~$30k per year) have actually FALLEN by several percentage points since 1980 while the upper class (which I think they defined as the top 10%) have increased by 33%. A major factor behind this is the decline of worker rights and organization.

    So, if you're for screwing the bottom 90% (yourself), then yeah... you should be against unions. Otherwise, I'll assume you are making >$125k per year or $250k per year if you're married?
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    I read an article yesterday that said that real wages for middle class workers (~$30k per year) have actually FALLEN by several percentage points since 1980 while the upper class (which I think they defined as the top 10%) have increased by 33%. A major factor behind this is the decline of worker rights and organization.

    So, if you're for screwing the bottom 90% (yourself), then yeah... you should be against unions. Otherwise, I'll assume you are making >$125k per year or $250k per year if you're married?

    Sources please. I'm not saying that I don't believe you, but I would like to read more about this, as this is something I have had my eye on for quite some time. I have never been so happy to embrace Marx; if an event happens in the U.S. like what recently happened in Egypt, these facts and situations like the one in Wisc. will be the cause.

    I have images of the lower-class (the abused) storming Wall St. It will happen. Workers of the world unite....and strike!
  • whygohome wrote:
    I read an article yesterday that said that real wages for middle class workers (~$30k per year) have actually FALLEN by several percentage points since 1980 while the upper class (which I think they defined as the top 10%) have increased by 33%. A major factor behind this is the decline of worker rights and organization.

    So, if you're for screwing the bottom 90% (yourself), then yeah... you should be against unions. Otherwise, I'll assume you are making >$125k per year or $250k per year if you're married?

    Sources please. I'm not saying that I don't believe you, but I would like to read more about this, as this is something I have had my eye on for quite some time. I have never been so happy to embrace Marx; if an event happens in the U.S. like what recently happened in Egypt, these facts and situations like the one in Wisc. will be the cause.

    I have images of the lower-class (the abused) storming Wall St. It will happen. Workers of the world unite....and strike!

    there is NOTHING marxist about labor unions. Part of any FREE MARKET is the right for laborers to organize. Only when industries are protected by government is there a problem with it...

    I got a few numbers wrong... but essentially what I wrote was correct

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/How-the-m ... et=&ccode=

    Are you better off than your parents?

    Probably not if you're in the middle class.

    Incomes for 90% of Americans have been stuck in neutral, and it's not just because of the Great Recession. Middle-class incomes have been stagnant for at least a generation, while the wealthiest tier has surged ahead at lighting speed.

    In 1988, the income of an average American taxpayer was $33,400, adjusted for inflation. Fast forward 20 years, and not much had changed: The average income was still just $33,000 in 2008, according to IRS data.

    Meanwhile, the richest 1% of Americans -- those making $380,000 or more -- have seen their incomes grow 33% over the last 20 years, leaving average Americans in the dust. Experts point to some of the usual suspects -- like technology and globalization -- to explain the widening gap between the haves and have-nots.

    But there's more to the story.

    A real drag on the middle class

    One major pull on the working man was the decline of unions and other labor protections, said Bill Rodgers, a former chief economist for the Labor Department, now a professor at Rutgers University.

    Because of deals struck through collective bargaining, union workers have traditionally earned 15% to 20% more than their non-union counterparts, Rodgers said.

    But union membership has declined rapidly over the past 30 years. In 1983, union workers made up about 20% of the workforce. In 2010, they represented less than 12%.

    "The erosion of collective bargaining is a key factor to explain why low-wage workers and middle income workers have seen their wages not stay up with inflation," Rodgers said.

    Without collective bargaining pushing up wages, especially for blue-collar work -- average incomes have stagnated.

    International competition is another factor. While globalization has lifted millions out of poverty in developing nations, it hasn't exactly been a win for middle class workers in the U.S.

    Factory workers have seen many of their jobs shipped to other countries where labor is cheaper, putting more downward pressure on American wages.

    "As we became more connected to China, that poses the question of whether our wages are being set in Beijing," Rodgers said.

    Finding it harder to compete with cheaper manufacturing costs abroad, the U.S. has emerged as primarily a services-producing economy. That trend has created a cultural shift in the job skills American employers are looking for.

    Whereas 50 years earlier, there were plenty of blue collar opportunities for workers who had only high school diploma, now employers seek "soft skills" that are typically honed in college, Rodgers said.

    A boon for the rich

    While average folks were losing ground in the economy, the wealthiest were capitalizing on some of those same factors, and driving an even bigger wedge between themselves and the rest of America.

    For example, though globalization has been a drag on labor, it's been a major win for corporations who've used new global channels to reduce costs and boost profits. In addition, new markets around the world have created even greater demand for their products.

    "With a global economy, people who have extraordinary skills... whether they be in financial services, technology, entertainment or media, have a bigger place to play and be rewarded from," said Alan Johnson, a Wall Street compensation consultant.

    As a result, the disparity between the wages for college educated workers versus high school grads has widened significantly since the 1980s.

    In 1980, workers with a high school diploma earned about 71% of what college-educated workers made. In 2010, that number fell to 55%.

    Another driver of the rich: The stock market.

    The S&P 500 has gained more than 1,300% since 1970. While that's helped the American economy grow, the benefits have been disproportionately reaped by the wealthy.

    And public policy of the past few decades has only encouraged the trend.

    The 1980s was a period of anti-regulation, presided over by President Reagan, who loosened rules governing banks and thrifts.

    A major game changer came during the Clinton era, when barriers between commercial and investment banks, enacted during the post-Depression era, were removed.

    In 2000, the Commodity Futures Modernization Act also weakened the government's oversight of complex securities, allowing financial innovations to take off, creating unprecedented amounts of wealth both for the overall economy, and for those directly involved in the financial sector.

    Tax cuts enacted during the Bush administration and extended under Obama were also a major windfall for the nation's richest.

    And as then-Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan brought interest rates down to new lows during the decade, the housing market experienced explosive growth.

    "We were all drinking the Kool-aid, Greenspan was tending bar, Bernanke and the academic establishment were supplying the liquor," Deutsche Bank managing director Ajay Kapur wrote in a research report in 2009.

    But the story didn't end well. Eventually, it all came crashing down, resulting in the worst economic slump since the Great Depression.

    With the unemployment rate still excessively high and the real estate market showing few signs of rebounding, the American middle class is still reeling from the effects of the Great Recession.

    Meanwhile, as corporate profits come roaring back and the stock market charges ahead, the wealthiest people continue to eclipse their middle-class counterparts.

    "I think it's a terrible dilemma, because what we're obviously heading toward is some kind of class warfare," Johnson said.
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,158
    Interesting. The democrats have fled the state so the vote cannot take place.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110217/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions

    Under Walker's plan, state employees' share of pension and health care costs would go up by an average of 8 percent.

    Unions still could represent workers, but could not seek pay increases above those pegged to the Consumer Price Index unless approved by a public referendum. Unions also could not force employees to pay dues and would have to hold annual votes to stay organized.

    In exchange for bearing more costs and losing bargaining leverage, public employees were promised no furloughs or layoffs. Walker has threatened to order layoffs of up to 6,000 state workers if the measure does not pass.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    whygohome wrote:
    I read an article yesterday that said that real wages for middle class workers (~$30k per year) have actually FALLEN by several percentage points since 1980 while the upper class (which I think they defined as the top 10%) have increased by 33%. A major factor behind this is the decline of worker rights and organization.

    So, if you're for screwing the bottom 90% (yourself), then yeah... you should be against unions. Otherwise, I'll assume you are making >$125k per year or $250k per year if you're married?

    Sources please. I'm not saying that I don't believe you, but I would like to read more about this, as this is something I have had my eye on for quite some time. I have never been so happy to embrace Marx; if an event happens in the U.S. like what recently happened in Egypt, these facts and situations like the one in Wisc. will be the cause.

    I have images of the lower-class (the abused) storming Wall St. It will happen. Workers of the world unite....and strike!

    there is NOTHING marxist about labor unions. Part of any FREE MARKET is the right for laborers to organize. Only when industries are protected by government is there a problem with it...

    I got a few numbers wrong... but essentially what I wrote was correct

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/How-the-m ... et=&ccode=

    "The right for laborers to organize"? You mean people should equal and fair treatment? No way! Unfortunately, this is a Corporate Oligarchy and the public is nothing but a large group of consumers and worker bees.

    That's a great article and should be required reading for every citizen of this country. And I mean that people should be held down and forced to read it word for word. Turn off the damn TV, log out of facebook, and get involved in what is going on in this country.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    krobbinz wrote:
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/16/wisconsin.budget/index.html?section=cnn_latest
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/41620626?__sourc ... &par=otbrn

    The protection for all public employees is balancing on a thread!
    If youre a member of a union or a person that believes in protecting the little guy, please be sure to assist us that have a chance of losing ours here in Wisconsin...if that happens it will filter into your neck of the woods as well :evil: .
    i agree with you. if this passes in wisconsin it can have a snowball effect in other states. it was nice to see thousands of american workers standing up for themselves today. but you know what, you elected a republican governor, and congress, and republicans never stand up for the little guy, or the government worker. it is as if that is written in stone. people fail to see that until they are the ones affected by that legislation. people have no idea what they voted for, but they will find out soon enough when they have to pay their own pension and pay double for the same health insurance...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.

    Welcome to the Real World!!!

    There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.

    Welcome to the Real World!!!

    There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!
    you would not have near the "buget crisis" you have now if your moronic governor did not cut taxes when he took office...and let's not forget he declined funds for the high speed rail that would have created jobs and put people to work....he is gonna get recalled.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    First off I want to say that Government employees are not the cause of and should not be the only people paying the price when it comes to giant budget deficits. That being said unions are definitely crippling local, state, and even federal employers.

    i work in a union, and would gladly give up their "protection". All they protect is the crappy workers I cannot get rid of ... We have been asked to take leave without pay, we have been asked to pay more for our health insurance, many of the contract agreements have fallen by the way side, and yet I am FORCED to contribute $80 a month so they can give away $87 million to try to keep democrats in office. Please tell me, how is that a good use of the funds? Those 87 million dollars could have just stayed in the union coffers to help pay for our premiums which have gone up or help offset the fact that because of the union I do not get a raise for the next 4 years.

    Wow, so thankful we have this awesome union that sticks me with crappy employees who can call in sick as much as they want without fear...Unions need to start realizing that the "protection" they give the workers cripples the employers...and I am not talking about big business, I am talking about all state and local governments.

    I have to give up all this stuff, (which I am actually fine with as long as I have a job), when in reality if we trimmed the incompetent work force from the books we could all double our benefits and still have money left over to shrink the budget deficits. Uncontrolled spending and a HUGE economic collapse got us in this mess and simply raising taxes won't solve it, it will just prolong it until the next huge deficit when we need to raise taxes again.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.

    Welcome to the Real World!!!

    There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!
    you would not have near the "buget crisis" you have now if your moronic governor did not cut taxes when he took office...and let's not forget he declined funds for the high speed rail that would have created jobs and put people to work....he is gonna get recalled.

    Umm our last Gov. never said no to anything. He gave and gave money away until he left office. He tried passing that waste of a high speed rail bill threw at 2am so nobody would notice. Thank goodness that didn't go threw cause the amount of money it would have cost the state to run that high speed rail pr yr would be way too much. And we don't need high speed rail in Wisconsin at this time. Ask the people of the state most agree. I'm not a huge fan of Walker but he is doing what he said he would do. He's not raising taxes and turning off the tap. We can't be doing what we have been doing it's not working.

    The teachers are upset cause this upsets their perfect lives. And yes I said perfect lives.....three months off in the summer and getting paid for it along with other paid days off during the year. Ohh and I wish I had a job where I knew once I retire at the young age of 55 I can get a nice pension for the rest of my life. And what's that you say the only thing I have to do in order to get that is pay a small amount towards it. Well sign me up for that yes please.
    All that Walker is asking is for them to pay their share like the rest of us. It's only fair and about time.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,158
    Umm our last Gov. never said no to anything. He gave and gave money away until he left office. He tried passing that waste of a high speed rail bill threw at 2am so nobody would notice. Thank goodness that didn't go threw cause the amount of money it would have cost the state to run that high speed rail pr yr would be way too much. And we don't need high speed rail in Wisconsin at this time. Ask the people of the state most agree. I'm not a huge fan of Walker but he is doing what he said he would do. He's not raising taxes and turning off the tap. We can't be doing what we have been doing it's not working.
    Wisconsin doesn't need a high speed rail? What? How do you expect people to get back and forth from Sheyboygan and Shawano? What if the residents of Fond u Lac need to race to Eau Claire at 300 mph? :lol:

    Wisconsin already has their version of a high speed rail. They call them snowmobile trails and unless a high speed rail can make stops at all the local taverns, I don't see a costly rail project benefiting the taxpayers.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    Wisconsin Gov. Walker Ginned Up Budget Shortfall To Undercut Worker Rights

    Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times.

    The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately.
    Mad In Madison: Wisconsin Workers Protest Against Governor's Budget Proposals

    Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office.

    "Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes."

    "The state of Wisconsin has not reached the point at which austerity measures are needed," Norman adds.

    In a Wednesday op-ed, the Capitol Times of Madison picked up on this theme.

    In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state's budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.

    To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January.

    You can read the fiscal bureaus report here (PDF). It holds that "more than half" of the new shortfall comes from three of Walker's initiatives:

    * $25 million for an economic development fund for job creation, which still holds $73 million because of anemic job growth.

    * $48 million for private health savings accounts -- a perennial Republican favorite.

    * $67 million for a tax incentive plan that benefits employers, but at levels too low to spur hiring.

    In essence, public workers are being asked to pick up the tab for this agenda. "The provisions in his bill do two things simultaneously," Norman says. "They remove bargaining rights, and having accomplished that, make changes in the benefit packages." That's how Walker's plan saves money. And when it's all said and done, these workers will have lost their bargaining rights going forward in perpetuity.

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011 ... rights.php
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    First off I want to say that Government employees are not the cause of and should not be the only people paying the price when it comes to giant budget deficits. That being said unions are definitely crippling local, state, and even federal employers.

    i work in a union, and would gladly give up their "protection". All they protect is the crappy workers I cannot get rid of ... We have been asked to take leave without pay, we have been asked to pay more for our health insurance, many of the contract agreements have fallen by the way side, and yet I am FORCED to contribute $80 a month so they can give away $87 million to try to keep democrats in office. Please tell me, how is that a good use of the funds? Those 87 million dollars could have just stayed in the union coffers to help pay for our premiums which have gone up or help offset the fact that because of the union I do not get a raise for the next 4 years.

    Wow, so thankful we have this awesome union that sticks me with crappy employees who can call in sick as much as they want without fear...Unions need to start realizing that the "protection" they give the workers cripples the employers...and I am not talking about big business, I am talking about all state and local governments.

    I have to give up all this stuff, (which I am actually fine with as long as I have a job), when in reality if we trimmed the incompetent work force from the books we could all double our benefits and still have money left over to shrink the budget deficits. Uncontrolled spending and a HUGE economic collapse got us in this mess and simply raising taxes won't solve it, it will just prolong it until the next huge deficit when we need to raise taxes again.

    I agree, unions seem to be about protecting the workers but really hurt employers and from there, are killing the chance for any state to rebound from near-bankruptcy. Is this possible? States filing bankruptcy? Many states are in such dire straights financially with unions fighting back against any chance of financial recovery that I wonder what will happen long term with our country literally going under economically. I don't side with the union employees; I side for everyone really waking up and jointly moving toward trying to recover... as extremely difficult and uncomfortable it may be.
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.

    Welcome to the Real World!!!

    There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!

    somebody sounds jealous...

    as for the state being broke...you're wrong...it was slated to have a surplus...

    http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion ... aaaf6.html

    facts hurt...
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,158
    inmytree wrote:
    It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.

    Welcome to the Real World!!!

    There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!

    somebody sounds jealous...

    as for the state being broke...you're wrong...it was slated to have a surplus...

    http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion ... aaaf6.html

    facts hurt...
    Ironic that the last bit of the web URL is the word "opinion". ;)
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    Jason P wrote:
    inmytree wrote:
    It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.

    Welcome to the Real World!!!

    There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!

    somebody sounds jealous...

    as for the state being broke...you're wrong...it was slated to have a surplus...

    http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion ... aaaf6.html

    facts hurt...
    Ironic that the last bit of the web URL is the word "opinion". ;)

    and...?

    anyway, here are some facts from the "opinion" article...

    “Since his inauguration in early January, Walker has approved $140 million in new special-interest spending that includes:

    “• $25 million for an economic development fund for job creation that still has $73 million due to a lack of job creation. Walker is creating a $25 million hole which will not create or retain jobs.

    “• $48 million for private health savings accounts, which primarily benefit the wealthy. A study from the federal Governmental Accountability Office showed the average adjusted gross income of HSA participants was $139,000 and nearly half of HSA participants reported withdrawing nothing from their HSA, evidence that it is serving as a tax shelter for wealthy participants.

    “• $67 million for a tax shift plan, so ill-conceived that at best the benefit provided to ‘job creators’ would be less than a dollar a day per new job, and may be as little as 30 cents a day.”
  • inmytree wrote:
    It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.

    Welcome to the Real World!!!

    There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!

    somebody sounds jealous...

    as for the state being broke...you're wrong...it was slated to have a surplus...

    http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion ... aaaf6.html

    facts hurt...

    If you believe everything you read from a newspaper and a newspaper from Madison then I feel sorry for you. lol Madison aka Mad Town always gets the facts wrong. It's Madison they are still living in the 60' s there. LOL
    Jealous no just happy that State workers finally have to pay their share. It's about time and where do you live again? One thing to see what's going here from far away but to live here and see what's happening first hand it a different thing. I may be wrong maybe your a ex teacher or ex Wisconsin person living someplace else. Congrats lol. ;)

    Most state workers have been going to work this week and doing their jobs. You have the right to protest and it's great to see. But this is getting silly now. It's gonna cost more money now to make up these days without school. Protest but do it on your own time. Don't protest when I'm paying you to work.

    peace
  • inmytreeinmytree Posts: 4,741
    inmytree wrote:
    It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.

    Welcome to the Real World!!!

    There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!

    somebody sounds jealous...

    as for the state being broke...you're wrong...it was slated to have a surplus...

    http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion ... aaaf6.html

    facts hurt...

    If you believe everything you read from a newspaper and a newspaper from Madison then I feel sorry for you. lol Madison aka Mad Town always gets the facts wrong. It's Madison they are still living in the 60' s there. LOL
    Jealous no just happy that State workers finally have to pay their share. It's about time and where do you live again? One thing to see what's going here from far away but to live here and see what's happening first hand it a different thing. I may be wrong maybe your a ex teacher or ex Wisconsin person living someplace else. Congrats lol. ;)

    Most state workers have been going to work this week and doing their jobs. You have the right to protest and it's great to see. But this is getting silly now. It's gonna cost more money now to make up these days without school. Protest but do it on your own time. Don't protest when I'm paying you to work.

    peace

    I see you're playing the willful ignorance card...

    what was incorrect about the information posted...?
  • whygohome wrote:
    I have never been so happy to embrace Marx;


    Um.. what does collective bargaining have to do with Karl Marx?

    Unions have been abused... no denying that. But they've also helped protect the otherwise-voiceless working people on America from abusive corporations whose only goal is to make money, whether they have to screw over their own workers or not.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,158
    inmytree wrote:
    It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.

    Welcome to the Real World!!!

    There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!

    somebody sounds jealous...

    as for the state being broke...you're wrong...it was slated to have a surplus...

    http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion ... aaaf6.html

    facts hurt...
    The memo referenced is correct but it doesn't tell the whole story according to the Milwaukee Journal Carrier. They have $131M this year but the projected spending is $258M, thus a deficit at the end of the year if cuts are not made.

    The unions argue that the common person is being stomped on, but I see it as the union's motto of "take and no give" has finally caught up with them.

    http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116480323.html


    As Gov. Scott Walker pushes for financial concessions from state workers, some opponents of the Republican governor’s proposal are arguing that there isn’t a budget shortfall.

    Walker has said the state faces a $137 million budget shortfall for this fiscal year ending on June 30 and a $3.6 billion shortfall for the next two years.

    Opponents are pointing to a Jan. 31 memo by the Legislature’s nonpartisan budget shop that says that the state will finish this fiscal year with $121.4 million in its main account.

    But there’s more to the memo. The budget surplus will only happen if the state keeps its spending in line with what has been budgeted.

    But the memo lays out about $258 million in spending by the state that is projected to go over budget. That’s in several areas, including health care spending for the poor, prisons and a payment due to Minnesota in December after the canceling of an income tax agreement between the two states.

    Once this over-budget spending is factored in, the state will be unable to pay all its bills this fiscal year if no action is taken.

    “We have $121 million in the bank but if we addressed the $258 million in shortfalls then we’re in the hole by $137 million,” said Bob Lang, the director of the Legislative Fiscal Bureau.
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  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    Jasunmark wrote:

    Unions have been abused... no denying that. But they've also helped protect the otherwise-voiceless working people on America from abusive corporations whose only goal is to make money, whether they have to screw over their own workers or not.
    Right. And why do business owners always get a free pass when it comes to the 'abuse' inflicted upon them by unions? Are they not sitting on the other side of the bargaining table? If they sign a collective, I don't want to hear them cry about how the union is killing their business. You were part of the negotiations, you had a say...
    Also, unions do not just protect their members; they can play a pivotal role in forcing social change...yes, still today. They are organized and have direct contact with large memberships, and often foster enough loyalty among those members that they will put their weight behind the union position in order to influence government. They provide a bit of counterbalance to the influence of the religious right. Any movement organized labour gets behind, gets instant attention from the government.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,158
    Jasunmark wrote:

    Unions have been abused... no denying that. But they've also helped protect the otherwise-voiceless working people on America from abusive corporations whose only goal is to make money, whether they have to screw over their own workers or not.
    Right. And why do business owners always get a free pass when it comes to the 'abuse' inflicted upon them by unions? Are they not sitting on the other side of the bargaining table? If they sign a collective, I don't want to hear them cry about how the union is killing their business. You were part of the negotiations, you had a say...
    Also, unions do not just protect their members; they can play a pivotal role in forcing social change...yes, still today. They are organized and have direct contact with large memberships, and often foster enough loyalty among those members that they will put their weight behind the union position in order to influence government. They provide a bit of counterbalance to the influence of the religious right. Any movement organized labour gets behind, gets instant attention from the government.
    It depends on how large the gun is that was held to the business' head by the union when the collective was signed. At least in construction, contractors are usually tied to liquidated damages in contracts. If the work force strikes, it puts contractors in a very bad situation. It's either go out of business, agree to the demands and lose profit (which is usually 2% of the bid), or play a game of ego chicken where both sides suffer while a few power brokers from each side turn their noses at each other.

    In the Wisconsin case, I would be interested to see if the State asked the unions to make concessions or if they just went on the attack ... which is something that unions often due for no reason.
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  • whygohomewhygohome Posts: 2,305
    Jasunmark wrote:
    whygohome wrote:
    I have never been so happy to embrace Marx;


    Um.. what does collective bargaining have to do with Karl Marx?

    Unions have been abused... no denying that. But they've also helped protect the otherwise-voiceless working people on America from abusive corporations whose only goal is to make money, whether they have to screw over their own workers or not.

    All I meant was that I side with the workers, and that I see the ill effects that capitalism can have on the poor and the lower and middle classes.
  • It's about time they turn the tap off and make State workers pay like the rest of us.



    Right on patrickredeyes :clap::clap::clap: These people have no idea how bad they are pissing off people that work in the private sector. Why the he'll should we be the ones that pay for their healthcare and pensions. This is the same thing that happened in Greece. Also if I remember correctly there were people in media saying that it would never happen here. Well guess what it's here. Some of you guys are completely out of touch and don't realize how bad things are. This is just the beginning.



    Welcome to the Real World!!!

    There is nothing to work out, the State of Wisconsin is broke and this is the only way. You can't give what you don't have. Thank you Gov. Walker for standing up and say NO!!!!
    you would not have near the "buget crisis" you have now if your moronic governor did not cut taxes when he took office...and let's not forget he declined funds for the high speed rail that would have created jobs and put people to work....he is gonna get recalled.

    Umm our last Gov. never said no to anything. He gave and gave money away until he left office. He tried passing that waste of a high speed rail bill threw at 2am so nobody would notice. Thank goodness that didn't go threw cause the amount of money it would have cost the state to run that high speed rail pr yr would be way too much. And we don't need high speed rail in Wisconsin at this time. Ask the people of the state most agree.


    I'm not a huge fan of Walker but he is doing what he said he would do. He's not raising taxes and turning off the tap. We can't be doing what we have been doing it's not working.

    The teachers are upset cause this upsets their perfect lives. And yes I said perfect lives.....three months off in the summer and getting paid for it along with other paid days off during the year. Ohh and I wish I had a job where I knew once I retire at the young age of 55 I can get a nice pension for the rest of my life. And what's that you say the only thing I have to do in order to get that is pay a small amount towards it. Well sign me up for that yes please.
    All that Walker is asking is for them to pay their share like the rest of us. It's only fair and about time.
  • 8181 Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
    screw their full retirements at age 55

    it's retarded how much public people get paid.

    oh, and for the chicken shit politians that ran off to anouther state.....they should be fired on the spot.
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  • go prego pre Posts: 662
    you realize this is not just about teachers? this affects all state workers, except of course, police, firemen and state patrol, who just happened to support walker's election. i think the workers are willing to give more to their insurance and pension, but why does walker need to take away collective bargaining? that is what the portests really are about. cutting that will not save the state any money. that move is purely political, because without unions, the democratic party will lose most of it funding, while republicans will always have the big businesses.

    also, why does this part of the bill need to be passed within a week, while the rest of the budget doesn't get passed for several more months? that alone smells fishy to me. this part of the budget saves less than 10 percent of the 3.6 billion dollar shortfall (if you believe that figure). i want to know where the other 90 percent is coming from, and that is a question the rest of the people of this state should be asking.

    finally, patrickredeyes, state employees are paying just as much of their own salaries (taxes) as you are. my wife's perfect life (she's a teacher) puts us in a 60-year-old, 1200-square-foot house that is in need of many repairs. we, along with our 9-month-old son, live within our means, but never plan on being wealthy - it's just not possible given the profession. we don't have any of the toys (boats, snowmobiles) that our friends have. lower middle class is as good as we'll get. we were planning a vacation out east this summer, driving of course, but we'll now probably have to put that off for at least a year. hopefully, i'll be able to afford the trip to my backyard to see pearl jam if they play alpine this year. i may be forced to sell my vinyl collection and yellow ten to afford it.
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  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    I work with a man whose wife is a teacher and they vacation out out the country (Alaska, Italy...) twice a year. If they can retire at 55 that is part of the salary along with all holidays off. Here in my town the city council members get a pension for only four years on the council and it's concidered part time. CRAZY!
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • go prego pre Posts: 662
    aerial wrote:
    I work with a man whose wife is a teacher and they vacation out out the country (Alaska, Italy...) twice a year. If they can retire at 55 that is part of the salary along with all holidays off. Here in my town the city council members get a pension for only four years on the council and it's concidered part time. CRAZY!
    so, alaska is now out of the country? i'm wondering what kind of money the man you work with makes, because they certainly cannot affort two expensive vacations per year on just the teacher's salary.
    There's a trapdoor in the sun.
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