Don't Ask, Don't Tell repealed

Dirtie_Frank

Here is my argument I served in the Army for 4+ years and I knew a few gay soldiers. We did not care. The thing is and I know I am going to get flamed, no pun intended, is that the segregation between men and women. For instance showers. Now I know that not all gay men want to look at all men and not all men want to look at all women and vice versa. But it would be a little uncomfortable if there was a guy/girl who had a crush on another guy/girl and had to shower with them. Just my opinion. That is just one issue. There is going to have to be a lot of look into EO policies. It will be interesting.

Prince Of Dorkness

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

Here is my argument I served in the Army for 4+ years and I knew a few gay soldiers. We did not care. The thing is and I know I am going to get flamed, no pun intended, is that the segregation between men and women. For instance showers. Now I know that not all gay men want to look at all men and not all men want to look at all women and vice versa. But it would be a little uncomfortable if there was a guy/girl who had a crush on another guy/girl and had to shower with them. Just my opinion. That is just one issue. There is going to have to be a lot of look into EO policies. It will be interesting.

Meh. I'm gay. I go to a gym with a high amount of gay people. Some of them are really ugly. I'm hot. I may as well own that.

I don't necessarily like it when creepy gay men are showering next to me.. even if they're minding their own business.

But I deal.

I figure if just having some guy take a sideways glance at your junk is going to upset you that much, you're probably not man enough to be a marine anyway.

Best of Times

blackredyellow wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

Jasunmark wrote:

When I was growing up, my only role models were Liberace and Boy Fucking George.

If I'd seen that as a gay man I could also be a marine, a soldier, a policeman, a fireman, a hero... maybe I wouldn't have felt as inferior.

Godfather, I do understand your... confusion. You say you don't understand why anyone's sexuality has to be knwon in the military... and really, it doesn't. It doesn't matter at all what someone does in their off-hours.

The problem is that the military has been spending millions of dollars to do secret investigations to find the fags and dykes and kick them out.. even if they've never once mentioned their sexual orientation. If it doesn't matter, that has to be a two-way street... you can't tell someone that it doesn't matter that they're gay and then fire them for it.

I'm just as capable of being in the military as my straight friends are. I shouldn't have to hide and live in fear that someone is going to find my post about wanting to shag Jeff Ament.

With respect, I'll tell you it DOES matter what you do in your off-hours. Military members are told that they wear the uniform 24hrs/day. You break rules off-duty, and its the same as if you were on-duty.
The military never said it didn't matter if you were gay, they always said it's immoral behavior, and the punishment well-defined. They only said they wouldn't ask about it. Adultery is also a punishable offense in the military. Where else can you lose your job for cheating on your spouse? That's what makes the military different, and draws people to serve: Integrity. It's either something you believe in and live by or you don't.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make, except that you are saying that gay people can't have integrity?

read it again w/ an open brain.

Dirtie_Frank

Jasunmark wrote:

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

Here is my argument I served in the Army for 4+ years and I knew a few gay soldiers. We did not care. The thing is and I know I am going to get flamed, no pun intended, is that the segregation between men and women. For instance showers. Now I know that not all gay men want to look at all men and not all men want to look at all women and vice versa. But it would be a little uncomfortable if there was a guy/girl who had a crush on another guy/girl and had to shower with them. Just my opinion. That is just one issue. There is going to have to be a lot of look into EO policies. It will be interesting.

Meh. I'm gay. I go to a gym with a high amount of gay people. Some of them are really ugly. I'm hot. I may as well own that.

I don't necessarily like it when creepy gay men are showering next to me.. even if they're minding their own business.

But I deal.

I figure if just having some guy take a sideways glance at your junk is going to upset you that much, you're probably not man enough to be a marine anyway.

I hear what you are saying, but one, this is supposed to be you battle buddy, not some stranger, Second while I understand your position you are probably more mature then them age wise, some 18-21 year old kid might not be so willing to brush it off. Are they correct? Not in my eyes but it is just food for thought.

Prince Of Dorkness

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

I hear what you are saying, but one, this is supposed to be you battle buddy, not some stranger, Second while I understand your position you are probably more mature then them age wise, some 18-21 year old kid might not be so willing to brush it off. Are they correct? Not in my eyes but it is just food for thought.

Right... the whole "battle buddy" thing is a thing I've never personally experienced. Although most of the 18-21 year old military guys I know (in my line of work, I know a lot), all say it's just not that much of a deal to them.

I guess being gay... I don't like to think that I can't have the same opportunities or chances because some straight guy thinks I'm ikky.

Best of Times

Jasunmark wrote:

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

I hear what you are saying, but one, this is supposed to be you battle buddy, not some stranger, Second while I understand your position you are probably more mature then them age wise, some 18-21 year old kid might not be so willing to brush it off. Are they correct? Not in my eyes but it is just food for thought.

Right... the whole "battle buddy" thing is a thing I've never personally experienced. Although most of the 18-21 year old military guys I know (in my line of work, I know a lot), all say it's just not that much of a deal to them.

I guess being gay... I don't like to think that I can't have the same opportunities or chances because some straight guy thinks I'm ikky.

Ya, I guess once an active-duty military member decides to be a porn actor, its safe to say that the core value integrity has alread been marginalized...

Enuf of bullshit. Lets call it what it is. Gays, like minorities, always say "fair treatment", but thats never good enough. What they really want is "special treatment." And everyone walks on egg-shells b/c of lawsuits.

And to the gay-porn George Lucas on here, a "real man" shouldn't have to put up w/ anyone "taking a sideways glance at their junk" as you so tastelessly put it. Why should you get to sexuall harass other men in the shower and shrug it off like, "If you're man enough to be a Marine, you should tolerate my sexuall observing of your genitals." I submit that as an example of the "special treatment" that you think you deserve.

Ikky? Not the first word that leaps to mind.....

blackredyellow

Best of Times wrote:

Enuf of bullshit. Lets call it what it is. Gays, like minorities, always say "fair treatment", but thats never good enough. What they really want is "special treatment." And everyone walks on egg-shells b/c of lawsuits.

Who exactly is asking for special treatment?

JonnyPistachio

Best of Times wrote:

Ya, I guess once an active-duty military member decides to be a porn actor, its safe to say that the core value integrity has alread been marginalized...

Gimme a break dude. What are you so afraid of?
I'd love to know what kinds of jobs or things were done extracurricularly by the soldiers who were relieved from duty and charged with all sorts of terrible crimes at Abu Ghraib, or the shitfucks who were exposed by wikileaks that massacred those innocent people on a street in Iraq from a helicopter (including severely injuring two children), or the many many other cases that we hear about of soldiers doing horrible things to the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan. I'll bet those folks had a lot of integrity, huh?

I think before they start saying NO to gay pepole in the military, they should find a new way to test some of these peoples abilites to reason that they are letting decide who lives and who dies in another country...

Serious question...So I take it you've NEVER watched porn ? yes/no?

Prince Of Dorkness

Best of Times wrote:

Enuf of bullshit. Lets call it what it is. Gays, like minorities, always say "fair treatment", but thats never good enough. What they really want is "special treatment." And everyone walks on egg-shells b/c of lawsuits.

Wow. What a little crybaby you are.

Funny, but I must have missed the "lawsuits" where gay people sued for "special treatment."

Unless "not being fired for being gay" is what you call "special treatment." In which case then yes... that's what I want.





(oh, and for the record, the George Lucas of porn is actually Michael Lucas. My unofficial title is "The Steven Speilberg of Handicam Porn." A very hard-earned status that I'm quite proud of.

Prince Of Dorkness

Best of Times wrote:

Why should you get to sexuall harass other men in the shower and shrug it off like, "If you're man enough to be a Marine, you should tolerate my sexuall observing of your genitals."

You shouldn't. Nor would anyone suggest that you should.

Sexual harassment shouldn't be tolerated in any way and if there's a gay guy who leers at the other men he's with... yes.. he's not fit for service. Just like the Neo-Nazi who attacks the Jewish soldiers. But not all white men are Neo-Nazis and not all gay men are creepy perverts. Most, in fact, are not.

Best of Times

Jasunmark wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

Why should you get to sexuall harass other men in the shower and shrug it off like, "If you're man enough to be a Marine, you should tolerate my sexuall observing of your genitals."

You shouldn't. Nor would anyone suggest that you should.

Sexual harassment shouldn't be tolerated in any way and if there's a gay guy who leers at the other men he's with... yes.. he's not fit for service. Just like the Neo-Nazi who attacks the Jewish soldiers. But not all white men are Neo-Nazis and not all gay men are creepy perverts. Most, in fact, are not.

You said that a Marine "who couldn't handle some guy taking a sideways glance at his junk" in the shower wasn't "man enough to be a Marine." That is a blatant sexual harrassment scenario, which you suggested a "real man" should tolerate.

I disagree.

Best of Times

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

Ya, I guess once an active-duty military member decides to be a porn actor, its safe to say that the core value integrity has alread been marginalized...

Gimme a break dude. What are you so afraid of?
I'd love to know what kinds of jobs or things were done extracurricularly by the soldiers who were relieved from duty and charged with all sorts of terrible crimes at Abu Ghraib, or the shitfucks who were exposed by wikileaks that massacred those innocent people on a street in Iraq from a helicopter (including severely injuring two children), or the many many other cases that we hear about of soldiers doing horrible things to the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan. I'll bet those folks had a lot of integrity, huh?

I think before they start saying NO to gay pepole in the military, they should find a new way to test some of these peoples abilites to reason that they are letting decide who lives and who dies in another country...

Serious question...So I take it you've NEVER watched porn ? yes/no?

Funny. I didn't know "innocent people" run around with RPGs. You clearly understand nothing about rules of engagement. If you are an American, then no doubt you hate yourself for it, and apologize whenever you get the chance, but I just don't give a shit.

JonnyPistachio

Best of Times wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

Ya, I guess once an active-duty military member decides to be a porn actor, its safe to say that the core value integrity has alread been marginalized...

Gimme a break dude. What are you so afraid of?
I'd love to know what kinds of jobs or things were done extracurricularly by the soldiers who were relieved from duty and charged with all sorts of terrible crimes at Abu Ghraib, or the shitfucks who were exposed by wikileaks that massacred those innocent people on a street in Iraq from a helicopter (including severely injuring two children), or the many many other cases that we hear about of soldiers doing horrible things to the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan. I'll bet those folks had a lot of integrity, huh?

I think before they start saying NO to gay pepole in the military, they should find a new way to test some of these peoples abilites to reason that they are letting decide who lives and who dies in another country...

Serious question...So I take it you've NEVER watched porn ? yes/no?

Funny. I didn't know "innocent people" run around with RPGs. You clearly understand nothing about rules of engagement. If you are an American, then no doubt you hate yourself for it, and apologize whenever you get the chance, but I just don't give a shit.

what? I Never said anything about innocent people with RPGs :roll: -- but I do know that an innocent man who had a CAMERA that was mistaken for an RPG was KILLED on video in Iraq-- so if you're defending those actions, you clearly have no clue about the rules of engagement either. But that takes a lot of integrity to do im sure. I am proud to be an American, but i'm not proud of the pathetic things I hear our millitary taking part of sometimes (now dont get lost here, the pivital word: 'sometimes'), I'm also not pround of the way that gays have been treated unequally. I see it as an embarrasement that we live in such fear of people who are 'differnt'.

JonnyPistachio

Best of Times wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

Ya, I guess once an active-duty military member decides to be a porn actor, its safe to say that the core value integrity has alread been marginalized...

Gimme a break dude. What are you so afraid of?
I'd love to know what kinds of jobs or things were done extracurricularly by the soldiers who were relieved from duty and charged with all sorts of terrible crimes at Abu Ghraib, or the shitfucks who were exposed by wikileaks that massacred those innocent people on a street in Iraq from a helicopter (including severely injuring two children), or the many many other cases that we hear about of soldiers doing horrible things to the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan. I'll bet those folks had a lot of integrity, huh?

I think before they start saying NO to gay pepole in the military, they should find a new way to test some of these peoples abilites to reason that they are letting decide who lives and who dies in another country...

Serious question...So I take it you've NEVER watched porn ? yes/no?

Funny. I didn't know "innocent people" run around with RPGs. You clearly understand nothing about rules of engagement. If you are an American, then no doubt you hate yourself for it, and apologize whenever you get the chance, but I just don't give a shit.

btw, you didnt bother to answer, have you watched porn? yes/no?

Prince Of Dorkness

Best of Times wrote:

You said that a Marine "who couldn't handle some guy taking a sideways glance at his junk" in the shower wasn't "man enough to be a Marine." That is a blatant sexual harrassment scenario, which you suggested a "real man" should tolerate.

I disagree.

One thing I've noticed is that even straight men look at each other in the shower. I've seen my straight friends look at other guys... not in a "sexual" way but just because it's something in front of their faces.

My point is that if that upsets you that much, I'm not sure you're really tough enough to be on the battlefield.

I mean, here you are saying that gay people are asking for "special treatment" when you're asking that the government to protect you from gay men seeing you naked.

I mean really?

I see men naked all the time. Not just at work but at the gym, too. It's just... I mean, I'm gay but I don't have cock on the brain 24/7. Maybe being straight you don't really understand since you don't share a gym locker room with women... seeing naked people isn't that huge a deal.

And.. I mean, just how much time do men spend in the shower in the military anyway?

Many countries have integrated gay men and lesbians into their militaries. And the deaths, disaster and crumbling of the volunteer force hasn't happened in a single one. It's an option I wish had been available to me when I was 18.

Best of Times

JohnnyP:

The "pivotal word" you used was not "sometimes"- it was "hear". You don't know. You "hear". Check your sources.

Best of Times

Jasunmark wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

You said that a Marine "who couldn't handle some guy taking a sideways glance at his junk" in the shower wasn't "man enough to be a Marine." That is a blatant sexual harrassment scenario, which you suggested a "real man" should tolerate.

I disagree.

One thing I've noticed is that even straight men look at each other in the shower. I've seen my straight friends look at other guys... not in a "sexual" way but just because it's something in front of their faces.

My point is that if that upsets you that much, I'm not sure you're really tough enough to be on the battlefield.

I mean, here you are saying that gay people are asking for "special treatment" when you're asking that the government to protect you from gay men seeing you naked.

I mean really?

I see men naked all the time. Not just at work but at the gym, too. It's just... I mean, I'm gay but I don't have cock on the brain 24/7. Maybe being straight you don't really understand since you don't share a gym locker room with women... seeing naked people isn't that huge a deal.

And.. I mean, just how much time do men spend in the shower in the military anyway?

Many countries have integrated gay men and lesbians into their militaries. And the deaths, disaster and crumbling of the volunteer force hasn't happened in a single one. It's an option I wish had been available to me when I was 18.

Thank you. In one post, you've reiterated your support for sexual harrassment by claiming that expecting a sexual harrassment-free workplace is "asking for special treatment"; and minimalized the crime by suggesting that the time subjected to said behavior is minimal, seeing that a person only showers, what, once or twice a day? No matter what sex, or sexual orientation, your argument is abhorrent and any decent person would tell you that.

catefrances

you shouldnt really assume just cause someones looking at your junk that they want to jump your bones.or that theyre even interested in doing so. and at what point does a look become a perv?

Drowned Out

Best of Times wrote:

Thank you. In one post, you've reiterated your support for sexual harrassment by claiming that texpecting a sexual harrassment-free workplace is "asking for special treatment"; and minimalized the crime by suggesting that the time subjected to said behavior is minimal, seeing that a person only showers, what, once or twice a day? No matter what sex, or sexual orientation, your argument is abhorent and any decent person would tell you that.

Do you have a problem showering with straight guys?
Are you SURE they're straight? You could be showering with closeted-gay men and have no problem with it...but the knowledge that they're gay is what is making you uncomforable. That tells me that it is an internal problem YOU have, not a problem the military should define policy as a result of.

Your moral arguments have been put to bed....I can't believe this has become the crux of your argument. How difficult or costly would it be for the military to put up partion walls in communal showers so that the homophobes don't have to be seen naked? Probably a lot less than one frickin dolphin with lasers. I've seen vids from military camps in Iraq, in which it looks like the showers ARE partioned. I don't know if that's the standard...but if so...your complaint becomes about being seen naked while parading around a dressing room with your junk swingin low....which is your choice. Wear a towel, sheesh.

blackredyellow

Best of Times wrote:

Jasunmark wrote:

Best of Times wrote:

You said that a Marine "who couldn't handle some guy taking a sideways glance at his junk" in the shower wasn't "man enough to be a Marine." That is a blatant sexual harrassment scenario, which you suggested a "real man" should tolerate.

I disagree.

One thing I've noticed is that even straight men look at each other in the shower. I've seen my straight friends look at other guys... not in a "sexual" way but just because it's something in front of their faces.

My point is that if that upsets you that much, I'm not sure you're really tough enough to be on the battlefield.

I mean, here you are saying that gay people are asking for "special treatment" when you're asking that the government to protect you from gay men seeing you naked.

I mean really?

I see men naked all the time. Not just at work but at the gym, too. It's just... I mean, I'm gay but I don't have cock on the brain 24/7. Maybe being straight you don't really understand since you don't share a gym locker room with women... seeing naked people isn't that huge a deal.

And.. I mean, just how much time do men spend in the shower in the military anyway?

Many countries have integrated gay men and lesbians into their militaries. And the deaths, disaster and crumbling of the volunteer force hasn't happened in a single one. It's an option I wish had been available to me when I was 18.

Thank you. In one post, you've reiterated your support for sexual harrassment by claiming that texpecting a sexual harrassment-free workplace is "asking for special treatment"; and minimalized the crime by suggesting that the time subjected to said behavior is minimal, seeing that a person only showers, what, once or twice a day? No matter what sex, or sexual orientation, your argument is abhorent and any decent person would tell you that.

A bit oversensitive?

If I'm showering with 25 guys and a couple happen to be gay, what the hell difference does it make to me if a gay guy or straight guy glances my way? You'd honestly feel harassed?

Now if the guy was staring at me and acting creepy and stuff, then yes, that is a problem and there should be a punishment for that... no one is saying that should be allowed.

I don't really see what the big problem is... if a soldier hits on another soldier and makes them feel uncomfortable, there should be sexual harassment rules that exist whether it's straight or gay.

And honestly, it's not like a bunch of gay people are going to all of a suddenly enlist now... there were gay people in the army before, but now they just don't have to lie about it.