Fidel Castro tells Ahmadinejad: Stop denying the holocaust

yosi

michelle822 wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

...and I'm betting that line irks him because it is often a fallback position for Pro-Israeli's who begin to lose ground in the Israel/Palestine debate, and has been used (I don't believe by ogre?) as partial justification for what many deem another genocide.

Oh, I know exactly where this sentiment comes from. But that wasn't even mentioned here in this thread so if that's the reason he did it I submit that it was completely pre-emptive and unjustified.

And I find it hypocritical that people who bristle at the idea of the Holocaust being inserted into the debate about the current situation in Israel don't hesitate to insert their feelings about the current situation in Israel into a discussion of the Holocaust.

Well said.

yosi

Cosmo wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

Allow me to play devil's advocate and ask for clarification of the statement 'there is nothing that compares to the holocaust'.....? Out of that entire article, I found that an odd statement to highlight. Kinda sensational.

The holocaust is not history's only example of genocide. Does modern history start in 1939? What are we comparing here? Death tolls? Methods?

...
I understand that you are playing the part of the Devil's Advocate... and I looked at that side of the ledger, too. The Turkish slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians comes to mind.
But the Holocaust perpetrated by the Germans in the 1940s was so systematic... with efficiency of an auto manufacturing or a meat processing plant, it was horrifying. It brought genocide into the industrial age.
So, while there certainly are comparisons to be drawn... the holocaust stands in the forefront of Man's capability of inhumanity.

You could also mention the Ukrainian famine engineered by Stalin (not to mention the general purging of just about everyone), but I would agree that to some degree we're not just talking about numbers, but the fact that the holocaust was carried out on an industrial scale by industrial means.

fuck

ogre1213 wrote:

_outlaw wrote:

ogre1213 wrote:

There is nothing that compares to the Holocaust."

:roll:

you are disgusting

why? cause I don't think the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews deserves its own pedestal on top of every other historical crime? I mean seriously, "nothing compares to the Holocaust"? what the hell? there have been tons of genocides that are often ignored, including the fact that more Russian civilians died during the Holocaust than Jews. But all of these are overlooked by boneheads who don't know shit about history because the Holocaust was disgustingly exploited for political purposes over the past several decades and shoved into everyone's face at the expense of tons of other people who died in similar or even worse ways. I mean, 800,000 Rwandans were killed, by hand and gun, not in industrial death camps; to me, that is just as horrible, in that, these people were just raped, tortured, and murdered in cold blood, face-to-face. my point is that to make such a statement like that, and the fact that out of everything you highlighted it, is stupid. there should be no ranking of massacres; i get the same visceral reaction when hearing of the few thousand who died in the sabra and shatila refugee camps in 1982 as the holocaust. discussing numbers, the manner of death, exact composition of who died i think is irrelevant, and only leads to controversy that detracts from the main point -- that is, past suffering shouldn't be used to justify imposing suffering.

it is because I have respect for those who suffered during the massacre that I think it's particularly disgusting how their memories are abused for political purposes. this is a perfect example. while i don't in any way mean to defend Ahmadinejad, this article is used to demonize him for political purposes. there are examples of many people in countries friendly to Israel who often say horribly anti-Semitic things including holocaust denial, but they get ignored especially by mainstream media because it would hurt them politically to target such people. But because it is politically convenient to target Iran, they do so.

Last, I disagree with michelle when she said (roughly) that "it's hypocritical to mention the holocaust in a political context" due to the fact that this is not a historical discussion on the holocaust and the article has obvious political implications.

Drowned Out

There are a few examples of genocide in the seven-digit death toll range. The oft-overlooked 'settling' of the Western hemisphere, and the 'taming' of it's 'savages', by most estimates, trumps them all....but these comparisons turn atrocities into competitions...that's why the "nothing compares" highlight rubbed ME the wrong way.

I think ogre was being provocative (read: trolling) by highlighting that line...he knew full well he'd be called on it.

Does anyone believe we won't hear from ogre again in this thread, or what he meant by supporting that statement?

JOEJOEJOE

why? cause I don't think the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews deserves its own pedestal on top of every other historical crime? I mean seriously, "nothing compares to the Holocaust"? what the hell? there have been tons of genocides that are often ignored, including the fact that more Russian civilians died during the Holocaust than Jews. But all of these are overlooked by boneheads who don't know shit about history because the Holocaust was disgustingly exploited for political purposes over the past several decades and shoved into everyone's face at the expense of tons of other people who died in similar or even worse ways. I mean, 800,000 Rwandans were killed, by hand and gun, not in industrial death camps; to me, that is just as horrible, in that, these people were just raped, tortured, and murdered in cold blood, face-to-face. my point is that to make such a statement like that, and the fact that out of everything you highlighted it, is stupid. there should be no ranking of massacres; i get the same visceral reaction when hearing of the few thousand who died in the sabra and shatila refugee camps in 1982 as the holocaust. discussing numbers, the manner of death, exact composition of who died i think is irrelevant, and only leads to controversy that detracts from the main point -- that is, past suffering shouldn't be used to justify imposing suffering.

it is because I have respect for those who suffered during the massacre that I think it's particularly disgusting how their memories are abused for political purposes. this is a perfect example. while i don't in any way mean to defend Ahmadinejad, this article is used to demonize him for political purposes. there are examples of many people in countries friendly to Israel who often say horribly anti-Semitic things including holocaust denial, but they get ignored especially by mainstream media because it would hurt them politically to target such people. But because it is politically convenient to target Iran, they do so.

Last, I disagree with michelle when she said (roughly) that "it's hypocritical to mention the holocaust in a political context" due to the fact that this is not a historical discussion on the holocaust and the article has obvious political implications.[/quote]




What are the roots of your deep feelings towards anything related to Judaism?

BTW, Happy Rosh Hassanah!

I am surprised no one has complained how we run on a different calendar!

Cosmo

Drowned Out wrote:

There are a few examples of genocide in the seven-digit death toll range. The oft-overlooked 'settling' of the Western hemisphere, and the 'taming' of it's 'savages', by most estimates, trumps them all....but these comparisons turn atrocities into competitions...that's why the "nothing compares" highlight rubbed ME the wrong way.

I think ogre was being provocative (read: trolling) by highlighting that line...he knew full well he'd be called on it.

Does anyone believe we won't hear from ogre again in this thread, or what he meant by supporting that statement?

...
The guy is just stiring the pot...
...
I don't think anyone believes this is a competition, other that the most dim-witted amongst us... or that anyone believes other genocides are lessened. But, when you mention the term, 'Genocide'... the Holocaust always pops to the forefront. Why is that?
And when I say it was so industrial... I meant it was so nonchalant... indifferent... almost like a place of employment. Yeah, getting chased down and macheted is horrific... but, the hatred is clearly visible. The hatred in the holocaust wasn't as clearly visable... and more like processing raw materials or leather goods.
...
Finally, there is a huge difference between saying there were worse genocides in Man's history... and denying that the Holocaust never occurred. Which is the basis of this thread.

TriumphantAngel

Eisenhower – Dead
Kennedy - dead
Johnson - dead
Nixon - dead
Ford - dead
Reagan - dead


Castro: "Ahmadinejad is Anti-Semitic. Nobody's been slandered more than the Jews.

The Missile Crisis wasn't worth it all. Oh, and I win."

Smellyman

michelle822 wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

Allow me to play devil's advocate and ask for clarification of the statement 'there is nothing that compares to the holocaust'.....? Out of that entire article, I found that an odd statement to highlight. Kinda sensational.

The holocaust is not history's only example of genocide. Does modern history start in 1939? What are we comparing here? Death tolls? Methods?

Do you know of another war or genocide that killed 11 million people?

Whatever anyone's legitimate problems with the current situation between Israelis and Palestinians, there's really no need to stoop to rolling your eyes at how horrible the Holocaust was - for humanity, not just for Jews.

Mao Tse Tung. Perhaps over 40 million during the cultural revolution...

Commy

Smellyman wrote:

michelle822 wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

Allow me to play devil's advocate and ask for clarification of the statement 'there is nothing that compares to the holocaust'.....? Out of that entire article, I found that an odd statement to highlight. Kinda sensational.

The holocaust is not history's only example of genocide. Does modern history start in 1939? What are we comparing here? Death tolls? Methods?

Do you know of another war or genocide that killed 11 million people?

Whatever anyone's legitimate problems with the current situation between Israelis and Palestinians, there's really no need to stoop to rolling your eyes at how horrible the Holocaust was - for humanity, not just for Jews.

Mao Tse Tung. Perhaps over 40 million during the cultural revolution...

the slaughter of american indians. also said to be 40 million.

NoK

If its turned into a pissing match...

"About 2 million Cambodians are estimated to have died in waves of murder, torture, and starvation, aimed particularly at the educated and intellectual elite. Following their leader Pol Pot, the Khmer Rouge imposed an extreme form of social engineering on Cambodian society — a radical form of agrarian communism where the whole population had to work in collective farms or forced labor projects. In terms of the number of people killed as a proportion of the population (est. 7.1 million people, as of 1975), it was the most lethal regime of the 20th century."

yosi

_outlaw wrote:

- that is, past suffering shouldn't be used to justify imposing suffering.

it is because I have respect for those who suffered during the massacre that I think it's particularly disgusting how their memories are abused for political purposes. this is a perfect example. while i don't in any way mean to defend Ahmadinejad, this article is used to demonize him for political purposes. there are examples of many people in countries friendly to Israel who often say horribly anti-Semitic things including holocaust denial, but they get ignored especially by mainstream media because it would hurt them politically to target such people. But because it is politically convenient to target Iran, they do so.

Last, I disagree with michelle when she said (roughly) that "it's hypocritical to mention the holocaust in a political context" due to the fact that this is not a historical discussion on the holocaust and the article has obvious political implications.

Is it really surprising that the instances of holocaust denial by Iranian leaders get more media attention than when some random schmuck denies the holocaust? To begin with, Ahmadinejad is the leader OF AN ENTIRE F-ING COUNTRY! Also, he's said publicly that he seeks the destruction of Israel (you know, the state of the people targeted by the holocaust, which he denies happened), and he's in the process of building illegal nuclear weapons. As Stephen Colbert put it so eloquently the other day (read with loads of sarcasm) "yeah, why would the Israelis be paranoid about a guy who says he want's to kill them building nuclear weapons?" Anyways, I don't think that the holocaust is used to justify political actions nearly as much as you claim it is. Is it often mentioned in debate? Yes, but I think that has much more to do with the emotional significance of the event for Jews, than with a conscience strategy to exploit the event for political gain/cover.

redrock

yosi wrote:

_outlaw wrote:

....and he's in the process of building illegal nuclear weapons. ....

How uncanny.... just like Israel. Though Israel is not 'in the process' but 'has'.

fuck

Cosmo wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

There are a few examples of genocide in the seven-digit death toll range. The oft-overlooked 'settling' of the Western hemisphere, and the 'taming' of it's 'savages', by most estimates, trumps them all....but these comparisons turn atrocities into competitions...that's why the "nothing compares" highlight rubbed ME the wrong way.

I think ogre was being provocative (read: trolling) by highlighting that line...he knew full well he'd be called on it.

Does anyone believe we won't hear from ogre again in this thread, or what he meant by supporting that statement?

...
The guy is just stiring the pot...
...
I don't think anyone believes this is a competition, other that the most dim-witted amongst us... or that anyone believes other genocides are lessened. But, when you mention the term, 'Genocide'... the Holocaust always pops to the forefront. Why is that?
And when I say it was so industrial... I meant it was so nonchalant... indifferent... almost like a place of employment. Yeah, getting chased down and macheted is horrific... but, the hatred is clearly visible. The hatred in the holocaust wasn't as clearly visable... and more like processing raw materials or leather goods.
...
Finally, there is a huge difference between saying there were worse genocides in Man's history... and denying that the Holocaust never occurred. Which is the basis of this thread.

umm.... sorry, is there another way to interpret "nothing else compares to the Holocaust" ??

fuck

yosi wrote:

Is it really surprising that the instances of holocaust denial by Iranian leaders get more media attention than when some random schmuck denies the holocaust? To begin with, Ahmadinejad is the leader OF AN ENTIRE F-ING COUNTRY!

That's fine, except I'm not talking about random schmucks, I'm talking about other leaders of entire f-ing countries.... and there are many cases of this; Anwar Sadat who made peace with Israel was a notorious anti-semite, even after he made peace. There are several other similar cases when it comes to different idiot arab journalists who politically serve Israel's purpose but are known anti-semites. the current mubarak regime in egypt is pretty anti-semitic as well, in fact there was a famous article where netanyahu even says to ignore anti-semitism in egypt because of their important political role (in issues like gaza, etc)...

Also, he's said publicly that he seeks the destruction of Israel (you know, the state of the people targeted by the holocaust, which he denies happened), and he's in the process of building illegal nuclear weapons. As Stephen Colbert put it so eloquently the other day (read with loads of sarcasm) "yeah, why would the Israelis be paranoid about a guy who says he want's to kill them building nuclear weapons?"

Well I disagree with Colbert; I don't think there is enough to justify that Ahmadinejad wants to, or even has the capabilities, to kill Israelis. On the other hand, Israel has been the one threatening Iran, and they have a history of targeting and bombing many, many countries in the region, so..........

Anyways, I don't think that the holocaust is used to justify political actions nearly as much as you claim it is. Is it often mentioned in debate? Yes, but I think that has much more to do with the emotional significance of the event for Jews, than with a conscience strategy to exploit the event for political gain/cover.

that's fine, I don't intend on arguing this any further, especially because I think there has been excellent scholarship done on this topic already if anyone is interested (see: Norman Finkelstein - The Holocaust Industry)

Commy

TriumphantAngel wrote:

Eisenhower – Dead
Kennedy - dead
Johnson - dead
Nixon - dead
Ford - dead
Reagan - dead


Castro: "Ahmadinejad is Anti-Semitic. Nobody's been slandered more than the Jews.

The Missile Crisis wasn't worth it all. Oh, and I win."

hahaha.

Cosmo

_outlaw wrote:

umm.... sorry, is there another way to interpret "nothing else compares to the Holocaust" ??

...
Yes... by considering the source... some guy who is quoting Fidel Castro.

John Van Nord

Well, over here in Sweden, and basically the rest of Scandinavia, and I know thats the way it is in many other countrys too. Seriously, doesnt muslims in U.S have to take lots of prejudice to? Because of the whole terror thing?!?

nuffingman wrote:

John Van Nord wrote:

"No one blames the muslims for anything"!! Seriously, i dont know excactly how things are on cuba, but over here the muslims are blamed for everything between terrorism, killing our culture, raping our women, taking our jobs and fillin up our jails. if guilty or not, they have to deal with a lots of prejudice.

this is facts and does not by any means reflect my opinion.

I'm not trying to be funny but where is "over here"? There are people from all over the world on this board. In England we don't blame Muslims for everything. The Prime Minister gets that accolade.

Newch91

Yeah, they're getting a lot of prejudice. It's crazy. It's so stupid.

John Van Nord wrote:

Well, over here in Sweden, and basically the rest of Scandinavia, and I know thats the way it is in many other countrys too. Seriously, doesnt muslims in U.S have to take lots of prejudice to? Because of the whole terror thing?!?

nuffingman wrote:

John Van Nord wrote:

"No one blames the muslims for anything"!! Seriously, i dont know excactly how things are on cuba, but over here the muslims are blamed for everything between terrorism, killing our culture, raping our women, taking our jobs and fillin up our jails. if guilty or not, they have to deal with a lots of prejudice.

this is facts and does not by any means reflect my opinion.

I'm not trying to be funny but where is "over here"? There are people from all over the world on this board. In England we don't blame Muslims for everything. The Prime Minister gets that accolade.

Byrnzie

ogre1213 wrote:

So I am officially a Fidel Castro fan!

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/fid ... t-1.312815


Fidel Castro tells Ahmadinejad: Stop denying the holocaust
'The Jews have lived an existence that is much harder than ours. There is nothing that compares to the Holocaust,' former Cuban leader tells U.S. journal The Atlantic.

By Natasha Mozgovaya and Haaretz Service
Tags: Israel news Jewish World anti-Semitism Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Cuba's former leader Fidel Castro has urged Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to stop slandering the Jews, according to an article published on the U.S. website The Atlantic on Tuesday.

The ageing revolutionary devoted much of a five-hour conversation to the issue of anti-Semitism, wrote Jeffrey Goldberg, who interviewed Castro in the Cuban capital Havana.


Fidel Castro

Photo by: AP

Castro told The Atlantic that the Iranian government should understand the consequences anti-Semitism.

"This went on for maybe two thousand years," he said. "I don't think anyone has been slandered more than the Jews. I would say much more than the Muslims. They have been slandered much more than the Muslims because they are blamed and slandered for everything. No one blames the Muslims for anything."

He added: "The Jews have lived an existence that is much harder than ours. There is nothing that compares to the Holocaust."

Asked by Goldberg if he would repeat his comments to Ahmadinejad, Castro said. "I am saying this so you can communicate it."

Following the interview, Goldberg spoke with Haaretz about his impression of the thinking behind Castro's comments.

"I think he [Castro] realizes he's gone too far in certain criticisms of Israel," Goldberg said.

"I think he wants to be a player in this issue; and I think he's genuinely offended by Holocaust denial."
Ahmadinejad has publicy called the Holocaust "a myth", claiming Jews exaggerated the Nazi genocide to win sympathy from European governemnts.

Great, now can you point out where Ahmadinejad denied the holocaust? Thanks.

Or is this just another lie like the one which claims Ahmadinejad wants Israel wiped off the map?

satansbed

Byrnzie wrote:

ogre1213 wrote:

So I am officially a Fidel Castro fan!

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/fid ... t-1.312815


Fidel Castro tells Ahmadinejad: Stop denying the holocaust
'The Jews have lived an existence that is much harder than ours. There is nothing that compares to the Holocaust,' former Cuban leader tells U.S. journal The Atlantic.

By Natasha Mozgovaya and Haaretz Service
Tags: Israel news Jewish World anti-Semitism Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Cuba's former leader Fidel Castro has urged Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to stop slandering the Jews, according to an article published on the U.S. website The Atlantic on Tuesday.

The ageing revolutionary devoted much of a five-hour conversation to the issue of anti-Semitism, wrote Jeffrey Goldberg, who interviewed Castro in the Cuban capital Havana.


Fidel Castro

Photo by: AP

Castro told The Atlantic that the Iranian government should understand the consequences anti-Semitism.

"This went on for maybe two thousand years," he said. "I don't think anyone has been slandered more than the Jews. I would say much more than the Muslims. They have been slandered much more than the Muslims because they are blamed and slandered for everything. No one blames the Muslims for anything."

He added: "The Jews have lived an existence that is much harder than ours. There is nothing that compares to the Holocaust."

Asked by Goldberg if he would repeat his comments to Ahmadinejad, Castro said. "I am saying this so you can communicate it."

Following the interview, Goldberg spoke with Haaretz about his impression of the thinking behind Castro's comments.

"I think he [Castro] realizes he's gone too far in certain criticisms of Israel," Goldberg said.

"I think he wants to be a player in this issue; and I think he's genuinely offended by Holocaust denial."
Ahmadinejad has publicy called the Holocaust "a myth", claiming Jews exaggerated the Nazi genocide to win sympathy from European governemnts.

Great, now can you point out where Ahmadinejad denied the holocaust? Thanks.

Or is this just another lie like the one which claims Ahmadinejad wants Israel wiped off the map?

http://www.france24.com/en/20090919-wes ... i-semitism well there is this