i am not putting words in your mouth. i am simply taking things you have said and positions you have maintained in your posts the last year or so. you never ever answered my questions about why do you care so much about those that lost family members when many of them are ok with this mosque? they are not all vindictive like you. and YES YOU HAVE GONE ON RECORD NUMEROUS TIMES SAYING YOU ARE AGAINST "OBAMACARE" and national single payor health insurance. you have posted several links to blogs blasting it. you have said it is socialism and that the insurance companies would suffer if they were not allowed to make a profit, so please stop acting like you have never held that position. anybody that has spent more than a few hours on this forum would back me on that. also, i said that people that are dying that are uninsured are no better or no worse than those that died on 9/11. it is the same tragic thing. you take what i said and skewed it into people getting thrown out on the street for not having insurance(?????) when i said that those people that are allowed to die due to having a pre-existing condition were murdered by the insurance companies with the same zeal that the 9/11 attackers murdered those victims that day. i brought up that point because you are gung ho about being anti mosque, and you are gung ho about anti national health care. and if you want to have a debate about the constitution i will have that debate with you. pm me if you like. the FACT is you are using the constitution in cases where it suits you, and if it does not suit you you diminish the importance of that document. in this case, the constitution is clearly showing they have the right to build that center and they can put it on top of ground zero if they wanted to. so because prfectlefts is angry they have to build it x amount of blocks down the street? give me a break...
Yes.. I don't like Obama care. Maybe if you read the bill you might actually see where Im coming from. When it kicks in 5 10 years from now then you will see just how big of a disater it really is. and I don't like the other systems wheather it be single payer system or a national healthcare system.. But that doesn't mean Im a big fan of Ins companies either.. Are they flawed ? Yeah Sure they have problems.. But that doesn't mean we should destroy the best healthcare system in the world IMO.. and replace it with a gov run program. For gods sake man everything the gov touches practically they fuck up.. We could have adressed the people that need it.. This number 30 million or whatever figure it is that you guys on the left love to use,just how many of those people choose not to have INS ? There were some on the right that had some good ideas but Obama wanted nothing to do with it. Because it's not about helping people that need it for him it's about redistibuting wealth from others. Maybe one day you will finally realize that. But my guess is that you already do bcos you agree with his ideology..
As far as this whole thing with this Mosque goes.. Ill say it again Yes they have a right to build it thier. Our constituion Protects those rights.. I just don't think the location is a good Idea. Why not build it a mile away. Why there ? Shouldn't they honor the request of the famalies that don't want it their.. Don't thier voices matter ??
Not to be nit-picky here or anything, but Kurt Westergaard is alive. Not dead. Was never burned. If you're going to make insane accusations, at least figure out what you're talking about first. It's hard to take your rambling seriously when you can't tell the difference between someone burned to death, and someone alive who has never been set on fire in the first place. I actually found the article you must have read referring to his death, and all I can say is that if you believe that, it explains where you're coming from with many of your views. You got that, McFly?
There's the link and thier are dozens of others that say the same thing... So who's wrong ??
IN an investigative report, an Arabic newspaper, published from Saudi Arabia, has claimed that Kurt Westergaard, Danish cartoonist, has died in a fire incident.
The Danish authorities are trying their best to hide his death, who have found no clue about how the fire broke out and why only the room in which blasphemer Kurt was staying had been damaged. The initial investigation shows that the cartoonist, who committed blasphemy by drawing objectionable caricatures of Prophet (Peace be Upon Him), was provided complete security, as he had received many threats from across the globe after the Muslims had been enraged due to the repeated publication of the caricatures in the European press.
In February 2008, three Arab nationals were arrested for their alleged involvement in plotting the death of Kurt. A Somali man had also tried to stab him to death but the policemen deputed at his house saved him miraculously.
It is worth recalling that the blasphemous cartoons first appeared in Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten.
The investigative report says the incident took place some days back in which Westergaard was burnt seriously and died on the spot, but the international media is completely silent about it. The report further claims that some eyewitnesses are also available to testify the happenings. The Danish authorities have so far been unable to find any hint about the cause of fire, as they had started investigations while keeping in mind some external conspiracy to kill the blasphemer.
This news was published
this article reads like a transcript of a bin laden propaganda tape...
whatever man...like I said there are other links that say the guy is dead.. So just who are the intolerant ones. I think we have been more that tolerant when it comes to people of Islamic faith..
So, what do you propose be done here really?
It's private property, and they are not breaking any laws or codes.
Pass a law that says you can't build mosques where people might take offense?
What's wrong with the amount of protests here is firstly that these people and other american muslims have nothing to do with 9/11. Nothing. Zip. Nada.
Why should they be denied to build according to code on their own property with their own money in any way that doesn't make the US look like intolerant hypocrites?
And there are mosques in lower Manhattan, should they be taken down as well? How close is far enough away anyway? 10 blocks? 20? Canada?
So, what do you suppose be done about this?
No one is denying them anything.. People are simply saying it's not a good idea to build it so close, Yes there is something like 30 mosques in manhatten so it's not like their are a shortage of places for muslims to worship.. and no one is advocating that any Mosque should be taken Down . :roll:
i am not putting words in your mouth. i am simply taking things you have said and positions you have maintained in your posts the last year or so. you never ever answered my questions about why do you care so much about those that lost family members when many of them are ok with this mosque? they are not all vindictive like you. and YES YOU HAVE GONE ON RECORD NUMEROUS TIMES SAYING YOU ARE AGAINST "OBAMACARE" and national single payor health insurance. you have posted several links to blogs blasting it. you have said it is socialism and that the insurance companies would suffer if they were not allowed to make a profit, so please stop acting like you have never held that position. anybody that has spent more than a few hours on this forum would back me on that. also, i said that people that are dying that are uninsured are no better or no worse than those that died on 9/11. it is the same tragic thing. you take what i said and skewed it into people getting thrown out on the street for not having insurance(?????) when i said that those people that are allowed to die due to having a pre-existing condition were murdered by the insurance companies with the same zeal that the 9/11 attackers murdered those victims that day. i brought up that point because you are gung ho about being anti mosque, and you are gung ho about anti national health care. and if you want to have a debate about the constitution i will have that debate with you. pm me if you like. the FACT is you are using the constitution in cases where it suits you, and if it does not suit you you diminish the importance of that document. in this case, the constitution is clearly showing they have the right to build that center and they can put it on top of ground zero if they wanted to. so because prfectlefts is angry they have to build it x amount of blocks down the street? give me a break...
Yes.. I don't like Obama care. Maybe if you read the bill you might actually see where Im coming from. When it kicks in 5 10 years from now then you will see just how big of a disater it really is. and I don't like the other systems wheather it be single payer system or a national healthcare system.. But that doesn't mean Im a big fan of Ins companies either.. Are they flawed ? Yeah Sure they have problems.. But that doesn't mean we should destroy the best healthcare system in the world IMO.. and replace it with a gov run program. For gods sake man everything the gov touches practically they fuck up.. We could have adressed the people that need it.. This number 30 million or whatever figure it is that you guys on the left love to use,just how many of those people choose not to have INS ? There were some on the right that had some good ideas but Obama wanted nothing to do with it. Because it's not about helping people that need it for him it's about redistibuting wealth from others. Maybe one day you will finally realize that. But my guess is that you already do bcos you agree with his ideology..
As far as this whole thing with this Mosque goes.. Ill say it again Yes they have a right to build it thier. Our constituion Protects those rights.. I just don't think the location is a good Idea. Why not build it a mile away. Why there ? Shouldn't they honor the request of the famalies that don't want it their.. Don't thier voices matter ??
a few thought on this post....
who has the best health care system in the world in your eyes????
actually it is 47 million uninsured....more people die everyday due to lack of insurance coverage than died on 9/11...why are the 9/11 victims so much more precious in your eyes?
so do you have the wealth that obama is trying to re-distribute? :roll:
why is it not a good idea? why? you have not explained it other than saying you think it is disrespectful to the families of the victims. i get that. but you have no right to tell them what to do with the land they are leasing and the building they are building. so rather than acknowledge that and move on with your life you are clinging to some bullshit excuse that it offends the families. based on those i know that lost loved ones that day that i have spoken to, myself included, i find your intolerance and your reasoning, or lack of reasoning, and emotional response very offensive. we have moved on, why can't you? stopping this mosque will not bring the dead back and building it will not tarnish their memory.
as many many posters have asked you, what in your eyes is an acceptable distance?
also, i believe you never clarified your post that triumphantangel asked you about. i and others are waiting for that as well...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Be careful about poking at each other and taunting.
Be careful with contentious, accusatory posts and personal comments. TONE is important when communicating through text. Reposting this here...
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It seems people are getting personal and offending each other on purpose. It's not ok. If you can't debate the topic without getting personal, you don't belong here and will be leaving the forums. So just remember, if you're not following these guidelines, you're banning yourselves. Personal grudges will open the exit door for you. Let the bannings begin.
Not to be nit-picky here or anything, but Kurt Westergaard is alive. Not dead. Was never burned. If you're going to make insane accusations, at least figure out what you're talking about first. It's hard to take your rambling seriously when you can't tell the difference between someone burned to death, and someone alive who has never been set on fire in the first place. I actually found the article you must have read referring to his death, and all I can say is that if you believe that, it explains where you're coming from with many of your views. You got that, McFly?
There's the link and thier are dozens of others that say the same thing... So who's wrong ??
IN an investigative report, an Arabic newspaper, published from Saudi Arabia, has claimed that Kurt Westergaard, Danish cartoonist, has died in a fire incident.
The Danish authorities are trying their best to hide his death, who have found no clue about how the fire broke out and why only the room in which blasphemer Kurt was staying had been damaged. The initial investigation shows that the cartoonist, who committed blasphemy by drawing objectionable caricatures of Prophet (Peace be Upon Him), was provided complete security, as he had received many threats from across the globe after the Muslims had been enraged due to the repeated publication of the caricatures in the European press.
In February 2008, three Arab nationals were arrested for their alleged involvement in plotting the death of Kurt. A Somali man had also tried to stab him to death but the policemen deputed at his house saved him miraculously.
It is worth recalling that the blasphemous cartoons first appeared in Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten.
The investigative report says the incident took place some days back in which Westergaard was burnt seriously and died on the spot, but the international media is completely silent about it. The report further claims that some eyewitnesses are also available to testify the happenings. The Danish authorities have so far been unable to find any hint about the cause of fire, as they had started investigations while keeping in mind some external conspiracy to kill the blasphemer.
This news was published
"It is worth recalling that the blasphemous cartoons first appeared in Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten."
"The Danish authorities have so far been unable to find any hint about the cause of fire, as they had started investigations while keeping in mind some external conspiracy to kill the blasphemer."
"all of them, except Kurt, had opted to go underground to escape the public wrath after the Muslims around the world had participated in protest rallies which were attended by millions of people."
"The Saudi newspaper says the death of Kurt shows how powerful Allah Almighty is, as despite the foolproof security arrangements, none was able to save him from his tragic end."
Interestingly enough, this one article (not dozens of articles, just the same one being cut and pasted by a few blogs) does not link to the mysterious article published in "...an Arabic newspaper, published from Saudi Arabia..." - in fact it doesn't even name the newspaper in question. Shouldn't that set your bullshit detectors off? The international media isn't picking up on the story because it's not a story. Or, maybe the story is that he's now undead, because he has given interviews since his "death" where he has announced he will be publishing his memoirs later this year.
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
jesus you guys are so fucking hard headed. How mant damn times do I have to say it.. They have every right to build it there becuase our constituion protects freedom of religion.. But that doesnt mean that they should. though... Fuck !!!
Then please answer my question. Exactly how far from Ground Zero should the mosque be? Because it seems to me that people living quite some distance from Ground Zero think mosques are being built too close to them, too:
As far as this whole thing with this Mosque goes.. Ill say it again Yes they have a right to build it thier. Our constituion Protects those rights.. I just don't think the location is a good Idea. Why not build it a mile away. Why there ? Shouldn't they honor the request of the famalies that don't want it their.. Don't thier voices matter ??
My apologies - I didn't see that you had answered the question I asked you here.
The problem here is that nobody can agree on how far away from Ground Zero is far enough away. You said a mile away, while other people have said 10 miles away (not on this message board - that was in an interview on TV). There seems to be no consensus among the people who don't want it built there regarding the appropriate distance.
The supporters of the mosque, like myself, don't see the location as an issue. If they want it built there, I believe they should be able to build it there. What happened on 9/11 was a tragedy that was perpetrated by a fringe group of lunatic Muslims, all blindly following a colossal raving lunatic. I don't think the entire religion should be persecuted against as a result. Certainly the voices of the 9/11 victims' families matter - they're protected by the same First Amendment that protects Muslims in America, and they have a clear and obvious emotional attachment to the site.
But at the end of the day if you force the Cordoba Initiative to build elsewhere, what message are you sending? The center bills itself as "Improving Muslim-West Relations" - it's an olive branch. Beside the fact that you'd be trampling on the First Amendment, if you force the center to be built elsewhere, you're slapping away the olive branch and lowering yourself to the level of the extremists. Christians have come out in support of the center - which includes a fitness center and meeting rooms and is open to the general public - with one blogger saying "it's the neighborhood YMCA with that weird contemporary church plant meeting in the yoga room on Saturday nights. But it’s Muslim and therefore has drawn out the haters." Local rabbis have spoken out in favor of the center.
The center itself - if it lives up to its billing - seems like a great idea. One of its stated goals is to advocate for human rights, including higher standards for the treatment of women - and it also wants to raise the bar is Islamic government in Muslim-majority countries (according to its web site). That to me looks like a place that knows Islam isn't perfect, but wants to take steps to address that.
It's a shame that in the nine years since 9/11 people still haven't figured out the difference between Muslims and Muslim extremists.
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
If I had a family member who died on 9/11, I'd probably be much more offended by the last few photos in that essay than someone building a community center that included a mosque two blocks away.
What's more insulting? A community center trying to promote racial and religious tolerance, or people trying to make money off the tragedy? It seems to me the bigger insult is the people selling "FDNY" tshirts and WTC paperweights...
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
Sarah Palin wrote that, “it would be an intolerable and tragic mistake to allow such a project sponsored by such an individual to go forward on such hallowed ground.”
Look at the photos. This neighborhood is not hallowed. The people who live and work here are not obsessed with 9/11. The blocks around Ground Zero are like every other hard-working neighborhood in New York, where Muslims are just another thread of the city fabric.
At this point the only argument against this project is fear, specifically fear of Muslims, and that’s a bigoted, cowardly and completely indefensible position.
bigoted indeed. and disgusting to use that as an excuse to pretend to be offended for the famililes of the victims of 9/11.
the implication is that there is something wrong with being an Arab-American or a Muslim. the ignorance that is displayed is just sad and ridiculous.
If I had a family member who died on 9/11, I'd probably be much more offended by the last few photos in that essay than someone building a community center that included a mosque two blocks away.
What's more insulting? A community center trying to promote racial and religious tolerance, or people trying to make money off the tragedy? It seems to me the bigger insult is the people selling "FDNY" tshirts and WTC paperweights...
A New Yorker born and raised, and a NYC firefighter for 7 years, I support the building of the Mosque. Although I feel that those who are building this Mosque, in an effort to avoid controversy, should move up town a bit, NO ONE has the right to force them to do so. I read a lot of comments about how it is 2 blocks from ground zero, or it is no where near ground zero, believe me, it is close to it. That doesn't matter to me much, but thought I would mention it.
Muslim extremists carried out the attacks of 9/11/2001, not the true Muslim faithful. Why after so many years so many cannot understand that is sad to me. The problem?? The majority of Americans DO NOT know their history. The history of their religion and their country, and the ugly side of both. Either they don't know, don't read, or choose to ignore FACTS. I admit, if I had a loved one murdered on 9/11, maybe I would feel differently about this. People need to read, need to accept that their religion is not perfect, that the USA is not perfect, and the sad founding of this country. Instead,I feel, many are too ignorant in their false sense of patriotism. Instead of reading a book, they want to see the world burn. Instead of accepting the UGLY history of their country and their faith, they choose to hate. We,as a majority, are fucking IGNORANT!!! My feelings anyway.
Who the f*ck goes around skinning cats~~Ed
It all comes down to changing your head~~John Lennon
MSG 6-24-08/MSG 5-21-10/Philly MIA 9-2-12/Chicago Wrigley Field 7-19-13/Brooklyn NY 1&2 10-2013/Philly 1&2 10-2013
who has the best health care system in the world in your eyes????
actually it is 47 million uninsured....more people die everyday due to lack of insurance coverage than died on 9/11...why are the 9/11 victims so much more precious in your eyes?
so do you have the wealth that obama is trying to re-distribute?
why is it not a good idea? why? you have not explained it other than saying you think it is disrespectful to the families of the victims. i get that. but you have no right to tell them what to do with the land they are leasing and the building they are building. so rather than acknowledge that and move on with your life you are clinging to some bullshit excuse that it offends the families. based on those i know that lost loved ones that day that i have spoken to, myself included, i find your intolerance and your reasoning, or lack of reasoning, and emotional response very offensive. we have moved on, why can't you? stopping this mosque will not bring the dead back and building it will not tarnish their memory.
as many many posters have asked you, what in your eyes is an acceptable distance?
also, i believe you never clarified your post that triumphantangel asked you about. i and others are waiting for that as well...
I believe we have the best Health care system in the world . I said healthcare not Health INS..And just why is it that these 47 million( which IMO is a bull shit number) don't have ins ? Could it be that they lost their job or is that they choose not to have health INS or just how many of those people are illegal aliens ? Im still waiting for you to give some names of people that have died bcos the had no health INS. No one is denied medical care in our country even illegal aliens get treated..
and no Im not wealthy actually I make about 13.00 an hr.. In other words I live paycheck to paycheck,but that doesn't mean I think the Gov should take from the upper class and redistribute money as they see fit. That's not the way I was raised and it's certainly not what this country should be doing. Americans by far are the most generous when it comes to giving help to the less fortunate and like I said there are dozens of programs designed to help the less fortunate with out the gov being involved. There are also millions of people mostly young adults who don't want Health Ins for whatever reason and No ONE should be forced by the gov to have to buy it either.
If you hate the Ins companies so much then why don't you drop your health ins and just pay for it out of pocket ?
and whatever gave you the Idea that I think ones person life is greater than another. You lumping the people that were murdered on 911 with out warning and people who died bcause they were terminally ill is really odd and quit strange IMO, but I guess that's the thinking of a progressive or whatever it is you call your self
Also it's not a bullshit excuse. The facts are that people are offended by the building of the cordoba project and tha't s their right. Or is it people only have rights when you agree with them ? So For the last time, Yes they have a right to build it there if they want (and just so you know it's like a 2 min walk from ground zero) but I just don't think it's a good idea. That DOESN'T mean [ PAY ATTENTION] THAT I DON'T LIKE MUSLIMS nor does it mean that im intolerant and I have given pleanty of examples of just who the intolerant ones are,but you ignore those.. Also I think as another poster put it you need to get off your high horse.. On the pm bored you act alot different than you do on this one..
and to answer your ? about to how far awa y they should build it, I think 1 mile would be far enough..
This seems like a good time to bring up that there's an organized group of 9/11 families who support the Cordoba Initiative...
"September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows strongly supports efforts to bring an Islamic Cultural Center to lower Manhattan, near the Ground Zero site. We believe that welcoming the Center, which is intended to promote interfaith tolerance and respect, is consistent with fundamental American values of freedom and justice for all.
We believe, too, that this building will serve as an emblem for the rest of the world that Americans stand against violence, intolerance and overt acts of racism and that we recognize that the evil acts of a few must never damn the innocent."
So how much weight do you give their personal feelings vs those of the family members who don't want it there?
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
This seems like a good time to bring up that there's an organized group of 9/11 families who support the Cordoba Initiative...
"September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows strongly supports efforts to bring an Islamic Cultural Center to lower Manhattan, near the Ground Zero site. We believe that welcoming the Center, which is intended to promote interfaith tolerance and respect, is consistent with fundamental American values of freedom and justice for all.
We believe, too, that this building will serve as an emblem for the rest of the world that Americans stand against violence, intolerance and overt acts of racism and that we recognize that the evil acts of a few must never damn the innocent."
So how much weight do you give their personal feelings vs those of the family members who don't want it there?
i would like to hear this one myself...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"There is a difference between what you can do and what you should do. For instance, you can build a Catholic church next to a playground. Should you?" - John Oliver on the "Ground Zero Mosque" controversy
"There is a difference between what you can do and what you should do. For instance, you can build a Catholic church next to a playground. Should you?" - John Oliver on the "Ground Zero Mosque" controversy
I like this point. I am in favor of allowing a Mosque being built near Ground Zero, because those who want to are free to do so. In an attempt to avoid yet another controversy, should you?
Who the f*ck goes around skinning cats~~Ed
It all comes down to changing your head~~John Lennon
MSG 6-24-08/MSG 5-21-10/Philly MIA 9-2-12/Chicago Wrigley Field 7-19-13/Brooklyn NY 1&2 10-2013/Philly 1&2 10-2013
"There is a difference between what you can do and what you should do. For instance, you can build a Catholic church next to a playground. Should you?" - John Oliver on the "Ground Zero Mosque" controversy
I like this point. I am in favor of allowing a Mosque being built near Ground Zero, because those who want to are free to do so. In an attempt to avoid yet another controversy, should you?
ugh. its not a mosque.
to take jon olivers point further....you can blame an entire religion for the actions of a few radical individuals.....should you?
"There is a difference between what you can do and what you should do. For instance, you can build a Catholic church next to a playground. Should you?" - John Oliver on the "Ground Zero Mosque" controversy
I like this point. I am in favor of allowing a Mosque being built near Ground Zero, because those who want to are free to do so. In an attempt to avoid yet another controversy, should you?
ugh. its not a mosque.
to take jon olivers point further....you can blame an entire religion for the actions of a few radical individuals.....should you?
I feel you are distorting his point. Of course you should not condemn an entire religion for the actions of a minority. If we did that, where would Christianity be today? I feel that many conservatives conveniently forget about the Crusades, or they are too unread to even know what they were. Anyway, like I said, a Mosque (or whatever you think it is) should be built there. My point was that in an attempt to avoid the shit storm that has already come with it, should you? Sometimes it's better not to do things even if you are free to do so. I could slap a woman, but should I? These questions are endless.
Who the f*ck goes around skinning cats~~Ed
It all comes down to changing your head~~John Lennon
MSG 6-24-08/MSG 5-21-10/Philly MIA 9-2-12/Chicago Wrigley Field 7-19-13/Brooklyn NY 1&2 10-2013/Philly 1&2 10-2013
Comments
Yes.. I don't like Obama care. Maybe if you read the bill you might actually see where Im coming from. When it kicks in 5 10 years from now then you will see just how big of a disater it really is. and I don't like the other systems wheather it be single payer system or a national healthcare system.. But that doesn't mean Im a big fan of Ins companies either.. Are they flawed ? Yeah Sure they have problems.. But that doesn't mean we should destroy the best healthcare system in the world IMO.. and replace it with a gov run program. For gods sake man everything the gov touches practically they fuck up.. We could have adressed the people that need it.. This number 30 million or whatever figure it is that you guys on the left love to use,just how many of those people choose not to have INS ? There were some on the right that had some good ideas but Obama wanted nothing to do with it. Because it's not about helping people that need it for him it's about redistibuting wealth from others. Maybe one day you will finally realize that. But my guess is that you already do bcos you agree with his ideology..
As far as this whole thing with this Mosque goes.. Ill say it again Yes they have a right to build it thier. Our constituion Protects those rights.. I just don't think the location is a good Idea. Why not build it a mile away. Why there ? Shouldn't they honor the request of the famalies that don't want it their.. Don't thier voices matter ??
whatever man...like I said there are other links that say the guy is dead.. So just who are the intolerant ones. I think we have been more that tolerant when it comes to people of Islamic faith..
who has the best health care system in the world in your eyes????
actually it is 47 million uninsured....more people die everyday due to lack of insurance coverage than died on 9/11...why are the 9/11 victims so much more precious in your eyes?
so do you have the wealth that obama is trying to re-distribute? :roll:
why is it not a good idea? why? you have not explained it other than saying you think it is disrespectful to the families of the victims. i get that. but you have no right to tell them what to do with the land they are leasing and the building they are building. so rather than acknowledge that and move on with your life you are clinging to some bullshit excuse that it offends the families. based on those i know that lost loved ones that day that i have spoken to, myself included, i find your intolerance and your reasoning, or lack of reasoning, and emotional response very offensive. we have moved on, why can't you? stopping this mosque will not bring the dead back and building it will not tarnish their memory.
as many many posters have asked you, what in your eyes is an acceptable distance?
also, i believe you never clarified your post that triumphantangel asked you about. i and others are waiting for that as well...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Be careful with contentious, accusatory posts and personal comments. TONE is important when communicating through text. Reposting this here...
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http://www.zimbio.com/Kurt+Westergaard/ ... urns+death
There's the full copy of the article you linked to, with the totally-unbiased-in-any-way lines:
"It is worth recalling that the blasphemous cartoons first appeared in Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten."
"The Danish authorities have so far been unable to find any hint about the cause of fire, as they had started investigations while keeping in mind some external conspiracy to kill the blasphemer."
"all of them, except Kurt, had opted to go underground to escape the public wrath after the Muslims around the world had participated in protest rallies which were attended by millions of people."
"The Saudi newspaper says the death of Kurt shows how powerful Allah Almighty is, as despite the foolproof security arrangements, none was able to save him from his tragic end."
Interestingly enough, this one article (not dozens of articles, just the same one being cut and pasted by a few blogs) does not link to the mysterious article published in "...an Arabic newspaper, published from Saudi Arabia..." - in fact it doesn't even name the newspaper in question. Shouldn't that set your bullshit detectors off? The international media isn't picking up on the story because it's not a story. Or, maybe the story is that he's now undead, because he has given interviews since his "death" where he has announced he will be publishing his memoirs later this year.
Then please answer my question. Exactly how far from Ground Zero should the mosque be? Because it seems to me that people living quite some distance from Ground Zero think mosques are being built too close to them, too:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html
My apologies - I didn't see that you had answered the question I asked you here.
The problem here is that nobody can agree on how far away from Ground Zero is far enough away. You said a mile away, while other people have said 10 miles away (not on this message board - that was in an interview on TV). There seems to be no consensus among the people who don't want it built there regarding the appropriate distance.
The supporters of the mosque, like myself, don't see the location as an issue. If they want it built there, I believe they should be able to build it there. What happened on 9/11 was a tragedy that was perpetrated by a fringe group of lunatic Muslims, all blindly following a colossal raving lunatic. I don't think the entire religion should be persecuted against as a result. Certainly the voices of the 9/11 victims' families matter - they're protected by the same First Amendment that protects Muslims in America, and they have a clear and obvious emotional attachment to the site.
But at the end of the day if you force the Cordoba Initiative to build elsewhere, what message are you sending? The center bills itself as "Improving Muslim-West Relations" - it's an olive branch. Beside the fact that you'd be trampling on the First Amendment, if you force the center to be built elsewhere, you're slapping away the olive branch and lowering yourself to the level of the extremists. Christians have come out in support of the center - which includes a fitness center and meeting rooms and is open to the general public - with one blogger saying "it's the neighborhood YMCA with that weird contemporary church plant meeting in the yoga room on Saturday nights. But it’s Muslim and therefore has drawn out the haters." Local rabbis have spoken out in favor of the center.
The center itself - if it lives up to its billing - seems like a great idea. One of its stated goals is to advocate for human rights, including higher standards for the treatment of women - and it also wants to raise the bar is Islamic government in Muslim-majority countries (according to its web site). That to me looks like a place that knows Islam isn't perfect, but wants to take steps to address that.
It's a shame that in the nine years since 9/11 people still haven't figured out the difference between Muslims and Muslim extremists.
If I had a family member who died on 9/11, I'd probably be much more offended by the last few photos in that essay than someone building a community center that included a mosque two blocks away.
What's more insulting? A community center trying to promote racial and religious tolerance, or people trying to make money off the tragedy? It seems to me the bigger insult is the people selling "FDNY" tshirts and WTC paperweights...
i assume you do realize that there are Millions of American Muslims. Do you not consider them to be equal to you?
“Hallowed Ground”
A few photos of stuff the same distance from the World Trade Center as the “Ground Zero Cultural Centre”:
http://daryllang.com/blog/4421
Sarah Palin wrote that, “it would be an intolerable and tragic mistake to allow such a project sponsored by such an individual to go forward on such hallowed ground.”
Look at the photos. This neighborhood is not hallowed. The people who live and work here are not obsessed with 9/11. The blocks around Ground Zero are like every other hard-working neighborhood in New York, where Muslims are just another thread of the city fabric.
At this point the only argument against this project is fear, specifically fear of Muslims, and that’s a bigoted, cowardly and completely indefensible position.
bigoted indeed. and disgusting to use that as an excuse to pretend to be offended for the famililes of the victims of 9/11.
the implication is that there is something wrong with being an Arab-American or a Muslim. the ignorance that is displayed is just sad and ridiculous.
the bigots, they're all standing in line...
A New Yorker born and raised, and a NYC firefighter for 7 years, I support the building of the Mosque. Although I feel that those who are building this Mosque, in an effort to avoid controversy, should move up town a bit, NO ONE has the right to force them to do so. I read a lot of comments about how it is 2 blocks from ground zero, or it is no where near ground zero, believe me, it is close to it. That doesn't matter to me much, but thought I would mention it.
Muslim extremists carried out the attacks of 9/11/2001, not the true Muslim faithful. Why after so many years so many cannot understand that is sad to me. The problem?? The majority of Americans DO NOT know their history. The history of their religion and their country, and the ugly side of both. Either they don't know, don't read, or choose to ignore FACTS. I admit, if I had a loved one murdered on 9/11, maybe I would feel differently about this. People need to read, need to accept that their religion is not perfect, that the USA is not perfect, and the sad founding of this country. Instead,I feel, many are too ignorant in their false sense of patriotism. Instead of reading a book, they want to see the world burn. Instead of accepting the UGLY history of their country and their faith, they choose to hate. We,as a majority, are fucking IGNORANT!!! My feelings anyway.
It all comes down to changing your head~~John Lennon
MSG 6-24-08/MSG 5-21-10/Philly MIA 9-2-12/Chicago Wrigley Field 7-19-13/Brooklyn NY 1&2 10-2013/Philly 1&2 10-2013
I believe we have the best Health care system in the world . I said healthcare not Health INS..And just why is it that these 47 million( which IMO is a bull shit number) don't have ins ? Could it be that they lost their job or is that they choose not to have health INS or just how many of those people are illegal aliens ? Im still waiting for you to give some names of people that have died bcos the had no health INS. No one is denied medical care in our country even illegal aliens get treated..
and no Im not wealthy actually I make about 13.00 an hr.. In other words I live paycheck to paycheck,but that doesn't mean I think the Gov should take from the upper class and redistribute money as they see fit. That's not the way I was raised and it's certainly not what this country should be doing. Americans by far are the most generous when it comes to giving help to the less fortunate and like I said there are dozens of programs designed to help the less fortunate with out the gov being involved. There are also millions of people mostly young adults who don't want Health Ins for whatever reason and No ONE should be forced by the gov to have to buy it either.
If you hate the Ins companies so much then why don't you drop your health ins and just pay for it out of pocket ?
and whatever gave you the Idea that I think ones person life is greater than another. You lumping the people that were murdered on 911 with out warning and people who died bcause they were terminally ill is really odd and quit strange IMO, but I guess that's the thinking of a progressive or whatever it is you call your self
Also it's not a bullshit excuse. The facts are that people are offended by the building of the cordoba project and tha't s their right. Or is it people only have rights when you agree with them ? So For the last time, Yes they have a right to build it there if they want (and just so you know it's like a 2 min walk from ground zero) but I just don't think it's a good idea. That DOESN'T mean [ PAY ATTENTION] THAT I DON'T LIKE MUSLIMS nor does it mean that im intolerant and I have given pleanty of examples of just who the intolerant ones are,but you ignore those.. Also I think as another poster put it you need to get off your high horse.. On the pm bored you act alot different than you do on this one..
and to answer your ? about to how far awa y they should build it, I think 1 mile would be far enough..
This seems like a good time to bring up that there's an organized group of 9/11 families who support the Cordoba Initiative...
"September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows strongly supports efforts to bring an Islamic Cultural Center to lower Manhattan, near the Ground Zero site. We believe that welcoming the Center, which is intended to promote interfaith tolerance and respect, is consistent with fundamental American values of freedom and justice for all.
We believe, too, that this building will serve as an emblem for the rest of the world that Americans stand against violence, intolerance and overt acts of racism and that we recognize that the evil acts of a few must never damn the innocent."
So how much weight do you give their personal feelings vs those of the family members who don't want it there?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-a ... sque-erade
I like this point. I am in favor of allowing a Mosque being built near Ground Zero, because those who want to are free to do so. In an attempt to avoid yet another controversy, should you?
It all comes down to changing your head~~John Lennon
MSG 6-24-08/MSG 5-21-10/Philly MIA 9-2-12/Chicago Wrigley Field 7-19-13/Brooklyn NY 1&2 10-2013/Philly 1&2 10-2013
to take jon olivers point further....you can blame an entire religion for the actions of a few radical individuals.....should you?
I feel you are distorting his point. Of course you should not condemn an entire religion for the actions of a minority. If we did that, where would Christianity be today? I feel that many conservatives conveniently forget about the Crusades, or they are too unread to even know what they were. Anyway, like I said, a Mosque (or whatever you think it is) should be built there. My point was that in an attempt to avoid the shit storm that has already come with it, should you? Sometimes it's better not to do things even if you are free to do so. I could slap a woman, but should I? These questions are endless.
It all comes down to changing your head~~John Lennon
MSG 6-24-08/MSG 5-21-10/Philly MIA 9-2-12/Chicago Wrigley Field 7-19-13/Brooklyn NY 1&2 10-2013/Philly 1&2 10-2013