obama and rev. wright......

_

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

scb wrote:

Okay, well if it's an opportunity for them, it's an opportunity for you too. And it is a poverty draft. People join the military - as you just said you did, as my dad did, as many of my friends have, etc. - because they otherwise can't afford to get ahead. It's one of the few options for good employment for poor people.

When it comes out that way it sounds negative and disrespectful to me, your dad, your friends and the many men and women who have joined the military. Like I said it was not given but earned you do not "get" anything in the military you earn it.

I know how the military works, having grown up on military bases. I know people work hard. All I'm saying is that if you're going to say it's an opportunity for one group you have to admit it's an opportunity for everyone else too. But you can't say people of color were given an opportunity and you weren't (when it comes to the military). I'm just looking for a little consistency here.

I don't understand how "poverty draft" sounds disrespectful, if that's what you were referring to. My parents found themselves with two kids when they were 21 years old and in college. They couldn't afford to feed us, so my dad joined the military so he could provide for his family. And he worked his ass off and he did provide for us. But it doesn't change the fact that he essentially had to take a job that could have gotten him killed, that my mom never wanted him to take, and that he didn't necessarily like, simply because he was poor.

Blockhead

scb wrote:

Well maybe we just have different opinions of what it means to speak poorly of someone. Adjectives like "disgusting" and "sickening" fall into the disrespectful category to me, as does saying "they" are "far more racist than white people" and "use [racism] as an excuse for failure" and are "GIVEN" so much, as if they didn't earn it. Plus, you've spoken all kinds of poorly about "them" in plenty of other threads before.

I also don't think working with a lot of black people gives you some great understanding of the plight of the entire population of African Americans or gives you license to speak for them, nor do I agree with your inflated opinion of yourself as having "alot more first hand experience than most".

Yes, there are reasons for the stats on education, welfare, and prison populations, but I've never known you to have any interest in understanding them. (There's a difference between understanding and making excuses, by the way.) I've only known you to sit up on your high horse and point your finger at "them". I don't blame you; I know it makes you feel better about yourself to think that if you have more than someone else it must be because you're such a better, hard-working person.

I am not pointing my finger at anyone, I am simply telling you that I work with sucessfull black people and have for a good ammount of time, I have built friendships and have been a best man in one my friends from the compnay wedding and I would think that they have a great idea of what living in the ghetto and inner city is like. And I form my opinion from personal experiences and influenced from alot of what they say. They tell me about the inner city lifestyle and welfare and trading food stamps for drugs. Its very refreshing hearing it from black people. I am sorry but you have no clue.

There is not much dept in looking at prision stats and welfare growth stats. Education there is more depth and there is no clear cut answer. But my wife being a teacher at a 90 black school in KY i think i have a pretty good idea of why that stat is poor as well.

Blockhead

scb wrote:

only known you to sit up on your high horse and point your finger at "them". I don't blame you; I know it makes you feel better about yourself to think that if you have more than someone else it must be because you're such a better, hard-working person.

So you genalize me from the 100 posts I have and base your conclusion on that. Yet I am the racists because I point out a huge pattern/trend within a race with stats.
lets discuss the topic, no need to take personal blow at me because you disagree. I don't claim to be better than anybody, but i do take pride in not relying on other people or programs for me or my family. I guess I see the racisim issue get alot better if we really make thing equal, quit with the handouts and giving people money to breed and become a leach to society.

Dirtie_Frank

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

scb wrote:

Okay, well if it's an opportunity for them, it's an opportunity for you too. And it is a poverty draft. People join the military - as you just said you did, as my dad did, as many of my friends have, etc. - because they otherwise can't afford to get ahead. It's one of the few options for good employment for poor people.

When it comes out that way it sounds negative and disrespectful to me, your dad, your friends and the many men and women who have joined the military. Like I said it was not given but earned you do not "get" anything in the military you earn it.

they let you join didn't they? that is receiving a job is it not?

Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.

gimmesometruth27

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.

i did not twist your words. i proved a point that you had said you have never been given anything by the government, yet serving said government implies that you accepted the job given to you by the government, and you blamed others that accepted from the government in prior posts. so in essence you did the same thing that the poor people who have welfare did, you just worked harder after you were given the opportunity.

_

HeidiJam wrote:

scb wrote:

only known you to sit up on your high horse and point your finger at "them". I don't blame you; I know it makes you feel better about yourself to think that if you have more than someone else it must be because you're such a better, hard-working person.

So you genalize me from the 100 posts I have and base your conclusion on that. Yet I am the racists because I point out a huge pattern/trend within a race with stats.
lets discuss the topic, no need to take personal blow at me because you disagree. I don't claim to be better than anybody, but i do take pride in not relying on other people or programs for me or my family. I guess I see the racisim issue get alot better if we really make thing equal, quit with the handouts and giving people money to breed and become a leach to society.

The only thing I know about your attitude about African Americans is what you have said here. Whether 100 posts or 10,000, 90% of what I have read you say about the subject leads me to believe that, generally speaking, you think black people are lazy freeloaders and you work harder than they do. Let's make your post above post # 101 that gives me that impression.

It's that attitude that I have a problem with and that I think perpetuates so many of the problems we have in this society today, which is why I am discussing it - not because I'm trying to take personal blows at you. I'm sorry if it came across like I am.

I'm wondering, though, is it really so much more acceptable when the personal blows are aimed at groups of people or people who aren't participating in the conversation? Because if I didn't feel like you were taking person blows at black people, I wouldn't even be arguing with you in the first place. So am a little confused about where the line is drawn.

Thanks for sharing what you think would make the racism issue better. Personally, I see the racism issue getting a lot better when people stop judging and stereotyping others. (In fact, I see a LOT of issues getting a lot better when people stop doing those things.)

_

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.

i did not twist your words. i proved a point that you had said you have never been given anything by the government, yet serving said government implies that you accepted the job given to you by the government, and you blamed others that accepted from the government in prior posts. so in essence you did the same thing that the poor people who have welfare did, you just worked harder after you were given the opportunity.

I think you make a good point about opportunity. Opportunity is what you are given so you have a chance to work hard. Some people have more opportunity than others, which doesn't mean they aren't hard workers - just that they weren't given the opportunity to demonstrate that they are.

gimmesometruth27

scb wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.

i did not twist your words. i proved a point that you had said you have never been given anything by the government, yet serving said government implies that you accepted the job given to you by the government, and you blamed others that accepted from the government in prior posts. so in essence you did the same thing that the poor people who have welfare did, you just worked harder after you were given the opportunity.

I think you make a good point about opportunity. Opportunity is what you are given so you have a chance to work hard. Some people have more opportunity than others, which doesn't mean they aren't hard workers - just that they weren't given the opportunity to demonstrate that they are.

i think in a roundabout way that is what i have been trying to say in all of my posts on the race issue. opportunity is the key to everything. unfortunately it takes things like affirmative action to give people opportunities that if the playing field was level would be extended to everyone regardless of race or gender. it took title IX for women to have the opportunity to have equal funding and OPPORTUNITY at high schools and colleges for atheltics and scholadships, just like it took the civil rights movement and civil rights legislation to try to level the playing field and give opportunites to african americans...and i think sharpton, jackson, and rev wright are dead on when they speak of lack of opportunities.

Blockhead

scb wrote:

The only thing I know about your attitude about African Americans is what you have said here. Whether 100 posts or 10,000, 90% of what I have read you say about the subject leads me to believe that, generally speaking, you think black people are lazy freeloaders and you work harder than they do. Let's make your post above post # 101 that gives me that impression.

It's that attitude that I have a problem with and that I think perpetuates so many of the problems we have in this society today, which is why I am discussing it - not because I'm trying to take personal blows at you. I'm sorry if it came across like I am.

I'm wondering, though, is it really so much more acceptable when the personal blows are aimed at groups of people or people who aren't participating in the conversation? Because if I didn't feel like you were taking person blows at black people, I wouldn't even be arguing with you in the first place. So am a little confused about where the line is drawn.

Thanks for sharing what you think would make the racism issue better. Personally, I see the racism issue getting a lot better when people stop judging and stereotyping others. (In fact, I see a LOT of issues getting a lot better when people stop doing those things.)

I will tell you what gives me that impression Blacks make up 12% of the population and 40% of that population is on welfare, and looking at the stats teens make up a very small portion of that. So what that tells me is that there are people that could/should be working that are not. Food staps have also increased. This info plus my experience of where I live and some people I work with, I think I have a pretty well found opinion on why I think the way I do. Do you have any stats that back up your position.

Blockhead

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i think in a roundabout way that is what i have been trying to say in all of my posts on the race issue. opportunity is the key to everything. unfortunately it takes things like affirmative action to give people opportunities that if the playing field was level would be extended to everyone regardless of race or gender. it took title IX for women to have the opportunity to have equal funding and OPPORTUNITY at high schools and colleges for atheltics and scholadships, just like it took the civil rights movement and civil rights legislation to try to level the playing field and give opportunites to african americans...and i think sharpton, jackson, and rev wright are dead on when they speak of lack of opportunities.

Opportunity??? Like lower admission standards for colleges for a certin race? Like affirmitve action? Like requiring contractors to meet minority buisness goals in order to get a job? THey are given opportunities, maybe they should take advantage of those opportunities. With the HS graduation rate, it shows they are not taking advantage of their opportunity of education and with the increase of welfare it show they are taking advantage of GOV. handouts.

gimmesometruth27

HeidiJam wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i think in a roundabout way that is what i have been trying to say in all of my posts on the race issue. opportunity is the key to everything. unfortunately it takes things like affirmative action to give people opportunities that if the playing field was level would be extended to everyone regardless of race or gender. it took title IX for women to have the opportunity to have equal funding and OPPORTUNITY at high schools and colleges for atheltics and scholadships, just like it took the civil rights movement and civil rights legislation to try to level the playing field and give opportunites to african americans...and i think sharpton, jackson, and rev wright are dead on when they speak of lack of opportunities.

Opportunity??? Like lower admission standards for colleges for a certin race? Like affirmitve action? Like requiring contractors to meet minority buisness goals in order to get a job? THey are given opportunities, maybe they should take advantage of those opportunities. With the HS graduation rate, it shows they are not taking advantage of their opportunity of education and with the increase of welfare it show they are taking advantage of GOV. handouts.

you have not been reading my prior posts or you are ignoring them. as i stated before i am finished talking about this with you because i have nothing futher to add. i have spelled out my position in plain type and you are not getting it. those are opportuities given because it is a law. and how great of an opportunity is it if generation after generations stays in the same low income neighborhood? i am trying to state the root causes of these problems and you refuse to see it instead you point fingers and call them lazy. in a perfect world everyone would have the same chance at success. i view those programs as righteous and necessary. you view them as unfair to you. quit being so selfish.

Blockhead

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

you have not been reading my prior posts or you are ignoring them. as i stated before i am finished talking about this with you because i have nothing futher to add. i have spelled out my position in plain type and you are not getting it. those are opportuities given because it is a law. and how great of an opportunity is it if generation after generations stays in the same low income neighborhood? i am trying to state the root causes of these problems and you refuse to see it instead you point fingers and call them lazy. in a perfect world everyone would have the same chance at success. i view those programs as righteous and necessary. you view them as unfair to you. quit being so selfish.

You view AA as righteious and necessary... So you are for giving someone a job because of skin color and not because of who is better for the job???
Again I am not pointing fingers, I am just wondering why the drop out rates and welfare continues to increase.

Dirtie_Frank

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.

i did not twist your words. i proved a point that you had said you have never been given anything by the government, yet serving said government implies that you accepted the job given to you by the government, and you blamed others that accepted from the government in prior posts. so in essence you did the same thing that the poor people who have welfare did, you just worked harder after you were given the opportunity.

That is a stretch saying I was given a job. I volunteered to serve just as everyone else can too. So to say I was given a job is really stretching it. I also ask you were did I blame anyone for accepting something from the government? I said in my original post that there are many programs and opportunities.

Dirtie_Frank

Like I said it wan't like there was a line of guys enlisting in the Army and they chose me since I was white and not the other since they are black, hispanic, asian, etc...

gimmesometruth27

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.

i did not twist your words. i proved a point that you had said you have never been given anything by the government, yet serving said government implies that you accepted the job given to you by the government, and you blamed others that accepted from the government in prior posts. so in essence you did the same thing that the poor people who have welfare did, you just worked harder after you were given the opportunity.

That is a stretch saying I was given a job. I volunteered to serve just as everyone else can too. So to say I was given a job is really stretching it. I also ask you were did I blame anyone for accepting something from the government? I said in my original post that there are many programs and opportunities.

i volunteered and applied for my job, and when it was offered i accepted my job, so i say i was given my job. can't you say the same thing? maybe i confused you with someone else who was blaming people. at any rate i am not going to go back and search posts right now, so if i confused you with someone else i apologize.

Dirtie_Frank

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i volunteered and applied for my job, and when it was offered i accepted my job, so i say i was given my job. can't you say the same thing? maybe i confused you with someone else who was blaming people. at any rate i am not going to go back and search posts right now, so if i confused you with someone else i apologize.

Hey man no worries, we might not agree but I try to read what everyone says. Sometimes my comments, when I actually write them might be incendiary but I never mean them to be personal unless someone else goes that way first.

I read a lot what you write and it seems smart, I just do not agree 100% all the time.

gimmesometruth27

HeidiJam wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

you have not been reading my prior posts or you are ignoring them. as i stated before i am finished talking about this with you because i have nothing futher to add. i have spelled out my position in plain type and you are not getting it. those are opportuities given because it is a law. and how great of an opportunity is it if generation after generations stays in the same low income neighborhood? i am trying to state the root causes of these problems and you refuse to see it instead you point fingers and call them lazy. in a perfect world everyone would have the same chance at success. i view those programs as righteous and necessary. you view them as unfair to you. quit being so selfish.

You view AA as righteious and necessary... So you are for giving someone a job because of skin color and not because of who is better for the job???
Again I am not pointing fingers, I am just wondering why the drop out rates and welfare continues to increase.

aa is righteous and necessary. do you think there would be any african american coaches in football if there was no AA? no, it is mandated by the league that there have to be a certain number of minorites interviewed for each coaching position. they did that because nfl owners were an old boys club that looked after their own. that is just one example. i am talking about jobs in general. everyone deserves the same opportunity.

how about dropout rates are increasing because no child left behind was not just underfunded, but in many cases unfunded. kids are taught to excel on the standardized tests so that if they do well the school will get funding. if they do poorly they lose funding. as a result teachers have to teach for that test as opposed to a well rounded curriculum. around here, the city schools with the high african american and latino populations have high dropout rates for several reasons.. 1. lack of teachers. 2. large numbers of kids in each class, and with less teachers the student to teacher ratio makes it impossible to give quality education to every individual. 3. in many cases these kids have multiple siblings and are in a single parent household, so they drop out to get a job to help support their family. i could go on but i dont feel like sitting here all noght researching this stuff. it is all out there on the internet, how about you look it up and report back to us...

gimmesometruth27

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

[quote="gimmesometruth27"
i volunteered and applied for my job, and when it was offered i accepted my job, so i say i was given my job. can't you say the same thing? maybe i confused you with someone else who was blaming people. at any rate i am not going to go back and search posts right now, so if i confused you with someone else i apologize.

Hey man no worries, we might not agree but I try to read what everyone says. Sometimes my comments, when I actually write them might be incendiary but I never mean them to be personal unless someone else goes that way first.

I read a lot what you write and it seems smart, I just do not agree 100% all the time. [/quote]



no worries Dirtie. i know i say a lot of incendiary stuff as well, and i apioligize for that. it is not to be a prick it is that i am pretty passionate about debating and i am passionate about having people at least try to see where i am coming from. the written/typed word is not my greatest form of communication, and since i hate typing i come off as short sometimes. i try really hard to not get personal as well, and i think sometimes it is hard to remember that this is here for everyone to read, not just the person i am talking to.

_

HeidiJam wrote:

scb wrote:

The only thing I know about your attitude about African Americans is what you have said here. Whether 100 posts or 10,000, 90% of what I have read you say about the subject leads me to believe that, generally speaking, you think black people are lazy freeloaders and you work harder than they do. Let's make your post above post # 101 that gives me that impression.

It's that attitude that I have a problem with and that I think perpetuates so many of the problems we have in this society today, which is why I am discussing it - not because I'm trying to take personal blows at you. I'm sorry if it came across like I am.

I'm wondering, though, is it really so much more acceptable when the personal blows are aimed at groups of people or people who aren't participating in the conversation? Because if I didn't feel like you were taking person blows at black people, I wouldn't even be arguing with you in the first place. So am a little confused about where the line is drawn.

Thanks for sharing what you think would make the racism issue better. Personally, I see the racism issue getting a lot better when people stop judging and stereotyping others. (In fact, I see a LOT of issues getting a lot better when people stop doing those things.)

I will tell you what gives me that impression

Just to be clear, you're saying that my impression of your impression is accurate?

HeidiJam wrote:

Blacks make up 12% of the population and 40% of that population is on welfare, and looking at the stats teens make up a very small portion of that. So what that tells me is that there are people that could/should be working that are not. Food staps have also increased. This info plus my experience of where I live and some people I work with, I think I have a pretty well found opinion on why I think the way I do. Do you have any stats that back up your position.

Someone's actually ASKING me for stats!?!? :geek: I'll be sure and find some for you.

But in the meantime, I don't think your statistic backs up your position at all. You're saying that African American people are disproportionately poor. No shit. We all agree on that. It's your assessment of why they're poor that's being questioned. You think they're poor because they should be working but aren't (i.e. they're lazy, right?). I think they're poor because they don't have the same opportunities and, even when they do, they are starting way behind in the race. It takes more than a generation or two to break free of a history of oppression, and institutional racism still exists. Don't make me re-post my article about the invisible knapsack of white privilege.

_

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

Like I said it wan't like there was a line of guys enlisting in the Army and they chose me since I was white and not the other since they are black, hispanic, asian, etc...

I'm not sure I'm clear about what you're saying and don't want to assume. Are you suggesting that people of color were chosen because of their race?