3. in many cases these kids have multiple siblings and are in a single parent household, so they drop out to get a job to help support their family.
. #3 is not an excuse.
I'd like to see you tell that to Eddie Vedder, by the way. I guess you don't have any respect for his lazy ass either, huh? :roll:
he probably does not know anything about ed's history...
and by the way, #3 is a very legitimate excuse. it must be nice to be able to live in a world where you can easily dismiss situations like that heidijam.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
3. in many cases these kids have multiple siblings and are in a single parent household, so they drop out to get a job to help support their family.
. #3 is not an excuse.
I'd like to see you tell that to Eddie Vedder, by the way. I guess you don't have any respect for his lazy ass either, huh? :roll:
So when i bring up points from my experience - I am over-generalizing and judgemental (even though stats back my position up)
You bring up eddie vedder (1 person) - and your not generalizing and thinking that everbody that is poor has to help support their families.
Were both generalizing yet I am the one getting called judgemental and racisit. I am sure there is alot of both but you need to quit pretending like i some judgemental bad guy, I see what i write about everyday.
Most of the time there are reasons that people are poor especially in america, and alot of that has to do with making bad decisions in life, NOT ALL. But to come here and say they don't have the opportunity to get jobs is a straight up lie, We have AA which gives them jobs for being blacks. They are given college educations because they are black. Those are all opportunities that you choose to ignore. What other opportunities do they need??? In OHIO they are now trying to pass a law where they will sever dinner now after school as part of the school??? for free, they already give breakfast and lunch. Why is it our job to feed them on the gov dollar???
We bendover backwards to help these people get out of poverty, or to at least provide for them. You fail to see this as a positive and you think it is some sort of right for them, when it is a privlige for my family. Life isn't fair and you should not be given privliges as rights.
I'd like to see you tell that to Eddie Vedder, by the way. I guess you don't have any respect for his lazy ass either, huh? :roll:[/quote]
he probably does not know anything about ed's history...
and by the way, #3 is a very legitimate excuse. it must be nice to be able to live in a world where you can easily dismiss situations like that heidijam.[/quote]
Oh you know eddie vedder now because you read it in a book. Please, just because he said something in a book dosent mean hes telling the complete truth. Don't act like you know eddie Vedder.
#3 is as a lgeitimates excuse as them being lazy to, is it not???
I like how everything i say is judgemental and a generalization yet, what you and SCB say, its not a generalization.
I am easily dimissing your point because it has as much merit as them being lazy. Just because you saw it in a movie dosen't make it true.
one study in florida does not generalize to the states of missouri where i used to work, and the state of illinois where i work now that if broke as fuck.
Schools in China have double our class size and they are able to be extremely sucessful in china and the USA??? Do you knwo what the differences. They value education and most inner-city youth do not value education, hence the drop-out rate and attendance issues. STOP with the excuses.
one study in florida does not generalize to the states of missouri where i used to work, and the state of illinois where i work now that if broke as fuck.
Schools in China have double our class size and they are able to be extremely sucessful in china and the USA??? Do you knwo what the differences. They value education and most inner-city youth do not value education, hence the drop-out rate and attendance issues. STOP with the excuses.
You with the sad eyes
Don't be discouraged
Oh I realize
It's hard to take courage
In a world full of people
You can lose sight of it all
And the darkness inside you
Can make you feel so small
But I see your true colors
Shining through
I see your true colors
And that's why I love you
So don't be afraid to let them show
Your true colors
True colors are beautiful,
Like a rainbow
Show me a smile then,
Don't be unhappy, can't remember
When I last saw you laughing
If this world makes you crazy
And you've taken all you can bear
You call me up
Because you know I'll be there
And I'll see your true colors
Shining through
I see your true colors
And that's why I love you
So don't be afraid to let them show
Your true colors
True colors are beautiful,
Like a rainbow
So when i bring up points from my experience - I am over-generalizing and judgemental (even though stats back my position up)
You bring up eddie vedder (1 person) - and your not generalizing and thinking that everbody that is poor has to help support their families.
First of all, you'll have to remind me about these stats that supposedly back up your position, please. I recall some stats that didn't back up your position, but maybe I missed the ones that did.
Secondly, I am absolutely not generalizing because I have never claimed that everybody that is poor has to help support their families. I said this is ONE reason why people drop out of school. And I did not base this information on Eddie Vedder. I merely pointed out the irony of your suggestion that people who drop out of school to work are lazy considering that your (presumably) favorite musician falls into that category.
Were both generalizing yet I am the one getting called judgemental and racisit. I am sure there is alot of both but you need to quit pretending like i some judgemental bad guy, I see what i write about everyday.
But the things you say about black people are judgmental. You're saying they're lazy, are you not? If that's not judgmental, I don't know what is. Gimme and I, on the other hand, are not calling black people names. We have simply listed the myriad reasons people drop out of school. We are trying to understand, which is the opposite of being judgmental. You're the one saying negative things about entire groups of people; we are not.
Most of the time there are reasons that people are poor especially in america, and alot of that has to do with making bad decisions in life, NOT ALL. But to come here and say they don't have the opportunity to get jobs is a straight up lie, We have AA which gives them jobs for being blacks. They are given college educations because they are black. Those are all opportunities that you choose to ignore. What other opportunities do they need???
Your suggestion that all a black person has to do to get a job is to be black is absurd. So, if I'm black, I can just walk into McDonald's and demand a job? I can just walk into the construction company where you work and you have to hire me, just on the basis of my race? Hell, if that's the case, I'd skip McDonald's and construction work and walk my ass down to Wall Street and demand a CEO job down there - and then not do anything but collect millions of dollars, since I'm lazy and all. :roll: Black people have to work hard and have experience, training, and all other requisite qualifications to get a job, just like the rest of us do. And AA reinforces this.
If you're so against Affirmative Action, by the way, if you have such anger for an entire race of people based a this law (which you already admitted to benefiting from), you need to hate veterans, women, and people with disabilities too. They are all covered under Affirmative Action. So let's hear you say that veterans are lazy then. Go ahead. Let's hear it.
Basically, you're distorting this whole AA thing, blowing it out of proportion, and using it to justify your racism - as far as I can tell, anyway. The purpose of AA is not to give jobs to lazy, undeserving people just because they're black. The purpose is to keep employers from discriminating against people based on race, gender, etc. Do you think they should be allowed to discriminate based on these things?? AA applies to government contracts of over $50,000 with contractors with at least 50 employees. It does NOT apply to the entire workforce, as you seem to want people to believe. It says that if there are x% of minorities IN THE QUALIFIED WORK FORCE and a big company with a big government contract hires a DISPROPORTIONATELY LOW % of minorities, then that doesn't add up to equal opportunities. See, it's because there are NOT equal opportunities for all people that these laws have to exist, and a company that actually is providing equal opportunities shouldn't have anything to worry about. Do don't discriminate, and you shouldn't have a problem. And it's only the construction contracts for which the government determines what % of minorities should be hired to not be discriminatory. That accounts for 10% of the civilian work force. TEN percent. And you want to go around acting like ALL black people have jobs handed to them for no reason. Please. :roll:
In OHIO they are now trying to pass a law where they will sever dinner now after school as part of the school??? for free, they already give breakfast and lunch. Why is it our job to feed them on the gov dollar???
We bendover backwards to help these people get out of poverty, or to at least provide for them. You fail to see this as a positive and you think it is some sort of right for them, when it is a privlige for my family. Life isn't fair and you should not be given privliges as rights.
I cannot believe you are actually suggesting that we should have children go hungry. And you have even made this about you again. That's nice that your children aren't going hungry, but some children are. Grow a heart for God's sake!
The whole world will be different soon... - EV
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
Again - The Stats show a large percentage of of aferican americans in prision more % than any other race. People, especially drug trafficing/dealing do that as a job. So yes, they are lazy, instead of working hard they are looking to make a quick buck. More crime usually means there are more people not working. When people aren't working they turn to crime.
I never said people who drop out of school to work are lazy (please point out where i did) What i am saying is it is not as common as your are portraying it to be. I told you I do shopping in the ghetto area and there are hardely any teenagers working. So, please quit making it seem like a huge portion of the drop out stat is kids working to support their families because its not.
I am allowed to voice my opinion on this discussion and I think they are lazy. WHy??? bceause I see evidence of shitty parenting on a continious basis. Children on the streets late at night, no value or concern for education, continual support for their kids after multiple arrests, arguing with cops, Majority of blacks in the ghetto have no respect for the law. Have you ever been to the inner city. Based off your posts you have not.
You are looking for excuses for why the drop out rate is bad, and assuming its because the parents are working all night, or the kids are working. Well since the welfare rate is such a hight percent of them, I am going to assume that they are not working since there is a extremely low maximum for the ammount money you can make to continually be on welfare.
AA is a terrible thing - It is giving jobs to people who do not deserve them. We should provide equality and leave it at that. Life isn't fair, but we can't tilt the playing field to where privliges are now rights. Take a look at the average section 8 house (rent) cost.
If they are not lazy, please explain to me why the gettho looks like a bomb went off, they look like a war zone in cincinnati,... Please explain that one to me.
It is not the gov job to feed people, when they are already paying for their living and giving them food stamps.
Its the parents responsibility to take care of their child. Provide clothes, food, and shelter, the basics in life.
If people can not afford to have kids DONT HAV THEM. WHy is it so hard to under stand.
Again - The Stats show a large percentage of of aferican americans in prision more % than any other race. People, especially drug trafficing/dealing do that as a job. So yes, they are lazy, instead of working hard they are looking to make a quick buck. More crime usually means there are more people not working. When people aren't working they turn to crime.
I never said people who drop out of school to work are lazy (please point out where i did) What i am saying is it is not as common as your are portraying it to be. I told you I do shopping in the ghetto area and there are hardely any teenagers working. So, please quit making it seem like a huge portion of the drop out stat is kids working to support their families because its not.
I am allowed to voice my opinion on this discussion and I think they are lazy. WHy??? bceause I see evidence of shitty parenting on a continious basis. Children on the streets late at night, no value or concern for education, continual support for their kids after multiple arrests, arguing with cops, Majority of blacks in the ghetto have no respect for the law. Have you ever been to the inner city. Based off your posts you have not.
You are looking for excuses for why the drop out rate is bad, and assuming its because the parents are working all night, or the kids are working. Well since the welfare rate is such a hight percent of them, I am going to assume that they are not working since there is a extremely low maximum for the ammount money you can make to continually be on welfare. AA is a terrible thing - It is giving jobs to people who do not deserve them. We should provide equality and leave it at that. Life isn't fair, but we can't tilt the playing field to where privliges are now rights. Take a look at the average section 8 house (rent) cost.
If they are not lazy, please explain to me why the gettho looks like a bomb went off, they look like a war zone in cincinnati,... Please explain that one to me.
It is not the gov job to feed people, when they are already paying for their living and giving them food stamps.
Its the parents responsibility to take care of their child. Provide clothes, food, and shelter, the basics in life. If people can not afford to have kids DONT HAV THEM. WHy is it so hard to under stand.
what are your thoughts on NAACP? by reading this i would guess it would be slightly unfavorable?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
NAACP tries to find racisim, instead of solving the real issues of poverty...
I think if focused on the right causes, there could be some benefit. I don't hear much about the cincinnati chapter unless they are making issues out of nothing.
NAACP tries to find racisim, instead of solving the real issues of poverty...
I think if focused on the right causes, there could be some benefit. I don't hear much about the cincinnati chapter unless they are making issues out of nothing.
really? i stopped reading after your first sentence...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
please show me the lies here and
if there are none
why the media explosion
Wright spoke of the United States taking land from the Indian tribes by what he labeled as terror, bombing Grenada, Panama, Libya, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, and argued that the United States supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and South Africa. He said that his parishioners' response should be to examine their relationship with God, not go "from the hatred of armed enemies to the hatred of unarmed innocents." His comment (quoting Malcolm X) that "America's chickens are coming home to roost" was widely interpreted as meaning that America had brought the September 11, 2001 attacks upon itself.[16][17][18] ABC News broadcast clips[19] from the sermon[1][20] in which Wright said:
"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye... and now we are indignant, because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."
Later, Wright continued :
"Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism. A white ambassador said that y'all, not a black militant. Not a reverend who preaches about racism. An ambassador whose eyes are wide open and who is trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice upon which we are now poised. The ambassador said the people that we have wounded don't have the military capability we have. But they do have individuals who are willing to die and take thousands with them. And we need to come to grips with that."[19]
[edit] "Confusing God and Government"
Clips from a sermon that Wright gave, entitled "Confusing God and Government", were also shown on ABC's Good Morning America[1] and Fox News. In the sermon, Wright first makes the distinction between God and governments, and points out that many governments in the past have failed: "Where governments lie, God does not lie. Where governments change, God does not change."[21] Wright then states:
"[The United States] government lied about their belief that all men were created equal. The truth is they believed that all white men were created equal. The truth is they did not even believe that white women were created equal, in creation nor civilization. The government had to pass an amendment to the Constitution to get white women the vote. Then the government had to pass an equal rights amendment to get equal protection under the law for women. The government still thinks a woman has no rights over her own body, and between Uncle Clarence who sexually harassed Anita Hill, and a closeted Klan court, that is a throwback to the 19th century, handpicked by Daddy Bush, Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, between Clarence and that stacked court, they are about to undo Roe vs. Wade, just like they are about to un-do affirmative action. The government lied in its founding documents and the government is still lying today. Governments lie."
He continued:
"The government lied about Pearl Harbor too. They knew the Japanese were going to attack. Governments lie. The government lied about the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. They wanted that resolution to get us in the Vietnam War. Governments lie. The government lied about Nelson Mandela and our CIA helped put him in prison and keep him there for 27 years. The South African government lied on Nelson Mandela. Governments lie."
Wright then stated:
"The government lied about the Tuskegee experiment. They purposely infected African American men with syphilis. Governments lie. The government lied about bombing Cambodia and Richard Nixon stood in front of the camera, 'Let me make myself perfectly clear...' Governments lie. The government lied about the drugs for arms Contra scheme orchestrated by Oliver North, and then the government pardoned all the perpetrators so they could get better jobs in the government. Governments lie.... The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. Governments lie. The government lied about a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein and a connection between 9.11.01 and Operation Iraqi Freedom. Governments lie."
He spoke about the government's rationale for the Iraq War:
"The government lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq being a threat to the United States peace. And guess what else? If they don't find them some weapons of mass destruction, they gonna do just like the LAPD, and plant the some weapons of mass destruction. Governments lie."
Wright then commented on God and government:
"And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent fairly, she failed. She put them on reservations. When it came to treating her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in internment prison camps. When it came to treating her citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains, the government put them on slave quarters, put them on auction blocks, put them in cotton field, put them in inferior schools, put them in substandard housing, put them in scientific experiments, put them in the lowest paying jobs, put them outside the equal protection of the law, kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness. The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America — that's in the Bible — for killing innocent people. God damn America, for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America, as long as she tries to act like she is God, and she is supreme. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent.."[21][22][23][24]
you dont get to get off that easy, go back and answer my questions, why do you do that ed, try to corner someone into something and then are so surprised they do it you are rendered speechless and change the subject
m
i went back
can't find a question for me from you
please show me and i will answer
and then please answer my question from above
thanks
The whole world will be different soon... - EV
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
NAACP tries to find racisim, instead of solving the real issues of poverty...
I think if focused on the right causes, there could be some benefit. I don't hear much about the cincinnati chapter unless they are making issues out of nothing.
really? i stopped reading after your first sentence...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/11/na ... d-shelves/
You should start actually reading more of my posts. I am not blinded like many on here. This is just one example of the NAACP going after things that are so trival, it actually takes away from the serious problem of racism that still exists.
Ask your self, why does the NAACP never speak about the problem that is Black on Black crime, which today is way more prevelent than racisim.
NAACP tries to find racisim, instead of solving the real issues of poverty...
I think if focused on the right causes, there could be some benefit. I don't hear much about the cincinnati chapter unless they are making issues out of nothing.
really? i stopped reading after your first sentence...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/11/na ... d-shelves/
You should start actually reading more of my posts. I am not blinded like many on here. This is just one example of the NAACP going after things that are so trival, it actually takes away from the serious problem of racism that still exists.
Ask your self, why does the NAACP never speak about the problem that is Black on Black crime, which today is way more prevelent than racisim.
i am a supporter of the NAACP and you sir have no idea what you are talking about. you are blinded, and if your posts are a reflection of your true self then i would suggest that you refrain from replying to me. the NAACP goes after things that WHITE people find trivial. you are not an african american and from what you say on here you do not care about the plight of the cities nor that community at all. that song someone posted to you earlier is a good reflection of my opinion of your positions.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
i am a supporter of the NAACP and you sir have no idea what you are talking about. you are blinded, and if your posts are a reflection of your true self then i would suggest that you refrain from replying to me. the NAACP goes after things that WHITE people find trivial. you are not an african american and from what you say on here you do not care about the plight of the cities nor that community at all. that song someone posted to you earlier is a good reflection of my opinion of your positions.
Thanks for responding to my link, :roll: .
Isn't it ironic? The NAACP is a racist organization because they promote one race above all the others while lobbying for laws that specifically favor Blacks. That is racist. They have now turned racisim into a business. If you are such a supporter, can you tell me what efforts they put forth for inner-city areas, drop out rates, black on black crime? Because I have never heard them try to tackle any of those issues. Its always phantom issues like the link above. There was a time when the NAACP actually served a purpose. Now, they really have no reason to exist, and therefore are desperately reaching and exaggerating in order to hopefully fool people into thinking they're still relevant.
So regarding my link, which you ignored, do you think thats an important issue for the NAACP to go after???
Quit playing your race card because someone disagrees with you. If clean you don't want to talk to me because I am making you look like a fool.
By in large whites have been more than accomodating to the black community over the last 30-40 years and have sympathized with their plight. But there will always be some who insist on using race as a means to guilt people into submission. Like I have said already, this tactic is beginning to lose its effectiveness.
...around here, the city schools with the high african american and latino populations have high dropout rates for several reasons.. 2. large numbers of kids in each class, and with less teachers the student to teacher ratio makes it impossible to give quality education to every individual....
#2. I got a great quaility education at UK with 300 + students in several ofmy classes. I also had large classes in high school and i got a fine education.
Schools in China have double our class size and they are able to be extremely sucessful in china and the USA??? Do you knwo what the differences. They value education and most inner-city youth do not value education, hence the drop-out rate and attendance issues. STOP with the excuses.
Relationship between class size and student achievement:
Statistics for HeidiJam
• Smith and Glass published a meta-analysis combining the results of 77 empirical studies pertaining to the relationship between class size and achievement, and soon followed it with a second meta-analysis analyzing the relationship between class size and other outcomes. Overall, they found that small classes were associated with higher achievement at all grade levels… They found that the major benefits of reducing class size occurred where the number of students in the class was fewer than 20. (Glass, Gene V., Leonard S. Cahen, Mary L. Smith, and Nikola N. Filby. 1982. School class size: Research and policy. Beverly Hills, CA: Sage.)
• Robinson and Wittebols published a review of more than 100 relevant research studies using a related cluster analysis approach. Similar kinds of research studies were "clustered" or grouped together, such as studies of the same grade level, subject area, or student characteristics. They concluded that… reducing class size is especially promising for disadvantaged and minority students. (Robinson, Glen E. and James H. Wittebols. 1986. Class size research: A related cluster analysis for decision-making. Arlington, VA: Education Research Service.)
• Positive conclusions have been drawn from an analysis of a substantial database about the Texas education system. Using data from more than 800 districts containing more than 2.4 million students, Ferguson found significant relationships among teacher quality, class size, and student achievement…. Ferguson found that district student achievement fell as the student/teacher ratio increased for every student above an 18 to 1 ratio. (Ferguson, Ronald F. 1991. "Paying for public education: New evidence on how and why money matters." Harvard Journal on Legislation 28 (2): 465-498.)
• Wenglinsky published research findings concerning the relationship between class size and student achievement based on his analysis of data drawn from three national level databases. The study was designed to investigate the relationship between spending in education and student performance, and combined data from three different databases generated by the National Center for Education Statistics. Based on an analysis of data on fourth-graders in 203 districts and eighth-graders in 182 school districts from across the United States, Wenglinsky found that class size served as an important link between school education spending and student mathematics achievement…. For purposes of the analysis, Wenglinsky divided the school districts included in the study according to whether they served above-average or below-average socioeconomic status students, and whether they had above-average or below-average teacher costs. With respect to these four subgroups of districts, the largest effects for mathematics achievement gains occurred in districts where there were below-average socioeconomic status students, accompanied by above-average teacher costs. (Wenglinsky, Harold. 1997. When money matters: How educational expenditures improve student performance and how they don?t. Princeton, NJ: The Educational Testing Service, Policy Information Center.)
• Tennessee's Project STAR (Student-Teacher Achievement Ratio) and two associated data collections have made important contributions to the quality of research evidence concerning the reduction of class size. STAR was a 4-year longitudinal study of kindergarten, first-, second-, and third-grade classrooms in Tennessee which began in 1985. STAR compared classes of 13-17 students with classes of 22-26 students both with and without an additional instructional aide in the larger classes. Participating teachers did not receive any professional training focusing on teaching in reduced size classes. STAR was unusual because it possessed essential features of a controlled research experiment designed to produce reliable evidence about the effects of reducing class size [study size, random assignment, & in-school design]…. The evidence from student testing in STAR showed that the students in the smaller classes outperformed the students in the larger classes, whether or not the larger class teachers had an aide helping them. Project STARfound that: 1) Smaller class students substantially outperformed larger class students on both standardized (Stanford Achievement Tests) and curriculum-based tests (Basic Skills First). This was true for both white and minority students in smaller classes, and for smaller class students from inner city, urban, suburban, and rural schools. 2) The positive achievement effect of smaller classes on minority students was double that for majority students initially, and then was about the same. 3) A smaller proportion of students in the smaller classes was retained in-grade, and there was more early identification of students' special educational needs…. (Achilles, Charles M., Barbara A. Nye, Jayne B. Zaharias, B. DeWayne Fulton, and C. Cain. 1996. "Education's Equivalent of Medicine's Framingham Heart Study." Washington, DC: ERIC Clearinghouse. ED 402677. See also Mosteller, Frederick. 1995. "The Tennessee Study of Class Size in the Early School Grades." The Future of Children 5 (2): 113-127.)
• Subsequent research efforts provided important additional evidence on the positive effects of class size reduction. In 1989, the Lasting Benefits Study began a follow-up study to examine whether the effects of the smaller class size experience persisted when students were returned to normal size classes. The study is still ongoing. To date, the research findings include: 1) In fourth grade, students from the smaller classes still outperformed the students from the larger classes in all academic subjects. 2) In fourth grade, students from the smaller classes were better behaved than students from the larger classes (i.e., student classroom effort, initiative, and disruptiveness). 3) At least through eighth grade, a decreasing but still significant higher academic achievement level for the students from the smaller classes persists (Finn 1998. Nye, Barbara, B. DeWayne Fulton, Jayne Boyd-Zaharias, and Van A. Cain. 1995. The Lasting Benefits Study, Eighth Grade Technical Report. Nashville, TN: Center of Excellence for Research in Basic Skills, Tennessee State University.)
• In Project Challenge, Tennessee sought to put the Project STAR findings to use by implementing smaller class sizes in 16 of the state's poorest school districts. Beginning in 1990, the state phased in smaller classes at the kindergarten through third-grade levels in districts with the lowest per capita income and highest proportion of students in the subsidized school lunch program. The results of this effort were evaluated by examining the effect on the ranking of the school districts according to student performance on a statewide achievement test. The Project Challenge districts moved from near the bottom of school district performance in Tennessee to near the middle in both reading and mathematics for second grade…. In addition, in-grade retention of students was reduced in the Project Challenge districts when smaller classes were implemented. (See Mosteller 1995, Finn 1998, and Kickbusch, Ken. 1996. "Class Size." Madison, WI: Wisconsin Education Association Council, Professional Development Division.)
• Taken together, the Tennessee studies have been viewed as landmark research. Finn concluded that "this research leaves no doubt that small classes have an advantage over larger classes in school performance in the early primary grades." (Finn 1998. p. 8.) Krueger, in an external re-analysis of the Project STAR data, re-confirmed the original finding that "students in small classes scored higher on standardized tests than students in regular classes" even when the data analysis took into account adjustments for school effects, attrition, re-randomization after kindergarten, nonrandom transitions, and variability in actual class size. (Krueger, Alan. March 1998. Experimental Estimates of Education Production Functions. Princeton University and NBER.)
quote]
the smith and glass one is bs "although the extensiveness of the Glass-Smith meta-analysis was commendable, the selection of studies to include was subject to justifiable criticism. A number of studies were of short duration; many compared normal-sized classes to one-on-one tutoring; other studies did not include "realistic" class sizes as their comparison groups; and at least one study related to instruction in non-academic subjects (i.e., tennis).
As far as STAR it only addresses grades K through 3. I am under the impression that were talking about HS drop out rate??? All these studies are for children in the primary grades. there is no reasonable extrapolation beyond those grades that can be made from that data.
Do I think smaller class sizes are better and more benificial - Yes, and studies show that. But i see nothing on HS, to which the drop out rate I am addressing which is 21% for blacks. But by all means, please make the excuse, and perpetuate these phantom reasons.
You and the NAACP have something in common. Taking the trivial items in my post and reponding to them, instead of the real issues brought up...
I'm not having a conversation with you about the NAACP, so why would I respond to those issues in your post? The two comments you made above are relevant to the conversation you and I are having.
the smith and glass one is bs "although the extensiveness of the Glass-Smith meta-analysis was commendable, the selection of studies to include was subject to justifiable criticism. A number of studies were of short duration; many compared normal-sized classes to one-on-one tutoring; other studies did not include "realistic" class sizes as their comparison groups; and at least one study related to instruction in non-academic subjects (i.e., tennis).
As far as STAR it only addresses grades K through 3. I am under the impression that were talking about HS drop out rate??? All these studies are for children in the primary grades. there is no reasonable extrapolation beyond those grades that can be made from that data.
Do I think smaller class sizes are better and more benificial - Yes, and studies show that. But i see nothing on HS, to which the drop out rate I am addressing which is 21% for blacks. But by all means, please make the excuse, and perpetuate these phantom reasons.
You suggested that class size plays no part in student achievement, but instead achievement is low among black student because they don't value education. (I still can't believe any adult of this generation living in civil society who is not a member of the Klan would spout off such remarks.) I posted numerous studies that clearly demonstrate that class size has a positive impact on student achievement, motivation, behavior, etc. and you are still trying to maintain your argument by posting one criticism (which you didn't cite, by the way) of one study?
As for K-8 vs. high school, yes, these studies were done in primary school. They are relevant because having a good (or bad) foundation sets kids up for success (or failure) once they get to high school. As a parent, I'm sure you know this. When you chose (or assessed) your children's school, did you and your wife say, "Ah, let's send them to shitty primary schools; those have no effect on their high school education anyway!"? Doesn't your wife teach primary school? Do you really believe her life's work is irrelevant to her students once they turn 14? I can't believe anyone would even try to argue such a thing, which defies all knowledge and common sense.
Primary school prepares kids for high school. Plain and simple. And HALF of kids who drop out of high school do so because they entered high school without proper preparation from their primary school. So there you go. You want to cut the high school drop out rate in half? Provide better primary school preparation. You want to give kids better primary school preparation? Put them in smaller classes. This is what those statistics you asked for say. And this is what gimme tried to tell you.
But I don't think you're interested in reducing drop out rates at all. I think you're only interested in pointing fingers and denigrating entire races of people. I haven't ONCE heard you say, "Hey, what can we do to provide support for these kids to stay in school?"
You know what else a good primary school foundation does? It helps keep kids interested in school and motivated to learn. So that would help your complaint about lack of motivation right there. But you still want to bury your head in the sand and just complain, and dismiss any solutions that are presented.
And where exactly are you getting this number of 21% for the high school drop out rate for black people? According to the Department of Education's National Center for Education Statistics, the drop out rate for black people in 2008 was 9.9%. (That's less than half of what you're saying, by the way.) If you want to try to prove your point with statistics, you're going to have to cite your sources. (Until then, I'll just be lazy about citing mine too.)
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/05/dropout.rate.study/
21 percent.
Why is the drop out rate so low if they value education. Other races aren't near as bad and suffer from the same exact problems. So if its not an excuse for other races, why is it an excuse for black people? Hence my conclusion that they don't value education. attendance is extremely poor, and if the parents don't value education, then the kid won't. Why is it that hard for you to understand. I feel like you have never spent any time in the inner city. I know this from both personal experience and what my wife tells me. She teaches at majory Black school. Where do you teach??? So I will value her opinion over you.
I told you once before of how to help these kids say in school. It starts with their home life. If they are born in the common african american family with one parent who is on welfare, then it will be hard for them to stay in school. Maybe if the gov stops some of the hand outs and lets these "parents" do their job, and not having the school providing 3 meals, then maybe these parents will in turn teach their kids about the importance of education and making the right decisions. But until the gov. stops giving money and raises with each kid born, we will never be able to fix the situation. Once again, Its the PARENTS job to provide these kids with support to stay in school. No one elses. If you can't wrap that around you hard then this is a pointless arguement.
WHy do you feel that the gov needs to raise these kids???
I am not dismissing any solutions, I am just wondering why other races can get past the small/large class size and for some reason blacks can't.
Reasons why i feel that laziness is the main factor holding them back:
1. Drop out rates.
2. Prision stats.
3. Welfare stats.
4. THe condition of the where they live compared to their clothes and cars they have.
Can you please give me a reason as to why the areas where they live are so bad. If they can not even take care of their house, what makes you think they will value their education. On my way in to work every house i drive by has at least one boarded up window.. Why is it that they need help in every aspect of their life???
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/05/dropout.rate.study/
21 percent.
Why is the drop out rate so low if they value education. Other races aren't near as bad and suffer from the same exact problems. So if its not an excuse for other races, why is it an excuse for black people? Hence my conclusion that they don't value education. attendance is extremely poor, and if the parents don't value education, then the kid won't. Why is it that hard for you to understand. I feel like you have never spent any time in the inner city. I know this from both personal experience and what my wife tells me. She teaches at majory Black school. Where do you teach??? So I will value her opinion over you.
I told you once before of how to help these kids say in school. It starts with their home life. If they are born in the common african american family with one parent who is on welfare, then it will be hard for them to stay in school. Maybe if the gov stops some of the hand outs and lets these "parents" do their job, and not having the school providing 3 meals, then maybe these parents will in turn teach their kids about the importance of education and making the right decisions. But until the gov. stops giving money and raises with each kid born, we will never be able to fix the situation. Once again, Its the PARENTS job to provide these kids with support to stay in school. No one elses. If you can't wrap that around you hard then this is a pointless arguement.
WHy do you feel that the gov needs to raise these kids???
I am not dismissing any solutions, I am just wondering why other races can get past the small/large class size and for some reason blacks can't.
Reasons why i feel that laziness is the main factor holding them back:
1. Drop out rates.
2. Prision stats.
3. Welfare stats.
4. THe condition of the where they live compared to their clothes and cars they have.
Can you please give me a reason as to why the areas where they live are so bad. If they can not even take care of their house, what makes you think they will value their education. On my way in to work every house i drive by has at least one boarded up window.. Why is it that they need help in every aspect of their life???
1. Based on your posts, you are the most [deleted so as to avoid being banned] I've had the misfortune to interact with on this message board (maybe tied with aerial).
2. You don't know the first thing about me and my life experience so you need to lay off the "you've never been to the inner city" bullshit. Your comments make it clear that you don't understand the first thing about the experiences of people who are less fortunate than you.
3. I am not a teacher. My mom is a teacher. My dad was a teacher. My grandfather was a teacher. My grandmother was a teacher. My great-grandmother was a teacher. My aunt is a teacher. My other aunt is a teacher. My best friend is a teacher. And ALL of them teach in poor, minority schools.
4. The dropout rate is higher (not lower) because: a) They are more likely to be poor. (34% to 10%) b) Their parents were less likely to get a good education. c) They have teachers and principles who have lower educations and less experience than those at other schools. d) They are more likely to be working 20-40+ hours per week. e) They are more likely to attend schools with teacher shortages. f) They are more likely to get pregnant in high school due to poorer access to healthcare. g) They are less likely to be in good health. h) They are less likely to have culturally-relevant educational materials. i) Et cetera.
5. Black people don't even have nearly close to the highest drop out rate of all races. Do you have such a negative opinion of most all non-white people since they almost all have higher drop out rates? Are white people lazier than Asian people? Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. (Hmm... aren't YOU white?) Are people in Ohio lazier than people in New Jersey? (Aren't you from Ohio?) Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. Are white kids in the 80's lazier than black kids in this decade? Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. (What decade did you graduate from high school, by the way?) Are upper-middle class kids lazier than upper class kids? Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. (Are you middle class or wealthy?) Are public school kids lazier than private school kids? Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. (Do your kids go to public or private school?) Regardless of the drop-out rate of your demographic, there is a demographic with a lower drop out rate. Does that mean you are lazier than they are?
6. Once again, I absolutely cannot believe you are advocating for the starvation of children just so you can prove a point about how you are a better person.
7. Your "it's not my job" mentality is ruining this country.
8. The discussion about prison rates has been had on this board before, not too long ago and someone successfully showed that black people have higher prison rates than white people in large part because white people are given a break and black people aren't. It's that discrimination that you seem to think no longer exists.
9. We've already established that black people are more likely to be poor. That does not mean they are lazy. There has never been a time in U.S. history since the abolition of slavery or before when black people's income has caught up to that of white people. Again - discrimination and lasting oppression. That's why we need thing like Affirmative Action. Minorities in this country are NOT on an equal playing field with white people. They never have been and, it seems like if you have your way about it, they never will be. Do you believe laziness (or lack thereof) is directly proportionate to income?
10. I don't give a rat's ass if someone has a boarded up window. But I can assure you that this is a function of poverty and not race.
11. Here are some more stats for you: Black primary school kids are more likely to do homework outside of school, to spend more time on homework, to do homework at least 5 days per week, and to have their homework checked by their parents than white kids. Black high school kids are WAY more likely than white kids to have their parents follow-up on their homework. White kids are more likely than black kids (in both primary & secondary school) to have parents who never help them with their homework. Black kids are way more likely to have parents who help them with their homework more frequently than white kids. So it's absolute bullshit that black parents value education less than white people.
12. A study that controlled for school location showed that white kids are just as likely to drop out as black kids once this variable is taken into consideration. It (and other studies) also showed that much of the drop out rate for black kids can be attributed to poverty.
13. I have even more statistics, but I feel like I'm doing your homework for you. This data is from the Dept. of Ed., by the way.
14. The bottom line is whether you chose to love people or hate them, understand them or blame them, empathize or criticize. Those of you who fall into the latter categories will see the whole world from that perspective. Your attitude and perception of black people is more about you than it is about "them". I don't believe any amount of facts - or, at this point, life experience - will ever change the perspective you cling to. I just hope your children don't have to walk a mile in the shoes of the people you judge in order to learn to have a positive impact on our society instead of a negative one.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/05/dropout.rate.study/
21 percent.
Why is the drop out rate so low if they value education. Other races aren't near as bad and suffer from the same exact problems. So if its not an excuse for other races, why is it an excuse for black people? Hence my conclusion that they don't value education. attendance is extremely poor, and if the parents don't value education, then the kid won't. Why is it that hard for you to understand. I feel like you have never spent any time in the inner city. I know this from both personal experience and what my wife tells me. She teaches at majory Black school. Where do you teach??? So I will value her opinion over you.
I told you once before of how to help these kids say in school. It starts with their home life. If they are born in the common african american family with one parent who is on welfare, then it will be hard for them to stay in school. Maybe if the gov stops some of the hand outs and lets these "parents" do their job, and not having the school providing 3 meals, then maybe these parents will in turn teach their kids about the importance of education and making the right decisions. But until the gov. stops giving money and raises with each kid born, we will never be able to fix the situation. Once again, Its the PARENTS job to provide these kids with support to stay in school. No one elses. If you can't wrap that around you hard then this is a pointless arguement.
WHy do you feel that the gov needs to raise these kids???
I am not dismissing any solutions, I am just wondering why other races can get past the small/large class size and for some reason blacks can't.
Reasons why i feel that laziness is the main factor holding them back:
1. Drop out rates.
2. Prision stats.
3. Welfare stats.
4. THe condition of the where they live compared to their clothes and cars they have.
Can you please give me a reason as to why the areas where they live are so bad. If they can not even take care of their house, what makes you think they will value their education. On my way in to work every house i drive by has at least one boarded up window.. Why is it that they need help in every aspect of their life???
1. Based on your posts, you are the most [deleted so as to avoid being banned] I've had the misfortune to interact with on this message board (maybe tied with aerial).
2. You don't know the first thing about me and my life experience so you need to lay off the "you've never been to the inner city" bullshit. Your comments make it clear that you don't understand the first thing about the experiences of people who are less fortunate than you.
3. I am not a teacher. My mom is a teacher. My dad was a teacher. My grandfather was a teacher. My grandmother was a teacher. My great-grandmother was a teacher. My aunt is a teacher. My other aunt is a teacher. My best friend is a teacher. And ALL of them teach in poor, minority schools.
4. The dropout rate is higher (not lower) because: a) They are more likely to be poor. (34% to 10%) b) Their parents were less likely to get a good education. c) They have teachers and principles who have lower educations and less experience than those at other schools. d) They are more likely to be working 20-40+ hours per week. e) They are more likely to attend schools with teacher shortages. f) They are more likely to get pregnant in high school due to poorer access to healthcare. g) They are less likely to be in good health. h) They are less likely to have culturally-relevant educational materials. i) Et cetera.
5. Black people don't even have nearly close to the highest drop out rate of all races. Do you have such a negative opinion of most all non-white people since they almost all have higher drop out rates? Are white people lazier than Asian people? Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. (Hmm... aren't YOU white?) Are people in Ohio lazier than people in New Jersey? (Aren't you from Ohio?) Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. Are white kids in the 80's lazier than black kids in this decade? Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. (What decade did you graduate from high school, by the way?) Are upper-middle class kids lazier than upper class kids? Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. (Are you middle class or wealthy?) Are public school kids lazier than private school kids? Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. (Do your kids go to public or private school?) Regardless of the drop-out rate of your demographic, there is a demographic with a lower drop out rate. Does that mean you are lazier than they are?
6. Once again, I absolutely cannot believe you are advocating for the starvation of children just so you can prove a point about how you are a better person.
7. Your "it's not my job" mentality is ruining this country.
8. The discussion about prison rates has been had on this board before, not too long ago and someone successfully showed that black people have higher prison rates than white people in large part because white people are given a break and black people aren't. It's that discrimination that you seem to think no longer exists.
9. We've already established that black people are more likely to be poor. That does not mean they are lazy. There has never been a time in U.S. history since the abolition of slavery or before when black people's income has caught up to that of white people. Again - discrimination and lasting oppression. That's why we need thing like Affirmative Action. Minorities in this country are NOT on an equal playing field with white people. They never have been and, it seems like if you have your way about it, they never will be. Do you believe laziness (or lack thereof) is directly proportionate to income?
10. I don't give a rat's ass if someone has a boarded up window. But I can assure you that this is a function of poverty and not race.
11. Here are some more stats for you: Black primary school kids are more likely to do homework outside of school, to spend more time on homework, to do homework at least 5 days per week, and to have their homework checked by their parents than white kids. Black high school kids are WAY more likely than white kids to have their parents follow-up on their homework. White kids are more likely than black kids (in both primary & secondary school) to have parents who never help them with their homework. Black kids are way more likely to have parents who help them with their homework more frequently than white kids. So it's absolute bullshit that black parents value education less than white people.
12. A study that controlled for school location showed that white kids are just as likely to drop out as black kids once this variable is taken into consideration. It (and other studies) also showed that much of the drop out rate for black kids can be attributed to poverty.
13. I have even more statistics, but I feel like I'm doing your homework for you. This data is from the Dept. of Ed., by the way.
14. The bottom line is whether you chose to love people or hate them, understand them or blame them, empathize or criticize. Those of you who fall into the latter categories will see the whole world from that perspective. Your attitude and perception of black people is more about you than it is about "them". I don't believe any amount of facts - or, at this point, life experience - will ever change the perspective you cling to. I just hope your children don't have to walk a mile in the shoes of the people you judge in order to learn to have a positive impact on our society instead of a negative one.
"The best means of forming a manly, virtuous, and happy people will be found in the right education of youth. Without this foundation, every other means, in my opinion, must fail." George Washington
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Comments
I'd like to see you tell that to Eddie Vedder, by the way. I guess you don't have any respect for his lazy ass either, huh? :roll:
and by the way, #3 is a very legitimate excuse. it must be nice to be able to live in a world where you can easily dismiss situations like that heidijam.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
You bring up eddie vedder (1 person) - and your not generalizing and thinking that everbody that is poor has to help support their families.
Were both generalizing yet I am the one getting called judgemental and racisit. I am sure there is alot of both but you need to quit pretending like i some judgemental bad guy, I see what i write about everyday.
Most of the time there are reasons that people are poor especially in america, and alot of that has to do with making bad decisions in life, NOT ALL. But to come here and say they don't have the opportunity to get jobs is a straight up lie, We have AA which gives them jobs for being blacks. They are given college educations because they are black. Those are all opportunities that you choose to ignore. What other opportunities do they need??? In OHIO they are now trying to pass a law where they will sever dinner now after school as part of the school??? for free, they already give breakfast and lunch. Why is it our job to feed them on the gov dollar???
We bendover backwards to help these people get out of poverty, or to at least provide for them. You fail to see this as a positive and you think it is some sort of right for them, when it is a privlige for my family. Life isn't fair and you should not be given privliges as rights.
I'd like to see you tell that to Eddie Vedder, by the way. I guess you don't have any respect for his lazy ass either, huh? :roll:[/quote]
he probably does not know anything about ed's history...
and by the way, #3 is a very legitimate excuse. it must be nice to be able to live in a world where you can easily dismiss situations like that heidijam.[/quote]
Oh you know eddie vedder now because you read it in a book. Please, just because he said something in a book dosent mean hes telling the complete truth. Don't act like you know eddie Vedder.
#3 is as a lgeitimates excuse as them being lazy to, is it not???
I like how everything i say is judgemental and a generalization yet, what you and SCB say, its not a generalization.
I am easily dimissing your point because it has as much merit as them being lazy. Just because you saw it in a movie dosen't make it true.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZFbyEKBYNY
You with the sad eyes
Don't be discouraged
Oh I realize
It's hard to take courage
In a world full of people
You can lose sight of it all
And the darkness inside you
Can make you feel so small
But I see your true colors
Shining through
I see your true colors
And that's why I love you
So don't be afraid to let them show
Your true colors
True colors are beautiful,
Like a rainbow
Show me a smile then,
Don't be unhappy, can't remember
When I last saw you laughing
If this world makes you crazy
And you've taken all you can bear
You call me up
Because you know I'll be there
And I'll see your true colors
Shining through
I see your true colors
And that's why I love you
So don't be afraid to let them show
Your true colors
True colors are beautiful,
Like a rainbow
I did...
First of all, you'll have to remind me about these stats that supposedly back up your position, please. I recall some stats that didn't back up your position, but maybe I missed the ones that did.
Secondly, I am absolutely not generalizing because I have never claimed that everybody that is poor has to help support their families. I said this is ONE reason why people drop out of school. And I did not base this information on Eddie Vedder. I merely pointed out the irony of your suggestion that people who drop out of school to work are lazy considering that your (presumably) favorite musician falls into that category.
But the things you say about black people are judgmental. You're saying they're lazy, are you not? If that's not judgmental, I don't know what is. Gimme and I, on the other hand, are not calling black people names. We have simply listed the myriad reasons people drop out of school. We are trying to understand, which is the opposite of being judgmental. You're the one saying negative things about entire groups of people; we are not.
Your suggestion that all a black person has to do to get a job is to be black is absurd. So, if I'm black, I can just walk into McDonald's and demand a job? I can just walk into the construction company where you work and you have to hire me, just on the basis of my race? Hell, if that's the case, I'd skip McDonald's and construction work and walk my ass down to Wall Street and demand a CEO job down there - and then not do anything but collect millions of dollars, since I'm lazy and all. :roll: Black people have to work hard and have experience, training, and all other requisite qualifications to get a job, just like the rest of us do. And AA reinforces this.
If you're so against Affirmative Action, by the way, if you have such anger for an entire race of people based a this law (which you already admitted to benefiting from), you need to hate veterans, women, and people with disabilities too. They are all covered under Affirmative Action. So let's hear you say that veterans are lazy then. Go ahead. Let's hear it.
Basically, you're distorting this whole AA thing, blowing it out of proportion, and using it to justify your racism - as far as I can tell, anyway. The purpose of AA is not to give jobs to lazy, undeserving people just because they're black. The purpose is to keep employers from discriminating against people based on race, gender, etc. Do you think they should be allowed to discriminate based on these things?? AA applies to government contracts of over $50,000 with contractors with at least 50 employees. It does NOT apply to the entire workforce, as you seem to want people to believe. It says that if there are x% of minorities IN THE QUALIFIED WORK FORCE and a big company with a big government contract hires a DISPROPORTIONATELY LOW % of minorities, then that doesn't add up to equal opportunities. See, it's because there are NOT equal opportunities for all people that these laws have to exist, and a company that actually is providing equal opportunities shouldn't have anything to worry about. Do don't discriminate, and you shouldn't have a problem. And it's only the construction contracts for which the government determines what % of minorities should be hired to not be discriminatory. That accounts for 10% of the civilian work force. TEN percent. And you want to go around acting like ALL black people have jobs handed to them for no reason. Please. :roll:
I cannot believe you are actually suggesting that we should have children go hungry. And you have even made this about you again. That's nice that your children aren't going hungry, but some children are. Grow a heart for God's sake!
you are entirely correct
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
I never said people who drop out of school to work are lazy (please point out where i did) What i am saying is it is not as common as your are portraying it to be. I told you I do shopping in the ghetto area and there are hardely any teenagers working. So, please quit making it seem like a huge portion of the drop out stat is kids working to support their families because its not.
I am allowed to voice my opinion on this discussion and I think they are lazy. WHy??? bceause I see evidence of shitty parenting on a continious basis. Children on the streets late at night, no value or concern for education, continual support for their kids after multiple arrests, arguing with cops, Majority of blacks in the ghetto have no respect for the law. Have you ever been to the inner city. Based off your posts you have not.
You are looking for excuses for why the drop out rate is bad, and assuming its because the parents are working all night, or the kids are working. Well since the welfare rate is such a hight percent of them, I am going to assume that they are not working since there is a extremely low maximum for the ammount money you can make to continually be on welfare.
AA is a terrible thing - It is giving jobs to people who do not deserve them. We should provide equality and leave it at that. Life isn't fair, but we can't tilt the playing field to where privliges are now rights. Take a look at the average section 8 house (rent) cost.
If they are not lazy, please explain to me why the gettho looks like a bomb went off, they look like a war zone in cincinnati,... Please explain that one to me.
It is not the gov job to feed people, when they are already paying for their living and giving them food stamps.
Its the parents responsibility to take care of their child. Provide clothes, food, and shelter, the basics in life.
If people can not afford to have kids DONT HAV THEM. WHy is it so hard to under stand.
what are your thoughts on NAACP? by reading this i would guess it would be slightly unfavorable?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I think if focused on the right causes, there could be some benefit. I don't hear much about the cincinnati chapter unless they are making issues out of nothing.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
m
i went back
can't find a question for me from you
please show me and i will answer
and then please answer my question from above
thanks
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
You should start actually reading more of my posts. I am not blinded like many on here. This is just one example of the NAACP going after things that are so trival, it actually takes away from the serious problem of racism that still exists.
Ask your self, why does the NAACP never speak about the problem that is Black on Black crime, which today is way more prevelent than racisim.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Isn't it ironic? The NAACP is a racist organization because they promote one race above all the others while lobbying for laws that specifically favor Blacks. That is racist. They have now turned racisim into a business. If you are such a supporter, can you tell me what efforts they put forth for inner-city areas, drop out rates, black on black crime? Because I have never heard them try to tackle any of those issues. Its always phantom issues like the link above. There was a time when the NAACP actually served a purpose. Now, they really have no reason to exist, and therefore are desperately reaching and exaggerating in order to hopefully fool people into thinking they're still relevant.
So regarding my link, which you ignored, do you think thats an important issue for the NAACP to go after???
Quit playing your race card because someone disagrees with you. If clean you don't want to talk to me because I am making you look like a fool.
By in large whites have been more than accomodating to the black community over the last 30-40 years and have sympathized with their plight. But there will always be some who insist on using race as a means to guilt people into submission. Like I have said already, this tactic is beginning to lose its effectiveness.
Relationship between class size and student achievement:
Statistics for HeidiJam
• Smith and Glass published a meta-analysis combining the results of 77 empirical studies pertaining to the relationship between class size and achievement, and soon followed it with a second meta-analysis analyzing the relationship between class size and other outcomes. Overall, they found that small classes were associated with higher achievement at all grade levels… They found that the major benefits of reducing class size occurred where the number of students in the class was fewer than 20. (Glass, Gene V., Leonard S. Cahen, Mary L. Smith, and Nikola N. Filby. 1982. School class size: Research and policy. Beverly Hills, CA: Sage.)
• Robinson and Wittebols published a review of more than 100 relevant research studies using a related cluster analysis approach. Similar kinds of research studies were "clustered" or grouped together, such as studies of the same grade level, subject area, or student characteristics. They concluded that… reducing class size is especially promising for disadvantaged and minority students. (Robinson, Glen E. and James H. Wittebols. 1986. Class size research: A related cluster analysis for decision-making. Arlington, VA: Education Research Service.)
• Positive conclusions have been drawn from an analysis of a substantial database about the Texas education system. Using data from more than 800 districts containing more than 2.4 million students, Ferguson found significant relationships among teacher quality, class size, and student achievement…. Ferguson found that district student achievement fell as the student/teacher ratio increased for every student above an 18 to 1 ratio. (Ferguson, Ronald F. 1991. "Paying for public education: New evidence on how and why money matters." Harvard Journal on Legislation 28 (2): 465-498.)
• Wenglinsky published research findings concerning the relationship between class size and student achievement based on his analysis of data drawn from three national level databases. The study was designed to investigate the relationship between spending in education and student performance, and combined data from three different databases generated by the National Center for Education Statistics. Based on an analysis of data on fourth-graders in 203 districts and eighth-graders in 182 school districts from across the United States, Wenglinsky found that class size served as an important link between school education spending and student mathematics achievement…. For purposes of the analysis, Wenglinsky divided the school districts included in the study according to whether they served above-average or below-average socioeconomic status students, and whether they had above-average or below-average teacher costs. With respect to these four subgroups of districts, the largest effects for mathematics achievement gains occurred in districts where there were below-average socioeconomic status students, accompanied by above-average teacher costs. (Wenglinsky, Harold. 1997. When money matters: How educational expenditures improve student performance and how they don?t. Princeton, NJ: The Educational Testing Service, Policy Information Center.)
• Tennessee's Project STAR (Student-Teacher Achievement Ratio) and two associated data collections have made important contributions to the quality of research evidence concerning the reduction of class size. STAR was a 4-year longitudinal study of kindergarten, first-, second-, and third-grade classrooms in Tennessee which began in 1985. STAR compared classes of 13-17 students with classes of 22-26 students both with and without an additional instructional aide in the larger classes. Participating teachers did not receive any professional training focusing on teaching in reduced size classes. STAR was unusual because it possessed essential features of a controlled research experiment designed to produce reliable evidence about the effects of reducing class size [study size, random assignment, & in-school design]…. The evidence from student testing in STAR showed that the students in the smaller classes outperformed the students in the larger classes, whether or not the larger class teachers had an aide helping them. Project STARfound that: 1) Smaller class students substantially outperformed larger class students on both standardized (Stanford Achievement Tests) and curriculum-based tests (Basic Skills First). This was true for both white and minority students in smaller classes, and for smaller class students from inner city, urban, suburban, and rural schools. 2) The positive achievement effect of smaller classes on minority students was double that for majority students initially, and then was about the same. 3) A smaller proportion of students in the smaller classes was retained in-grade, and there was more early identification of students' special educational needs…. (Achilles, Charles M., Barbara A. Nye, Jayne B. Zaharias, B. DeWayne Fulton, and C. Cain. 1996. "Education's Equivalent of Medicine's Framingham Heart Study." Washington, DC: ERIC Clearinghouse. ED 402677. See also Mosteller, Frederick. 1995. "The Tennessee Study of Class Size in the Early School Grades." The Future of Children 5 (2): 113-127.)
• Subsequent research efforts provided important additional evidence on the positive effects of class size reduction. In 1989, the Lasting Benefits Study began a follow-up study to examine whether the effects of the smaller class size experience persisted when students were returned to normal size classes. The study is still ongoing. To date, the research findings include: 1) In fourth grade, students from the smaller classes still outperformed the students from the larger classes in all academic subjects. 2) In fourth grade, students from the smaller classes were better behaved than students from the larger classes (i.e., student classroom effort, initiative, and disruptiveness). 3) At least through eighth grade, a decreasing but still significant higher academic achievement level for the students from the smaller classes persists (Finn 1998. Nye, Barbara, B. DeWayne Fulton, Jayne Boyd-Zaharias, and Van A. Cain. 1995. The Lasting Benefits Study, Eighth Grade Technical Report. Nashville, TN: Center of Excellence for Research in Basic Skills, Tennessee State University.)
• In Project Challenge, Tennessee sought to put the Project STAR findings to use by implementing smaller class sizes in 16 of the state's poorest school districts. Beginning in 1990, the state phased in smaller classes at the kindergarten through third-grade levels in districts with the lowest per capita income and highest proportion of students in the subsidized school lunch program. The results of this effort were evaluated by examining the effect on the ranking of the school districts according to student performance on a statewide achievement test. The Project Challenge districts moved from near the bottom of school district performance in Tennessee to near the middle in both reading and mathematics for second grade…. In addition, in-grade retention of students was reduced in the Project Challenge districts when smaller classes were implemented. (See Mosteller 1995, Finn 1998, and Kickbusch, Ken. 1996. "Class Size." Madison, WI: Wisconsin Education Association Council, Professional Development Division.)
• Taken together, the Tennessee studies have been viewed as landmark research. Finn concluded that "this research leaves no doubt that small classes have an advantage over larger classes in school performance in the early primary grades." (Finn 1998. p. 8.) Krueger, in an external re-analysis of the Project STAR data, re-confirmed the original finding that "students in small classes scored higher on standardized tests than students in regular classes" even when the data analysis took into account adjustments for school effects, attrition, re-randomization after kindergarten, nonrandom transitions, and variability in actual class size. (Krueger, Alan. March 1998. Experimental Estimates of Education Production Functions. Princeton University and NBER.)
I'm not having a conversation with you about the NAACP, so why would I respond to those issues in your post? The two comments you made above are relevant to the conversation you and I are having.
http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.ph ... 03&start=0
You should change your screen name to Ostrich.
You suggested that class size plays no part in student achievement, but instead achievement is low among black student because they don't value education. (I still can't believe any adult of this generation living in civil society who is not a member of the Klan would spout off such remarks.) I posted numerous studies that clearly demonstrate that class size has a positive impact on student achievement, motivation, behavior, etc. and you are still trying to maintain your argument by posting one criticism (which you didn't cite, by the way) of one study?
As for K-8 vs. high school, yes, these studies were done in primary school. They are relevant because having a good (or bad) foundation sets kids up for success (or failure) once they get to high school. As a parent, I'm sure you know this. When you chose (or assessed) your children's school, did you and your wife say, "Ah, let's send them to shitty primary schools; those have no effect on their high school education anyway!"? Doesn't your wife teach primary school? Do you really believe her life's work is irrelevant to her students once they turn 14? I can't believe anyone would even try to argue such a thing, which defies all knowledge and common sense.
Primary school prepares kids for high school. Plain and simple. And HALF of kids who drop out of high school do so because they entered high school without proper preparation from their primary school. So there you go. You want to cut the high school drop out rate in half? Provide better primary school preparation. You want to give kids better primary school preparation? Put them in smaller classes. This is what those statistics you asked for say. And this is what gimme tried to tell you.
But I don't think you're interested in reducing drop out rates at all. I think you're only interested in pointing fingers and denigrating entire races of people. I haven't ONCE heard you say, "Hey, what can we do to provide support for these kids to stay in school?"
You know what else a good primary school foundation does? It helps keep kids interested in school and motivated to learn. So that would help your complaint about lack of motivation right there. But you still want to bury your head in the sand and just complain, and dismiss any solutions that are presented.
And where exactly are you getting this number of 21% for the high school drop out rate for black people? According to the Department of Education's National Center for Education Statistics, the drop out rate for black people in 2008 was 9.9%. (That's less than half of what you're saying, by the way.) If you want to try to prove your point with statistics, you're going to have to cite your sources. (Until then, I'll just be lazy about citing mine too.)
21 percent.
Why is the drop out rate so low if they value education. Other races aren't near as bad and suffer from the same exact problems. So if its not an excuse for other races, why is it an excuse for black people? Hence my conclusion that they don't value education. attendance is extremely poor, and if the parents don't value education, then the kid won't. Why is it that hard for you to understand. I feel like you have never spent any time in the inner city. I know this from both personal experience and what my wife tells me. She teaches at majory Black school. Where do you teach??? So I will value her opinion over you.
I told you once before of how to help these kids say in school. It starts with their home life. If they are born in the common african american family with one parent who is on welfare, then it will be hard for them to stay in school. Maybe if the gov stops some of the hand outs and lets these "parents" do their job, and not having the school providing 3 meals, then maybe these parents will in turn teach their kids about the importance of education and making the right decisions. But until the gov. stops giving money and raises with each kid born, we will never be able to fix the situation. Once again, Its the PARENTS job to provide these kids with support to stay in school. No one elses. If you can't wrap that around you hard then this is a pointless arguement.
WHy do you feel that the gov needs to raise these kids???
I am not dismissing any solutions, I am just wondering why other races can get past the small/large class size and for some reason blacks can't.
Reasons why i feel that laziness is the main factor holding them back:
1. Drop out rates.
2. Prision stats.
3. Welfare stats.
4. THe condition of the where they live compared to their clothes and cars they have.
Can you please give me a reason as to why the areas where they live are so bad. If they can not even take care of their house, what makes you think they will value their education. On my way in to work every house i drive by has at least one boarded up window.. Why is it that they need help in every aspect of their life???
1. Based on your posts, you are the most [deleted so as to avoid being banned] I've had the misfortune to interact with on this message board (maybe tied with aerial).
2. You don't know the first thing about me and my life experience so you need to lay off the "you've never been to the inner city" bullshit. Your comments make it clear that you don't understand the first thing about the experiences of people who are less fortunate than you.
3. I am not a teacher. My mom is a teacher. My dad was a teacher. My grandfather was a teacher. My grandmother was a teacher. My great-grandmother was a teacher. My aunt is a teacher. My other aunt is a teacher. My best friend is a teacher. And ALL of them teach in poor, minority schools.
4. The dropout rate is higher (not lower) because: a) They are more likely to be poor. (34% to 10%) b) Their parents were less likely to get a good education. c) They have teachers and principles who have lower educations and less experience than those at other schools. d) They are more likely to be working 20-40+ hours per week. e) They are more likely to attend schools with teacher shortages. f) They are more likely to get pregnant in high school due to poorer access to healthcare. g) They are less likely to be in good health. h) They are less likely to have culturally-relevant educational materials. i) Et cetera.
5. Black people don't even have nearly close to the highest drop out rate of all races. Do you have such a negative opinion of most all non-white people since they almost all have higher drop out rates? Are white people lazier than Asian people? Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. (Hmm... aren't YOU white?) Are people in Ohio lazier than people in New Jersey? (Aren't you from Ohio?) Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. Are white kids in the 80's lazier than black kids in this decade? Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. (What decade did you graduate from high school, by the way?) Are upper-middle class kids lazier than upper class kids? Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. (Are you middle class or wealthy?) Are public school kids lazier than private school kids? Must be - they have a higher drop out rate. (Do your kids go to public or private school?) Regardless of the drop-out rate of your demographic, there is a demographic with a lower drop out rate. Does that mean you are lazier than they are?
6. Once again, I absolutely cannot believe you are advocating for the starvation of children just so you can prove a point about how you are a better person.
7. Your "it's not my job" mentality is ruining this country.
8. The discussion about prison rates has been had on this board before, not too long ago and someone successfully showed that black people have higher prison rates than white people in large part because white people are given a break and black people aren't. It's that discrimination that you seem to think no longer exists.
9. We've already established that black people are more likely to be poor. That does not mean they are lazy. There has never been a time in U.S. history since the abolition of slavery or before when black people's income has caught up to that of white people. Again - discrimination and lasting oppression. That's why we need thing like Affirmative Action. Minorities in this country are NOT on an equal playing field with white people. They never have been and, it seems like if you have your way about it, they never will be. Do you believe laziness (or lack thereof) is directly proportionate to income?
10. I don't give a rat's ass if someone has a boarded up window. But I can assure you that this is a function of poverty and not race.
11. Here are some more stats for you: Black primary school kids are more likely to do homework outside of school, to spend more time on homework, to do homework at least 5 days per week, and to have their homework checked by their parents than white kids. Black high school kids are WAY more likely than white kids to have their parents follow-up on their homework. White kids are more likely than black kids (in both primary & secondary school) to have parents who never help them with their homework. Black kids are way more likely to have parents who help them with their homework more frequently than white kids. So it's absolute bullshit that black parents value education less than white people.
12. A study that controlled for school location showed that white kids are just as likely to drop out as black kids once this variable is taken into consideration. It (and other studies) also showed that much of the drop out rate for black kids can be attributed to poverty.
13. I have even more statistics, but I feel like I'm doing your homework for you. This data is from the Dept. of Ed., by the way.
14. The bottom line is whether you chose to love people or hate them, understand them or blame them, empathize or criticize. Those of you who fall into the latter categories will see the whole world from that perspective. Your attitude and perception of black people is more about you than it is about "them". I don't believe any amount of facts - or, at this point, life experience - will ever change the perspective you cling to. I just hope your children don't have to walk a mile in the shoes of the people you judge in order to learn to have a positive impact on our society instead of a negative one.
"The best means of forming a manly, virtuous, and happy people will be found in the right education of youth. Without this foundation, every other means, in my opinion, must fail." George Washington
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'