Okay, well if it's an opportunity for them, it's an opportunity for you too. And it is a poverty draft. People join the military - as you just said you did, as my dad did, as many of my friends have, etc. - because they otherwise can't afford to get ahead. It's one of the few options for good employment for poor people.
When it comes out that way it sounds negative and disrespectful to me, your dad, your friends and the many men and women who have joined the military. Like I said it was not given but earned you do not "get" anything in the military you earn it.
I know how the military works, having grown up on military bases. I know people work hard. All I'm saying is that if you're going to say it's an opportunity for one group you have to admit it's an opportunity for everyone else too. But you can't say people of color were given an opportunity and you weren't (when it comes to the military). I'm just looking for a little consistency here.
I don't understand how "poverty draft" sounds disrespectful, if that's what you were referring to. My parents found themselves with two kids when they were 21 years old and in college. They couldn't afford to feed us, so my dad joined the military so he could provide for his family. And he worked his ass off and he did provide for us. But it doesn't change the fact that he essentially had to take a job that could have gotten him killed, that my mom never wanted him to take, and that he didn't necessarily like, simply because he was poor.
Well maybe we just have different opinions of what it means to speak poorly of someone. Adjectives like "disgusting" and "sickening" fall into the disrespectful category to me, as does saying "they" are "far more racist than white people" and "use [racism] as an excuse for failure" and are "GIVEN" so much, as if they didn't earn it. Plus, you've spoken all kinds of poorly about "them" in plenty of other threads before.
I also don't think working with a lot of black people gives you some great understanding of the plight of the entire population of African Americans or gives you license to speak for them, nor do I agree with your inflated opinion of yourself as having "alot more first hand experience than most".
Yes, there are reasons for the stats on education, welfare, and prison populations, but I've never known you to have any interest in understanding them. (There's a difference between understanding and making excuses, by the way.) I've only known you to sit up on your high horse and point your finger at "them". I don't blame you; I know it makes you feel better about yourself to think that if you have more than someone else it must be because you're such a better, hard-working person.
I am not pointing my finger at anyone, I am simply telling you that I work with sucessfull black people and have for a good ammount of time, I have built friendships and have been a best man in one my friends from the compnay wedding and I would think that they have a great idea of what living in the ghetto and inner city is like. And I form my opinion from personal experiences and influenced from alot of what they say. They tell me about the inner city lifestyle and welfare and trading food stamps for drugs. Its very refreshing hearing it from black people. I am sorry but you have no clue.
There is not much dept in looking at prision stats and welfare growth stats. Education there is more depth and there is no clear cut answer. But my wife being a teacher at a 90 black school in KY i think i have a pretty good idea of why that stat is poor as well.
only known you to sit up on your high horse and point your finger at "them". I don't blame you; I know it makes you feel better about yourself to think that if you have more than someone else it must be because you're such a better, hard-working person.
So you genalize me from the 100 posts I have and base your conclusion on that. Yet I am the racists because I point out a huge pattern/trend within a race with stats.
lets discuss the topic, no need to take personal blow at me because you disagree. I don't claim to be better than anybody, but i do take pride in not relying on other people or programs for me or my family. I guess I see the racisim issue get alot better if we really make thing equal, quit with the handouts and giving people money to breed and become a leach to society.
Okay, well if it's an opportunity for them, it's an opportunity for you too. And it is a poverty draft. People join the military - as you just said you did, as my dad did, as many of my friends have, etc. - because they otherwise can't afford to get ahead. It's one of the few options for good employment for poor people.
When it comes out that way it sounds negative and disrespectful to me, your dad, your friends and the many men and women who have joined the military. Like I said it was not given but earned you do not "get" anything in the military you earn it.
they let you join didn't they? that is receiving a job is it not?
Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.
i did not twist your words. i proved a point that you had said you have never been given anything by the government, yet serving said government implies that you accepted the job given to you by the government, and you blamed others that accepted from the government in prior posts. so in essence you did the same thing that the poor people who have welfare did, you just worked harder after you were given the opportunity.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
only known you to sit up on your high horse and point your finger at "them". I don't blame you; I know it makes you feel better about yourself to think that if you have more than someone else it must be because you're such a better, hard-working person.
So you genalize me from the 100 posts I have and base your conclusion on that. Yet I am the racists because I point out a huge pattern/trend within a race with stats.
lets discuss the topic, no need to take personal blow at me because you disagree. I don't claim to be better than anybody, but i do take pride in not relying on other people or programs for me or my family. I guess I see the racisim issue get alot better if we really make thing equal, quit with the handouts and giving people money to breed and become a leach to society.
The only thing I know about your attitude about African Americans is what you have said here. Whether 100 posts or 10,000, 90% of what I have read you say about the subject leads me to believe that, generally speaking, you think black people are lazy freeloaders and you work harder than they do. Let's make your post above post # 101 that gives me that impression.
It's that attitude that I have a problem with and that I think perpetuates so many of the problems we have in this society today, which is why I am discussing it - not because I'm trying to take personal blows at you. I'm sorry if it came across like I am.
I'm wondering, though, is it really so much more acceptable when the personal blows are aimed at groups of people or people who aren't participating in the conversation? Because if I didn't feel like you were taking person blows at black people, I wouldn't even be arguing with you in the first place. So am a little confused about where the line is drawn.
Thanks for sharing what you think would make the racism issue better. Personally, I see the racism issue getting a lot better when people stop judging and stereotyping others. (In fact, I see a LOT of issues getting a lot better when people stop doing those things.)
Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.
i did not twist your words. i proved a point that you had said you have never been given anything by the government, yet serving said government implies that you accepted the job given to you by the government, and you blamed others that accepted from the government in prior posts. so in essence you did the same thing that the poor people who have welfare did, you just worked harder after you were given the opportunity.
I think you make a good point about opportunity. Opportunity is what you are given so you have a chance to work hard. Some people have more opportunity than others, which doesn't mean they aren't hard workers - just that they weren't given the opportunity to demonstrate that they are.
Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.
i did not twist your words. i proved a point that you had said you have never been given anything by the government, yet serving said government implies that you accepted the job given to you by the government, and you blamed others that accepted from the government in prior posts. so in essence you did the same thing that the poor people who have welfare did, you just worked harder after you were given the opportunity.
I think you make a good point about opportunity. Opportunity is what you are given so you have a chance to work hard. Some people have more opportunity than others, which doesn't mean they aren't hard workers - just that they weren't given the opportunity to demonstrate that they are.
i think in a roundabout way that is what i have been trying to say in all of my posts on the race issue. opportunity is the key to everything. unfortunately it takes things like affirmative action to give people opportunities that if the playing field was level would be extended to everyone regardless of race or gender. it took title IX for women to have the opportunity to have equal funding and OPPORTUNITY at high schools and colleges for atheltics and scholadships, just like it took the civil rights movement and civil rights legislation to try to level the playing field and give opportunites to african americans...and i think sharpton, jackson, and rev wright are dead on when they speak of lack of opportunities.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
The only thing I know about your attitude about African Americans is what you have said here. Whether 100 posts or 10,000, 90% of what I have read you say about the subject leads me to believe that, generally speaking, you think black people are lazy freeloaders and you work harder than they do. Let's make your post above post # 101 that gives me that impression.
It's that attitude that I have a problem with and that I think perpetuates so many of the problems we have in this society today, which is why I am discussing it - not because I'm trying to take personal blows at you. I'm sorry if it came across like I am.
I'm wondering, though, is it really so much more acceptable when the personal blows are aimed at groups of people or people who aren't participating in the conversation? Because if I didn't feel like you were taking person blows at black people, I wouldn't even be arguing with you in the first place. So am a little confused about where the line is drawn.
Thanks for sharing what you think would make the racism issue better. Personally, I see the racism issue getting a lot better when people stop judging and stereotyping others. (In fact, I see a LOT of issues getting a lot better when people stop doing those things.)
I will tell you what gives me that impression Blacks make up 12% of the population and 40% of that population is on welfare, and looking at the stats teens make up a very small portion of that. So what that tells me is that there are people that could/should be working that are not. Food staps have also increased. This info plus my experience of where I live and some people I work with, I think I have a pretty well found opinion on why I think the way I do. Do you have any stats that back up your position.
i think in a roundabout way that is what i have been trying to say in all of my posts on the race issue. opportunity is the key to everything. unfortunately it takes things like affirmative action to give people opportunities that if the playing field was level would be extended to everyone regardless of race or gender. it took title IX for women to have the opportunity to have equal funding and OPPORTUNITY at high schools and colleges for atheltics and scholadships, just like it took the civil rights movement and civil rights legislation to try to level the playing field and give opportunites to african americans...and i think sharpton, jackson, and rev wright are dead on when they speak of lack of opportunities.
Opportunity??? Like lower admission standards for colleges for a certin race? Like affirmitve action? Like requiring contractors to meet minority buisness goals in order to get a job? THey are given opportunities, maybe they should take advantage of those opportunities. With the HS graduation rate, it shows they are not taking advantage of their opportunity of education and with the increase of welfare it show they are taking advantage of GOV. handouts.
i think in a roundabout way that is what i have been trying to say in all of my posts on the race issue. opportunity is the key to everything. unfortunately it takes things like affirmative action to give people opportunities that if the playing field was level would be extended to everyone regardless of race or gender. it took title IX for women to have the opportunity to have equal funding and OPPORTUNITY at high schools and colleges for atheltics and scholadships, just like it took the civil rights movement and civil rights legislation to try to level the playing field and give opportunites to african americans...and i think sharpton, jackson, and rev wright are dead on when they speak of lack of opportunities.
Opportunity??? Like lower admission standards for colleges for a certin race? Like affirmitve action? Like requiring contractors to meet minority buisness goals in order to get a job? THey are given opportunities, maybe they should take advantage of those opportunities. With the HS graduation rate, it shows they are not taking advantage of their opportunity of education and with the increase of welfare it show they are taking advantage of GOV. handouts.
you have not been reading my prior posts or you are ignoring them. as i stated before i am finished talking about this with you because i have nothing futher to add. i have spelled out my position in plain type and you are not getting it. those are opportuities given because it is a law. and how great of an opportunity is it if generation after generations stays in the same low income neighborhood? i am trying to state the root causes of these problems and you refuse to see it instead you point fingers and call them lazy. in a perfect world everyone would have the same chance at success. i view those programs as righteous and necessary. you view them as unfair to you. quit being so selfish.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
you have not been reading my prior posts or you are ignoring them. as i stated before i am finished talking about this with you because i have nothing futher to add. i have spelled out my position in plain type and you are not getting it. those are opportuities given because it is a law. and how great of an opportunity is it if generation after generations stays in the same low income neighborhood? i am trying to state the root causes of these problems and you refuse to see it instead you point fingers and call them lazy. in a perfect world everyone would have the same chance at success. i view those programs as righteous and necessary. you view them as unfair to you. quit being so selfish.
You view AA as righteious and necessary... So you are for giving someone a job because of skin color and not because of who is better for the job???
Again I am not pointing fingers, I am just wondering why the drop out rates and welfare continues to increase.
Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.
i did not twist your words. i proved a point that you had said you have never been given anything by the government, yet serving said government implies that you accepted the job given to you by the government, and you blamed others that accepted from the government in prior posts. so in essence you did the same thing that the poor people who have welfare did, you just worked harder after you were given the opportunity.
That is a stretch saying I was given a job. I volunteered to serve just as everyone else can too. So to say I was given a job is really stretching it. I also ask you were did I blame anyone for accepting something from the government? I said in my original post that there are many programs and opportunities.
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
Like I said it wan't like there was a line of guys enlisting in the Army and they chose me since I was white and not the other since they are black, hispanic, asian, etc...
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.
i did not twist your words. i proved a point that you had said you have never been given anything by the government, yet serving said government implies that you accepted the job given to you by the government, and you blamed others that accepted from the government in prior posts. so in essence you did the same thing that the poor people who have welfare did, you just worked harder after you were given the opportunity.
That is a stretch saying I was given a job. I volunteered to serve just as everyone else can too. So to say I was given a job is really stretching it. I also ask you were did I blame anyone for accepting something from the government? I said in my original post that there are many programs and opportunities.
i volunteered and applied for my job, and when it was offered i accepted my job, so i say i was given my job. can't you say the same thing? maybe i confused you with someone else who was blaming people. at any rate i am not going to go back and search posts right now, so if i confused you with someone else i apologize.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
i volunteered and applied for my job, and when it was offered i accepted my job, so i say i was given my job. can't you say the same thing? maybe i confused you with someone else who was blaming people. at any rate i am not going to go back and search posts right now, so if i confused you with someone else i apologize.
Hey man no worries, we might not agree but I try to read what everyone says. Sometimes my comments, when I actually write them might be incendiary but I never mean them to be personal unless someone else goes that way first.
I read a lot what you write and it seems smart, I just do not agree 100% all the time.
Post edited by Dirtie_Frank on
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
you have not been reading my prior posts or you are ignoring them. as i stated before i am finished talking about this with you because i have nothing futher to add. i have spelled out my position in plain type and you are not getting it. those are opportuities given because it is a law. and how great of an opportunity is it if generation after generations stays in the same low income neighborhood? i am trying to state the root causes of these problems and you refuse to see it instead you point fingers and call them lazy. in a perfect world everyone would have the same chance at success. i view those programs as righteous and necessary. you view them as unfair to you. quit being so selfish.
You view AA as righteious and necessary... So you are for giving someone a job because of skin color and not because of who is better for the job???
Again I am not pointing fingers, I am just wondering why the drop out rates and welfare continues to increase.
aa is righteous and necessary. do you think there would be any african american coaches in football if there was no AA? no, it is mandated by the league that there have to be a certain number of minorites interviewed for each coaching position. they did that because nfl owners were an old boys club that looked after their own. that is just one example. i am talking about jobs in general. everyone deserves the same opportunity.
how about dropout rates are increasing because no child left behind was not just underfunded, but in many cases unfunded. kids are taught to excel on the standardized tests so that if they do well the school will get funding. if they do poorly they lose funding. as a result teachers have to teach for that test as opposed to a well rounded curriculum. around here, the city schools with the high african american and latino populations have high dropout rates for several reasons.. 1. lack of teachers. 2. large numbers of kids in each class, and with less teachers the student to teacher ratio makes it impossible to give quality education to every individual. 3. in many cases these kids have multiple siblings and are in a single parent household, so they drop out to get a job to help support their family. i could go on but i dont feel like sitting here all noght researching this stuff. it is all out there on the internet, how about you look it up and report back to us...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
[quote="gimmesometruth27"
i volunteered and applied for my job, and when it was offered i accepted my job, so i say i was given my job. can't you say the same thing? maybe i confused you with someone else who was blaming people. at any rate i am not going to go back and search posts right now, so if i confused you with someone else i apologize.
Hey man no worries, we might not agree but I try to read what everyone says. Sometimes my comments, when I actually write them might be incendiary but I never mean them to be personal unless someone else goes that way first.
I read a lot what you write and it seems smart, I just do not agree 100% all the time. [/quote]
no worries Dirtie. i know i say a lot of incendiary stuff as well, and i apioligize for that. it is not to be a prick it is that i am pretty passionate about debating and i am passionate about having people at least try to see where i am coming from. the written/typed word is not my greatest form of communication, and since i hate typing i come off as short sometimes. i try really hard to not get personal as well, and i think sometimes it is hard to remember that this is here for everyone to read, not just the person i am talking to.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
The only thing I know about your attitude about African Americans is what you have said here. Whether 100 posts or 10,000, 90% of what I have read you say about the subject leads me to believe that, generally speaking, you think black people are lazy freeloaders and you work harder than they do. Let's make your post above post # 101 that gives me that impression.
It's that attitude that I have a problem with and that I think perpetuates so many of the problems we have in this society today, which is why I am discussing it - not because I'm trying to take personal blows at you. I'm sorry if it came across like I am.
I'm wondering, though, is it really so much more acceptable when the personal blows are aimed at groups of people or people who aren't participating in the conversation? Because if I didn't feel like you were taking person blows at black people, I wouldn't even be arguing with you in the first place. So am a little confused about where the line is drawn.
Thanks for sharing what you think would make the racism issue better. Personally, I see the racism issue getting a lot better when people stop judging and stereotyping others. (In fact, I see a LOT of issues getting a lot better when people stop doing those things.)
I will tell you what gives me that impression
Just to be clear, you're saying that my impression of your impression is accurate?
Blacks make up 12% of the population and 40% of that population is on welfare, and looking at the stats teens make up a very small portion of that. So what that tells me is that there are people that could/should be working that are not. Food staps have also increased. This info plus my experience of where I live and some people I work with, I think I have a pretty well found opinion on why I think the way I do. Do you have any stats that back up your position.
Someone's actually ASKING me for stats!?!? :geek: I'll be sure and find some for you.
But in the meantime, I don't think your statistic backs up your position at all. You're saying that African American people are disproportionately poor. No shit. We all agree on that. It's your assessment of why they're poor that's being questioned. You think they're poor because they should be working but aren't (i.e. they're lazy, right?). I think they're poor because they don't have the same opportunities and, even when they do, they are starting way behind in the race. It takes more than a generation or two to break free of a history of oppression, and institutional racism still exists. Don't make me re-post my article about the invisible knapsack of white privilege.
Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.
Like I said it wan't like there was a line of guys enlisting in the Army and they chose me since I was white and not the other since they are black, hispanic, asian, etc...
I'm not sure I'm clear about what you're saying and don't want to assume. Are you suggesting that people of color were chosen because of their race?
aa is righteous and necessary. do you think there would be any african american coaches in football if there was no AA? no, it is mandated by the league that there have to be a certain number of minorites interviewed for each coaching position. they did that because nfl owners were an old boys club that looked after their own. that is just one example. i am talking about jobs in general. everyone deserves the same opportunity.
how about dropout rates are increasing because no child left behind was not just underfunded, but in many cases unfunded. kids are taught to excel on the standardized tests so that if they do well the school will get funding. if they do poorly they lose funding. as a result teachers have to teach for that test as opposed to a well rounded curriculum. around here, the city schools with the high african american and latino populations have high dropout rates for several reasons.. 1. lack of teachers. 2. large numbers of kids in each class, and with less teachers the student to teacher ratio makes it impossible to give quality education to every individual. 3. in many cases these kids have multiple siblings and are in a single parent household, so they drop out to get a job to help support their family. i could go on but i dont feel like sitting here all noght researching this stuff. it is all out there on the internet, how about you look it up and report back to us...
That isn't research, you also forgot #4 Kids not wanting to learn or showing up to school. Why don't you research the attendance at those innercity schools. #5 Parents not being parents, helping their kids study. In our area last year, the inner city folks used back to school money from the gov, not to buy items for their kids, but to buy x-box games and other electronic itmes. Point #1 it is very hard to find a teaching job these days. So you are making that up. #2. I got a great quaility education at UK with 300 + students in several ofmy classes. I also had large classes in high school and i got a fine education. #3 is not an excuse, maybe the parents shouldn't have children that they can't afford, and the gov shouldn't contiune to pay people on welfare who continue to have kids.
AA only makes things worse, and now there is no longer an even playing field. Now people are gettin gjobs based on skin color which is the definition of racism. I don't know how anybody could support that.
Someone's actually ASKING me for stats!?!? :geek: I'll be sure and find some for you.
But in the meantime, I don't think your statistic backs up your position at all. You're saying that African American people are disproportionately poor. No shit. We all agree on that. It's your assessment of why they're poor that's being questioned. You think they're poor because they should be working but aren't (i.e. they're lazy, right?). I think they're poor because they don't have the same opportunities and, even when they do, they are starting way behind in the race. It takes more than a generation or two to break free of a history of oppression, and institutional racism still exists. Don't make me re-post my article about the invisible knapsack of white privilege.
Name me one opportunity that they do not recieve?
I told you already about how Minority companies are GIVEN jobs. Well when you have alot of public jobs going on in the City like we do in CIncinnati, and all the Trade COntractors are required to hire Minority businesses as subs, then you have alot of minority business working, and they have to have the workers to work these jobs so they hire - guess who??? Thats right minorities. Like my company is 90% black. And guess what you would think in a time like this that they would show up to work. But guess what, many, 8 to be exact have been fired because they won't show up to work, these are people with families. They very rarely put in 40 hours a week.
You have no idea how long it takes to break free of oppression. Many of the managers I work with have broken free from it. So why can't others,
aa is righteous and necessary. do you think there would be any african american coaches in football if there was no AA? no, it is mandated by the league that there have to be a certain number of minorites interviewed for each coaching position. they did that because nfl owners were an old boys club that looked after their own. that is just one example. i am talking about jobs in general. everyone deserves the same opportunity.
how about dropout rates are increasing because no child left behind was not just underfunded, but in many cases unfunded. kids are taught to excel on the standardized tests so that if they do well the school will get funding. if they do poorly they lose funding. as a result teachers have to teach for that test as opposed to a well rounded curriculum. around here, the city schools with the high african american and latino populations have high dropout rates for several reasons.. 1. lack of teachers. 2. large numbers of kids in each class, and with less teachers the student to teacher ratio makes it impossible to give quality education to every individual. 3. in many cases these kids have multiple siblings and are in a single parent household, so they drop out to get a job to help support their family. i could go on but i dont feel like sitting here all noght researching this stuff. it is all out there on the internet, how about you look it up and report back to us...
That isn't research, you also forgot #4 Kids not wanting to learn or showing up to school. Why don't you research the attendance at those innercity schools. #5 Parents not being parents, helping their kids study. In our area last year, the inner city folks used back to school money from the gov, not to buy items for their kids, but to buy x-box games and other electronic itmes. Point #1 it is very hard to find a teaching job these days. So you are making that up. #2. I got a great quaility education at UK with 300 + students in several ofmy classes. I also had large classes in high school and i got a fine education. #3 is not an excuse, maybe the parents shouldn't have children that they can't afford, and the gov shouldn't contiune to pay people on welfare who continue to have kids.
AA only makes things worse, and now there is no longer an even playing field. Now people are gettin gjobs based on skin color which is the definition of racism. I don't know how anybody could support that.
i will give you number 4, but that is not nearly the number of kids you make it out to be. as far as attendance goes, how are the kids gonna get to school? most of the inner city schools here do not even have busses, so the kids have to cab it (at the expense of the school district) or find a ride somewhere else. and if it is a single parent household many times the parents can't take them. have you ever worked in a school???? i used to for 7 years before i took my current job. they were having to lay off teachers left and right and cut pay for the ones they kept to stay within their budget for the lasy 5 years i was there, as a result class size skyrocketed. and when you have more kids for each teacher, law of averages says some will do well but more will struggle or ultimately fail. its simple mathematics right there. i experienced it so you can not tell me i am making this shit up. as far as getting a great education at UK, that is a college lecture hall, not a high school. college kids attend class because they want to be there and they are paying for it, not the state like a high school. all of us with a degree or two have attended courses with 300+ students in them so that is not a major accomplishment. and my number 3 is not an excuse, it is a FACT. so you say the government should cut off people on welfare that have more kids? how will the family survive if their stipend is cut off?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
aa is righteous and necessary. do you think there would be any african american coaches in football if there was no AA? no, it is mandated by the league that there have to be a certain number of minorites interviewed for each coaching position. they did that because nfl owners were an old boys club that looked after their own. that is just one example. i am talking about jobs in general. everyone deserves the same opportunity.
how about dropout rates are increasing because no child left behind was not just underfunded, but in many cases unfunded. kids are taught to excel on the standardized tests so that if they do well the school will get funding. if they do poorly they lose funding. as a result teachers have to teach for that test as opposed to a well rounded curriculum. around here, the city schools with the high african american and latino populations have high dropout rates for several reasons.. 1. lack of teachers. 2. large numbers of kids in each class, and with less teachers the student to teacher ratio makes it impossible to give quality education to every individual. 3. in many cases these kids have multiple siblings and are in a single parent household, so they drop out to get a job to help support their family. i could go on but i dont feel like sitting here all noght researching this stuff. it is all out there on the internet, how about you look it up and report back to us...
That isn't research, you also forgot #4 Kids not wanting to learn or showing up to school. Why don't you research the attendance at those innercity schools. #5 Parents not being parents, helping their kids study. In our area last year, the inner city folks used back to school money from the gov, not to buy items for their kids, but to buy x-box games and other electronic itmes. Point #1 it is very hard to find a teaching job these days. So you are making that up. #2. I got a great quaility education at UK with 300 + students in several ofmy classes. I also had large classes in high school and i got a fine education. #3 is not an excuse, maybe the parents shouldn't have children that they can't afford, and the gov shouldn't contiune to pay people on welfare who continue to have kids.
You can't be serious!! Seriously?? You've got to be kidding!
#4 You can't blame kids for anything. They're kids for God's sake.
#5 We went through this all before in the thread where you were whining about poor people not having a good hockey coach or some such thing. Parents who have to work all the time don't have as much time to study with their kids. And since you're so up on statistics, I'd like to know exactly what proportion of inner city folks used back to school money for x-box games for you to be citing that as a reason for poor graduation rates.
#1 Making that up??? WTF??? It's hard to find teaching jobs AND there aren't enough teachers because schools are fucking broke. And schools in poor neighborhoods are particularly broke since property taxes pay are what's used to fund the neighborhood schools (at least here, anyway).
#2 Are you for fucking real??!!?? Even the most ridiculous conservatives I know know that large class sizes make for poorer educations. And you're suggesting that 300 kids should be fine?! How can you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously with that kind of nonsense?
#3 First of all, if you think needing to drop out of school to help support your family is irrelevant than you truly have no fucking clue about the real world for so many of the people you claim to have special knowledge of. Secondly, about having kids... I think my head is going to explode. You don't have the slightest fucking idea what you're talking about. Not even a little bit of a clue.
:evil:
Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.
Like I said it wan't like there was a line of guys enlisting in the Army and they chose me since I was white and not the other since they are black, hispanic, asian, etc...
I'm not sure I'm clear about what you're saying and don't want to assume. Are you suggesting that people of color were chosen because of their race?
No what I am saying is that no one enlists and is accepted into the military based on color or religion or whatever else. All you need is to have a GED and be somewhat physically fit.
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
You can't be serious!! Seriously?? You've got to be kidding!
#4 You can't blame kids for anything. They're kids for God's sake.
#5 We went through this all before in the thread where you were whining about poor people not having a good hockey coach or some such thing. Parents who have to work all the time don't have as much time to study with their kids. And since you're so up on statistics, I'd like to know exactly what proportion of inner city folks used back to school money for x-box games for you to be citing that as a reason for poor graduation rates.
#1 Making that up??? WTF??? It's hard to find teaching jobs AND there aren't enough teachers because schools are fucking broke. And schools in poor neighborhoods are particularly broke since property taxes pay are what's used to fund the neighborhood schools (at least here, anyway).
#2 Are you for fucking real??!!?? Even the most ridiculous conservatives I know know that large class sizes make for poorer educations. And you're suggesting that 300 kids should be fine?! How can you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously with that kind of nonsense?
#3 First of all, if you think needing to drop out of school to help support your family is irrelevant than you truly have no fucking clue about the real world for so many of the people you claim to have special knowledge of. Secondly, about having kids... I think my head is going to explode. You don't have the slightest fucking idea what you're talking about. Not even a little bit of a clue.
:evil:
#4 You can't blame kids for anything??? I guess not but you can blame the parents, and you can't force kids to learn if they don't want to thats their fault.
#5 was an article in the CIncinnati post, last summer, I don't have any stats, but its was a newspaper article.
#1 & #2 That is probably true about teachers in some stats but don't paint that picture on all. I am not a conservative, and i never said there should be 300 students in a HS calss, Please share with me these large class sized, all through my school it was 20 to 30 students in a class, If its the same today that is no excuse.
#3 Cincinnati public schools are terrible and all my grocery shopping and shhopping in general is done in a ghetto area I rarely see minorities at HS age working at these stores, so where are they working at???
And what about having kids. You think its reasonable to have kids that you can't support. :roll:
one study in florida does not generalize to the states of missouri where i used to work, and the state of illinois where i work now that if broke as fuck.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
please show me the lies here and
if there are none
why the media explosion
Wright spoke of the United States taking land from the Indian tribes by what he labeled as terror, bombing Grenada, Panama, Libya, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, and argued that the United States supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and South Africa. He said that his parishioners' response should be to examine their relationship with God, not go "from the hatred of armed enemies to the hatred of unarmed innocents." His comment (quoting Malcolm X) that "America's chickens are coming home to roost" was widely interpreted as meaning that America had brought the September 11, 2001 attacks upon itself.[16][17][18] ABC News broadcast clips[19] from the sermon[1][20] in which Wright said:
"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye... and now we are indignant, because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."
Later, Wright continued :
"Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism. A white ambassador said that y'all, not a black militant. Not a reverend who preaches about racism. An ambassador whose eyes are wide open and who is trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice upon which we are now poised. The ambassador said the people that we have wounded don't have the military capability we have. But they do have individuals who are willing to die and take thousands with them. And we need to come to grips with that."[19]
[edit] "Confusing God and Government"
Clips from a sermon that Wright gave, entitled "Confusing God and Government", were also shown on ABC's Good Morning America[1] and Fox News. In the sermon, Wright first makes the distinction between God and governments, and points out that many governments in the past have failed: "Where governments lie, God does not lie. Where governments change, God does not change."[21] Wright then states:
"[The United States] government lied about their belief that all men were created equal. The truth is they believed that all white men were created equal. The truth is they did not even believe that white women were created equal, in creation nor civilization. The government had to pass an amendment to the Constitution to get white women the vote. Then the government had to pass an equal rights amendment to get equal protection under the law for women. The government still thinks a woman has no rights over her own body, and between Uncle Clarence who sexually harassed Anita Hill, and a closeted Klan court, that is a throwback to the 19th century, handpicked by Daddy Bush, Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, between Clarence and that stacked court, they are about to undo Roe vs. Wade, just like they are about to un-do affirmative action. The government lied in its founding documents and the government is still lying today. Governments lie."
He continued:
"The government lied about Pearl Harbor too. They knew the Japanese were going to attack. Governments lie. The government lied about the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. They wanted that resolution to get us in the Vietnam War. Governments lie. The government lied about Nelson Mandela and our CIA helped put him in prison and keep him there for 27 years. The South African government lied on Nelson Mandela. Governments lie."
Wright then stated:
"The government lied about the Tuskegee experiment. They purposely infected African American men with syphilis. Governments lie. The government lied about bombing Cambodia and Richard Nixon stood in front of the camera, 'Let me make myself perfectly clear...' Governments lie. The government lied about the drugs for arms Contra scheme orchestrated by Oliver North, and then the government pardoned all the perpetrators so they could get better jobs in the government. Governments lie.... The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. Governments lie. The government lied about a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein and a connection between 9.11.01 and Operation Iraqi Freedom. Governments lie."
He spoke about the government's rationale for the Iraq War:
"The government lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq being a threat to the United States peace. And guess what else? If they don't find them some weapons of mass destruction, they gonna do just like the LAPD, and plant the some weapons of mass destruction. Governments lie."
Wright then commented on God and government:
"And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent fairly, she failed. She put them on reservations. When it came to treating her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in internment prison camps. When it came to treating her citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains, the government put them on slave quarters, put them on auction blocks, put them in cotton field, put them in inferior schools, put them in substandard housing, put them in scientific experiments, put them in the lowest paying jobs, put them outside the equal protection of the law, kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness. The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America — that's in the Bible — for killing innocent people. God damn America, for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America, as long as she tries to act like she is God, and she is supreme. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent.."[21][22][23][24]
you dont get to get off that easy, go back and answer my questions, why do you do that ed, try to corner someone into something and then are so surprised they do it you are rendered speechless and change the subject
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
You have no idea how long it takes to break free of oppression. Many of the managers I work with have broken free from it. So why can't others,
We're talking about entire populations here, not just a few guys you know. That whole argument that because Colin Powell or Barack Obama were able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, black people as a whole are no longer oppressed is not founded in logic.
And what about having kids. You think its reasonable to have kids that you can't support.
I believe we've been through this before. Until people want to start supporting comprehensive sex education, equal access to reliable contraception, and abortion rights, then they have absolutely no room to judge others for having kids. Most of the people who talk such shit don't know half as much as they think they do about preventing birth anyway. And don't give me any shit about not having sex unless you are willing to never again have sex with your wife unless you want and can fully support more kids.
I think the belief that poor people just go around having a bunch of kids they can't afford so they can get more government money to support their laziness is completely out of touch with reality. And I think it's not your place or anyone else's to judge another person, especially when you have not walked in their shoes. If you ask me, such judgement is the antithesis of what it means to be a good person - and I would much rather live in a world full of poor, uneducated, pregnant, undocumented people of color any day.
Comments
I know how the military works, having grown up on military bases. I know people work hard. All I'm saying is that if you're going to say it's an opportunity for one group you have to admit it's an opportunity for everyone else too. But you can't say people of color were given an opportunity and you weren't (when it comes to the military). I'm just looking for a little consistency here.
I don't understand how "poverty draft" sounds disrespectful, if that's what you were referring to. My parents found themselves with two kids when they were 21 years old and in college. They couldn't afford to feed us, so my dad joined the military so he could provide for his family. And he worked his ass off and he did provide for us. But it doesn't change the fact that he essentially had to take a job that could have gotten him killed, that my mom never wanted him to take, and that he didn't necessarily like, simply because he was poor.
There is not much dept in looking at prision stats and welfare growth stats. Education there is more depth and there is no clear cut answer. But my wife being a teacher at a 90 black school in KY i think i have a pretty good idea of why that stat is poor as well.
lets discuss the topic, no need to take personal blow at me because you disagree. I don't claim to be better than anybody, but i do take pride in not relying on other people or programs for me or my family. I guess I see the racisim issue get alot better if we really make thing equal, quit with the handouts and giving people money to breed and become a leach to society.
Ok I was accepted to the military but I worked and earned for what I got. What a way to twist my words. I did not become accepted to Army because I am white.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
The only thing I know about your attitude about African Americans is what you have said here. Whether 100 posts or 10,000, 90% of what I have read you say about the subject leads me to believe that, generally speaking, you think black people are lazy freeloaders and you work harder than they do. Let's make your post above post # 101 that gives me that impression.
It's that attitude that I have a problem with and that I think perpetuates so many of the problems we have in this society today, which is why I am discussing it - not because I'm trying to take personal blows at you. I'm sorry if it came across like I am.
I'm wondering, though, is it really so much more acceptable when the personal blows are aimed at groups of people or people who aren't participating in the conversation? Because if I didn't feel like you were taking person blows at black people, I wouldn't even be arguing with you in the first place. So am a little confused about where the line is drawn.
Thanks for sharing what you think would make the racism issue better. Personally, I see the racism issue getting a lot better when people stop judging and stereotyping others. (In fact, I see a LOT of issues getting a lot better when people stop doing those things.)
I think you make a good point about opportunity. Opportunity is what you are given so you have a chance to work hard. Some people have more opportunity than others, which doesn't mean they aren't hard workers - just that they weren't given the opportunity to demonstrate that they are.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Again I am not pointing fingers, I am just wondering why the drop out rates and welfare continues to increase.
That is a stretch saying I was given a job. I volunteered to serve just as everyone else can too. So to say I was given a job is really stretching it. I also ask you were did I blame anyone for accepting something from the government? I said in my original post that there are many programs and opportunities.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Hey man no worries, we might not agree but I try to read what everyone says. Sometimes my comments, when I actually write them might be incendiary but I never mean them to be personal unless someone else goes that way first.
I read a lot what you write and it seems smart, I just do not agree 100% all the time.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
how about dropout rates are increasing because no child left behind was not just underfunded, but in many cases unfunded. kids are taught to excel on the standardized tests so that if they do well the school will get funding. if they do poorly they lose funding. as a result teachers have to teach for that test as opposed to a well rounded curriculum. around here, the city schools with the high african american and latino populations have high dropout rates for several reasons.. 1. lack of teachers. 2. large numbers of kids in each class, and with less teachers the student to teacher ratio makes it impossible to give quality education to every individual. 3. in many cases these kids have multiple siblings and are in a single parent household, so they drop out to get a job to help support their family. i could go on but i dont feel like sitting here all noght researching this stuff. it is all out there on the internet, how about you look it up and report back to us...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Hey man no worries, we might not agree but I try to read what everyone says. Sometimes my comments, when I actually write them might be incendiary but I never mean them to be personal unless someone else goes that way first.
I read a lot what you write and it seems smart, I just do not agree 100% all the time.
no worries Dirtie. i know i say a lot of incendiary stuff as well, and i apioligize for that. it is not to be a prick it is that i am pretty passionate about debating and i am passionate about having people at least try to see where i am coming from. the written/typed word is not my greatest form of communication, and since i hate typing i come off as short sometimes. i try really hard to not get personal as well, and i think sometimes it is hard to remember that this is here for everyone to read, not just the person i am talking to.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Just to be clear, you're saying that my impression of your impression is accurate?
Someone's actually ASKING me for stats!?!?
But in the meantime, I don't think your statistic backs up your position at all. You're saying that African American people are disproportionately poor. No shit. We all agree on that. It's your assessment of why they're poor that's being questioned. You think they're poor because they should be working but aren't (i.e. they're lazy, right?). I think they're poor because they don't have the same opportunities and, even when they do, they are starting way behind in the race. It takes more than a generation or two to break free of a history of oppression, and institutional racism still exists. Don't make me re-post my article about the invisible knapsack of white privilege.
I'm not sure I'm clear about what you're saying and don't want to assume. Are you suggesting that people of color were chosen because of their race?
AA only makes things worse, and now there is no longer an even playing field. Now people are gettin gjobs based on skin color which is the definition of racism. I don't know how anybody could support that.
Name me one opportunity that they do not recieve?
I told you already about how Minority companies are GIVEN jobs. Well when you have alot of public jobs going on in the City like we do in CIncinnati, and all the Trade COntractors are required to hire Minority businesses as subs, then you have alot of minority business working, and they have to have the workers to work these jobs so they hire - guess who??? Thats right minorities. Like my company is 90% black. And guess what you would think in a time like this that they would show up to work. But guess what, many, 8 to be exact have been fired because they won't show up to work, these are people with families. They very rarely put in 40 hours a week.
You have no idea how long it takes to break free of oppression. Many of the managers I work with have broken free from it. So why can't others,
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
You can't be serious!! Seriously?? You've got to be kidding!
#4 You can't blame kids for anything. They're kids for God's sake.
#5 We went through this all before in the thread where you were whining about poor people not having a good hockey coach or some such thing. Parents who have to work all the time don't have as much time to study with their kids. And since you're so up on statistics, I'd like to know exactly what proportion of inner city folks used back to school money for x-box games for you to be citing that as a reason for poor graduation rates.
#1 Making that up??? WTF??? It's hard to find teaching jobs AND there aren't enough teachers because schools are fucking broke. And schools in poor neighborhoods are particularly broke since property taxes pay are what's used to fund the neighborhood schools (at least here, anyway).
#2 Are you for fucking real??!!?? Even the most ridiculous conservatives I know know that large class sizes make for poorer educations. And you're suggesting that 300 kids should be fine?! How can you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously with that kind of nonsense?
#3 First of all, if you think needing to drop out of school to help support your family is irrelevant than you truly have no fucking clue about the real world for so many of the people you claim to have special knowledge of. Secondly, about having kids... I think my head is going to explode. You don't have the slightest fucking idea what you're talking about. Not even a little bit of a clue.
:evil:
No what I am saying is that no one enlists and is accepted into the military based on color or religion or whatever else. All you need is to have a GED and be somewhat physically fit.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
#5 was an article in the CIncinnati post, last summer, I don't have any stats, but its was a newspaper article.
#1 & #2 That is probably true about teachers in some stats but don't paint that picture on all. I am not a conservative, and i never said there should be 300 students in a HS calss, Please share with me these large class sized, all through my school it was 20 to 30 students in a class, If its the same today that is no excuse.
#3 Cincinnati public schools are terrible and all my grocery shopping and shhopping in general is done in a ghetto area I rarely see minorities at HS age working at these stores, so where are they working at???
And what about having kids. You think its reasonable to have kids that you can't support. :roll:
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
you dont get to get off that easy, go back and answer my questions, why do you do that ed, try to corner someone into something and then are so surprised they do it you are rendered speechless and change the subject
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
We're talking about entire populations here, not just a few guys you know. That whole argument that because Colin Powell or Barack Obama were able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, black people as a whole are no longer oppressed is not founded in logic.
I believe we've been through this before. Until people want to start supporting comprehensive sex education, equal access to reliable contraception, and abortion rights, then they have absolutely no room to judge others for having kids. Most of the people who talk such shit don't know half as much as they think they do about preventing birth anyway. And don't give me any shit about not having sex unless you are willing to never again have sex with your wife unless you want and can fully support more kids.
I think the belief that poor people just go around having a bunch of kids they can't afford so they can get more government money to support their laziness is completely out of touch with reality. And I think it's not your place or anyone else's to judge another person, especially when you have not walked in their shoes. If you ask me, such judgement is the antithesis of what it means to be a good person - and I would much rather live in a world full of poor, uneducated, pregnant, undocumented people of color any day.