the death penalty

JonnyPistachio

Godfather. wrote:

because it's fair, a life for a life and he has for-fitted his by killing this woman.

Godfather.

and JP stfuah

Ok, seriously though... You do realize that there are something like average 16,000 murders per year in the US.
And that there are on average 37 executions/yr.

So, there is no justice unless the perpetrators die?
You must be really upset then that there are like 15000 people out there just livin it up.

(You're right, btw, he has forfeited his life -- he's in jail for life.)

gimmesometruth27

Electric_Delta wrote:

chadwick wrote:

perfect bumper stickers... ready?

"death to scumbags"
"molest a child get a shotgun slug to the chest"
"rape & torture women and children, get a sword through the guts 13 times"

what else?

um...

"cruel, evil bullshit is not to be tolerated"
"child molesters should be hung until death"

anyone else have any other good fun bumper sticker ideas?

I do. How about:

*No punishment for anything!
*Enjoy life! Live without consequences!
Or maybe...
*Anarchy is the best way!

nobody has suggested any of that at all anywhere in this thread.

JonnyPistachio

Electric_Delta wrote:

I do. How about:

*No punishment for anything!
*Enjoy life! Live without consequences!
Or maybe...
*Anarchy is the best way!

haha, very funny. :roll:

Actually, The other side of this discussion that gets kinda lost (maybe it was discussed back on page 37b...)
is whether or not you think the death Pnalty is worse that living in maximum security prison forever for someone like this kid who just axed that girl and her daughter.

Personally, I'd take the DP if I had to chose. I feel its the easy way out.

wolfamongwolves

Godfather. wrote:

because it's fair, a life for a life and he has for-fitted his by killing this woman.

Godfather.

and JP stfuah

I was wondering how long it would take before the Bible justifications would start. There are so many problems with that. First, (and correct me if i'm wrong, because I'm not American), your constitution establishes church-state separation, so it seems to me that to base a legal directive on a church's teaching should be unconstitutional, no? Secondly, the old eye-for-an-eye, life-for-a-life cliché is taken out of context, and is anyway directly contradicted by other passages in the Bible, the most obvious and unambiguous of all being "Thou shalt not kill", which is a closed statement with no contextual confusion. On top of which, it tends to be Christians who use the "eye for an eye" defence, yet they seem to conveniently forget that Christ himself explicitly overrode "eye for an eye". (Matt 5)

Aside from the Biblical point, no, it's not "fair". I've repeated this point till I'm practically bored with it, but it doesn't seem to register. If killing one person is wrong, killing another person is also wrong. You cannot have it both ways just because it suits your indignation. Two wrong do not make a right, two deaths don't cancel each other out and make it "fair." Quite frankly, to say it's "fair" is a bit of a slap in the face for the victim's family, if you ask me.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

who says? do you still think they should be put to death if the victim opposes it? because from what I can gather, most of your statements revolve around retribution for the victims, but if the victim is opposed to it, then shouldn't that mean something?

Godfather. wrote:

because it's fair, a life for a life and he has for-fitted his by killing this woman.

Godfather.

and JP stfuah

Godfather.

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Electric_Delta wrote:

I do. How about:

*No punishment for anything!
*Enjoy life! Live without consequences!
Or maybe...
*Anarchy is the best way!

haha, very funny. :roll:

Actually, The other side of this discussion that gets kinda lost (maybe it was discussed back on page 37b...)
is whether or not you think the death Pnalty is worse that living in maximum security prison forever for someone like this kid who just axed that girl and her daughter.

Personally, I'd take the DP if I had to chose. I feel its the easy way out.

I almost agree with you on that ,it is too easy, life in general population with all inmates knowing what he has done....the end is almost a guarantee.

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

because it's fair, a life for a life and he has for-fitted his by killing this woman.

Godfather.

and JP stfuah

I was wondering how long it would take before the Bible justifications would start. .

back on page 2 or 3!

Hugh Freaking Dillon

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Aside from the Biblical point, no, it's not "fair". I've repeated this point till I'm practically bored with it, but it doesn't seem to register. If killing one person is wrong, killing another person is also wrong. You cannot have it both ways just because it suits your indignation. Two wrong do not make a right, two deaths don't cancel each other out and make it "fair." Quite frankly, to say it's "fair" is a bit of a slap in the face for the victim's family, if you ask me.

I don't even know why I came back to this thread. They won't ever get it.

Godfather.

Paul David wrote:

who says? do you still think they should be put to death if the victim opposes it? because from what I can gather, most of your statements revolve around retribution for the victims, but if the victim is opposed to it, then shouldn't that mean something?

Godfather. wrote:

because it's fair, a life for a life and he has for-fitted his by killing this woman.

Godfather.

and JP stfuah

I will go with a yes on that one if the victim wanted it that way but how would we/the courts know this ?

Godfather.

Godfather.

Paul David wrote:

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

because it's fair, a life for a life and he has for-fitted his by killing this woman.

Godfather.

and JP stfuah

I was wondering how long it would take before the Bible justifications would start. .

back on page 2 or 3!

I have not stated anything about the Bible on this, this is my opinion alone.

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

animals also don't murder their own for no reason. they don't kill out of emotion or fear, like humans do with the death penalty. they don't have the capacity to kill in that context. so while you can respect the animal kingdom for that, you must also acknowledge their lack of concious thought as well. you can't really compare the two.

I would sincerely hope you wouldn't kill another man because he decided to mate with your wife/steal your meal/piss on your tree.

that's "respectable" to you? that's called survival of the fittest. instinct.

eyedclaar wrote:

I have learned that my views are often times dismissed as monstrous. I believe that humans are a plague, so if I have little use for most people, try to imagine how I feel about the true bastards in our midst. When I blame our species for the woeful condition and rapid deterioration of our planet, you’ll just have to forgive me for not placing the same emphasis on the importance of human life that some of you so clearly believe. Maybe it’s because I spend my time amongst the animals and have developed a far greater respect for their honesty, directness, and bravery in which they face life, pain, and death. A wolf pack wouldn’t tolerate anti-social behavior from one its own; they wouldn’t make excuses for brother who was once kicked in the head by a moose and since then has been biting family and acting crazy. You will say we are better than wolves, but that is something you will never convince me of, and I have all of human history on my side of the argument.
Have any of you ever killed anything with your own hands that was mortally wounded? Ever seen that last flicker of life go out in something’s eyes? I have and I seem to have a whole different relationship with life and death than most people. Hell, cancer took my father when I was a child and it was the best thing that could have happened to my family. See, he wasn’t a good man, and although I know what demon made him that way, it didn’t change the damage he was doing. Cancer stopped him from doing any more.
So, maybe your beliefs make you compassionate and wise. Maybe. Or, maybe they make you all too human, impractical, and without the will to do what is necessary. Not sure. All I can do is tell where I come from, and it’s a place most of you haven’t been.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

many times the victims are the prime opponents of the death penalty sentence. we know this by listening to them.

Godfather. wrote:

Paul David wrote:

who says? do you still think they should be put to death if the victim opposes it? because from what I can gather, most of your statements revolve around retribution for the victims, but if the victim is opposed to it, then shouldn't that mean something?

Godfather. wrote:

because it's fair, a life for a life and he has for-fitted his by killing this woman.

Godfather.

and JP stfuah

I will go with a yes on that one if the victim wanted it that way but how would we/the courts know this ?

Godfather.

wolfamongwolves

Godfather. wrote:

I have not stated anything about the Bible on this, this is my opinion alone.

Godfather.

Fair enough, but it is a biblical quote.

and anyway, there were a lot of points in my post that are still relevant to your opinion, whether you meant them from the biblical perspective or not. I'd like to know what you have to say to those too.

ed243421

JonnyPistachio wrote:

ed243421 wrote:

i will never understand why they take the side of a murderer

i'm just gonna go ahead and assume you havent been along for the whole ride. Maybe read up a bit before you jump to conclusions.

johnny p

please check out the first post in this thread

ed243421

wolfamongwolves wrote:

chadwick wrote:

you have an opinion
oddly enough
i also have an opinion

... and as you would have noted had you read my posts properly, there are plenty of places where I have stated that we're all entitled to our opinions here. So good for us, we're agreed on that, then.

chadwick wrote:

also,
i am sorry some of my comments are a bit graphic
they are all true horrors that monsters have done

The problem being, though, chad, is the things you've said you want to do are just as much "horrors" as what they've done. The problem is you condemn murder and advocate murder all in the same breath.
That's the heart of my problem with where you're coming from. Surely that's not so hard to comprehend, is it?

thinking what chad wishes should happen to a murderer
is as much of a horror as the actual murders
shows me you are more concerned about the murderer than the victim(s)
and yes, i believe chad can condemn murder and advocate death to murderers in the same breath
because he's not advocating murder
one cannot murder a murderer
one can only execute a murderer

chadwick

ed243421 wrote:

wolfamongwolves wrote:

chadwick wrote:

you have an opinion
oddly enough
i also have an opinion

... and as you would have noted had you read my posts properly, there are plenty of places where I have stated that we're all entitled to our opinions here. So good for us, we're agreed on that, then.

chadwick wrote:

also,
i am sorry some of my comments are a bit graphic
they are all true horrors that monsters have done

The problem being, though, chad, is the things you've said you want to do are just as much "horrors" as what they've done. The problem is you condemn murder and advocate murder all in the same breath.
That's the heart of my problem with where you're coming from. Surely that's not so hard to comprehend, is it?

thinking what chad wishes should happen to a murderer
is as much of a horror as the actual murders
shows me you are more concerned about the murderer than the victim(s)
and yes, i believe chad can condemn murder and advocate death to murderers in the same breath
because he's not advocating murder
one cannot murder a murderer
one can only execute a murderer

i believe this to be true

wolfamongwolves

ed243421 wrote:

thinking what chad wishes should happen to a murderer
is as much of a horror as the actual murders
shows me you are more concerned about the murderer than the victim(s)
and yes, i believe chad can condemn murder and advocate death to murderers in the same breath
because he's not advocating murder
one cannot murder a murderer
one can only execute a murderer

With all due respect, i believe you are entirely mistaken on every point of your post. Your first point does not at all follow logically, and several of my previous posts completely contradict you on that point. What I am concerned with is actual jsutice, not the mindless revenge chadwick and others on here seem to seem hell-bent on confusing with justice.

Your second point is completely and objectively untrue, and I will guarantee you that there is not a single lawyer - pro- or anti- death penalty - who would agree with you on it. In fact, any dictionary definition of "murder" is enough to illustrate how nonsensical that statement is.

The fact is you, chadwick, OnTheEdge et al really want to think that there are simple, clear-cut answers, that it all fits into neat little boxes like good and evil, right and wrong, eye for an eye - easy little formulas with simple answers that don't demand any complex thought from you, or for you to have to make any difficult moral deliberations. But like it or not, the world is not like that, the answers are not that easy, and those simple, straightforward answers are just not realistic, no matter how much you all try to convince yourselves that they are.

There are real, significant and important questions that have been asked repeatedly on this thread - a thread that you started, that you asked for people's opinions on - questions that have been repeatedly been avoided or ignored because they didn't jive with the standard unthinking "kill-the-killers" dogma. It seems that for some of the more stridently vocal pro-death penalty people on here, the only interest is in making the same sweeping statements, the same wild judgments over and over again, and should they ever be challenged on it, as they have been countless times, on grounds of double-standards, inconsistency, self-contradiction, and basic lack of knowledge, the response is not to answer but to bury their heads in the sand and continue to rattle off the same hate-filled violent mantras, as if they would somehow become more valid by repetition.

It's pathetic, it really is..

catefrances

chimpanzees murder young that is not their own. and they kill when an 'alien' chimp wanders into their turf. is that killing for no reason i wonder? :think:

Paul David wrote:

animals also don't murder their own for no reason. they don't kill out of emotion or fear, like humans do with the death penalty. they don't have the capacity to kill in that context. so while you can respect the animal kingdom for that, you must also acknowledge their lack of concious thought as well. you can't really compare the two.

I would sincerely hope you wouldn't kill another man because he decided to mate with your wife/steal your meal/piss on your tree.

that's "respectable" to you? that's called survival of the fittest. instinct.

eyedclaar wrote:

I have learned that my views are often times dismissed as monstrous. I believe that humans are a plague, so if I have little use for most people, try to imagine how I feel about the true bastards in our midst. When I blame our species for the woeful condition and rapid deterioration of our planet, you’ll just have to forgive me for not placing the same emphasis on the importance of human life that some of you so clearly believe. Maybe it’s because I spend my time amongst the animals and have developed a far greater respect for their honesty, directness, and bravery in which they face life, pain, and death. A wolf pack wouldn’t tolerate anti-social behavior from one its own; they wouldn’t make excuses for brother who was once kicked in the head by a moose and since then has been biting family and acting crazy. You will say we are better than wolves, but that is something you will never convince me of, and I have all of human history on my side of the argument.
Have any of you ever killed anything with your own hands that was mortally wounded? Ever seen that last flicker of life go out in something’s eyes? I have and I seem to have a whole different relationship with life and death than most people. Hell, cancer took my father when I was a child and it was the best thing that could have happened to my family. See, he wasn’t a good man, and although I know what demon made him that way, it didn’t change the damage he was doing. Cancer stopped him from doing any more.
So, maybe your beliefs make you compassionate and wise. Maybe. Or, maybe they make you all too human, impractical, and without the will to do what is necessary. Not sure. All I can do is tell where I come from, and it’s a place most of you haven’t been.

JonnyPistachio

ed243421 wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

ed243421 wrote:

i will never understand why they take the side of a murderer

i'm just gonna go ahead and assume you havent been along for the whole ride. Maybe read up a bit before you jump to conclusions.

johnny p

please check out the first post in this thread

Whats your point? Nobody in here is taking the side of a murderer. thats ludicrous. I cant see where you deduced that from.

wolfamongwolves

JonnyPistachio wrote:

ed243421 wrote:

johnny p

please check out the first post in this thread

Whats your point? Nobody in here is taking the side of a murderer. thats ludicrous. I cant see where you deduced that from.

I think he's pointing out that he's the original poster, and that therefore that means he's up to speed. Clearly, he's not as he keeps making this tired and utterly baseless point, no matter how many times what we post proves that it's ludicrous. Some people have just decided they're right, and no facts, evidence or stronger argument will convince them otherwise.



"I will never apologise... I don't care what the facts are." GHWB