I'm not sure how anyone could not be okay with ensuring that the youth in America get a good education so that they can contribute to the success of America later.
“good education”...so you want them to go to private schools? Lol, I kid, I kid!
“private schools”...so you want them to grow up to be little terrorists like Sandsmann and Kavanaugh? Lol, I kid, I kid!
Obviously kidding if you consider them “terrorists”.
Perhaps you’d prefer “culture warrior?” Lol!
Surely you can’t agree with giving money to illegal immigrants before actual citizens?
Sure why not? They spend it better, that's ROI.
And they probably need it more....
Giving it to citizens just perpetuates the cycle of poverty. Definitely better to give to immigrants.
Legal immigrants sure, illegal....no. Illegal is illegal so why are we awarding anything to illegal?
Who's awarding anything?
It's a cost benefit analysis. Like offering rehab to a drug addict. Sure they may have done something illegal, but does punishment really fix the problem? Or is there a way to turn a bad situation into a good one?
The problem is layered to me. Providing a service (non-humanitarian in this case) to someone who is an illegal immigrant is problematic. the reason is because they did not pay into the tax system that is supporting the service. By definition, an illegal immigrant cannot pay the full range of taxes. Food, shelter, medical services are different because I feel there's a moral obligation there. There isn't a moral obligation to provide college assistance to the same person.
There isn't? Why not?
Isn't it enough as a society to decide we want to spread knowledge and educate as many people as are willing?
Because given the reality... that's a stretch.
Your country refuses to treat its sick unless they can pay. Your country has a massive homelessness problem. Poverty is a feature of it as well. It's quite a leap to think it should pay for internationals' college education when the aforementioned are as prevalent as they are.
That being said... the cure to cancer might exist within an illegal immigrant. If they show exceptional aptitude (performance in the classroom)... I am in favour of developing that resource. I just don't know how you can make that leap?
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
Imagine what life would be like for those family members that didn't receive the $70 billion? Are you against making life better in other parts of the world so folks don't have to be so desperate to travel thousands of miles to escape poverty and violence? And unless they're buying cars, gas, groceries, utilities, cable, clothes, and everything else that the average person buys on the black market, then yes, they are paying taxes. And probably also into social security and fed and state taxes if they're working with a fake SS#, money they'll never get back in tax returns or retirement. Do you think all those folks in the back of the house restaurant chains are being paid in cash? And another myth, immigrants, on average, are more law abiding and commit less crimes than native born. Who's the burden?
No I am not. I can't imagine what their life must be like to feel better off moving to another country and sending a large portion of what you make back home to the family that was unable to join you. It must be very difficult. I never disputed any of those myth/fact bullet points you listed, I never said they take more from the government than they give. But none of those points addresses the fact that $70 billion a year, and growing, is sent down south. That fact was strictly in response to the several comments I saw that stated "but they come here and work and that money goes back into the economy. It isn't costing our economy anything" Because a lot of it does not, and it does cost our economy $70 billion. All those other facts you pointed out can still be true, and they can still send $70 billion out of our economy every year. And I doubt a penny of that is taxed (at least not in this country). But yes, all the money they spend here will have sales tax. No one has denied that.
But you pivoted from "they shouldn't get college benefits because they don't contribute to the cost," to "they send $70 billion home." What percentage of what they earn and put into the economy, for all the reasons in the facts, must they earn to be able to send $70BB home? And where does that money go? How much money does corporate America send off shore to avoid taxes? And how much came back with the $1.5T tax give away?
I really think it riles people that someone can come here with nothing and within a generation be doing better than the native born, because they work hard, go to church, find their strength in their family values, pull themselves up by their boot straps and become successful. You would think they'd be a natural for the repub party but they just keep shitting on them.
I'm not sure how anyone could not be okay with ensuring that the youth in America get a good education so that they can contribute to the success of America later.
“good education”...so you want them to go to private schools? Lol, I kid, I kid!
“private schools”...so you want them to grow up to be little terrorists like Sandsmann and Kavanaugh? Lol, I kid, I kid!
Obviously kidding if you consider them “terrorists”.
Perhaps you’d prefer “culture warrior?” Lol!
Surely you can’t agree with giving money to illegal immigrants before actual citizens?
Sure why not? They spend it better, that's ROI.
And they probably need it more....
Giving it to citizens just perpetuates the cycle of poverty. Definitely better to give to immigrants.
Legal immigrants sure, illegal....no. Illegal is illegal so why are we awarding anything to illegal?
Who's awarding anything?
It's a cost benefit analysis. Like offering rehab to a drug addict. Sure they may have done something illegal, but does punishment really fix the problem? Or is there a way to turn a bad situation into a good one?
The problem is layered to me. Providing a service (non-humanitarian in this case) to someone who is an illegal immigrant is problematic. the reason is because they did not pay into the tax system that is supporting the service. By definition, an illegal immigrant cannot pay the full range of taxes. Food, shelter, medical services are different because I feel there's a moral obligation there. There isn't a moral obligation to provide college assistance to the same person.
There isn't? Why not?
Isn't it enough as a society to decide we want to spread knowledge and educate as many people as are willing?
No, I don't think there's a moral obligation for post hs education. I think it's a practical necessity to optimize one's life (I disagree with the post that college payoff isn't there... I think it is when managed properly), but you don't need college to be able to feed and clothe your family. I would only support that for legal immigrants. But keep in mind I'm very supportive of realistic paths to citizenship.
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
I think people are getting smarter about colleges and universities.
The payoff isn't there anymore for most degree programs.
Trades programs are a much greater investment.
Having huge college debts is usually related to making poor financial decisions in my opinion. I knew so many people that refused to work during college and took out the maximum amount of loan money they could to pay for living, eating, parting, etc. Get a job ya freakin losers, lol. Not to mention that the college that you go to and the degree program you choose are all CHOICES. There are plenty of ways to get through college debt free or with minimum debt. “But I want to be a doctor” is no excuse for taking out $100,000 in loans. No one to blame but yourself and your CHOICES. I agree, trade programs usually have way better payout. The people that I know that went to the community college for skills like welding or being airplane mechanics have ended up way better financially than the ones that went to expensive colleges.
It's impossible to measure ROI of a degree because of the precise choices people make in the process. Some choose private schools, out of state schools, English degrees, etc. Throw in the variable of a person's actual work ethic, ability to work well with others, charisma and now you can't control any assessment. All of these have real influence on whether the degree works for someone or not. But there is no convincing me that a person who goes 2 years to JUCO, xfers in state, and gets a degree of an 'in demand' field (nursing, computer science, engineering, etc.) isn't better set up long term vs one that chooses to be a HVAC tech.
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
I think people are getting smarter about colleges and universities.
The payoff isn't there anymore for most degree programs.
Trades programs are a much greater investment.
Having huge college debts is usually related to making poor financial decisions in my opinion. I knew so many people that refused to work during college and took out the maximum amount of loan money they could to pay for living, eating, parting, etc. Get a job ya freakin losers, lol. Not to mention that the college that you go to and the degree program you choose are all CHOICES. There are plenty of ways to get through college debt free or with minimum debt. “But I want to be a doctor” is no excuse for taking out $100,000 in loans. No one to blame but yourself and your CHOICES. I agree, trade programs usually have way better payout. The people that I know that went to the community college for skills like welding or being airplane mechanics have ended up way better financially than the ones that went to expensive colleges.
It's impossible to measure ROI of a degree because of the precise choices people make in the process. Some choose private schools, out of state schools, English degrees, etc. Throw in the variable of a person's actual work ethic, ability to work well with others, charisma and now you can't control any assessment. All of these have real influence on whether the degree works for someone or not. But there is no convincing me that a person who goes 2 years to JUCO, xfers in state, and gets a degree of an 'in demand' field (nursing, computer science, engineering, etc.) isn't better set up long term vs one that chooses to be a HVAC tech.
I agree for the most part, but there is nothing wrong with getting an HVAC tech degree to get a job that helps you to pay for a “better” degree. And again, some of the welders and airplane mechanics around here make well more that people with higher level degrees. But it absolutely boils down to personal responsibility and work ethic in most cases. If you do not have a sense of either of those, life is most likely going to be hard regardless of the path you choose.
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
I think people are getting smarter about colleges and universities.
The payoff isn't there anymore for most degree programs.
Trades programs are a much greater investment.
Having huge college debts is usually related to making poor financial decisions in my opinion. I knew so many people that refused to work during college and took out the maximum amount of loan money they could to pay for living, eating, parting, etc. Get a job ya freakin losers, lol. Not to mention that the college that you go to and the degree program you choose are all CHOICES. There are plenty of ways to get through college debt free or with minimum debt. “But I want to be a doctor” is no excuse for taking out $100,000 in loans. No one to blame but yourself and your CHOICES. I agree, trade programs usually have way better payout. The people that I know that went to the community college for skills like welding or being airplane mechanics have ended up way better financially than the ones that went to expensive colleges.
It's impossible to measure ROI of a degree because of the precise choices people make in the process. Some choose private schools, out of state schools, English degrees, etc. Throw in the variable of a person's actual work ethic, ability to work well with others, charisma and now you can't control any assessment. All of these have real influence on whether the degree works for someone or not. But there is no convincing me that a person who goes 2 years to JUCO, xfers in state, and gets a degree of an 'in demand' field (nursing, computer science, engineering, etc.) isn't better set up long term vs one that chooses to be a HVAC tech.
I agree for the most part, but there is nothing wrong with getting an HVAC tech degree to get a job that helps you to pay for a “better” degree. And again, some of the welders and airplane mechanics around here make well more that people with higher level degrees. But it absolutely boils down to personal responsibility and work ethic in most cases. If you do not have a sense of either of those, life is going to be hard regardless of the path you choose.
Yes, and it comes down to what makes a person happy... working with their hands or not. You have to do what will satisfy you personally. I have pushed hard on college from day one with my 3 kids. I truly believe it is the best choice for MY children. One is in college now and will graduate a year early (thank the Jesus) and I have a junior on his way (hopefully, if he gets his shit together). But I set that expectation with all three from the beginning.
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
Imagine what life would be like for those family members that didn't receive the $70 billion? Are you against making life better in other parts of the world so folks don't have to be so desperate to travel thousands of miles to escape poverty and violence? And unless they're buying cars, gas, groceries, utilities, cable, clothes, and everything else that the average person buys on the black market, then yes, they are paying taxes. And probably also into social security and fed and state taxes if they're working with a fake SS#, money they'll never get back in tax returns or retirement. Do you think all those folks in the back of the house restaurant chains are being paid in cash? And another myth, immigrants, on average, are more law abiding and commit less crimes than native born. Who's the burden?
No I am not. I can't imagine what their life must be like to feel better off moving to another country and sending a large portion of what you make back home to the family that was unable to join you. It must be very difficult. I never disputed any of those myth/fact bullet points you listed, I never said they take more from the government than they give. But none of those points addresses the fact that $70 billion a year, and growing, is sent down south. That fact was strictly in response to the several comments I saw that stated "but they come here and work and that money goes back into the economy. It isn't costing our economy anything" Because a lot of it does not, and it does cost our economy $70 billion. All those other facts you pointed out can still be true, and they can still send $70 billion out of our economy every year. And I doubt a penny of that is taxed (at least not in this country). But yes, all the money they spend here will have sales tax. No one has denied that.
But you pivoted from "they shouldn't get college benefits because they don't contribute to the cost," to "they send $70 billion home." What percentage of what they earn and put into the economy, for all the reasons in the facts, must they earn to be able to send $70BB home? And where does that money go? How much money does corporate America send off shore to avoid taxes? And how much came back with the $1.5T tax give away?
I really think it riles people that someone can come here with nothing and within a generation be doing better than the native born, because they work hard, go to church, find their strength in their family values, pull themselves up by their boot straps and become successful. You would think they'd be a natural for the repub party but they just keep shitting on them.
My stance was not "they don't contribute." My first, and only reason, was we don't take care of our own. Take care of our own first, then lets think about expanding. But when the average family is tens of thousands in debt, takes 20 years to pay off student loans, many families can;t afford health care, then why should we pay for others' education? Figure out how to take care of our own first. You wouldn't want a broken, nearly homeless family to become foster parents. Why would you want that for the country? Look how much debt we have, how much student loans we have, look at the homeless problem in nearly every major city. Solve that first. Because in reality, free education for others means higher costs for those who pay for it, and they already can't afford it.
Odd, I thought it was all these "illegals" running around.
While accurate on the “extremist related” category, it is not really a good comparison. If illegal immigrants were deamed “extremists”, they would lead the category, but they are not and should not be. There are not many stats available for tracking illegal immigrant crimes because most states do not track that measure, so any actual conclusions are based on assumptions. The only factual conclusion that could be drawn are that far-right wing extremism and illegal immigration are both unique social problems with completely different root causes.
I'm not sure how anyone could not be okay with ensuring that the youth in America get a good education so that they can contribute to the success of America later.
“good education”...so you want them to go to private schools? Lol, I kid, I kid!
“private schools”...so you want them to grow up to be little terrorists like Sandsmann and Kavanaugh? Lol, I kid, I kid!
Obviously kidding if you consider them “terrorists”.
Perhaps you’d prefer “culture warrior?” Lol!
Surely you can’t agree with giving money to illegal immigrants before actual citizens?
Sure why not? They spend it better, that's ROI.
And they probably need it more....
Giving it to citizens just perpetuates the cycle of poverty. Definitely better to give to immigrants.
Legal immigrants sure, illegal....no. Illegal is illegal so why are we awarding anything to illegal?
Who's awarding anything?
It's a cost benefit analysis. Like offering rehab to a drug addict. Sure they may have done something illegal, but does punishment really fix the problem? Or is there a way to turn a bad situation into a good one?
The problem is layered to me. Providing a service (non-humanitarian in this case) to someone who is an illegal immigrant is problematic. the reason is because they did not pay into the tax system that is supporting the service. By definition, an illegal immigrant cannot pay the full range of taxes. Food, shelter, medical services are different because I feel there's a moral obligation there. There isn't a moral obligation to provide college assistance to the same person.
There isn't? Why not?
Isn't it enough as a society to decide we want to spread knowledge and educate as many people as are willing?
Because given the reality... that's a stretch.
Your country refuses to treat its sick unless they can pay. Your country has a massive homelessness problem. Poverty is a feature of it as well. It's quite a leap to think it should pay for internationals' college education when the aforementioned are as prevalent as they are.
That being said... the cure to cancer might exist within an illegal immigrant. If they show exceptional aptitude (performance in the classroom)... I am in favour of developing that resource. I just don't know how you can make that leap?
Agreed. For the record, I firmly believe our country can afford to provide health care anyone able to dial 911 or carry themselves into a hospital. I believe we can afford a Universal Basic Income to eliminate hunger, poverty and homelessness. I believe we can educate any person to the extent that they are willing to invest their time and energy. These are the investments we should be making as a country, not walls and bombs.
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
I think people are getting smarter about colleges and universities.
The payoff isn't there anymore for most degree programs.
Trades programs are a much greater investment.
Having huge college debts is usually related to making poor financial decisions in my opinion. I knew so many people that refused to work during college and took out the maximum amount of loan money they could to pay for living, eating, parting, etc. Get a job ya freakin losers, lol. Not to mention that the college that you go to and the degree program you choose are all CHOICES. There are plenty of ways to get through college debt free or with minimum debt. “But I want to be a doctor” is no excuse for taking out $100,000 in loans. No one to blame but yourself and your CHOICES. I agree, trade programs usually have way better payout. The people that I know that went to the community college for skills like welding or being airplane mechanics have ended up way better financially than the ones that went to expensive colleges.
It's impossible to measure ROI of a degree because of the precise choices people make in the process. Some choose private schools, out of state schools, English degrees, etc. Throw in the variable of a person's actual work ethic, ability to work well with others, charisma and now you can't control any assessment. All of these have real influence on whether the degree works for someone or not. But there is no convincing me that a person who goes 2 years to JUCO, xfers in state, and gets a degree of an 'in demand' field (nursing, computer science, engineering, etc.) isn't better set up long term vs one that chooses to be a HVAC tech.
I agree for the most part, but there is nothing wrong with getting an HVAC tech degree to get a job that helps you to pay for a “better” degree. And again, some of the welders and airplane mechanics around here make well more that people with higher level degrees. But it absolutely boils down to personal responsibility and work ethic in most cases. If you do not have a sense of either of those, life is going to be hard regardless of the path you choose.
Yes, and it comes down to what makes a person happy... working with their hands or not. You have to do what will satisfy you personally. I have pushed hard on college from day one with my 3 kids. I truly believe it is the best choice for MY children. One is in college now and will graduate a year early (thank the Jesus) and I have a junior on his way (hopefully, if he gets his shit together). But I set that expectation with all three from the beginning.
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
I think people are getting smarter about colleges and universities.
The payoff isn't there anymore for most degree programs.
Trades programs are a much greater investment.
Having huge college debts is usually related to making poor financial decisions in my opinion. I knew so many people that refused to work during college and took out the maximum amount of loan money they could to pay for living, eating, parting, etc. Get a job ya freakin losers, lol. Not to mention that the college that you go to and the degree program you choose are all CHOICES. There are plenty of ways to get through college debt free or with minimum debt. “But I want to be a doctor” is no excuse for taking out $100,000 in loans. No one to blame but yourself and your CHOICES. I agree, trade programs usually have way better payout. The people that I know that went to the community college for skills like welding or being airplane mechanics have ended up way better financially than the ones that went to expensive colleges.
That is partially true. Many do take out too much in loans. But really, how much can a full time student make? Some kid just out of high school, most likely working 20 hours a week because they are in class full time. Maybe they make a few thousands a semester. Even in-state costs for public schools is tens of thousands a semester now. Not to mention society and schools push the idea of college so much, students don't even realize they have options. My last school I was directly told not to talk about community college and push a 4-year school. This was south-central LA where 98% of our students qualified for free lunch. But because it looks better for the school to advertise X% of the students applied and got accepted into college, that was all we were "allowed" to promote. A college degree is almost expected in this culture. That's why technical schools are so great and cheap, because they are struggling for students.
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
Imagine what life would be like for those family members that didn't receive the $70 billion? Are you against making life better in other parts of the world so folks don't have to be so desperate to travel thousands of miles to escape poverty and violence? And unless they're buying cars, gas, groceries, utilities, cable, clothes, and everything else that the average person buys on the black market, then yes, they are paying taxes. And probably also into social security and fed and state taxes if they're working with a fake SS#, money they'll never get back in tax returns or retirement. Do you think all those folks in the back of the house restaurant chains are being paid in cash? And another myth, immigrants, on average, are more law abiding and commit less crimes than native born. Who's the burden?
No I am not. I can't imagine what their life must be like to feel better off moving to another country and sending a large portion of what you make back home to the family that was unable to join you. It must be very difficult. I never disputed any of those myth/fact bullet points you listed, I never said they take more from the government than they give. But none of those points addresses the fact that $70 billion a year, and growing, is sent down south. That fact was strictly in response to the several comments I saw that stated "but they come here and work and that money goes back into the economy. It isn't costing our economy anything" Because a lot of it does not, and it does cost our economy $70 billion. All those other facts you pointed out can still be true, and they can still send $70 billion out of our economy every year. And I doubt a penny of that is taxed (at least not in this country). But yes, all the money they spend here will have sales tax. No one has denied that.
But you pivoted from "they shouldn't get college benefits because they don't contribute to the cost," to "they send $70 billion home." What percentage of what they earn and put into the economy, for all the reasons in the facts, must they earn to be able to send $70BB home? And where does that money go? How much money does corporate America send off shore to avoid taxes? And how much came back with the $1.5T tax give away?
I really think it riles people that someone can come here with nothing and within a generation be doing better than the native born, because they work hard, go to church, find their strength in their family values, pull themselves up by their boot straps and become successful. You would think they'd be a natural for the repub party but they just keep shitting on them.
My stance was not "they don't contribute." My first, and only reason, was we don't take care of our own. Take care of our own first, then lets think about expanding. But when the average family is tens of thousands in debt, takes 20 years to pay off student loans, many families can;t afford health care, then why should we pay for others' education? Figure out how to take care of our own first. You wouldn't want a broken, nearly homeless family to become foster parents. Why would you want that for the country? Look how much debt we have, how much student loans we have, look at the homeless problem in nearly every major city. Solve that first. Because in reality, free education for others means higher costs for those who pay for it, and they already can't afford it.
Its not "free" education. Its $5K+ to help with college expenses provided they spent the final two years of HS in NY State or within 5 years of a GED. And that $5K investment prevents all the other stuff you're worried about. A 5 year old gets brought to the US by their parents. 13 years later, they go to college and contribute more to the economy than native born. What's not to like about that investment?
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
Imagine what life would be like for those family members that didn't receive the $70 billion? Are you against making life better in other parts of the world so folks don't have to be so desperate to travel thousands of miles to escape poverty and violence? And unless they're buying cars, gas, groceries, utilities, cable, clothes, and everything else that the average person buys on the black market, then yes, they are paying taxes. And probably also into social security and fed and state taxes if they're working with a fake SS#, money they'll never get back in tax returns or retirement. Do you think all those folks in the back of the house restaurant chains are being paid in cash? And another myth, immigrants, on average, are more law abiding and commit less crimes than native born. Who's the burden?
No I am not. I can't imagine what their life must be like to feel better off moving to another country and sending a large portion of what you make back home to the family that was unable to join you. It must be very difficult. I never disputed any of those myth/fact bullet points you listed, I never said they take more from the government than they give. But none of those points addresses the fact that $70 billion a year, and growing, is sent down south. That fact was strictly in response to the several comments I saw that stated "but they come here and work and that money goes back into the economy. It isn't costing our economy anything" Because a lot of it does not, and it does cost our economy $70 billion. All those other facts you pointed out can still be true, and they can still send $70 billion out of our economy every year. And I doubt a penny of that is taxed (at least not in this country). But yes, all the money they spend here will have sales tax. No one has denied that.
But you pivoted from "they shouldn't get college benefits because they don't contribute to the cost," to "they send $70 billion home." What percentage of what they earn and put into the economy, for all the reasons in the facts, must they earn to be able to send $70BB home? And where does that money go? How much money does corporate America send off shore to avoid taxes? And how much came back with the $1.5T tax give away?
I really think it riles people that someone can come here with nothing and within a generation be doing better than the native born, because they work hard, go to church, find their strength in their family values, pull themselves up by their boot straps and become successful. You would think they'd be a natural for the repub party but they just keep shitting on them.
My stance was not "they don't contribute." My first, and only reason, was we don't take care of our own. Take care of our own first, then lets think about expanding. But when the average family is tens of thousands in debt, takes 20 years to pay off student loans, many families can;t afford health care, then why should we pay for others' education? Figure out how to take care of our own first. You wouldn't want a broken, nearly homeless family to become foster parents. Why would you want that for the country? Look how much debt we have, how much student loans we have, look at the homeless problem in nearly every major city. Solve that first. Because in reality, free education for others means higher costs for those who pay for it, and they already can't afford it.
Its not "free" education. Its $5K+ to help with college expenses provided they spent the final two years of HS in NY State or within 5 years of a GED. And that $5K investment prevents all the other stuff you're worried about. A 5 year old gets brought to the US by their parents. 13 years later, they go to college and contribute more to the economy than native born. What's not to like about that investment?
If that were the case, I would say that it must be based on prior academic performance (like a scholarship of sorts) and not across the board. Giving someone money and saying “here, go to college” is a bad idea for illegal and native-born people. Otherwise, your ROI is going to be greatly reduced by those that do not succeed to a level that they become positive contributors to the economy and just put a heavier burden on those that do contribute. I assume none of them would be required to pay back the $5000 if they dropped out of college after the 1st semester?
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
Imagine what life would be like for those family members that didn't receive the $70 billion? Are you against making life better in other parts of the world so folks don't have to be so desperate to travel thousands of miles to escape poverty and violence? And unless they're buying cars, gas, groceries, utilities, cable, clothes, and everything else that the average person buys on the black market, then yes, they are paying taxes. And probably also into social security and fed and state taxes if they're working with a fake SS#, money they'll never get back in tax returns or retirement. Do you think all those folks in the back of the house restaurant chains are being paid in cash? And another myth, immigrants, on average, are more law abiding and commit less crimes than native born. Who's the burden?
No I am not. I can't imagine what their life must be like to feel better off moving to another country and sending a large portion of what you make back home to the family that was unable to join you. It must be very difficult. I never disputed any of those myth/fact bullet points you listed, I never said they take more from the government than they give. But none of those points addresses the fact that $70 billion a year, and growing, is sent down south. That fact was strictly in response to the several comments I saw that stated "but they come here and work and that money goes back into the economy. It isn't costing our economy anything" Because a lot of it does not, and it does cost our economy $70 billion. All those other facts you pointed out can still be true, and they can still send $70 billion out of our economy every year. And I doubt a penny of that is taxed (at least not in this country). But yes, all the money they spend here will have sales tax. No one has denied that.
But you pivoted from "they shouldn't get college benefits because they don't contribute to the cost," to "they send $70 billion home." What percentage of what they earn and put into the economy, for all the reasons in the facts, must they earn to be able to send $70BB home? And where does that money go? How much money does corporate America send off shore to avoid taxes? And how much came back with the $1.5T tax give away?
I really think it riles people that someone can come here with nothing and within a generation be doing better than the native born, because they work hard, go to church, find their strength in their family values, pull themselves up by their boot straps and become successful. You would think they'd be a natural for the repub party but they just keep shitting on them.
My stance was not "they don't contribute." My first, and only reason, was we don't take care of our own. Take care of our own first, then lets think about expanding. But when the average family is tens of thousands in debt, takes 20 years to pay off student loans, many families can;t afford health care, then why should we pay for others' education? Figure out how to take care of our own first. You wouldn't want a broken, nearly homeless family to become foster parents. Why would you want that for the country? Look how much debt we have, how much student loans we have, look at the homeless problem in nearly every major city. Solve that first. Because in reality, free education for others means higher costs for those who pay for it, and they already can't afford it.
Its not "free" education. Its $5K+ to help with college expenses provided they spent the final two years of HS in NY State or within 5 years of a GED. And that $5K investment prevents all the other stuff you're worried about. A 5 year old gets brought to the US by their parents. 13 years later, they go to college and contribute more to the economy than native born. What's not to like about that investment?
So why give 5k+ (and what is the maximum anyway?) to someone just because they are illegal immigrants? If anything, why not give it to every student and not base it off immigration status? By my point still remains, when our own citizens are in tens of thousands in debt, why would be give 5k+ to others? Solve our own issues first. If every child who wanted to go to college got a chance, and did so without being 40k in debt, then sure, I'd say start this program. But until then it doesnt make any sense.
I'm not sure how anyone could not be okay with ensuring that the youth in America get a good education so that they can contribute to the success of America later.
“good education”...so you want them to go to private schools? Lol, I kid, I kid!
“private schools”...so you want them to grow up to be little terrorists like Sandsmann and Kavanaugh? Lol, I kid, I kid!
Obviously kidding if you consider them “terrorists”.
Perhaps you’d prefer “culture warrior?” Lol!
Surely you can’t agree with giving money to illegal immigrants before actual citizens?
Sure why not? They spend it better, that's ROI.
And they probably need it more....
Giving it to citizens just perpetuates the cycle of poverty. Definitely better to give to immigrants.
Legal immigrants sure, illegal....no. Illegal is illegal so why are we awarding anything to illegal?
Agree. If we sytart handing out scholarships just because someone is an immigrant or illegal ,it would be hard to imagine that wouldn't just promote more illegal immigration. As for legal immigrants, they should be treated the same. Not given preference or excluded. I believe you need to be a resident for 2 years to qualify for in-state tuition. It only makes sense to apply that to everyone, not just citizens.
Exactly, illegal immigration should be discouraged, not rewarded. Come here, get your identification, start working and paying taxes, then you can reap the rewards of the tax funded programs.
You make it sound so easy lol like applying for a license to
I'm not sure how anyone could not be okay with ensuring that the youth in America get a good education so that they can contribute to the success of America later.
“good education”...so you want them to go to private schools? Lol, I kid, I kid!
“private schools”...so you want them to grow up to be little terrorists like Sandsmann and Kavanaugh? Lol, I kid, I kid!
Obviously kidding if you consider them “terrorists”.
Perhaps you’d prefer “culture warrior?” Lol!
Surely you can’t agree with giving money to illegal immigrants before actual citizens?
Sure why not? They spend it better, that's ROI.
And they probably need it more....
Giving it to citizens just perpetuates the cycle of poverty. Definitely better to give to immigrants.
Legal immigrants sure, illegal....no. Illegal is illegal so why are we awarding anything to illegal?
Agree. If we sytart handing out scholarships just because someone is an immigrant or illegal ,it would be hard to imagine that wouldn't just promote more illegal immigration. As for legal immigrants, they should be treated the same. Not given preference or excluded. I believe you need to be a resident for 2 years to qualify for in-state tuition. It only makes sense to apply that to everyone, not just citizens.
Exactly, illegal immigration should be discouraged, not rewarded. Come here, get your identification, start working and paying taxes, then you can reap the rewards of the tax funded programs.
You make it sound so easy lol like applying for a license to
Hahaha yeah if it’s hard then you should just skip the process and take care of it yourself.
I'm not sure how anyone could not be okay with ensuring that the youth in America get a good education so that they can contribute to the success of America later.
“good education”...so you want them to go to private schools? Lol, I kid, I kid!
“private schools”...so you want them to grow up to be little terrorists like Sandsmann and Kavanaugh? Lol, I kid, I kid!
Obviously kidding if you consider them “terrorists”.
Perhaps you’d prefer “culture warrior?” Lol!
Surely you can’t agree with giving money to illegal immigrants before actual citizens?
Sure why not? They spend it better, that's ROI.
And they probably need it more....
Giving it to citizens just perpetuates the cycle of poverty. Definitely better to give to immigrants.
Legal immigrants sure, illegal....no. Illegal is illegal so why are we awarding anything to illegal?
Agree. If we sytart handing out scholarships just because someone is an immigrant or illegal ,it would be hard to imagine that wouldn't just promote more illegal immigration. As for legal immigrants, they should be treated the same. Not given preference or excluded. I believe you need to be a resident for 2 years to qualify for in-state tuition. It only makes sense to apply that to everyone, not just citizens.
Exactly, illegal immigration should be discouraged, not rewarded. Come here, get your identification, start working and paying taxes, then you can reap the rewards of the tax funded programs.
You make it sound so easy lol like applying for a license to
Hahaha yeah if it’s hard then you should just skip the process and take care of it yourself.
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
Imagine what life would be like for those family members that didn't receive the $70 billion? Are you against making life better in other parts of the world so folks don't have to be so desperate to travel thousands of miles to escape poverty and violence? And unless they're buying cars, gas, groceries, utilities, cable, clothes, and everything else that the average person buys on the black market, then yes, they are paying taxes. And probably also into social security and fed and state taxes if they're working with a fake SS#, money they'll never get back in tax returns or retirement. Do you think all those folks in the back of the house restaurant chains are being paid in cash? And another myth, immigrants, on average, are more law abiding and commit less crimes than native born. Who's the burden?
No I am not. I can't imagine what their life must be like to feel better off moving to another country and sending a large portion of what you make back home to the family that was unable to join you. It must be very difficult. I never disputed any of those myth/fact bullet points you listed, I never said they take more from the government than they give. But none of those points addresses the fact that $70 billion a year, and growing, is sent down south. That fact was strictly in response to the several comments I saw that stated "but they come here and work and that money goes back into the economy. It isn't costing our economy anything" Because a lot of it does not, and it does cost our economy $70 billion. All those other facts you pointed out can still be true, and they can still send $70 billion out of our economy every year. And I doubt a penny of that is taxed (at least not in this country). But yes, all the money they spend here will have sales tax. No one has denied that.
But you pivoted from "they shouldn't get college benefits because they don't contribute to the cost," to "they send $70 billion home." What percentage of what they earn and put into the economy, for all the reasons in the facts, must they earn to be able to send $70BB home? And where does that money go? How much money does corporate America send off shore to avoid taxes? And how much came back with the $1.5T tax give away?
I really think it riles people that someone can come here with nothing and within a generation be doing better than the native born, because they work hard, go to church, find their strength in their family values, pull themselves up by their boot straps and become successful. You would think they'd be a natural for the repub party but they just keep shitting on them.
My stance was not "they don't contribute." My first, and only reason, was we don't take care of our own. Take care of our own first, then lets think about expanding. But when the average family is tens of thousands in debt, takes 20 years to pay off student loans, many families can;t afford health care, then why should we pay for others' education? Figure out how to take care of our own first. You wouldn't want a broken, nearly homeless family to become foster parents. Why would you want that for the country? Look how much debt we have, how much student loans we have, look at the homeless problem in nearly every major city. Solve that first. Because in reality, free education for others means higher costs for those who pay for it, and they already can't afford it.
Its not "free" education. Its $5K+ to help with college expenses provided they spent the final two years of HS in NY State or within 5 years of a GED. And that $5K investment prevents all the other stuff you're worried about. A 5 year old gets brought to the US by their parents. 13 years later, they go to college and contribute more to the economy than native born. What's not to like about that investment?
So why give 5k+ (and what is the maximum anyway?) to someone just because they are illegal immigrants? If anything, why not give it to every student and not base it off immigration status? By my point still remains, when our own citizens are in tens of thousands in debt, why would be give 5k+ to others? Solve our own issues first. If every child who wanted to go to college got a chance, and did so without being 40k in debt, then sure, I'd say start this program. But until then it doesnt make any sense.
I thought Team Trump Treason supporters were all about "personal responsibility?" Why did they take out tens of thousands of student loan debt? The gubmint made them do it? Its like $5,200 in financial aid. Did you even read the Buffalo Times article? They're kids of illegals who have graduated from public high school and have the grades to be accepted to college. Research shows they contribute more than they receive, more than native born. The program is open to native born as well, its a grant based financial aid program. Where are all the responsible native born parents and their savings for college?
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
Imagine what life would be like for those family members that didn't receive the $70 billion? Are you against making life better in other parts of the world so folks don't have to be so desperate to travel thousands of miles to escape poverty and violence? And unless they're buying cars, gas, groceries, utilities, cable, clothes, and everything else that the average person buys on the black market, then yes, they are paying taxes. And probably also into social security and fed and state taxes if they're working with a fake SS#, money they'll never get back in tax returns or retirement. Do you think all those folks in the back of the house restaurant chains are being paid in cash? And another myth, immigrants, on average, are more law abiding and commit less crimes than native born. Who's the burden?
No I am not. I can't imagine what their life must be like to feel better off moving to another country and sending a large portion of what you make back home to the family that was unable to join you. It must be very difficult. I never disputed any of those myth/fact bullet points you listed, I never said they take more from the government than they give. But none of those points addresses the fact that $70 billion a year, and growing, is sent down south. That fact was strictly in response to the several comments I saw that stated "but they come here and work and that money goes back into the economy. It isn't costing our economy anything" Because a lot of it does not, and it does cost our economy $70 billion. All those other facts you pointed out can still be true, and they can still send $70 billion out of our economy every year. And I doubt a penny of that is taxed (at least not in this country). But yes, all the money they spend here will have sales tax. No one has denied that.
But you pivoted from "they shouldn't get college benefits because they don't contribute to the cost," to "they send $70 billion home." What percentage of what they earn and put into the economy, for all the reasons in the facts, must they earn to be able to send $70BB home? And where does that money go? How much money does corporate America send off shore to avoid taxes? And how much came back with the $1.5T tax give away?
I really think it riles people that someone can come here with nothing and within a generation be doing better than the native born, because they work hard, go to church, find their strength in their family values, pull themselves up by their boot straps and become successful. You would think they'd be a natural for the repub party but they just keep shitting on them.
My stance was not "they don't contribute." My first, and only reason, was we don't take care of our own. Take care of our own first, then lets think about expanding. But when the average family is tens of thousands in debt, takes 20 years to pay off student loans, many families can;t afford health care, then why should we pay for others' education? Figure out how to take care of our own first. You wouldn't want a broken, nearly homeless family to become foster parents. Why would you want that for the country? Look how much debt we have, how much student loans we have, look at the homeless problem in nearly every major city. Solve that first. Because in reality, free education for others means higher costs for those who pay for it, and they already can't afford it.
Its not "free" education. Its $5K+ to help with college expenses provided they spent the final two years of HS in NY State or within 5 years of a GED. And that $5K investment prevents all the other stuff you're worried about. A 5 year old gets brought to the US by their parents. 13 years later, they go to college and contribute more to the economy than native born. What's not to like about that investment?
So why give 5k+ (and what is the maximum anyway?) to someone just because they are illegal immigrants? If anything, why not give it to every student and not base it off immigration status? By my point still remains, when our own citizens are in tens of thousands in debt, why would be give 5k+ to others? Solve our own issues first. If every child who wanted to go to college got a chance, and did so without being 40k in debt, then sure, I'd say start this program. But until then it doesnt make any sense.
I thought Team Trump Treason supporters were all about "personal responsibility?" Why did they take out tens of thousands of student loan debt? The gubmint made them do it? Its like $5,200 in financial aid. Did you even read the Buffalo Times article? They're kids of illegals who have graduated from public high school and have the grades to be accepted to college. Research shows they contribute more than they receive, more than native born. The program is open to native born as well, its a grant based financial aid program. Where are all the responsible native born parents and their savings for college?
I did read the article a few days ago, I forgot the specifics since the focus was on the illegal status.
What does personal responsibility have to do with the cost of college? You can be the most responsible person on the planet, college is still going to be expensive for you. The average household income is not too far off from the average cost of college. How are middle class families supposed to save up for that? I just don't get your argument, blame and outrage towards white Americans.
I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument. Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever
So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate. As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive?
Imagine what life would be like for those family members that didn't receive the $70 billion? Are you against making life better in other parts of the world so folks don't have to be so desperate to travel thousands of miles to escape poverty and violence? And unless they're buying cars, gas, groceries, utilities, cable, clothes, and everything else that the average person buys on the black market, then yes, they are paying taxes. And probably also into social security and fed and state taxes if they're working with a fake SS#, money they'll never get back in tax returns or retirement. Do you think all those folks in the back of the house restaurant chains are being paid in cash? And another myth, immigrants, on average, are more law abiding and commit less crimes than native born. Who's the burden?
No I am not. I can't imagine what their life must be like to feel better off moving to another country and sending a large portion of what you make back home to the family that was unable to join you. It must be very difficult. I never disputed any of those myth/fact bullet points you listed, I never said they take more from the government than they give. But none of those points addresses the fact that $70 billion a year, and growing, is sent down south. That fact was strictly in response to the several comments I saw that stated "but they come here and work and that money goes back into the economy. It isn't costing our economy anything" Because a lot of it does not, and it does cost our economy $70 billion. All those other facts you pointed out can still be true, and they can still send $70 billion out of our economy every year. And I doubt a penny of that is taxed (at least not in this country). But yes, all the money they spend here will have sales tax. No one has denied that.
But you pivoted from "they shouldn't get college benefits because they don't contribute to the cost," to "they send $70 billion home." What percentage of what they earn and put into the economy, for all the reasons in the facts, must they earn to be able to send $70BB home? And where does that money go? How much money does corporate America send off shore to avoid taxes? And how much came back with the $1.5T tax give away?
I really think it riles people that someone can come here with nothing and within a generation be doing better than the native born, because they work hard, go to church, find their strength in their family values, pull themselves up by their boot straps and become successful. You would think they'd be a natural for the repub party but they just keep shitting on them.
My stance was not "they don't contribute." My first, and only reason, was we don't take care of our own. Take care of our own first, then lets think about expanding. But when the average family is tens of thousands in debt, takes 20 years to pay off student loans, many families can;t afford health care, then why should we pay for others' education? Figure out how to take care of our own first. You wouldn't want a broken, nearly homeless family to become foster parents. Why would you want that for the country? Look how much debt we have, how much student loans we have, look at the homeless problem in nearly every major city. Solve that first. Because in reality, free education for others means higher costs for those who pay for it, and they already can't afford it.
Its not "free" education. Its $5K+ to help with college expenses provided they spent the final two years of HS in NY State or within 5 years of a GED. And that $5K investment prevents all the other stuff you're worried about. A 5 year old gets brought to the US by their parents. 13 years later, they go to college and contribute more to the economy than native born. What's not to like about that investment?
So why give 5k+ (and what is the maximum anyway?) to someone just because they are illegal immigrants? If anything, why not give it to every student and not base it off immigration status? By my point still remains, when our own citizens are in tens of thousands in debt, why would be give 5k+ to others? Solve our own issues first. If every child who wanted to go to college got a chance, and did so without being 40k in debt, then sure, I'd say start this program. But until then it doesnt make any sense.
I thought Team Trump Treason supporters were all about "personal responsibility?" Why did they take out tens of thousands of student loan debt? The gubmint made them do it? Its like $5,200 in financial aid. Did you even read the Buffalo Times article? They're kids of illegals who have graduated from public high school and have the grades to be accepted to college. Research shows they contribute more than they receive, more than native born. The program is open to native born as well, its a grant based financial aid program. Where are all the responsible native born parents and their savings for college?
I did read the article a few days ago, I forgot the specifics since the focus was on the illegal status.
What does personal responsibility have to do with the cost of college? You can be the most responsible person on the planet, college is still going to be expensive for you. The average household income is not too far off from the average cost of college. How are middle class families supposed to save up for that? I just don't get your argument, blame and outrage towards white Americans.
Who's outraged? Not me. I went back and re-read the article. The $5200 you quoted is an existing program, not the new one. The new one (The Dream Act) can pay for all of college. According to the article, "It will cover awards up to the tuition and fees charged by public colleges in New York"
And you were incorrect that this is open to everyone. This is strictly for immigrants. The DREAM Act (acronym for Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors Act). Being illegal doesn't seem to be part of the requirement, but one of the goals is to help grant residency and is a requirement to apply. So clearly, this is money that is only intended for illegal immigrants.
So what I, and several others have said still stands. We already can;' pay for college ourselves. This doesn't make any sense.
There are programs for citizens already. It's not like they are taking from the existing kids and giving to the Dreamers instead. The whole point is obviously to enrich America in the long run. I think those who are worried about where that money is going now are just being really shortsighted about the whole thing.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
There are programs for citizens already. It's not like they are taking from the existing kids and giving to the Dreamers instead. The whole point is obviously to enrich America in the long run. I think those who are worried about where that money is going now are just being really shortsighted about the whole thing.
Well no kidding programs for citizens...that’s kinda what they all should be.
There are programs for citizens already. It's not like they are taking from the existing kids and giving to the Dreamers instead. The whole point is obviously to enrich America in the long run. I think those who are worried about where that money is going now are just being really shortsighted about the whole thing.
Well no kidding programs for citizens...that’s kinda what they all should be.
Is it?
Because we don't spend anywhere near 100% of our budget domestically...
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
There are programs for citizens already. It's not like they are taking from the existing kids and giving to the Dreamers instead. The whole point is obviously to enrich America in the long run. I think those who are worried about where that money is going now are just being really shortsighted about the whole thing.
Well no kidding programs for citizens...that’s kinda what they all should be.
Really? And then where do the 11 million+ undocumented immigrants stand? You know, the ones that contribute MASSIVELY to the US economy and workforce? The ones who at the very least pay sales taxes and stuff? And the ones who the current school system invests time and energy in?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Who's outraged? Not me. I went back and re-read the article. The $5200 you quoted is an existing program, not the new one. The new one (The Dream Act) can pay for all of college. According to the article, "It will cover awards up to the tuition and fees charged by public colleges in New York"
And you were incorrect that this is open to everyone. This is strictly for immigrants. The DREAM Act (acronym for Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors Act). Being illegal doesn't seem to be part of the requirement, but one of the goals is to help grant residency and is a requirement to apply. So clearly, this is money that is only intended for illegal immigrants.
So what I, and several others have said still stands. We already can;' pay for college ourselves. This doesn't make any sense.
That situation will end if legislation the Assembly and Senate passed Wednesday becomes law permitting undocumented immigrants to be eligible for government-funded general awards and TAP, the state’s main college financial aid program that awards grants of up to $5,165 annually.
The Dream Act will cost an estimated $27 million.
From the NY State Assembly Speaker's Press Release:
Assembly Speaker Carl Heastie and Assemblymember Carmen De La Rosa today announced that the Assembly will again pass the New York State DREAM Act to help advance the educational opportunities of children of immigrant New Yorkers.
"The Assembly Majority recognizes that immigrants are a vital thread in the social and economic fabric of our state," said Speaker Heastie. "It is fundamentally and economically misguided to deny students who were educated in our state's public school system the tools they need to reach their academic potential and fully contribute to our state's economy. When a student's education is cut short, every New Yorker suffers."
The New York State DREAM Act (A.9605, De La Rosa) would help ease the cost of higher education for children of immigrants in New York by eliminating potential financial obstacles to obtaining state financial aid for undocumented students seeking to attend an institution of higher education. Under the proposal, these students would be eligible for general awards, performance based awards, or New York State Tuition Assistance Program (TAP) funds if they:
Attended an approved NYS high school for two or more years, graduated from an approved NYS high school and applied for attendance to a NYS college or university within five years of receiving their NYS high school diploma; or
Attended an approved NYS program for a state high school equivalency diploma, received their state high school equivalency diploma and applied for attendance to a NYS college or university within five years of receiving their state high school equivalency diploma; or
Are otherwise eligible for in-state tuition at SUNY, CUNY or community colleges as prescribed by their admission criteria.
"For most students, access to higher education is dependent on their ability to obtain financial aid," said Assemblymember Glick, chair of the Higher Education Committee. "New York needs the DREAM Act to ensure that we do not lose the intellectual and economic influence of an entire generation of people. It is unconscionable that we hand students high school diplomas and then close the door on their dreams."
Your characterization of the Dream Act is misleading as:
The average annual in-state four year, public college tuition in New York was $6,394 for the 2017-2018 academic year. This is a change of $185 from the 2015-2016 average of $6,209 and represents a 2.98% annual increase. The list of New York public colleges below provides school specific cost and value rating.
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Because given the reality... that's a stretch.
Your country refuses to treat its sick unless they can pay. Your country has a massive homelessness problem. Poverty is a feature of it as well. It's quite a leap to think it should pay for internationals' college education when the aforementioned are as prevalent as they are.
That being said... the cure to cancer might exist within an illegal immigrant. If they show exceptional aptitude (performance in the classroom)... I am in favour of developing that resource. I just don't know how you can make that leap?
But you pivoted from "they shouldn't get college benefits because they don't contribute to the cost," to "they send $70 billion home." What percentage of what they earn and put into the economy, for all the reasons in the facts, must they earn to be able to send $70BB home? And where does that money go? How much money does corporate America send off shore to avoid taxes? And how much came back with the $1.5T tax give away?
I really think it riles people that someone can come here with nothing and within a generation be doing better than the native born, because they work hard, go to church, find their strength in their family values, pull themselves up by their boot straps and become successful. You would think they'd be a natural for the repub party but they just keep shitting on them.
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But there is no convincing me that a person who goes 2 years to JUCO, xfers in state, and gets a degree of an 'in demand' field (nursing, computer science, engineering, etc.) isn't better set up long term vs one that chooses to be a HVAC tech.
Can we deport them?
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My first, and only reason, was we don't take care of our own. Take care of our own first, then lets think about expanding. But when the average family is tens of thousands in debt, takes 20 years to pay off student loans, many families can;t afford health care, then why should we pay for others' education? Figure out how to take care of our own first.
You wouldn't want a broken, nearly homeless family to become foster parents. Why would you want that for the country?
Look how much debt we have, how much student loans we have, look at the homeless problem in nearly every major city. Solve that first. Because in reality, free education for others means higher costs for those who pay for it, and they already can't afford it.
GITMO
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But really, how much can a full time student make? Some kid just out of high school, most likely working 20 hours a week because they are in class full time. Maybe they make a few thousands a semester. Even in-state costs for public schools is tens of thousands a semester now.
Not to mention society and schools push the idea of college so much, students don't even realize they have options. My last school I was directly told not to talk about community college and push a 4-year school. This was south-central LA where 98% of our students qualified for free lunch. But because it looks better for the school to advertise X% of the students applied and got accepted into college, that was all we were "allowed" to promote. A college degree is almost expected in this culture.
That's why technical schools are so great and cheap, because they are struggling for students.
Its not "free" education. Its $5K+ to help with college expenses provided they spent the final two years of HS in NY State or within 5 years of a GED. And that $5K investment prevents all the other stuff you're worried about. A 5 year old gets brought to the US by their parents. 13 years later, they go to college and contribute more to the economy than native born. What's not to like about that investment?
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By my point still remains, when our own citizens are in tens of thousands in debt, why would be give 5k+ to others? Solve our own issues first.
If every child who wanted to go to college got a chance, and did so without being 40k in debt, then sure, I'd say start this program. But until then it doesnt make any sense.
Waiting for the “office” reply to that
I thought Team Trump Treason supporters were all about "personal responsibility?" Why did they take out tens of thousands of student loan debt? The gubmint made them do it? Its like $5,200 in financial aid. Did you even read the Buffalo Times article? They're kids of illegals who have graduated from public high school and have the grades to be accepted to college. Research shows they contribute more than they receive, more than native born. The program is open to native born as well, its a grant based financial aid program. Where are all the responsible native born parents and their savings for college?
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
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What does personal responsibility have to do with the cost of college? You can be the most responsible person on the planet, college is still going to be expensive for you.
The average household income is not too far off from the average cost of college. How are middle class families supposed to save up for that? I just don't get your argument, blame and outrage towards white Americans.
And I don't get your outrage toward the "other."
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I went back and re-read the article.
The $5200 you quoted is an existing program, not the new one.
The new one (The Dream Act) can pay for all of college. According to the article, "It will cover awards up to the tuition and fees charged by public colleges in New York"
And you were incorrect that this is open to everyone. This is strictly for immigrants.
The DREAM Act (acronym for Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors Act). Being illegal doesn't seem to be part of the requirement, but one of the goals is to help grant residency and is a requirement to apply. So clearly, this is money that is only intended for illegal immigrants.
So what I, and several others have said still stands. We already can;' pay for college ourselves. This doesn't make any sense.
Because we don't spend anywhere near 100% of our budget domestically...
That situation will end if legislation the Assembly and Senate passed Wednesday becomes law permitting undocumented immigrants to be eligible for government-funded general awards and TAP, the state’s main college financial aid program that awards grants of up to $5,165 annually.
The Dream Act will cost an estimated $27 million.
From the NY State Assembly Speaker's Press Release:
Assembly Speaker Carl Heastie and Assemblymember Carmen De La Rosa today announced that the Assembly will again pass the New York State DREAM Act to help advance the educational opportunities of children of immigrant New Yorkers.
"The Assembly Majority recognizes that immigrants are a vital thread in the social and economic fabric of our state," said Speaker Heastie. "It is fundamentally and economically misguided to deny students who were educated in our state's public school system the tools they need to reach their academic potential and fully contribute to our state's economy. When a student's education is cut short, every New Yorker suffers."
The New York State DREAM Act (A.9605, De La Rosa) would help ease the cost of higher education for children of immigrants in New York by eliminating potential financial obstacles to obtaining state financial aid for undocumented students seeking to attend an institution of higher education. Under the proposal, these students would be eligible for general awards, performance based awards, or New York State Tuition Assistance Program (TAP) funds if they:
"For most students, access to higher education is dependent on their ability to obtain financial aid," said Assemblymember Glick, chair of the Higher Education Committee. "New York needs the DREAM Act to ensure that we do not lose the intellectual and economic influence of an entire generation of people. It is unconscionable that we hand students high school diplomas and then close the door on their dreams."
https://assembly.state.ny.us/Press/files/20180205.php
Your characterization of the Dream Act is misleading as:
Public Colleges in New York - CollegeCalc
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