This is the problem, you are clearly ignoring what I am saying. Make the fucking language navajo then. I don't give a shit, I will learn it. I will still speak english, but when it comes to business and other things that are done cross culturally and on a government level we would all speak navajo to each other. Why do people consistently miss what I say? I said I DON'T CARE WHAT THE LANGUAGE IS. I don't want anyone to change the language they grew up with, they can speak it to other people who speak that language all day long, but when conducting business and other things it would be fantastic if we all spoke the same language. Like I said earlier, I think it protects rights. But whatever, you guys can keep ignoring that point and just go with the whole "forcing culture out of people" argument. Obviously my point is lost on you. Yours however is not lost on me, it is a terrible thing that happened to a lot of people, and I don't think anyone should have to get rid of their own culture. Clearly assimilate means something different to you than it does to me and I will stop using the word.
But in the end, I think if you knew me in real life you would not think i was an asshole at all. I really think you would be surprised about how much I care about everyone, I just think we do it in a very different way.
I, for one, am not ignoring your point. I just don't agree with it. And your clear lack of respect for others on this board doesn't help your cause.
as·sim·i·late (-sm-lt)
v. as·sim·i·lat·ed, as·sim·i·lat·ing, as·sim·i·lates
v.tr.
1. Physiology
a. To consume and incorporate (nutrients) into the body after digestion.
b. To transform (food) into living tissue by the process of anabolism; metabolize constructively.
2. To incorporate and absorb into the mind: assimilate knowledge.
3. To make similar; cause to resemble.
4. Linguistics To alter (a sound) by assimilation. 5. To absorb (immigrants or a culturally distinct group) into the prevailing culture.
I personally don't wish anyone to be absorbed into the prevailing culture. They should remain distinct.
And fine, if you honestly think that you wouldn't care about having to learn a new language for business purposes, fine, I'll take you at your word, but I think it's a very narrow-minded view to expect that the whole country would be willing, or even should be willing, to do such a thing.
I used to work in tech support. Tech support for lottery terminals at convenience stores. So many of my co-workers would get so angry at customers, not being able to understand their language/accent, too often slamming down the phone while muttering "learn fucking english". These aren't what I would call racist people, but I still was disgusted at the sentiment. I actually had to learn their accents and such so I could serve them. I accepted that, and I rolled with it. Never once did I expect them to take a class to learn English just so they could call the support line I worked at and make my job easier. What a ludicrous idea.
show me my lack of respect? quote it for me. I was rude to you because of your behavior, no one else. And you are right, maybe the word assimilate wasn't the right choice, but I didn't mean get rid of all other cultures. so it is narrow-minded to be willing to learn a new language?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I love it, i point out how big an asshole you are being and you call me sparky.
keep it up sparky, and you might get a pm from one of the mods. I have not assumed the worst about you. I simply stated an opinion based on your previous posts. You are make much worse assumptions about me, given the childish name-calling you keep doing.
childish name calling? you are being a prejudiced asshole. You assumed that I wanted the language to be english and you assumed I would not be willing to learn a new language. Both of which were completely untrue. You literally had a post bullshit on what I said. How is that not being prejudiced?
show me where I said anything about everyone having to learn english... show it to me.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
keep it up sparky, and you might get a pm from one of the mods. I have not assumed the worst about you. I simply stated an opinion based on your previous posts. You are make much worse assumptions about me, given the childish name-calling you keep doing.
*I love it, i point out how big an asshole you are being and you call me sparky*.childish name calling? you are being a prejudiced asshole. You assumed that I wanted the language to be english and you assumed I would not be willing to learn a new language. Both of which were completely untrue. You literally had a post bullshit on what I said. How is that not being prejudiced?
show me where I said anything about everyone having to learn english... show it to me.
I fixed that* for you, as I never said that. Now, it is not prejudiced because I am not prejudging anything. Do you even know what prejudiced means? Here:
An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts
It means making a snap judgment based on no facts. I based what I said your previous posts, and then later on said "fine, I'll take you at your word", after you insisted your stance, and you continue to call me names.
So you take offense at being called "sparky", yet you continually call me an asshole? Do you have any idea what irony is? Hypocrite? Look them up. I'm tired of teaching you.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
show me where I said anything about everyone having to learn english... show it to me.
it's irrelevant to the discussion which language you said everyone had to learn, it's only important that you think everyone should learn ONE language.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I don't know what American you're living in, but I can tell you this American's experience: I have tried and tried to learn Spanish for many years and I haven't been successful. And I have taken numerous classes. And I hang out with a LOT of Spanish-speaking people. It may be easy for you, but it's not that easy for everyone. I honestly don't think I'll be able to learn unless I move to a Spanish-speaking country. But guess what? When I get there, I'll still be learning Spanish. But I can't go anyway because I don't have the money. Do you honestly think taking out a loan is just that easy - especially for a new immigrant to this country?
yes I do, getting into a school and taking a class is pretty easy. Community colleges are everywhere. Also, you probably know more spanish than you think you do. I think no matter what language you speak you are always "learning" it. A second isn't that different than a first. But you are right, not everyone learns the same and at the same speed. But learning the language of the area you go to is important. If you are going to Japan to live you should learn japanese, if you are going to England you should learn whatever the hell it is they speak there and if you go to moscow learn some russian. It seems like a no brainer to me.
I just think you're failing to recognize that just because this (or anything else) is so easy for you, doesn't mean it's so easy for everyone else. Not everyone can learn a language as easily as you say you can. Not everyone can get a loan as easily as you say you can. Not everyone can get into school as easily as you say you can. And not everyone can find the time to take classes as easily as you say you can.
My primary point in most of this conversation (or most of the others I have on this board) is that not everyone has the same experience of life as you do, and I think acknowledging this is one of the most important things for us to do in life.
no, but I asked you directly who got to decide on the magical universal language, to which you ignored.
Probably the govenment should decide what the national language is. How they do it is a whole other thing. By procedures laid down in the constitution under the interstate commerce clause would be my guess. they seem to use that for everything.
I ignored it because I don't care who decides, or it could be because you are being a prejudiced asshole who certainly assumes the worst about me yet doesn't know me at all. I will let you decide that one.
I wasn't aware that the Constitution gave the government the right to dictate what language everyone must speak. Perhaps you can explain that one for me. Plus, of whom is the government comprised? The same power structure is still in place.
Here's the thing... even if English wasn't the chosen language - which we all know, at this point, is completely unfathomable - just the act of privileging one language over all others will necessarily exclude all the other languages. That's a violation of the civil rights of the people whose language wasn't chosen, it's oppressive of their culture, and it's just not good sense if we want everyone in this nation to feel respected.
And that gets to the asshole bit. I'll explain it, if you really want to know. You said that if you were to go to someone else's nation and demand that they speak your language, you would be viewed as an asshole, right? I am saying that this is exactly what has been happening for the last 500 years - AND IS STILL HAPPENING. Please put yourself, for a moment, in the shoes of a Native "American". This was their land and they spoke their own languages and had their own customs and cultures, right? And then the Europeans, our people, came to their "country" illegally, right?
Nope, there was no country. the united states did not exist when the first europeans came here. We "stole" land and created a coutry. It happened. what can we do about? seriously, what can we do?
That's why I put "country" in quotes. Fine - replace "country" with "nations" or "land". It doesn't change anything, so I'm not sure why you're arguing the point.
Seriously, I'm trying to tell you what we can do. Here goes again: WE CAN STOP CONTINUING THE OPPRESSION.
And we expected them to follow our customs. And we forced them to assimilate to our culture. And we expected them to learn our language - English (yes, I know it was also Spanish) - the language of their oppressors. So we can agree that your scenario about going to someone else's land and demanding that they speak your language and follow your customs is something of which we - our people - are guilty, right?
And you can't understand why she might not feel as light-hearted as you do about the idea of having one national language, and it being YOUR language? And you can't understand why she might view you as one in a very long line of asshole Americans trying to force their language onto other peoples?
This is the problem, you are clearly ignoring what I am saying. Make the fucking language navajo then. I don't give a shit, I will learn it. I will still speak english, but when it comes to business and other things that are done cross culturally and on a government level we would all speak navajo to each other. Why do people consistently miss what I say? I said I DON'T CARE WHAT THE LANGUAGE IS. I don't want anyone to change the language they grew up with, they can speak it to other people who speak that language all day long, but when conducting business and other things it would be fantastic if we all spoke the same language. Like I said earlier, I think it protects rights. But whatever, you guys can keep ignoring that point and just go with the whole "forcing culture out of people" argument. Obviously my point is lost on you. Yours however is not lost on me, it is a terrible thing that happened to a lot of people, and I don't think anyone should have to get rid of their own culture. Clearly assimilate means something different to you than it does to me and I will stop using the word.
But in the end, I think if you knew me in real life you would not think i was an asshole at all. I really think you would be surprised about how much I care about everyone, I just think we do it in a very different way.[/quote]
Dude - I know it was long but you conveniently left out the most important parts of my post. I am not missing or ignoring what you are saying at all. You are saying - though we all know there is no possible way in hell it could ever happen, so what's your point? - that the common language doesn't have to be English. But let's say we make it Navajo. In that case, substitute Hopi for Navajo throughout my post and read it again, because it will be the same problem all over again. It's the SYSTEM that would privilege one language over another that's the problem, regardless of which language it is that's privileged.
Let me try to think of another way to say this. Let's say our country is an oligarchy and one group has all the power. Bad system, right? Certainly not the American way. Now let's say that group is ousted and another group takes all the power. Does that make the whole set-up any better? Nope. Regardless of what group is exalted, it's still a fucked up system. It's the same with what you're saying, which is why the fact that you say you'd be willing for the chosen language to not be English is IRRELEVANT.
I just don't understand how my point is so lost on you. Actually, that's not really true. I totally understand. You are able to ignore the oppression of others because you are not part of the groups being oppressed. I actually heard a joke about this today. Maybe this will help you understand (though I'm not very good at telling jokes): So these two fish are swimming along in the ocean and this whale comes along and asks, "How's the water today?" And the fish reply, "What's water?" Get it?
I never said you were an asshole, by the way. You are the one who said, "If I were to do xyz I would be considered an asshole American." I am simply saying you ARE doing xyz so, by your logic, you can expect people to think of you as an asshole American.
And I'm sure you care about everyone just fine. But you are still supporting - and actively trying to strengthen - a system that is oppressive to others.
You keep saying it doesn't matter because people will still be able to speak their languages in private. But do you REALLY not see the problem with this?? :? What if someone said you could practice your own religion, but only in private? In all official ways, we will have a national religion and everyone will have to adhere to its practices when interacting with others? What if we said you could still eat your own food, but only in private? All places of business must serve the food of culture X and must not serve any other food? What if we said you could still have your own style, but only in private? Whenever you're dealing with the public, you must wear a uniform that some other group has chosen?
And I'll ask you this question again, because you didn't answer: Do you really believe that, after the land has been stolen from her people and her tribe is still relegated to a reservation, after the ability to continue their way of life has been stolen from her nation and they are still left with only the options of living in abject poverty or conforming to the culture of their oppressors, and after her culture and language have been beaten out of HER (not her ancestors) by the United States government, that that same government should have the right - or that it would be a good, respectful idea - to now tell her that her language is no good in public settings and she will be forced to speak another language that she did not agree to? Can you not understand how she might have some hard feelings about it? Can you not understand how this is a continuation of oppression? Or how we have a choice - right now, today, with this decision - to show long-overdue respect for her and her people OR to rub salt into their still-fresh wounds? You said you want to know what we can do. If you're serious about wanting to do something, here is your opportunity. What will you choose?
I, for one, am not ignoring your point. I just don't agree with it. And your clear lack of respect for others on this board doesn't help your cause.
as·sim·i·late (-sm-lt)
v. as·sim·i·lat·ed, as·sim·i·lat·ing, as·sim·i·lates
v.tr.
1. Physiology
a. To consume and incorporate (nutrients) into the body after digestion.
b. To transform (food) into living tissue by the process of anabolism; metabolize constructively.
2. To incorporate and absorb into the mind: assimilate knowledge.
3. To make similar; cause to resemble.
4. Linguistics To alter (a sound) by assimilation. 5. To absorb (immigrants or a culturally distinct group) into the prevailing culture.
I personally don't wish anyone to be absorbed into the prevailing culture. They should remain distinct.
And let's not forget this important part:
Word Origin & History
assimilate
1520s, from L. assimilatus, pp. of assimilare "to make like," from ad- "to" + simulare "make similar," from similis "like, resembling" (see similar). Originally trans. (with to); intrans. use first recorded 1837.
And fine, if you honestly think that you wouldn't care about having to learn a new language for business purposes, fine, I'll take you at your word, but I think it's a very narrow-minded view to expect that the whole country would be willing, or even should be willing, to do such a thing.
I used to work in tech support. Tech support for lottery terminals at convenience stores. So many of my co-workers would get so angry at customers, not being able to understand their language/accent, too often slamming down the phone while muttering "learn fucking english". These aren't what I would call racist people, but I still was disgusted at the sentiment. I actually had to learn their accents and such so I could serve them. I accepted that, and I rolled with it. Never once did I expect them to take a class to learn English just so they could call the support line I worked at and make my job easier. What a ludicrous idea.
That brings up an excellent point. Where does this assimilation end? The purpose of speaking the same language is so we can all understand each other, but not everyone who speaks the same language CAN understand each other. So will we all have to speak with the same accent too? And if so, whose accent? I doubt we'd pick Tim James's accent. So should the oral part of driver's exams not be given to people who don't speak with a midwestern accent either? Just how similar do we have to be??
so it is narrow-minded to be willing to learn a new language?
Since you feel that way about it, why don't we just all learn Spanish and then we wouldn't be having this "problem"?
Again, I can't stress enough that that's easy for you to say because YOU would not be the one having to learn the other language. (You can at least acknowledge that this is true, right?)
I love it, i point out how big an asshole you are being and you call me sparky.
keep it up sparky, and you might get a pm from one of the mods. I have not assumed the worst about you. I simply stated an opinion based on your previous posts. You are make much worse assumptions about me, given the childish name-calling you keep doing.
childish name calling? you are being a prejudiced asshole. You assumed that I wanted the language to be english and you assumed I would not be willing to learn a new language. Both of which were completely untrue. You literally had a post bullshit on what I said. How is that not being prejudiced?
show me where I said anything about everyone having to learn english... show it to me.
Dude... we are discussing a video that says, "We speak English. If you want to live here, learn it. We're only giving that test in English." You are arguing against the people who are arguing against that video. And we are living in a country that we all know with 100% certainty would choose English as the language if we only picked just one. And you are saying we should pick just one. You can sit here all day and say you'd be willing to choose any other language as the language we must all learn, but that's completely irrelevant and easy for you to say, because you KNOW that if this happened - this idea you're advocating for to choose only one language and make everyone learn it - the language would be English. IF YOU WON THIS ARGUMENT, WE WOULD ALL HAVE TO SPEAK ENGLISH. I really don't see why you're giving him shit for acknowledging reality.
Hey, mikepegg44... Remember last Thursday, in the "Boycott anything involving AZ" thread, when a bunch of us were all speaking out against the new AZ immigration law and you said if a law is upheld by the Supreme Court then people need to just shut up and follow the law, because at that point a bunch of the brightest legal minds in the country will have reviewed it and weighed it against the Constitution and given the go ahead?? (I'd quote the post, but I don't know how.) And also, didn't you say about this thread that this isn't a civil rights issue?
I thought you might be interested to know that Title VI of the U.S. Civil Rights Act of 1964 expressly prohibits discrimination in any program or activity that receives any (direct or indirect) federal funding/assistance. Specifically, it says:
No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.
And did you know that the Supreme Court, in the 1974 case of Lau v. Nichols, upheld that this includes discrimination based on language?
The Department of Justice lays out a four-part assessment for programs to determine the extent of their obligation to provide services to people of limited English proficiency. These considerations are: 1) Number of people in population served who would need services. 2) The frequency with which they would need services. 3) The importance of the program activities. 4) Costs and available resources. Based on the DOJ guidelines, each federal agency developed their own plan for addressing the needs of people with limited English proficiency.
For example, the Department of Health & Human Services developed their National Standards on Culturally and Linguistically Appropriate Services, which listed 14 standards. Of these, 4 are mandated for any organization which receives HHS funds, including Medicaid or Medicare funds. These are:
Standard 4
Health care organizations must offer and provide language assistance services, including bilingual staff and interpreter services, at no cost to each patient/consumer with limited English proficiency at all points of contact, in a timely manner during all hours of operation.
Standard 5
Health care organizations must provide to patients/consumers in their preferred language both verbal offers and written notices informing them of their right to receive language assistance services.
Standard 6
Health care organizations must assure the competence of language assistance provided to limited English proficient patients/consumers by interpreters and bilingual staff. Family and friends should not be used to provide interpretation services (except on request by the patient/consumer).
Standard 7
Health care organizations must make available easily understood patient-related materials and post signage in the languages of the commonly encountered groups and/or groups represented in the service area.
I thought you might want to know this stuff, since compliance with legal regulations is so important to you and all.
Also, I haven't yet read it but, in case you're interested, here is the Office of Management & Budget's report to Congress on estimated costs & benefits of providing services for people of limited English proficiency. Looks pretty interesting.
I, for one, am not ignoring your point. I just don't agree with it. And your clear lack of respect for others on this board doesn't help your cause.
as·sim·i·late (-sm-lt)
v. as·sim·i·lat·ed, as·sim·i·lat·ing, as·sim·i·lates
v.tr.
1. Physiology
a. To consume and incorporate (nutrients) into the body after digestion.
b. To transform (food) into living tissue by the process of anabolism; metabolize constructively.
2. To incorporate and absorb into the mind: assimilate knowledge.
3. To make similar; cause to resemble.
4. Linguistics To alter (a sound) by assimilation. 5. To absorb (immigrants or a culturally distinct group) into the prevailing culture.
I personally don't wish anyone to be absorbed into the prevailing culture. They should remain distinct.
And let's not forget this important part:
Word Origin & History
assimilate
1520s, from L. assimilatus, pp. of assimilare "to make like," from ad- "to" + simulare "make similar," from similis "like, resembling" (see similar). Originally trans. (with to); intrans. use first recorded 1837.
And fine, if you honestly think that you wouldn't care about having to learn a new language for business purposes, fine, I'll take you at your word, but I think it's a very narrow-minded view to expect that the whole country would be willing, or even should be willing, to do such a thing.
I used to work in tech support. Tech support for lottery terminals at convenience stores. So many of my co-workers would get so angry at customers, not being able to understand their language/accent, too often slamming down the phone while muttering "learn fucking english". These aren't what I would call racist people, but I still was disgusted at the sentiment. I actually had to learn their accents and such so I could serve them. I accepted that, and I rolled with it. Never once did I expect them to take a class to learn English just so they could call the support line I worked at and make my job easier. What a ludicrous idea.
That brings up an excellent point. Where does this assimilation end? The purpose of speaking the same language is so we can all understand each other, but not everyone who speaks the same language CAN understand each other. So will we all have to speak with the same accent too? And if so, whose accent? I doubt we'd pick Tim James's accent. So should the oral part of driver's exams not be given to people who don't speak with a midwestern accent either? Just how similar do we have to be??
Why is everyone responding to this thread in English? This technically isn’t even America, it’s the internet.
I believe the answer to that question is that in order to be successful in communicating your message to the target audience, then you must use the most universally accepted form of communication by said audience. In the PJ forum case, English is the accepted form. And in the U.S., English is the accepted form.
Now if there is some web application that translates language automatically, more power to you. But I don’t think they have the Star Wars auto-translators that you pop in your ear invented yet. So regardless of history, culture, the constitution and social injustices, the English language is required to take full advantage of the opportunities that are presented in the U.S.
I once heard that America was one vote away from declaring German as their official language way back when. Maybe someone with more knowledgeable on American history than me can tell me if I'm right about this?
Why is everyone responding to this thread in English? This technically isn’t even America, it’s the internet.
I believe the answer to that question is that in order to be successful in communicating your message to the target audience, then you must use the most universally accepted form of communication by said audience. In the PJ forum case, English is the accepted form. And in the U.S., English is the accepted form.
Now if there is some web application that translates language automatically, more power to you. But I don’t think they have the Star Wars auto-translators that you pop in your ear invented yet. So regardless of history, culture, the constitution and social injustices, the English language is required to take full advantage of the opportunities that are presented in the U.S.
At least that is my Spock-ish interpretation.
Saying you think it's in people's best interest to learn English is not the same as saying everyone should be required to learn English. I agree that it's in everyone's best interest that they learn English. I also think it's in everyone's best interest to learn Spanish. But I don't think either language should be forced on people any more than the other one.
Please notice, by the way, that people sometimes post on here in other languages. Should that be banned since most people are communicating in English?
I once heard that America was one vote away from declaring German as their official language way back when. Maybe someone with more knowledgeable on American history than me can tell me if I'm right about this?
I've heard that too - that we decided by one vote that English would be our official language instead of German. But I read recently that that's a myth; since we don't have an official language, we have never voted on what it should be.
Why is everyone responding to this thread in English? This technically isn’t even America, it’s the internet.
I believe the answer to that question is that in order to be successful in communicating your message to the target audience, then you must use the most universally accepted form of communication by said audience. In the PJ forum case, English is the accepted form. And in the U.S., English is the accepted form.
Now if there is some web application that translates language automatically, more power to you. But I don’t think they have the Star Wars auto-translators that you pop in your ear invented yet. So regardless of history, culture, the constitution and social injustices, the English language is required to take full advantage of the opportunities that are presented in the U.S.
At least that is my Spock-ish interpretation.
Saying you think it's in people's best interest to learn English is not the same as saying everyone should be required to learn English. I agree that it's in everyone's best interest that they learn English. I also think it's in everyone's best interest to learn Spanish. But I don't think either language should be forced on people any more than the other one.
Please notice, by the way, that people sometimes post on here in other languages. Should that be banned since most people are communicating in English?
I don't believe anyone should be forced (by law) to learn a language. My point is that the U.S. society kind of forces you to and laws are a moot point.
I once heard that America was one vote away from declaring German as their official language way back when. Maybe someone with more knowledgeable on American history than me can tell me if I'm right about this?
Maybe a myth, but the original language in the colonies was dutch after all. The dutch and french were first in the north, and the spanish first of all down south. The english didnt gain much hold until they won New Amsterdam from the dutch after some european war.
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Comments
show me my lack of respect? quote it for me. I was rude to you because of your behavior, no one else. And you are right, maybe the word assimilate wasn't the right choice, but I didn't mean get rid of all other cultures. so it is narrow-minded to be willing to learn a new language?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
childish name calling? you are being a prejudiced asshole. You assumed that I wanted the language to be english and you assumed I would not be willing to learn a new language. Both of which were completely untrue. You literally had a post bullshit on what I said. How is that not being prejudiced?
show me where I said anything about everyone having to learn english... show it to me.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I fixed that* for you, as I never said that. Now, it is not prejudiced because I am not prejudging anything. Do you even know what prejudiced means? Here:
An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts
It means making a snap judgment based on no facts. I based what I said your previous posts, and then later on said "fine, I'll take you at your word", after you insisted your stance, and you continue to call me names.
So you take offense at being called "sparky", yet you continually call me an asshole? Do you have any idea what irony is? Hypocrite? Look them up. I'm tired of teaching you.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
it's irrelevant to the discussion which language you said everyone had to learn, it's only important that you think everyone should learn ONE language.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I just think you're failing to recognize that just because this (or anything else) is so easy for you, doesn't mean it's so easy for everyone else. Not everyone can learn a language as easily as you say you can. Not everyone can get a loan as easily as you say you can. Not everyone can get into school as easily as you say you can. And not everyone can find the time to take classes as easily as you say you can.
My primary point in most of this conversation (or most of the others I have on this board) is that not everyone has the same experience of life as you do, and I think acknowledging this is one of the most important things for us to do in life.
I wasn't aware that the Constitution gave the government the right to dictate what language everyone must speak. Perhaps you can explain that one for me. Plus, of whom is the government comprised? The same power structure is still in place.
Here's the thing... even if English wasn't the chosen language - which we all know, at this point, is completely unfathomable - just the act of privileging one language over all others will necessarily exclude all the other languages. That's a violation of the civil rights of the people whose language wasn't chosen, it's oppressive of their culture, and it's just not good sense if we want everyone in this nation to feel respected.
That's why I put "country" in quotes. Fine - replace "country" with "nations" or "land". It doesn't change anything, so I'm not sure why you're arguing the point.
Seriously, I'm trying to tell you what we can do. Here goes again: WE CAN STOP CONTINUING THE OPPRESSION.
Europeans were Christians and they forced the Natives to follow Christianity. Again, what's your point? I'm sure you know this already.
This is the problem, you are clearly ignoring what I am saying. Make the fucking language navajo then. I don't give a shit, I will learn it. I will still speak english, but when it comes to business and other things that are done cross culturally and on a government level we would all speak navajo to each other. Why do people consistently miss what I say? I said I DON'T CARE WHAT THE LANGUAGE IS. I don't want anyone to change the language they grew up with, they can speak it to other people who speak that language all day long, but when conducting business and other things it would be fantastic if we all spoke the same language. Like I said earlier, I think it protects rights. But whatever, you guys can keep ignoring that point and just go with the whole "forcing culture out of people" argument. Obviously my point is lost on you. Yours however is not lost on me, it is a terrible thing that happened to a lot of people, and I don't think anyone should have to get rid of their own culture. Clearly assimilate means something different to you than it does to me and I will stop using the word.
But in the end, I think if you knew me in real life you would not think i was an asshole at all. I really think you would be surprised about how much I care about everyone, I just think we do it in a very different way.[/quote]
Dude - I know it was long but you conveniently left out the most important parts of my post. I am not missing or ignoring what you are saying at all. You are saying - though we all know there is no possible way in hell it could ever happen, so what's your point? - that the common language doesn't have to be English. But let's say we make it Navajo. In that case, substitute Hopi for Navajo throughout my post and read it again, because it will be the same problem all over again. It's the SYSTEM that would privilege one language over another that's the problem, regardless of which language it is that's privileged.
Let me try to think of another way to say this. Let's say our country is an oligarchy and one group has all the power. Bad system, right? Certainly not the American way. Now let's say that group is ousted and another group takes all the power. Does that make the whole set-up any better? Nope. Regardless of what group is exalted, it's still a fucked up system. It's the same with what you're saying, which is why the fact that you say you'd be willing for the chosen language to not be English is IRRELEVANT.
I just don't understand how my point is so lost on you. Actually, that's not really true. I totally understand. You are able to ignore the oppression of others because you are not part of the groups being oppressed. I actually heard a joke about this today. Maybe this will help you understand (though I'm not very good at telling jokes): So these two fish are swimming along in the ocean and this whale comes along and asks, "How's the water today?" And the fish reply, "What's water?" Get it?
I never said you were an asshole, by the way. You are the one who said, "If I were to do xyz I would be considered an asshole American." I am simply saying you ARE doing xyz so, by your logic, you can expect people to think of you as an asshole American.
And I'm sure you care about everyone just fine. But you are still supporting - and actively trying to strengthen - a system that is oppressive to others.
You keep saying it doesn't matter because people will still be able to speak their languages in private. But do you REALLY not see the problem with this?? :? What if someone said you could practice your own religion, but only in private? In all official ways, we will have a national religion and everyone will have to adhere to its practices when interacting with others? What if we said you could still eat your own food, but only in private? All places of business must serve the food of culture X and must not serve any other food? What if we said you could still have your own style, but only in private? Whenever you're dealing with the public, you must wear a uniform that some other group has chosen?
And I'll ask you this question again, because you didn't answer: Do you really believe that, after the land has been stolen from her people and her tribe is still relegated to a reservation, after the ability to continue their way of life has been stolen from her nation and they are still left with only the options of living in abject poverty or conforming to the culture of their oppressors, and after her culture and language have been beaten out of HER (not her ancestors) by the United States government, that that same government should have the right - or that it would be a good, respectful idea - to now tell her that her language is no good in public settings and she will be forced to speak another language that she did not agree to? Can you not understand how she might have some hard feelings about it? Can you not understand how this is a continuation of oppression? Or how we have a choice - right now, today, with this decision - to show long-overdue respect for her and her people OR to rub salt into their still-fresh wounds? You said you want to know what we can do. If you're serious about wanting to do something, here is your opportunity. What will you choose?
And let's not forget this important part:
Word Origin & History
assimilate
1520s, from L. assimilatus, pp. of assimilare "to make like," from ad- "to" + simulare "make similar," from similis "like, resembling" (see similar). Originally trans. (with to); intrans. use first recorded 1837.
That brings up an excellent point. Where does this assimilation end? The purpose of speaking the same language is so we can all understand each other, but not everyone who speaks the same language CAN understand each other. So will we all have to speak with the same accent too? And if so, whose accent? I doubt we'd pick Tim James's accent. So should the oral part of driver's exams not be given to people who don't speak with a midwestern accent either? Just how similar do we have to be??
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.
Since you feel that way about it, why don't we just all learn Spanish and then we wouldn't be having this "problem"?
Again, I can't stress enough that that's easy for you to say because YOU would not be the one having to learn the other language. (You can at least acknowledge that this is true, right?)
Dude... we are discussing a video that says, "We speak English. If you want to live here, learn it. We're only giving that test in English." You are arguing against the people who are arguing against that video. And we are living in a country that we all know with 100% certainty would choose English as the language if we only picked just one. And you are saying we should pick just one. You can sit here all day and say you'd be willing to choose any other language as the language we must all learn, but that's completely irrelevant and easy for you to say, because you KNOW that if this happened - this idea you're advocating for to choose only one language and make everyone learn it - the language would be English. IF YOU WON THIS ARGUMENT, WE WOULD ALL HAVE TO SPEAK ENGLISH. I really don't see why you're giving him shit for acknowledging reality.
I thought you might be interested to know that Title VI of the U.S. Civil Rights Act of 1964 expressly prohibits discrimination in any program or activity that receives any (direct or indirect) federal funding/assistance. Specifically, it says:
And did you know that the Supreme Court, in the 1974 case of Lau v. Nichols, upheld that this includes discrimination based on language?
Furthermore, the Supreme Court has upheld the validity of federal regulations that prohibit practices having a disparate impact on protected groups, even if the actions or practices are not intentionally discriminatory and regulations requiring funding recipients to ensure meaningful access to their programs and activities by persons with limited English proficiency.
This was reaffirmed by Executive Order 13166: Improving Access to Services for Persons with Limited English Proficiency, which states that each program receiving federal assistance must "examine the services it provides and develop and implement a system by which [persons with limited English proficiency] can meaningfully access" their services. It also said compliance standards would be based on the Department of Justice guidance document for compliance.
The Department of Justice lays out a four-part assessment for programs to determine the extent of their obligation to provide services to people of limited English proficiency. These considerations are: 1) Number of people in population served who would need services. 2) The frequency with which they would need services. 3) The importance of the program activities. 4) Costs and available resources. Based on the DOJ guidelines, each federal agency developed their own plan for addressing the needs of people with limited English proficiency.
For example, the Department of Health & Human Services developed their National Standards on Culturally and Linguistically Appropriate Services, which listed 14 standards. Of these, 4 are mandated for any organization which receives HHS funds, including Medicaid or Medicare funds. These are:
I thought you might want to know this stuff, since compliance with legal regulations is so important to you and all.
Also, I haven't yet read it but, in case you're interested, here is the Office of Management & Budget's report to Congress on estimated costs & benefits of providing services for people of limited English proficiency. Looks pretty interesting.
I say we go with the Maine accent....ayuh.
I believe the answer to that question is that in order to be successful in communicating your message to the target audience, then you must use the most universally accepted form of communication by said audience. In the PJ forum case, English is the accepted form. And in the U.S., English is the accepted form.
Now if there is some web application that translates language automatically, more power to you. But I don’t think they have the Star Wars auto-translators that you pop in your ear invented yet. So regardless of history, culture, the constitution and social injustices, the English language is required to take full advantage of the opportunities that are presented in the U.S.
At least that is my Spock-ish interpretation.
Saying you think it's in people's best interest to learn English is not the same as saying everyone should be required to learn English. I agree that it's in everyone's best interest that they learn English. I also think it's in everyone's best interest to learn Spanish. But I don't think either language should be forced on people any more than the other one.
Please notice, by the way, that people sometimes post on here in other languages. Should that be banned since most people are communicating in English?
I've heard that too - that we decided by one vote that English would be our official language instead of German. But I read recently that that's a myth; since we don't have an official language, we have never voted on what it should be.
Maybe a myth, but the original language in the colonies was dutch after all. The dutch and french were first in the north, and the spanish first of all down south. The english didnt gain much hold until they won New Amsterdam from the dutch after some european war.
(edit) here's a wiki-link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Netherland
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
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