So... Does this mean that in order to be "American" you have to abandon all parts of your culture? "YOUR AMERICAN NOW, SON. IN AMERICA WE SPEAK AMERICAN... SO STOP THAT SI' SENOR SHIT... PUT DOWN THE TACO. GRAB A PIECE OF APPLIE PIE, AND BE HAPPY YOU LIVE IN THE LAND OF THE FREE"
Yep - that sure sounds like freedom to me! :roll:
I love America, and I'm here legally, but I like tacos better than apple pie. What the hell am I supposed to do?
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
look back at my post, and then go on a rant. I said "some Native American dialect". Not "one Native American language". Living in the Canadian Prairies, and having some Native cousins, I know all too well the history of their peoples.
And who decides that language, good sir? If it was Spanish, or Aramaic, would you not be in an uproar that you were being forced against your rights to learn a language that was not part of your culture?
no I wouldn't. I would learn the god damn language so I could communicate with the community that surrounds me. I have said it so many times and yet I am an asshole for it, why can we not all have one common language here? Why is that such a bad position to take?
because it doesn't make any fucking sense, that's why. to me, assimilation is a swear word. I take you as your are, as I expect everyone else to take me as I am. I'll do my best to help us communicate with each other. Yes, I'd make an effort if I was the visitor, but the government does not have the right to tell me I have to.
and I call BULLSHIT on that. Living wherever you live all your life, and then a record number of, for example, spanish people move into your neck of the woods and then all of a sudden your area's official language changes to spanish, you'd be all for it? I'll say it again, BULLSHIT.
that might be the most prejudice thing I have read on these boards. But good thing a few internet posts can tell you who I am and what I would or would not agree to. Go fuck yourself
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
because it doesn't make any fucking sense, that's why. to me, assimilation is a swear word. I take you as your are, as I expect everyone else to take me as I am. I'll do my best to help us communicate with each other. Yes, I'd make an effort if I was the visitor, but the government does not have the right to tell me I have to.
and I call BULLSHIT on that. Living wherever you live all your life, and then a record number of, for example, spanish people move into your neck of the woods and then all of a sudden your area's official language changes to spanish, you'd be all for it? I'll say it again, BULLSHIT.
that might be the most prejudice thing I have read on these boards. But good thing a few internet posts can tell you who I am and what I would or would not agree to. Go fuck yourself
and read the fucking thing again. It never says anything about losing your culture. It says assimilate into the new. that doesn't mean get rid of anything, it means add to what you already have. And I really wouldn't care, I speak some spanish and I speak some french. Not fluent, but enough to get by, and I am in the process of learning Italian, jeez. Too many people on these boards prematurely attack someone because they may have what is seen as a right wing position. Fucking christ read the words as they are written, do not put your own spin onto it about what I must have meant and then accuse me of thinking that way.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
You should put pride in knowing other languages, not making others speak yours.
Peace
Dan
Agreed.
I DO take pride in knowing another languages. But if I go to another country where english is not their leading language then I expect to know THEIR language so that I may communicate with them. same ol same ol.....political correctness over common sense,uuuuggghhh
and oh ya, sorry for calling scb a he, i knew she was a she but forgot and called she a he.[/quote]
True, but then again, who's to say the non-English speakers in Alabama aren't taking English classes? If you've ever tried learning a foreign language then you'll know it isn't something that happens instantly. I didn't become a fluent German speaker after taking one class (on the contrary I studied it for two years and my German is still utter bollocks).
So... why should you discriminate against someone while they're in the process of learning? There's a reason the signs all LOOK different - so people who can't read them can still understand them. If someone has only lived in America for a week and has just enrolled in English classes to try and learn the language, is it right to deny that person basic rights until they become conversant? What if they need a car to get to their English classes?
It seems to me that this argument hinges on the assumption that people aren't bothering to learn. If you see a group of Mexicans standing around speaking Spanish, it doesn't mean they don't speak, or aren't learning to speak, English.
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
no I wouldn't. I would learn the god damn language so I could communicate with the community that surrounds me. I have said it so many times and yet I am an asshole for it, why can we not all have one common language here? Why is that such a bad position to take?
You make it sound like it's easy to learn a new language. Maybe these people don't have the money to splash out on expensive language courses? Perhaps they are doing the best they can, but they still aren't fluent in English and therefore still need official forms to be written in their native language.
Why is that such a bad position to take? Because it makes you look ignorant.
Yeah, we're doing ok. We're to our waists in well administered oil money after all.
But as for languages, I think it's more about courtesy and respect to have public information and forms in different languages. On tourist sites, we include signs in english for instance. And we have 3 official languages, even though the most common type of Norwegian makes about 80% of the population, the other type about 20%, and a miniscule percentage speak Sami.
The ambition for America should be to make everyone learn Spanish as well as English. Just think how many more you then can communicate with? More or less the rest of your hemisphere, really. Norway has 3 mandatory languages in school. Both types Norwegian, English and one electable (most often German and somewhat French). You should put pride in knowing other languages, not making others speak yours.
Peace
Dan
Its like Americans are afraid of learning anything outside their bubble.
I'm not sure if they do it on purpose or they really are that ignorant when it comes to different things, ESPECIALLY variances in the English language (not trying to generalize, sorry my American friends)
I'll give you an example.We just got back from Las Vegas... My boyfriend's last name has a Z in it (we say ZED, US says ZEE). Whenever he spelt his name, the person would either sit their confused when he got to the Z (what letter now?)... or they would correct him. "CORRECT" him!! :shock: And that is in a tourist hot spot!!
Haha - my first week in the States I went to a Subway and tried to order a sandwich. When I asked for toh-MAH-toh the woman behind the counter gave me a blank stare. I repeated the request, and got the same blank stare. It wasn't until a woman in line behind me thought to tell her I wanted toh-MAY-toh that she knew what I was talking about.
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
Though now that I read your comment again, you may be referring to the number of individual countries that speak English - and if I remember right, then English does have the distinction of being spoken in the greatest number of countries (either as a primary language, a secondary language, or a minority language in the trade and tourism industries).
And how many of those countries speak English because of British imperialism? I think, as a nation, we need to ask ourselves whether or not we really want to continue the oppression of our ancestors, which we try so hard to distance ourselves from.
That's a good question, and one I don't know the answer to - but if I had to lay a bet, I'd say the answer would be "a majority."
Do you know the story behind Britain's role in the formation of Pakistan? It's enough to make you want to slam your head against a desk very, very hard. It represents everything that's wrong with imperialism, and the world is still feeling the effects decades later.
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
no I wouldn't. I would learn the god damn language so I could communicate with the community that surrounds me. I have said it so many times and yet I am an asshole for it, why can we not all have one common language here? Why is that such a bad position to take?
You make it sound like it's easy to learn a new language. Maybe these people don't have the money to splash out on expensive language courses? Perhaps they are doing the best they can?
I think it is easy to learn another language. just take a class. cannot afford it, take out a loan. It is what most americans do every day. If a human being wants to learn something there is no stopping them.
wanting everyone to be able to communicate is ignorance?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
sbc - love your views
agree with everything you say
look - here's how i see it.
it's all about hate.
this country was founded on a system that only works when the rich stay rich and there is a very large part of the population poor or very poor.
the racism as we know it today was created when some of the bravest people who have ever lived tried to change this horrible system.
workers in early america who went on strike.
the government (being the wealthy law-makers) would send in strike-busters. immigrants or slaves to do the work. a diversion. it gave the strikers a face to hate, and it bred like weeds for generations.
money is the root of all evil. and we are a very ignorant species. we allow money to live. to own us and almost all our thoughts. our i-phones and our bmw's and our day-care and our vacations. just diversions to help us forget what and who we really hate. the what is this system where 95% of all money is owned by 1% of this nation. and the who is whoever wants to keep it this way.
the whole world will be different soon, i hope.
The whole world will be different soon... - EV
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
I think it is easy to learn another language. just take a class. cannot afford it, take out a loan. It is what most americans do every day. If a human being wants to learn something there is no stopping them.
wanting everyone to be able to communicate is ignorance?
No, denying the fact that there may be individual circumstances preventing people from learning English is ignorance. What if they can't get a loan because they're earning minimum wage and the bank doesn't want to lend to them? As someone else said, what if they need to drive to the English lessons, but the driving agency won't print driving exams in any other language than English?! It's akin to saying that every person who's out of work is just lazy. You're ignorant because you're implying that some of these people don't want to communicate, painting it as some black and white situation, which anyone with half a brain can see it is not.
How about Tim James pledges to make English lessons more affordable for non speakers, the end result would be the same, in that there would be less people relying on translation. But of course he wouldn't do that, because he is a fucking racist, his message is clear: 'if you don't speak English, we don't want you here'.
that might be the most prejudice thing I have read on these boards. But good thing a few internet posts can tell you who I am and what I would or would not agree to. Go fuck yourself
well, I have no idea what you read that made you come to that conclusion, but kudos to you for not only not making any sense, but showing who you really are in only one post!
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
because it doesn't make any fucking sense, that's why. to me, assimilation is a swear word. I take you as your are, as I expect everyone else to take me as I am. I'll do my best to help us communicate with each other. Yes, I'd make an effort if I was the visitor, but the government does not have the right to tell me I have to.
and I call BULLSHIT on that. Living wherever you live all your life, and then a record number of, for example, spanish people move into your neck of the woods and then all of a sudden your area's official language changes to spanish, you'd be all for it? I'll say it again, BULLSHIT.
that might be the most prejudice thing I have read on these boards. But good thing a few internet posts can tell you who I am and what I would or would not agree to. Go fuck yourself
and read the fucking thing again. It never says anything about losing your culture. It says assimilate into the new. that doesn't mean get rid of anything, it means add to what you already have. And I really wouldn't care, I speak some spanish and I speak some french. Not fluent, but enough to get by, and I am in the process of learning Italian, jeez. Too many people on these boards prematurely attack someone because they may have what is seen as a right wing position. Fucking christ read the words as they are written, do not put your own spin onto it about what I must have meant and then accuse me of thinking that way.
I put a spin on nothing. I was responding to your nonsense. Simple as that.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I think it is easy to learn another language. just take a class. cannot afford it, take out a loan. It is what most americans do every day. If a human being wants to learn something there is no stopping them.
wanting everyone to be able to communicate is ignorance?
No, denying the fact that there may be individual circumstances preventing people from learning English is ignorance. What if they can't get a loan because they're earning minimum wage and the bank doesn't want to lend to them? As someone else said, what if they need to drive to the English lessons, but the driving agency won't print driving exams in any other language than English?! It's akin to saying that every person who's out of work is just lazy. You're ignorant because you're implying that some of these people don't want to communicate, painting it as some black and white situation, which anyone with half a brain can see it is not.
How about Tim James pledges to make English lessons more affordable for non speakers, the end result would be the same, in that there would be less people relying on translation. But of course he wouldn't do that, because he is a fucking racist, his message is clear: 'if you don't speak English, we don't want you here'.
What a fantastic idea. But not one that someone so close minded would ever think of.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
The point is, while I agree you should try and learn the language of the country you have immigrated to, documents and things like driving tests might have little to do with the persons actual ability to speak the language.
Case in point:
My mother lived in Guatemala for a year (and majored in Spanish in university), she can speak Spanish fluently.
She also moved to Japan and learned Japanese (and married a Japanese man) and can speak Japanese fluently.
But if you asked her to fill out a government form in Japanese could she do it? No.
What's she supposed to do? Take 'Elaborate Form Entry 101"?
The point is, while I agree you should try and learn the language of the country you have immigrated to, documents and things like driving tests might have little to do with the persons actual ability to speak the language.
Case in point:
My mother lived in Guatemala for a year (and majored in Spanish in university), she can speak Spanish fluently.
She also moved to Japan and learned Japanese (and married a Japanese man) and can speak Japanese fluently.
But if you asked her to fill out a government form in Japanese could she do it? No.
What's she supposed to do? Take 'Elaborate Form Entry 101"?
Yeah, we're doing ok. We're to our waists in well administered oil money after all.
But as for languages, I think it's more about courtesy and respect to have public information and forms in different languages. On tourist sites, we include signs in english for instance. And we have 3 official languages, even though the most common type of Norwegian makes about 80% of the population, the other type about 20%, and a miniscule percentage speak Sami.
The ambition for America should be to make everyone learn Spanish as well as English. Just think how many more you then can communicate with? More or less the rest of your hemisphere, really. Norway has 3 mandatory languages in school. Both types Norwegian, English and one electable (most often German and somewhat French). You should put pride in knowing other languages, not making others speak yours.
I DO take pride in knowing another languages. But if I go to another country where english is not their leading language then I expect to know THEIR language so that I may communicate with them. same ol same ol.....political correctness over common sense,uuuuggghhh
and oh ya, sorry for calling scb a he, i knew she was a she but forgot and called she a he.
It's really not about political correctness at all. And that sounds like a Dr. Seuss bit about me.
Who would you be talking about? I didn't define anything. What I said was simple. Learn the local customs, as those are different most places, assimilate into the local culture and keep yours. You attacked without much basis there. RELAX. I put that in bold so you wouldn't miss it. Supporting one common language is not telling anyone what they can or cannot do, it is just saying why don't we have one language that gets everyone on the same page. Having one common language that binds the country together should not be a dividing factor. Sorry. Like I said earlier, I don't give a shit what language it is, lets pick one and go with it. That way, no matter where you go in the country you can still communicate with everyone while still keeping your own culture from where you came from. I don't get it. Why is that such an asshole position?
and again, I cannot move somewhere and demand what they do, so people who come here should not demand it either. But what we can do, is agree upon a common language and go with it. I still am racking my brain trying to find out how that makes me an asshole.
You said we can agree upon a common language and go with it. But here's the thing: We DON'T agree on a common language. We don't even agree agree that we should enact a new law creating an official language. So why can't people respect the fact that not everyone wants to be forced to learn their language and let it go? Why must they keep insisting that we should take away the rights of people to only learn the languages they want to learn? I really don't understand how you think being "forced" to protect your child with a car seat is a rights violation but being forced to make your child learn & speak another language is not. Would you be okay with it if we decided to have two languages and said you have to teach your children Spanish? Or would you see this as infringing upon your rights? You said people shouldn't come here and demand what we do, but they aren't. They are trying to live their lives with minimal interference and it's YOU who are demanding what they do.
And that gets to the asshole bit. I'll explain it, if you really want to know. You said that if you were to go to someone else's nation and demand that they speak your language, you would be viewed as an asshole, right? I am saying that this is exactly what has been happening for the last 500 years - AND IS STILL HAPPENING. Please put yourself, for a moment, in the shoes of a Native "American". This was their land and they spoke their own languages and had their own customs and cultures, right? And then the Europeans, our people, came to their "country" illegally, right? And we stole their land and chased them onto reservations. And we killed off huge numbers of their people. And we forced them to follow our religion. And we expected them to follow our customs. And we forced them to assimilate to our culture. And we expected them to learn our language - English (yes, I know it was also Spanish) - the language of their oppressors. So we can agree that your scenario about going to someone else's land and demanding that they speak your language and follow your customs is something of which we - our people - are guilty, right?
And now I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, "But that was hundreds of years ago! It wasn't ME who killed and oppressed these people, who stripped them of their land and culture and language! Let it go already!" But here's the part I think many people don't get: Though the physical genocide ended many years ago, the cultural genocide continued. "Indian Schools" existed well into the 20th century. The idea behind them was that if extermination was no longer an option, forced assimilation was the next best thing to "civilize" the Native populations. So United States government policy mandated that Indian kids be sent to these schools, whose primary purpose was cultural genocide. The goal was to "Kill the Indian, not the man." Some were on reservations, but many were boarding schools. Native kids were stripped from their homes and sent far enough away that they had no contact with their families. The schools were run by church organizations and kids were forbidden from practicing their religion and forced to practice Christianity. They were taught that their people were savages and their cultures were inferior, and that if they wanted to be "good" people they must be like the white men. But it didn't matter whether they wanted to be "good" people like the white men or not, because if they weren't they were beaten. They were forbidden from speaking their language and FORCED TO LEARN ENGLISH - and if they didn't, they were beaten. They were taught that all other languages were inferior and anyone who didn't speak English was inferior.
This did not happen hundreds of years ago to wild Native tribes at the hands of our distant ancestor settlers before the establishment of the great nation we should all love and trust - and honor by learning their language - today. This happened to people who are still alive on this earth, who experienced their language being beaten out of them, who have struggled to stand strong and keep their identities and their great nations alive, who have been told time and time again by OUR country and OUR people that OUR language and customs and culture are superior to their own, and assimilation is not optional.
And now you want to tell some little old Navajo lady that you want to take away her hospital forms in her language? That if she wants the government benefits that we owe her according to the treaties our nation signed with her nation, she has to learn English? That HER language is no good in this land? And you can't understand why she might not feel as light-hearted as you do about the idea of having one national language, and it being YOUR language? And you can't understand why she might view you as one in a very long line of asshole Americans trying to force their language onto other peoples?
no I wouldn't. I would learn the god damn language so I could communicate with the community that surrounds me. I have said it so many times and yet I am an asshole for it, why can we not all have one common language here? Why is that such a bad position to take?
You make it sound like it's easy to learn a new language. Maybe these people don't have the money to splash out on expensive language courses? Perhaps they are doing the best they can?
I think it is easy to learn another language. just take a class. cannot afford it, take out a loan. It is what most americans do every day. If a human being wants to learn something there is no stopping them.
wanting everyone to be able to communicate is ignorance?
Really? It's easy to learn another language?? Just take a class? Just take out a loan? Most Americans do it every day?? Really??? :?
I don't know what America you're living in, but I can tell you this American's experience: I have tried and tried to learn Spanish for many years and I haven't been successful. And I have taken numerous classes. And I hang out with a LOT of Spanish-speaking people. It may be easy for you, but it's not that easy for everyone. I honestly don't think I'll be able to learn unless I move to a Spanish-speaking country. But guess what? When I get there, I'll still be learning Spanish. But I can't go anyway because I don't have the money. Do you honestly think taking out a loan is just that easy - especially for a new immigrant to this country?
I like that forms are written in Spanish I read that side and try to learn more and test my knowledge
and to the person who commented on being paid in pesos....
you now that there are none USD currencies in our country right?.... for example in IL we have Illinois trade dollars, and if I wasn't so tired I would do research on some NPR stories that talk about how more and more communities are creating their own currency to promote local trade and commerce... I know apples and oranges but still interesting to think about..... it does not have to be "black and white"
and where does the "this is our country and do as we say" attitude come from?
Not sure of what you speak about communities in the US creating their own currency. Not saying you're wrong, just saying the money in my pocket says Federal Reserve Note and is accepted EVERYWHERE in the US. It is printed by the US to be spent in the US. Not sure how you're Illinois trade dollars would be accepted here in MA or any other of the 49 states.
I assume your read my whole post but....
they are called Illinois Trade dollars so I would not expect them to be any good in MA... thought that was obvious
I know what your money says and I have the same money in my pocket, I was trying to make a point in response to someone saying that we get paid in USD and should speak English, or something to that affect...
some municipalities have created a payment system (ie IL trade dollars) in an effort to promote local spending and business... that way you could not go spend your Federal Reserve Note made in MA on a restaurant in RI
my post was not meant to be a debate, I think my point got lost with you.... :?
wanting everyone to be able to communicate is ignorance?
no, wanting everyone to communicate in YOUR language is ignorance.
+1
have to agree!
did I ever say my language?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I don't know what American you're living in, but I can tell you this American's experience: I have tried and tried to learn Spanish for many years and I haven't been successful. And I have taken numerous classes. And I hang out with a LOT of Spanish-speaking people. It may be easy for you, but it's not that easy for everyone. I honestly don't think I'll be able to learn unless I move to a Spanish-speaking country. But guess what? When I get there, I'll still be learning Spanish. But I can't go anyway because I don't have the money. Do you honestly think taking out a loan is just that easy - especially for a new immigrant to this country?
yes I do, getting into a school and taking a class is pretty easy. Community colleges are everywhere. Also, you probably know more spanish than you think you do. I think no matter what language you speak you are always "learning" it. A second isn't that different than a first. But you are right, not everyone learns the same and at the same speed. But learning the language of the area you go to is important. If you are going to Japan to live you should learn japanese, if you are going to England you should learn whatever the hell it is they speak there and if you go to moscow learn some russian. It seems like a no brainer to me.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
no, but I asked you directly who got to decide on the magical universal language, to which you ignored.
Probably the govenment should decide what the national language is. How they do it is a whole other thing. By procedures laid down in the constitution under the interstate commerce clause would be my guess. they seem to use that for everything.
I ignored it because I don't care who decides, or it could be because you are being a prejudiced asshole who certainly assumes the worst about me yet doesn't know me at all. I will let you decide that one.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Who would you be talking about? I didn't define anything. What I said was simple. Learn the local customs, as those are different most places, assimilate into the local culture and keep yours. You attacked without much basis there. RELAX. I put that in bold so you wouldn't miss it. Supporting one common language is not telling anyone what they can or cannot do, it is just saying why don't we have one language that gets everyone on the same page. Having one common language that binds the country together should not be a dividing factor. Sorry. Like I said earlier, I don't give a shit what language it is, lets pick one and go with it. That way, no matter where you go in the country you can still communicate with everyone while still keeping your own culture from where you came from. I don't get it. Why is that such an asshole position?
and again, I cannot move somewhere and demand what they do, so people who come here should not demand it either. But what we can do, is agree upon a common language and go with it. I still am racking my brain trying to find out how that makes me an asshole.
You said we can agree upon a common language and go with it. But here's the thing: We DON'T agree on a common language. We don't even agree agree that we should enact a new law creating an official language. So why can't people respect the fact that not everyone wants to be forced to learn their language and let it go? Why must they keep insisting that we should take away the rights of people to only learn the languages they want to learn? I really don't understand how you think being "forced" to protect your child with a car seat is a rights violation but being forced to make your child learn & speak another language is not. Would you be okay with it if we decided to have two languages and said you have to teach your children Spanish? Or would you see this as infringing upon your rights? You said people shouldn't come here and demand what we do, but they aren't. They are trying to live their lives with minimal interference and it's YOU who are demanding what they do.
And yes, if they decided that two languages were the requirement for everyone I would learn them. I would much prefer one common language, but if that was the way it was then we would be moving in the right direction. To your point about rights, having people be able to speak communicate on a level playing field protects more rights than it harms. I think most schools require a second language now. And because we don't agree on it now it means it should never be? that is ridiculous. It wouldn't make speaking english, spanish, navajo, russian, somali, kareni, oromo, or any other language a crime. It would just help everyone communicate. Tolerance is a great thing, but I think it is misguided here.
And that gets to the asshole bit. I'll explain it, if you really want to know. You said that if you were to go to someone else's nation and demand that they speak your language, you would be viewed as an asshole, right? I am saying that this is exactly what has been happening for the last 500 years - AND IS STILL HAPPENING. Please put yourself, for a moment, in the shoes of a Native "American". This was their land and they spoke their own languages and had their own customs and cultures, right? And then the Europeans, our people, came to their "country" illegally, right?
Nope, there was no country. the united states did not exist when the first europeans came here. We "stole" land and created a coutry. It happened. what can we do about? seriously, what can we do?
And we expected them to follow our customs. And we forced them to assimilate to our culture. And we expected them to learn our language - English (yes, I know it was also Spanish) - the language of their oppressors. So we can agree that your scenario about going to someone else's land and demanding that they speak your language and follow your customs is something of which we - our people - are guilty, right?
And you can't understand why she might not feel as light-hearted as you do about the idea of having one national language, and it being YOUR language? And you can't understand why she might view you as one in a very long line of asshole Americans trying to force their language onto other peoples?
[/quote]
This is the problem, you are clearly ignoring what I am saying. Make the fucking language navajo then. I don't give a shit, I will learn it. I will still speak english, but when it comes to business and other things that are done cross culturally and on a government level we would all speak navajo to each other. Why do people consistently miss what I say? I said I DON'T CARE WHAT THE LANGUAGE IS. I don't want anyone to change the language they grew up with, they can speak it to other people who speak that language all day long, but when conducting business and other things it would be fantastic if we all spoke the same language. Like I said earlier, I think it protects rights. But whatever, you guys can keep ignoring that point and just go with the whole "forcing culture out of people" argument. Obviously my point is lost on you. Yours however is not lost on me, it is a terrible thing that happened to a lot of people, and I don't think anyone should have to get rid of their own culture. Clearly assimilate means something different to you than it does to me and I will stop using the word.
But in the end, I think if you knew me in real life you would not think i was an asshole at all. I really think you would be surprised about how much I care about everyone, I just think we do it in a very different way.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
no, but I asked you directly who got to decide on the magical universal language, to which you ignored.
Probably the govenment should decide what the national language is. How they do it is a whole other thing. By procedures laid down in the constitution under the interstate commerce clause would be my guess. they seem to use that for everything.
I ignored it because I don't care who decides, or it could be because you are being a prejudiced asshole who certainly assumes the worst about me yet doesn't know me at all. I will let you decide that one.
keep it up sparky, and you might get a pm from one of the mods. I have not assumed the worst about you. I simply stated an opinion based on your previous posts. You are make much worse assumptions about me, given the childish name-calling you keep doing.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
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St. Paul 2014
The next person to justify putting the Ten Commandments on the steps of a courthouse with "America is a Christian country founded on Christian principles" won't be the first.
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
This is the problem, you are clearly ignoring what I am saying. Make the fucking language navajo then. I don't give a shit, I will learn it. I will still speak english, but when it comes to business and other things that are done cross culturally and on a government level we would all speak navajo to each other. Why do people consistently miss what I say? I said I DON'T CARE WHAT THE LANGUAGE IS. I don't want anyone to change the language they grew up with, they can speak it to other people who speak that language all day long, but when conducting business and other things it would be fantastic if we all spoke the same language. Like I said earlier, I think it protects rights. But whatever, you guys can keep ignoring that point and just go with the whole "forcing culture out of people" argument. Obviously my point is lost on you. Yours however is not lost on me, it is a terrible thing that happened to a lot of people, and I don't think anyone should have to get rid of their own culture. Clearly assimilate means something different to you than it does to me and I will stop using the word.
But in the end, I think if you knew me in real life you would not think i was an asshole at all. I really think you would be surprised about how much I care about everyone, I just think we do it in a very different way.
I, for one, am not ignoring your point. I just don't agree with it. And your clear lack of respect for others on this board doesn't help your cause.
as·sim·i·late (-sm-lt)
v. as·sim·i·lat·ed, as·sim·i·lat·ing, as·sim·i·lates
v.tr.
1. Physiology
a. To consume and incorporate (nutrients) into the body after digestion.
b. To transform (food) into living tissue by the process of anabolism; metabolize constructively.
2. To incorporate and absorb into the mind: assimilate knowledge.
3. To make similar; cause to resemble.
4. Linguistics To alter (a sound) by assimilation. 5. To absorb (immigrants or a culturally distinct group) into the prevailing culture.
I personally don't wish anyone to be absorbed into the prevailing culture. They should remain distinct.
And fine, if you honestly think that you wouldn't care about having to learn a new language for business purposes, fine, I'll take you at your word, but I think it's a very narrow-minded view to expect that the whole country would be willing, or even should be willing, to do such a thing.
I used to work in tech support. Tech support for lottery terminals at convenience stores. So many of my co-workers would get so angry at customers, not being able to understand their language/accent, too often slamming down the phone while muttering "learn fucking english". These aren't what I would call racist people, but I still was disgusted at the sentiment. I actually had to learn their accents and such so I could serve them. I accepted that, and I rolled with it. Never once did I expect them to take a class to learn English just so they could call the support line I worked at and make my job easier. What a ludicrous idea.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
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St. Paul 2014
Comments
I love America, and I'm here legally, but I like tacos better than apple pie. What the hell am I supposed to do?
that might be the most prejudice thing I have read on these boards. But good thing a few internet posts can tell you who I am and what I would or would not agree to. Go fuck yourself
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
and read the fucking thing again. It never says anything about losing your culture. It says assimilate into the new. that doesn't mean get rid of anything, it means add to what you already have. And I really wouldn't care, I speak some spanish and I speak some french. Not fluent, but enough to get by, and I am in the process of learning Italian, jeez. Too many people on these boards prematurely attack someone because they may have what is seen as a right wing position. Fucking christ read the words as they are written, do not put your own spin onto it about what I must have meant and then accuse me of thinking that way.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I DO take pride in knowing another languages. But if I go to another country where english is not their leading language then I expect to know THEIR language so that I may communicate with them. same ol same ol.....political correctness over common sense,uuuuggghhh
and oh ya, sorry for calling scb a he, i knew she was a she but forgot and called she a he.[/quote]
True, but then again, who's to say the non-English speakers in Alabama aren't taking English classes? If you've ever tried learning a foreign language then you'll know it isn't something that happens instantly. I didn't become a fluent German speaker after taking one class (on the contrary I studied it for two years and my German is still utter bollocks).
So... why should you discriminate against someone while they're in the process of learning? There's a reason the signs all LOOK different - so people who can't read them can still understand them. If someone has only lived in America for a week and has just enrolled in English classes to try and learn the language, is it right to deny that person basic rights until they become conversant? What if they need a car to get to their English classes?
It seems to me that this argument hinges on the assumption that people aren't bothering to learn. If you see a group of Mexicans standing around speaking Spanish, it doesn't mean they don't speak, or aren't learning to speak, English.
You make it sound like it's easy to learn a new language. Maybe these people don't have the money to splash out on expensive language courses? Perhaps they are doing the best they can, but they still aren't fluent in English and therefore still need official forms to be written in their native language.
Why is that such a bad position to take? Because it makes you look ignorant.
Haha - my first week in the States I went to a Subway and tried to order a sandwich. When I asked for toh-MAH-toh the woman behind the counter gave me a blank stare. I repeated the request, and got the same blank stare. It wasn't until a woman in line behind me thought to tell her I wanted toh-MAY-toh that she knew what I was talking about.
That's a good question, and one I don't know the answer to - but if I had to lay a bet, I'd say the answer would be "a majority."
Do you know the story behind Britain's role in the formation of Pakistan? It's enough to make you want to slam your head against a desk very, very hard. It represents everything that's wrong with imperialism, and the world is still feeling the effects decades later.
I think it is easy to learn another language. just take a class. cannot afford it, take out a loan. It is what most americans do every day. If a human being wants to learn something there is no stopping them.
wanting everyone to be able to communicate is ignorance?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
agree with everything you say
look - here's how i see it.
it's all about hate.
this country was founded on a system that only works when the rich stay rich and there is a very large part of the population poor or very poor.
the racism as we know it today was created when some of the bravest people who have ever lived tried to change this horrible system.
workers in early america who went on strike.
the government (being the wealthy law-makers) would send in strike-busters. immigrants or slaves to do the work. a diversion. it gave the strikers a face to hate, and it bred like weeds for generations.
money is the root of all evil. and we are a very ignorant species. we allow money to live. to own us and almost all our thoughts. our i-phones and our bmw's and our day-care and our vacations. just diversions to help us forget what and who we really hate. the what is this system where 95% of all money is owned by 1% of this nation. and the who is whoever wants to keep it this way.
the whole world will be different soon, i hope.
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No, denying the fact that there may be individual circumstances preventing people from learning English is ignorance. What if they can't get a loan because they're earning minimum wage and the bank doesn't want to lend to them? As someone else said, what if they need to drive to the English lessons, but the driving agency won't print driving exams in any other language than English?! It's akin to saying that every person who's out of work is just lazy. You're ignorant because you're implying that some of these people don't want to communicate, painting it as some black and white situation, which anyone with half a brain can see it is not.
How about Tim James pledges to make English lessons more affordable for non speakers, the end result would be the same, in that there would be less people relying on translation. But of course he wouldn't do that, because he is a fucking racist, his message is clear: 'if you don't speak English, we don't want you here'.
well, I have no idea what you read that made you come to that conclusion, but kudos to you for not only not making any sense, but showing who you really are in only one post!
Fargo 2003
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I put a spin on nothing. I was responding to your nonsense. Simple as that.
Fargo 2003
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What a fantastic idea. But not one that someone so close minded would ever think of.
Fargo 2003
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Winnipeg 2011
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no, wanting everyone to communicate in YOUR language is ignorance.
Fargo 2003
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Winnipeg 2011
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+1
have to agree!
Case in point:
My mother lived in Guatemala for a year (and majored in Spanish in university), she can speak Spanish fluently.
She also moved to Japan and learned Japanese (and married a Japanese man) and can speak Japanese fluently.
But if you asked her to fill out a government form in Japanese could she do it? No.
What's she supposed to do? Take 'Elaborate Form Entry 101"?
xlnt point.
Godfather.
Well said, and I couldn't agree more!
It's really not about political correctness at all. And that sounds like a Dr. Seuss bit about me.
You said we can agree upon a common language and go with it. But here's the thing: We DON'T agree on a common language. We don't even agree agree that we should enact a new law creating an official language. So why can't people respect the fact that not everyone wants to be forced to learn their language and let it go? Why must they keep insisting that we should take away the rights of people to only learn the languages they want to learn? I really don't understand how you think being "forced" to protect your child with a car seat is a rights violation but being forced to make your child learn & speak another language is not. Would you be okay with it if we decided to have two languages and said you have to teach your children Spanish? Or would you see this as infringing upon your rights? You said people shouldn't come here and demand what we do, but they aren't. They are trying to live their lives with minimal interference and it's YOU who are demanding what they do.
And that gets to the asshole bit. I'll explain it, if you really want to know. You said that if you were to go to someone else's nation and demand that they speak your language, you would be viewed as an asshole, right? I am saying that this is exactly what has been happening for the last 500 years - AND IS STILL HAPPENING. Please put yourself, for a moment, in the shoes of a Native "American". This was their land and they spoke their own languages and had their own customs and cultures, right? And then the Europeans, our people, came to their "country" illegally, right? And we stole their land and chased them onto reservations. And we killed off huge numbers of their people. And we forced them to follow our religion. And we expected them to follow our customs. And we forced them to assimilate to our culture. And we expected them to learn our language - English (yes, I know it was also Spanish) - the language of their oppressors. So we can agree that your scenario about going to someone else's land and demanding that they speak your language and follow your customs is something of which we - our people - are guilty, right?
And now I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, "But that was hundreds of years ago! It wasn't ME who killed and oppressed these people, who stripped them of their land and culture and language! Let it go already!" But here's the part I think many people don't get: Though the physical genocide ended many years ago, the cultural genocide continued. "Indian Schools" existed well into the 20th century. The idea behind them was that if extermination was no longer an option, forced assimilation was the next best thing to "civilize" the Native populations. So United States government policy mandated that Indian kids be sent to these schools, whose primary purpose was cultural genocide. The goal was to "Kill the Indian, not the man." Some were on reservations, but many were boarding schools. Native kids were stripped from their homes and sent far enough away that they had no contact with their families. The schools were run by church organizations and kids were forbidden from practicing their religion and forced to practice Christianity. They were taught that their people were savages and their cultures were inferior, and that if they wanted to be "good" people they must be like the white men. But it didn't matter whether they wanted to be "good" people like the white men or not, because if they weren't they were beaten. They were forbidden from speaking their language and FORCED TO LEARN ENGLISH - and if they didn't, they were beaten. They were taught that all other languages were inferior and anyone who didn't speak English was inferior.
This did not happen hundreds of years ago to wild Native tribes at the hands of our distant ancestor settlers before the establishment of the great nation we should all love and trust - and honor by learning their language - today. This happened to people who are still alive on this earth, who experienced their language being beaten out of them, who have struggled to stand strong and keep their identities and their great nations alive, who have been told time and time again by OUR country and OUR people that OUR language and customs and culture are superior to their own, and assimilation is not optional.
And now you want to tell some little old Navajo lady that you want to take away her hospital forms in her language? That if she wants the government benefits that we owe her according to the treaties our nation signed with her nation, she has to learn English? That HER language is no good in this land? And you can't understand why she might not feel as light-hearted as you do about the idea of having one national language, and it being YOUR language? And you can't understand why she might view you as one in a very long line of asshole Americans trying to force their language onto other peoples?
Really? It's easy to learn another language?? Just take a class? Just take out a loan? Most Americans do it every day?? Really??? :?
I don't know what America you're living in, but I can tell you this American's experience: I have tried and tried to learn Spanish for many years and I haven't been successful. And I have taken numerous classes. And I hang out with a LOT of Spanish-speaking people. It may be easy for you, but it's not that easy for everyone. I honestly don't think I'll be able to learn unless I move to a Spanish-speaking country. But guess what? When I get there, I'll still be learning Spanish. But I can't go anyway because I don't have the money. Do you honestly think taking out a loan is just that easy - especially for a new immigrant to this country?
I assume your read my whole post but....
they are called Illinois Trade dollars so I would not expect them to be any good in MA... thought that was obvious
I know what your money says and I have the same money in my pocket, I was trying to make a point in response to someone saying that we get paid in USD and should speak English, or something to that affect...
some municipalities have created a payment system (ie IL trade dollars) in an effort to promote local spending and business... that way you could not go spend your Federal Reserve Note made in MA on a restaurant in RI
my post was not meant to be a debate, I think my point got lost with you.... :?
did I ever say my language?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
no, but I asked you directly who got to decide on the magical universal language, to which you ignored.
Fargo 2003
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yes I do, getting into a school and taking a class is pretty easy. Community colleges are everywhere. Also, you probably know more spanish than you think you do. I think no matter what language you speak you are always "learning" it. A second isn't that different than a first. But you are right, not everyone learns the same and at the same speed. But learning the language of the area you go to is important. If you are going to Japan to live you should learn japanese, if you are going to England you should learn whatever the hell it is they speak there
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Probably the govenment should decide what the national language is. How they do it is a whole other thing. By procedures laid down in the constitution under the interstate commerce clause would be my guess. they seem to use that for everything.
I ignored it because I don't care who decides, or it could be because you are being a prejudiced asshole who certainly assumes the worst about me yet doesn't know me at all. I will let you decide that one.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
And yes, if they decided that two languages were the requirement for everyone I would learn them. I would much prefer one common language, but if that was the way it was then we would be moving in the right direction. To your point about rights, having people be able to speak communicate on a level playing field protects more rights than it harms. I think most schools require a second language now. And because we don't agree on it now it means it should never be? that is ridiculous. It wouldn't make speaking english, spanish, navajo, russian, somali, kareni, oromo, or any other language a crime. It would just help everyone communicate. Tolerance is a great thing, but I think it is misguided here.
Nope, there was no country. the united states did not exist when the first europeans came here. We "stole" land and created a coutry. It happened. what can we do about? seriously, what can we do?
What is our religion?
Already conceded that it happened.
[/quote]
This is the problem, you are clearly ignoring what I am saying. Make the fucking language navajo then. I don't give a shit, I will learn it. I will still speak english, but when it comes to business and other things that are done cross culturally and on a government level we would all speak navajo to each other. Why do people consistently miss what I say? I said I DON'T CARE WHAT THE LANGUAGE IS. I don't want anyone to change the language they grew up with, they can speak it to other people who speak that language all day long, but when conducting business and other things it would be fantastic if we all spoke the same language. Like I said earlier, I think it protects rights. But whatever, you guys can keep ignoring that point and just go with the whole "forcing culture out of people" argument. Obviously my point is lost on you. Yours however is not lost on me, it is a terrible thing that happened to a lot of people, and I don't think anyone should have to get rid of their own culture. Clearly assimilate means something different to you than it does to me and I will stop using the word.
But in the end, I think if you knew me in real life you would not think i was an asshole at all. I really think you would be surprised about how much I care about everyone, I just think we do it in a very different way.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
keep it up sparky, and you might get a pm from one of the mods. I have not assumed the worst about you. I simply stated an opinion based on your previous posts. You are make much worse assumptions about me, given the childish name-calling you keep doing.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
The next person to justify putting the Ten Commandments on the steps of a courthouse with "America is a Christian country founded on Christian principles" won't be the first.
I, for one, am not ignoring your point. I just don't agree with it. And your clear lack of respect for others on this board doesn't help your cause.
as·sim·i·late (-sm-lt)
v. as·sim·i·lat·ed, as·sim·i·lat·ing, as·sim·i·lates
v.tr.
1. Physiology
a. To consume and incorporate (nutrients) into the body after digestion.
b. To transform (food) into living tissue by the process of anabolism; metabolize constructively.
2. To incorporate and absorb into the mind: assimilate knowledge.
3. To make similar; cause to resemble.
4. Linguistics To alter (a sound) by assimilation.
5. To absorb (immigrants or a culturally distinct group) into the prevailing culture.
I personally don't wish anyone to be absorbed into the prevailing culture. They should remain distinct.
And fine, if you honestly think that you wouldn't care about having to learn a new language for business purposes, fine, I'll take you at your word, but I think it's a very narrow-minded view to expect that the whole country would be willing, or even should be willing, to do such a thing.
I used to work in tech support. Tech support for lottery terminals at convenience stores. So many of my co-workers would get so angry at customers, not being able to understand their language/accent, too often slamming down the phone while muttering "learn fucking english". These aren't what I would call racist people, but I still was disgusted at the sentiment. I actually had to learn their accents and such so I could serve them. I accepted that, and I rolled with it. Never once did I expect them to take a class to learn English just so they could call the support line I worked at and make my job easier. What a ludicrous idea.
Fargo 2003
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St. Paul 2014