"$3.50 Ten Club handling Fee"?

124

Comments

  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Posts: 19,613
    DP13 wrote:
    What the hell is this for? Shouldn't our $20 a year cover that?

    "$3.50 Ten Club handling fee, $2.00 charity donation, and a $4.50 venue fee."

    They were so against service charges back in the day now and they have their own. And what do you get for it? 60 minutes of wasted refreshes, carts being emptied, error message and general disgust. Lets say they have 1000 tickets at $3.50 per that's $3500 per show for literally stuffing tickets in an envelope at Will Call. Thanks 10 Club!
    It costs $3.50 for 10c to process your credit card transaction.
    have a great day.
    slh





    #1 There is no fee to purchase other goods from your store with a credit card. It is just "acceptable" to expect a fee when purchasing tickets, which once upon a time the band fought very hard against.

    #2 Every credit card merchant provider that I have come accross does not allow merchants to charge fees for accepting credit cards. So most likely this is against your contract with your vendor.

    I really hope this isn't newsworthy.... sure seems like a chance for the PJ hating music media to pile on.

    Just another mistake made by PJ management.

    actually there is a shipping and handling fee....that covers the cc charge
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
  • Kanye East wrote:
    Are you really complaining about $3.50?

    Wow!


    Would you appreciate a $3.50 service charge every time you shop at Target after paying $20 to get in the door?


    If Pearl Jam was playing at Target...i would!
  • DP13DP13 Posts: 276

    actually there is a shipping and handling fee....that covers the cc charge

    Great, but that isn't my point (but technically you have no idea what handling "covers").

    It is that credit card companies do not allow there to a fee called a credit card surcharge. And Santos comes on here and calls it exactly that.

    That is all I was trying to point out.
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Posts: 19,613
    DP13 wrote:

    actually there is a shipping and handling fee....that covers the cc charge

    Great, but that isn't my point (but technically you have no idea what handling "covers").

    It is that credit card companies do not allow there to a fee called a credit card surcharge. And Santos comes on here and calls it exactly that.

    That is all I was trying to point out.

    it's called a handling fee....not a credit card surcharge....that it is meant to cover the credit card fee is moot

    fucking deal with it.....why should they have to pay all our fucking credit card fees for christsakes
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
  • Has anybody ever thought about how much $ the 10c brings in on renewals and newbies ? My # is in the 400's so does that mean that there are 400 ? something members ?

    If so wouldn't that be 400,xxx x $20 ?
  • 88Lukin88 wrote:
    Kanye East wrote:
    Are you really complaining about $3.50?

    Wow!


    Would you appreciate a $3.50 service charge every time you shop at Target after paying $20 to get in the door?


    If Pearl Jam was playing at Target...i would!


    Looks like they are as we speak:

    http://twitgoo.com/ks18k
  • bazzerbazzer Posts: 3,092
    prfctlefts wrote:
    Has anybody ever thought about how much $ the 10c brings in on renewals and newbies ? My # is in the 400's so does that mean that there are 400 ? something members ?

    If so wouldn't that be 400,xxx x $20 ?
    Not quite. It just means that 400,000 people have been allocated member numbers at one stage or the other. That includes numbers that are lapsed, new numbers allocated, online store only numbers etc... I don't think anyone knows how many active members there are.
  • ME18544ME18544 Posts: 25
    DP13 wrote:
    Sidnum wrote:
    Either pay or don't go, it's simple.

    Exactly. No sweat. Often I wish there wasn't a 10c so I could just pay a scalper for front row. I don't care what the tickets cost, I am going. Trust me it isn't about the 3.50.

    My problem is that fees on top of the ticket price is the exact same thing the band was fighting vigorously against years ago.


    Look back and read what you said...YEARS AGO. Like 15 years ago! Things change. I'm sure the band at that time couldn't have foreseen needing extra ticket charges.
  • dunkman wrote:
    DS114969 wrote:
    dunkman wrote:

    are the band millionaires? do they need to make $x every tour per individual, why not make $y... couldn't the band members in this tough financial time take a 10% hit on their 'profit' per tour? are they really that hard up?


    Maybe they could, but why should they ? That makes no sense. And they aren't the only ones in their organization.

    why should they? what don't you understand... in the current economic climate people are losing jobs, incomes, benefits, etc and rising costs of basic general living and you think its ok for the band to RAISE prices of their tickets knowing full well that people are struggling... fuck, even Ed sent a letter to people on here because his buddy Tom Tomorrow was a victim of this global credit crisis... and you don't think that perhaps the band, who probably dont NEED the money can't take a 15% hit on their profits during this time of people struggling?

    wow.

    Let us all remember that Pearl Jam is not a charity organization and they're not selling us food and drinkable water. They're selling ENTERTAINMENT, a supposed LUXURY. If you can't afford it that sucks. I've missed tours before because I didn't have the cash. It happens. Don't whine on about the recession and go buying $150+ concert tickets anyway.

    The band can raise prices whenever it wants, for any reason or no reason at all. They're a private company. I'm not saying I'd buy tickets at any price, but $75 a ticket is still better than most acts that can fill venues the size of the ones PJ are playing.

    As for the OP, what I'd like to know is if this "handling fee" is really new. I wouldn't be surprised if the disclosure laws are new, or one of the 10C lawyers advised them to disclose the fee this time due to new case law or something.

    As has been said, 10C has to get paid somehow, and the idea that the band should just eat it for their fans is absurd. They're a business selling a product at a price set by supply and demand. We all know they can do 2-3 or more shows in Boston and other places every tour and sell every seat.

    I know, they used to fight against "the man." Maybe they got tired of it, maybe they decided they'd rather be rich. Who knows? If you want to stop seeing them because they're not standing by their principles then stop seeing them. I happen to think that they still put on a kick-ass show, and if they've sold out then there's nothing I can do about it. I still think it's worth the price of admission. If you don't, then do the only thing you can do: don't go.

    I don't like that ticket prices have doubled (If I remember correctly Buffalo tickets in 2003 were $78 a PAIR), but what do you really want them to do? They can't fight ticketmaster, they can't play venues that don't use them (hell, even local bars here in Rochester sell through TM now), and they can't come play in your backyard.

    If you don't like it, don't go. If you're really as fed up as many of you say you are, don't renew. That's the hard truth.
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Posts: 19,613
    well said.....I paid a hell of a lot more than that to see Tom Petty and I have NO TOM PETTY CD's or anything related to him in my possession...he just puts on a good show

    this is a fucking bargain....quit fucking crying and STFU
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
  • t0mMyet0mMye Posts: 821
    Whats the 4.50 venue fee go towards?
    Ten Club # 433608, when I am 80 I will be in the front row!
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    merlin2600 wrote:
    dunkman wrote:

    why should they? what don't you understand... in the current economic climate people are losing jobs, incomes, benefits, etc and rising costs of basic general living and you think its ok for the band to RAISE prices of their tickets knowing full well that people are struggling... fuck, even Ed sent a letter to people on here because his buddy Tom Tomorrow was a victim of this global credit crisis... and you don't think that perhaps the band, who probably dont NEED the money can't take a 15% hit on their profits during this time of people struggling?

    wow.

    Let us all remember that Pearl Jam is not a charity organization and they're not selling us food and drinkable water. They're selling ENTERTAINMENT, a supposed LUXURY. If you can't afford it that sucks. I've missed tours before because I didn't have the cash. It happens. Don't whine on about the recession and go buying $150+ concert tickets anyway.

    The band can raise prices whenever it wants, for any reason or no reason at all. They're a private company. I'm not saying I'd buy tickets at any price, but $75 a ticket is still better than most acts that can fill venues the size of the ones PJ are playing.

    thats fine my friend, just stinks a bit when Ed then tells me to worry about Tom Tomorrow and his cartoons not selling because of the credit crunch.
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • BF25394BF25394 Posts: 4,363
    merlin2600 wrote:
    Let us all remember that Pearl Jam is not a charity organization and they're not selling us food and drinkable water. They're selling ENTERTAINMENT, a supposed LUXURY. If you can't afford it that sucks. I've missed tours before because I didn't have the cash. It happens. Don't whine on about the recession and go buying $150+ concert tickets anyway.

    The band can raise prices whenever it wants, for any reason or no reason at all. They're a private company. I'm not saying I'd buy tickets at any price, but $75 a ticket is still better than most acts that can fill venues the size of the ones PJ are playing.

    As for the OP, what I'd like to know is if this "handling fee" is really new. I wouldn't be surprised if the disclosure laws are new, or one of the 10C lawyers advised them to disclose the fee this time due to new case law or something.

    As has been said, 10C has to get paid somehow, and the idea that the band should just eat it for their fans is absurd. They're a business selling a product at a price set by supply and demand. We all know they can do 2-3 or more shows in Boston and other places every tour and sell every seat.

    I know, they used to fight against "the man." Maybe they got tired of it, maybe they decided they'd rather be rich. Who knows? If you want to stop seeing them because they're not standing by their principles then stop seeing them. I happen to think that they still put on a kick-ass show, and if they've sold out then there's nothing I can do about it. I still think it's worth the price of admission. If you don't, then do the only thing you can do: don't go.

    I don't like that ticket prices have doubled (If I remember correctly Buffalo tickets in 2003 were $78 a PAIR), but what do you really want them to do? They can't fight ticketmaster, they can't play venues that don't use them (hell, even local bars here in Rochester sell through TM now), and they can't come play in your backyard.

    If you don't like it, don't go. If you're really as fed up as many of you say you are, don't renew. That's the hard truth.

    All of the defenders of the ticket prices and fees are missing the point of the criticisms. No one is arguing that Pearl Jam does not have the ability to charge what it wishes for tickets, or to add service fees. However, when ticket prices double, and unexplained fees are added on top of that, it is perfectly legitimate to point out that these practices seem to contradict repeatedly and strongly expressed sentiments by members of the band. You can point out this tension, and still believe that the shows are "worth" the price of admission.
    At a certain point, though, the band runs the risk of pricing its audience out of the arena, and you'll Eddie championing the little guy against the oligarchs to an audience of nothing but oligarchs.

    Now, don't get me started on when Jeff said that the band's goal was to be like Neil Young and release a new record every year...
    I gather speed from you fucking with me.
  • BF25394BF25394 Posts: 4,363
    merlin2600 wrote:
    Let us all remember that Pearl Jam is not a charity organization and they're not selling us food and drinkable water.

    Let me also add that, you're right, Pearl Jam is not a charity, it is a business interest. As a business interest, it is good business to listen to and address the concerns of your customers. Businesses that don't do so lose their customers.
    I gather speed from you fucking with me.
  • t0mMye wrote:
    Whats the 4.50 venue fee go towards?

    I suspect it goes directly into the coffers of the venues, for their expenses (ushers, box office, janitorial, maintenance, floor crew, etc.) and I'm sure some direct profit as well.
  • BF25394 wrote:
    merlin2600 wrote:
    Let us all remember that Pearl Jam is not a charity organization and they're not selling us food and drinkable water.

    Let me also add that, you're right, Pearl Jam is not a charity, it is a business interest. As a business interest, it is good business to listen to and address the concerns of your customers. Businesses that don't do so lose their customers.

    Agreed. If they keep raising prices and adding fees they'll reach a point where I and others will not consider it worth the price and not go.
  • hopethatuchokehopethatuchoke Posts: 2,927
    merlin2600 wrote:
    BF25394 wrote:
    merlin2600 wrote:
    Let us all remember that Pearl Jam is not a charity organization and they're not selling us food and drinkable water.

    Let me also add that, you're right, Pearl Jam is not a charity, it is a business interest. As a business interest, it is good business to listen to and address the concerns of your customers. Businesses that don't do so lose their customers.

    Agreed. If they keep raising prices and adding fees they'll reach a point where I and others will not consider it worth the price and not go.


    I Agree. Sadly, I think it is starting to turn that way. I have hit at least one show every tour since 2000 and am skipping this tour. I usually do one or two MSG shows but not in the budget. I don't even know if I would have went to a Philly show.
  • dunkman wrote:
    merlin2600 wrote:
    dunkman wrote:

    why should they? what don't you understand... in the current economic climate people are losing jobs, incomes, benefits, etc and rising costs of basic general living and you think its ok for the band to RAISE prices of their tickets knowing full well that people are struggling... fuck, even Ed sent a letter to people on here because his buddy Tom Tomorrow was a victim of this global credit crisis... and you don't think that perhaps the band, who probably dont NEED the money can't take a 15% hit on their profits during this time of people struggling?

    wow.

    Let us all remember that Pearl Jam is not a charity organization and they're not selling us food and drinkable water. They're selling ENTERTAINMENT, a supposed LUXURY. If you can't afford it that sucks. I've missed tours before because I didn't have the cash. It happens. Don't whine on about the recession and go buying $150+ concert tickets anyway.

    The band can raise prices whenever it wants, for any reason or no reason at all. They're a private company. I'm not saying I'd buy tickets at any price, but $75 a ticket is still better than most acts that can fill venues the size of the ones PJ are playing.

    thats fine my friend, just stinks a bit when Ed then tells me to worry about Tom Tomorrow and his cartoons not selling because of the credit crunch.

    On Tom Tomorrow I totally agree with you. Boo friggin hoo. The guy's having a tough time, aren't we all?
  • Again, this is not a money issue. Yes $3.50 is not a big sum and yes we've probably paid this fee before rolled into something else. It was never worded Ten Club fee before. But, this fee is just another recent example of it not being 1993, or '94, or '95, or '96, etc. Pearl Jam, today, charges this. I'm not saying I agree with it but if you don't agree with the charge or where the band has ended up in 2010 then it's time to move on from them. Obviously their principles have changed a bit. With that said, see you in Hartford.
  • SoonForgotten2SoonForgotten2 Posts: 2,245
    What the hell is this for? Shouldn't our $20 a year cover that?

    "$3.50 Ten Club handling fee, $2.00 charity donation, and a $4.50 venue fee."

    They were so against service charges back in the day now and they have their own. And what do you get for it? 60 minutes of wasted refreshes, carts being emptied, error message and general disgust. Lets say they have 1000 tickets at $3.50 per that's $3500 per show for literally stuffing tickets in an envelope at Will Call. Thanks 10 Club!
    It costs $3.50 for 10c to process your credit card transaction.
    have a great day.
    slh

    Let's review here:

    According to the ticket page: Listed ticket price includes the following per ticket; $3.50 Ten Club handling fee

    So that's a $7 charge per credit card transaction? And seeing as how they release tickets at different times due to their servers being shit if you want to go to more than one of the highly sought after shows, you have to purchase them in separate transactions. That's quality customer service right there.
    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmgphotos/sets/72157600802942672/">My Pearl Jam Photos</a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmgphotos/4731512142/&quot; title="PJ Banner2 by Mister J Photography, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1135/4731512142_258f2d6ab4_b.jpg&quot; width="630" height="112" alt="PJ Banner2" /></a>
  • SPEEDY MCCREADYSPEEDY MCCREADY Posts: 25,457
    I cant even begin to tell everyone....

    How much I would LOVE to give my opinion, on this little $3.50 service charge....

    But I am going to keep my mouth shut.....For now, anyways....
    Take me piece by piece.....
    Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 29,249
    I cant even begin to tell everyone....

    How much I would LOVE to give my opinion, on this little $3.50 service charge....

    But I am going to keep my mouth shut.....For now, anyways....

    Just say it :lol::lol: i know you can express your self better than me 8-) oh by the way ..
    NY is overrated or like you say fuck NY :lol::lol:
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • SoonForgotten2SoonForgotten2 Posts: 2,245
    I found this website about credit card transaction fees:

    http://truecostofcredit.com/

    Generally the cost is about 2-3% of the transaction. So if one ticket cost $100 the fee for that would between $2 to $3. So how is there a $7 charge for transactions of $140 to £200?
    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmgphotos/sets/72157600802942672/">My Pearl Jam Photos</a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmgphotos/4731512142/&quot; title="PJ Banner2 by Mister J Photography, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1135/4731512142_258f2d6ab4_b.jpg&quot; width="630" height="112" alt="PJ Banner2" /></a>
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Posts: 19,613
    I found this website about credit card transaction fees:

    http://truecostofcredit.com/

    Generally the cost is about 2-3% of the transaction. So if one ticket cost $100 the fee for that would between $2 to $3. So how is there a $7 charge for transactions of $140 to £200?

    "Generally"

    what you want a fucking audit done now? jesus fucking christ you bunch of fucking babies
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
  • Kanye EastKanye East Posts: 782
    SolarWorld wrote:
    Yeah Pearl Jam should just go broke being one of the best live bands in the world. They don't deserve being paid for working at something for 20+ years. They totally don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. They don't donate personal items and signed shit for charities and people. None of that right? :roll:

    do you really think they are going broke? Phish can play the garden for 50 bucks a pop yet Pearl Jam is starving at 85 bucks a pop?

    Phish blows.
    DC-9/24/96
    Philly-8/28/98, 8/29/98, 9/1/00, 9/2/00, 4/28/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 10/3/05, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 4/28/16, 4/29/16
    Jones Beach-8/25/00
    PSU-5/3/03
    Irvine-6/2/03
    San Diego-6/5/03
    Hershey-7/12/03
    Reading-10/1/04
    The Gorge-9/1/05
    Vancouver-9/2/05
    AC-9/30/05
    E. Rutherford, NJ-6/1/06,6/3/06
    Bonnaroo-6/14/08
    VA Beach-6/17/08
    MSG-5/20/10,5/21/10
    Baltimore 10/27/13
  • SoonForgotten2SoonForgotten2 Posts: 2,245
    I found this website about credit card transaction fees:

    http://truecostofcredit.com/

    Generally the cost is about 2-3% of the transaction. So if one ticket cost $100 the fee for that would between $2 to $3. So how is there a $7 charge for transactions of $140 to £200?

    "Generally"

    what you want a fucking audit done now? jesus fucking christ you bunch of fucking babies
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    Wondering what $7 per pair of tickets is being charged for is being a baby? SLH telling us that $3.50 is the credit card transaction fee when the fee per pair is actually $7 seems deceptive at best. I think it's perfectly fair to question it. If you don't mind being lied to, that's cool, but don't complain about others who'd rather be informed.
    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmgphotos/sets/72157600802942672/">My Pearl Jam Photos</a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmgphotos/4731512142/&quot; title="PJ Banner2 by Mister J Photography, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1135/4731512142_258f2d6ab4_b.jpg&quot; width="630" height="112" alt="PJ Banner2" /></a>
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Posts: 19,613
    I found this website about credit card transaction fees:

    http://truecostofcredit.com/

    Generally the cost is about 2-3% of the transaction. So if one ticket cost $100 the fee for that would between $2 to $3. So how is there a $7 charge for transactions of $140 to £200?

    "Generally"

    what you want a fucking audit done now? jesus fucking christ you bunch of fucking babies
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    Wondering what $7 per pair of tickets is being charged for is being a baby? SLH telling us that $3.50 is the credit card transaction fee when the fee per pair is actually $7 seems deceptive at best. I think it's perfectly fair to question it. If you don't mind being lied to, that's cool, but don't complain about others who'd rather be informed.

    so don't buy it man.....buh bye
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646

    so don't buy it man.....buh bye


    with this kind of argumentative skill you should be a highly paid lawyer... or a playground monitor... either or.
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • teemanteeman Posts: 337
    I found this website about credit card transaction fees:

    http://truecostofcredit.com/

    Generally the cost is about 2-3% of the transaction. So if one ticket cost $100 the fee for that would between $2 to $3. So how is there a $7 charge for transactions of $140 to £200?

    "Generally"

    what you want a fucking audit done now? jesus fucking christ you bunch of fucking babies
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    Wondering what $7 per pair of tickets is being charged for is being a baby? SLH telling us that $3.50 is the credit card transaction fee when the fee per pair is actually $7 seems deceptive at best. I think it's perfectly fair to question it. If you don't mind being lied to, that's cool, but don't complain about others who'd rather be informed.

    It's fine to question, but these types of threads are 'generally' ridiculous because they make assumptions about costs, revenue, "profits"...just kinda cracks me up.

    "Deceptive at best"...read that over champ, makes no sense...at best.
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