The "hero" post I read said that his daughter - not anyone on this board - thought he was a hero (and it sounded like even she thought he was a hero in life, but not in his last action).
As for anyone who said he was "pushed" by the IRS, I'd like to point out that trying to understand why someone did something is NOT the same thing as trying to justify his actions.
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The thing that is tricky here is this...
The Columbine shooters were picked on by the jocks at the High School. Sure, jocks are not the IRS, but couldn't it be pointed out as similar in the fact that both were pushed to a breaking point by an group they could not confront through normal channels?
In fact... it can be argued that the Columbine shooters were pushed even harder since they did not make the choices to engage their adversaries... whereas Mr. Stack made the personal decisions to interpret tax laws which drew attention to him by the IRS.
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Like i said... I don't give the guy pass because he called the dogs on him... himself. He could have decided to abide by the tax laws... no matter how terrible he felt the laws were... and taken up his fight in legal channels. But, he didn't.
I don't think anyone's giving the guy a pass. But, in trying to understand what drove him to commit this action, I can acknowledge that having trouble with the IRS could (and obviously has) send someone over the edge - regardless of how he got into trouble with the IRS.
Edit to ask: Through what legal channels are we able to fight tax laws?
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You can challenge them in the courts... where you will probably lose.
No one said anything about winning... just fighting. You can possibly get some opinions through... but, yeah... you're gonna lose.
But, breaking the law is a sure fire way of losing... mainly because... it is illegal.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
You can challenge them in the courts... where you will probably lose.
No one said anything about winning... just fighting. You can possibly get some opinions through... but, yeah... you're gonna lose.
But, breaking the law is a sure fire way of losing... mainly because... it is illegal.
So there's no way to win. And they guy realized that. (And it seems like we all agree with him on this point.) And for some reason he thought the most effective way to fight this system was to fly his plane into an IRS building. (Which is the point on which we all disagree with him.)
I don't think anyone's giving the guy a pass. But, in trying to understand what drove him to commit this action, I can acknowledge that having trouble with the IRS could (and obviously has) send someone over the edge - regardless of how he got into trouble with the IRS.
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On this point...
It is the same thing as a criminal blaming the police and court systems for going after them because they decided to interpret traffic laws on their own. For example, if I believe I am so important... that I have to reach my destination, in spite of traffic... and decide to drive on the shoulder of the road or the emergency lane on the center divider of the freeway... because it is an emergency for me to be at my destination... and the cops pull me over and give me a wreckless driving/speeding ticket. Then, I focus all of my hatred towards the police... for pushing me.
In that example... I brought this all on myself. I am responsible for my plight, not because of the police.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
You can challenge them in the courts... where you will probably lose.
No one said anything about winning... just fighting. You can possibly get some opinions through... but, yeah... you're gonna lose.
But, breaking the law is a sure fire way of losing... mainly because... it is illegal.
So there's no way to win. And they guy realized that. (And it seems like we all agree with him on this point.) And for some reason he thought the most effective way to fight this system was to fly his plane into an IRS building. (Which is the point on which we all disagree with him.)
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There's a lot of thing you can fight, but never win. But, that is no excuse to break the law.
That is exactly what Mr. Stack did... he broke the law.
And as I stated... i have had one run in with the IRS. My tax return did not reflect the addition of $30,000.00 in a savings account that popped up on their radar. They investigated it... I provided the proper evidence and it was done in about 10 minutes time.
Again... The IRS did not pull Mr. stack out for no reason... Mr. Stack made himself an IRS adversary by trying to cheat the system... on several occasions (intentional or unintentional). All of that could have been avoided.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't think anyone's giving the guy a pass. But, in trying to understand what drove him to commit this action, I can acknowledge that having trouble with the IRS could (and obviously has) send someone over the edge - regardless of how he got into trouble with the IRS.
...
On this point...
It is the same thing as a criminal blaming the police and court systems for going after them because they decided to interpret traffic laws on their own. For example, if I believe I am so important... that I have to reach my destination, in spite of traffic... and decide to drive on the shoulder of the road or the emergency lane on the center divider of the freeway... because it is an emergency for me to be at my destination... and the cops pull me over and give me a wreckless driving/speeding ticket. Then, I focus all of my hatred towards the police... for pushing me.
In that example... I brought this all on myself. I am responsible for my plight, not because of the police.
Eh... I dont think it's the same. Unless there is no legal way for you to get to your destination on time AND the police harass you for years AND their harassment causes you to lose all your money.
You can challenge them in the courts... where you will probably lose.
No one said anything about winning... just fighting. You can possibly get some opinions through... but, yeah... you're gonna lose.
But, breaking the law is a sure fire way of losing... mainly because... it is illegal.
So there's no way to win. And they guy realized that. (And it seems like we all agree with him on this point.) And for some reason he thought the most effective way to fight this system was to fly his plane into an IRS building. (Which is the point on which we all disagree with him.)
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There's a lot of thing you can fight, but never win. But, that is no excuse to break the law.
That is exactly what Mr. Stack did... he broke the law.
No shit he broke the law. He flew his plane into an IRS building!
And as I stated... i have had one run in with the IRS. My tax return did not reflect the addition of $30,000.00 in a savings account that popped up on their radar. They investigated it... I provided the proper evidence and it was done in about 10 minutes time.
I dont think your experience is relevant here.
Again... The IRS did not pull Mr. stack out for no reason... Mr. Stack made himself an IRS adversary by trying to cheat the system... on several occasions (intentional or unintentional). All of that could have been avoided.
I think it's the unintentional bit that's most important here. Plus, as I said before, I don't care how he got in trouble with the IRS. My only points were that I can understand that spending years fighting the IRS must be extremely frustrating and that trying to understand a person'a perspective is not the same as tryigng to justify his actions. I'm not even sure what you're arguing about. :?
No shit he broke the law. He flew his plane into an IRS building!
I think it's the unintentional bit that's most important here. Plus, as I said before, I don't care how he got in trouble with the IRS. My only points were that I can understand that spending years fighting the IRS must be extremely frustrating and that trying to understand a person'a perspective is not the same as tryigng to justify his actions. I'm not even sure what you're arguing about. :?
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We're not arguing... we're just bouncing our point based opinions off of each other. I can see your points and understand them. I am just trying to point out why I feel this way.
When I said he broke the law... I meant in the 70s when he tried to apply the tax exempt status that the Catholic Church is afforded, to his personal income. Against the law... you cannot claim to be a church, just for the tax exempt status... penalty was $40K (most likely in fines and interest).
His second infraction was the early withdrawal of his IRA. That thing the banks always warn you about, 'penalties for early withdrawal' (typically 10% or so)... the penalties are in the form of taxes. $10K for not reading the prospectus.
His last grievence came when his new wife had $12K in unreported income. Again, against the law. if anything, his grievence should have been with his personal accountant (and/or his new wife), not the IRS. Penalty and interest on the $12K.
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I'm just saying that all of his IRS problems could have been easily avoided by him. He could have chosen to abide the tax laws... like law abiding Americans. But, he didn't. It is not the IRS's fault for catching him, breaking the tax laws.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
We're not arguing... we're just bouncing our point based opinions off of each other. I can see your points and understand them. I am just trying to point out why I feel this way.
When I said he broke the law... I meant in the 70s when he tried to apply the tax exempt status that the Catholic Church is afforded, to his personal income. Against the law... you cannot claim to be a church, just for the tax exempt status... penalty was $40K (most likely in fines and interest).
His second infraction was the early withdrawal of his IRA. That thing the banks always warn you about, 'penalties for early withdrawal' (typically 10% or so)... the penalties are in the form of taxes. $10K for not reading the prospectus.
His last grievence came when his new wife had $12K in unreported income. Again, against the law. if anything, his grievence should have been with his personal accountant (and/or his new wife), not the IRS. Penalty and interest on the $12K.
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I'm just saying that all of his IRS problems could have been easily avoided by him. He could have chosen to abide the tax laws... like law abiding Americans. But, he didn't. It is not the IRS's fault for catching him, breaking the tax laws.
I'm not saying it's not easy to avoid problems with the IRS; I'm just saying it's easy to make mistakes. Personally, I believe the guy probably really thought he was acting within the law in first case. In the second case, I think it's an easy mistake... one I could even see myself making. In the third case, it sounds like he didn't even know about the income so he couldn't have reported it. That's three times when he probably honestly tried to do what was required of him by the IRS and still ended up being penalized to an extent that he seemed to think was detrimental to his financial stability. Sounds like he felt like he just couldn't win... and I understand that. Do I understand the IRS's side of things too? Sure. Like you said, he didn't file correctly and it's their job to bust him for it. But if the guy's point was that our tax system is so confusing that it seems like some kind of trap for those of who can't afford fancy tax lawyers (while the big corporations and extremly wealthy people get away with cheating the system every day), I can't say I disagree.
I know of 3 people who got their income garnished by the IRS and in each case the IRS ended up wrong, but in the course of fighting them, all these people were only left 15% of their income to survive, which put them in horrible shape that they couldn't ever get out of.
That is just wrong. I think they should have been able to get an injunction to stop the granishment until it was firmly decide the IRS was correct, but you can't get that with the IRS, at least not at that time.
We all have heard about the people who jumped out of windows and suicides during the great depression, if the IRS devastates people lives like this it ruins lives and often people commit suicide.
I am not justifying that this guy did the right thing. I am merely empathizing, which does not mean sympathizing. Empathy means that one can put themselves in anothers frame of mind to try and understand their actions, feelings, behavior.
here's a poem I received today from my sister,thought it might be appropriate all thing's considered
Godfather.
I was shocked, confused, bewildered
As I entered Heaven's door,
Not by the beauty of it all,
Nor the lights or its decor.
But it was the folks in Heaven
Who made me sputter and gasp--
The thieves, the liars, the sinners,
The alcoholics and the trash..
There stood the kid from seventh grade
Who swiped my lunch money twice..
Next to him was my old neighbor
Who never said anything nice.
Herb, who I always thought
Was rotting away in hell,
Was sitting pretty on cloud nine,
Looking incredibly well.
I nudged Jesus, 'What's the deal?
I would love to hear Your take.
How'd all these sinners get up here?
God must've made a mistake.
'And why is everyone so quiet,
So somber - give me a clue.'
'Hush, child,' He said, 'they're all in shock.
No one thought they'd be seeing you.'
JUDGE NOT!!
Remember...Just going to church doesn't make you a
Christian any more than standing in your garage makes you a car.
Every saint has a PAST...
Every sinner has a FUTURE!
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Where's the line in the poem about also seeing Hitler in Heaven?
(and not seeing any of the Jews from Auschwitz there?)
I'm just sayin'...
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Regarding Stack... he decided to fuck with tax laws... on his own. His decision drew attention to himself.
Where the line in the poem about 'Personal responsibility'? Or doesn't that matter?
I'm just askin'...
it is what it is skippy, you keep pushing for something that seems to only matter to you.
you are starting to sound just like the pilot ...maybe a little anger managment would help,
just saying
I know of 3 people who got their income garnished by the IRS and in each case the IRS ended up wrong, but in the course of fighting them, all these people were only left 15% of their income to survive, which put them in horrible shape that they couldn't ever get out of.
That is just wrong. I think they should have been able to get an injunction to stop the granishment until it was firmly decide the IRS was correct, but you can't get that with the IRS, at least not at that time.
We all have heard about the people who jumped out of windows and suicides during the great depression, if the IRS devastates people lives like this it ruins lives and often people commit suicide.
I am not justifying that this guy did the right thing. I am merely empathizing, which does not mean sympathizing. Empathy means that one can put themselves in anothers frame of mind to try and understand their actions, feelings, behavior.
My pont exactly...the IRS and the Credit bureau can report what ever they want with no accountability....
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
The "hero" post I read said that his daughter - not anyone on this board - thought he was a hero (and it sounded like even she thought he was a hero in life, but not in his last action).
As for anyone who said he was "pushed" by the IRS, I'd like to point out that trying to understand why someone did something is NOT the same thing as trying to justify his actions.
yeah, the hero post was about his daughter...who was justifying his actions...as for the understanding vs. justifying, that's semantics...
I guess by one saying they understand ones actions can be seen as accepting those said actions therefore those said actions are justified...
either way, an innocent person lost their life because this "hero" lost his shit....that's the real issue here...
I guess by one saying they understand ones actions can be seen as accepting those said actions therefore those said actions are justified...
either way, an innocent person lost their life because this "hero" lost his shit....that's the real issue here...
I largely agree with inmytree, but I will point out that understanding and justifying are not always the same thing. One can intellectually and even emotionally understand someone but still not condone their behavior. I get why and how someone can feel so hopeless that ending their life seems like a good solution (just one example), but that doesn't mean I think that doing so is a good idea.
The "hero" post I read said that his daughter - not anyone on this board - thought he was a hero (and it sounded like even she thought he was a hero in life, but not in his last action).
As for anyone who said he was "pushed" by the IRS, I'd like to point out that trying to understand why someone did something is NOT the same thing as trying to justify his actions.
yeah, the hero post was about his daughter...who was justifying his actions...as for the understanding vs. justifying, that's semantics...
I guess by one saying they understand ones actions can be seen as accepting those said actions therefore those said actions are justified...
either way, an innocent person lost their life because this "hero" lost his shit....that's the real issue here...
I know of 3 people who got their income garnished by the IRS and in each case the IRS ended up wrong, but in the course of fighting them, all these people were only left 15% of their income to survive, which put them in horrible shape that they couldn't ever get out of.
That is just wrong. I think they should have been able to get an injunction to stop the granishment until it was firmly decide the IRS was correct, but you can't get that with the IRS, at least not at that time.
We all have heard about the people who jumped out of windows and suicides during the great depression, if the IRS devastates people lives like this it ruins lives and often people commit suicide.
I am not justifying that this guy did the right thing. I am merely empathizing, which does not mean sympathizing. Empathy means that one can put themselves in anothers frame of mind to try and understand their actions, feelings, behavior.
FWIW, a friend and bandmate of Stack's posted on Democratic Underground. Says he never saw him as overly-political and thinks this was more of a mental break, with the IRS situation happening to be the latest situation, but with the overall theme of Joe's state of mind and manifest being "it's not fair". Says he doesn't like people using him as a hero to promote their own agendas because he thinks this was more mental health break than activism.
it is what it is skippy, you keep pushing for something that seems to only matter to you.
you are starting to sound just like the pilot ...maybe a little anger managment would help,
just saying
Godfather.
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Angry? Just because I pointed out that a Christian Hitler gets a ticket to Heaven and the Jews he murdered didn't? How is that angry?
...
Please... don't mind me and continue your hero-worship of Mr. Stack.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
it is what it is skippy, you keep pushing for something that seems to only matter to you.
you are starting to sound just like the pilot ...maybe a little anger managment would help,
just saying
Godfather.
...
Angry? Just because I pointed out that a Christian Hitler gets a ticket to Heaven and the Jews he murdered didn't? How is that angry?
...
Please... don't mind me and continue your hero-worship of Mr. Stack.
Comments
You can challenge them in the courts... where you will probably lose.
No one said anything about winning... just fighting. You can possibly get some opinions through... but, yeah... you're gonna lose.
But, breaking the law is a sure fire way of losing... mainly because... it is illegal.
Hail, Hail!!!
So there's no way to win. And they guy realized that. (And it seems like we all agree with him on this point.) And for some reason he thought the most effective way to fight this system was to fly his plane into an IRS building. (Which is the point on which we all disagree with him.)
On this point...
It is the same thing as a criminal blaming the police and court systems for going after them because they decided to interpret traffic laws on their own. For example, if I believe I am so important... that I have to reach my destination, in spite of traffic... and decide to drive on the shoulder of the road or the emergency lane on the center divider of the freeway... because it is an emergency for me to be at my destination... and the cops pull me over and give me a wreckless driving/speeding ticket. Then, I focus all of my hatred towards the police... for pushing me.
In that example... I brought this all on myself. I am responsible for my plight, not because of the police.
Hail, Hail!!!
There's a lot of thing you can fight, but never win. But, that is no excuse to break the law.
That is exactly what Mr. Stack did... he broke the law.
And as I stated... i have had one run in with the IRS. My tax return did not reflect the addition of $30,000.00 in a savings account that popped up on their radar. They investigated it... I provided the proper evidence and it was done in about 10 minutes time.
Again... The IRS did not pull Mr. stack out for no reason... Mr. Stack made himself an IRS adversary by trying to cheat the system... on several occasions (intentional or unintentional). All of that could have been avoided.
Hail, Hail!!!
Eh... I dont think it's the same. Unless there is no legal way for you to get to your destination on time AND the police harass you for years AND their harassment causes you to lose all your money.
No shit he broke the law. He flew his plane into an IRS building!
I dont think your experience is relevant here.
I think it's the unintentional bit that's most important here. Plus, as I said before, I don't care how he got in trouble with the IRS. My only points were that I can understand that spending years fighting the IRS must be extremely frustrating and that trying to understand a person'a perspective is not the same as tryigng to justify his actions. I'm not even sure what you're arguing about. :?
We're not arguing... we're just bouncing our point based opinions off of each other. I can see your points and understand them. I am just trying to point out why I feel this way.
When I said he broke the law... I meant in the 70s when he tried to apply the tax exempt status that the Catholic Church is afforded, to his personal income. Against the law... you cannot claim to be a church, just for the tax exempt status... penalty was $40K (most likely in fines and interest).
His second infraction was the early withdrawal of his IRA. That thing the banks always warn you about, 'penalties for early withdrawal' (typically 10% or so)... the penalties are in the form of taxes. $10K for not reading the prospectus.
His last grievence came when his new wife had $12K in unreported income. Again, against the law. if anything, his grievence should have been with his personal accountant (and/or his new wife), not the IRS. Penalty and interest on the $12K.
...
I'm just saying that all of his IRS problems could have been easily avoided by him. He could have chosen to abide the tax laws... like law abiding Americans. But, he didn't. It is not the IRS's fault for catching him, breaking the tax laws.
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm not saying it's not easy to avoid problems with the IRS; I'm just saying it's easy to make mistakes. Personally, I believe the guy probably really thought he was acting within the law in first case. In the second case, I think it's an easy mistake... one I could even see myself making. In the third case, it sounds like he didn't even know about the income so he couldn't have reported it. That's three times when he probably honestly tried to do what was required of him by the IRS and still ended up being penalized to an extent that he seemed to think was detrimental to his financial stability. Sounds like he felt like he just couldn't win... and I understand that. Do I understand the IRS's side of things too? Sure. Like you said, he didn't file correctly and it's their job to bust him for it. But if the guy's point was that our tax system is so confusing that it seems like some kind of trap for those of who can't afford fancy tax lawyers (while the big corporations and extremly wealthy people get away with cheating the system every day), I can't say I disagree.
That is just wrong. I think they should have been able to get an injunction to stop the granishment until it was firmly decide the IRS was correct, but you can't get that with the IRS, at least not at that time.
We all have heard about the people who jumped out of windows and suicides during the great depression, if the IRS devastates people lives like this it ruins lives and often people commit suicide.
I am not justifying that this guy did the right thing. I am merely empathizing, which does not mean sympathizing. Empathy means that one can put themselves in anothers frame of mind to try and understand their actions, feelings, behavior.
it is what it is skippy, you keep pushing for something that seems to only matter to you.
you are starting to sound just like the pilot ...maybe a little anger managment would help,
just saying
Godfather.
yeah, the hero post was about his daughter...who was justifying his actions...as for the understanding vs. justifying, that's semantics...
I guess by one saying they understand ones actions can be seen as accepting those said actions therefore those said actions are justified...
either way, an innocent person lost their life because this "hero" lost his shit....that's the real issue here...
I largely agree with inmytree, but I will point out that understanding and justifying are not always the same thing. One can intellectually and even emotionally understand someone but still not condone their behavior. I get why and how someone can feel so hopeless that ending their life seems like a good solution (just one example), but that doesn't mean I think that doing so is a good idea.
What she said.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... id=7747831
Angry? Just because I pointed out that a Christian Hitler gets a ticket to Heaven and the Jews he murdered didn't? How is that angry?
...
Please... don't mind me and continue your hero-worship of Mr. Stack.
Hail, Hail!!!