Ed on religion

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  • Drew263Drew263 Birmingham, AL Posts: 602
    jwillmo wrote:
    To tell you the truth, I don't even know anymore what you mean by "believer"
    and "non-believer". You keep shifting from arguing against the existence of any god at all to Fundamentalist Christianity (all the shit about stem cells and evolution). I really can't keep up. I definitely believe in God, but I also believe in evolution, that gays should be left the fuck alone, etc. I've just been having a go at you because you seem to be more keen on the personal attacks than the other side. That's what I can't stand, and then when I defend the people you disagree with, you just assume I must believe exactly as they do.

    Full disclosure: I really don't care near as much about all this as I let on. It's actually just really fucking boring at work today.

    No shit, you know you've achieved "enlightment" when you can lump an entire group of people together like he's doing. :rolleyes:

    I'm with you on this....he's basically just being a douche.
  • EvilRabbitEvilRabbit Posts: 286
    AIDS of because of religion; no, it's because people can't keep their dicks in their pants.

    Catholic priests and missionaries preach to Africans that condoms are bad. Some priests have even told Africans that condoms are filled with tiny holes which cause AIDs. The U.S. government has also stopped funding many healthcare centers if they give out contraception rather than teach abstinence.

    You know how many people have died because of this? A fuckload.
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  • EvilRabbitEvilRabbit Posts: 286
    jwillmo wrote:
    To tell you the truth, I don't even know anymore what you mean by "believer"
    and "non-believer". You keep shifting from arguing against the existence of any god at all to Fundamentalist Christianity (all the shit about stem cells and evolution). I really can't keep up. I definitely believe in God, but I also believe in evolution, that gays should be left the fuck alone, etc. I've just been having a go at you because you seem to be more keen on the personal attacks than the other side. That's what I can't stand, and then when I defend the people you disagree with, you just assume I must believe exactly as they do.

    Full disclosure: I really don't care near as much about all this as I let on. It's actually just really fucking boring at work today.

    You are a believer then. And I admire you for being one of the cool ones with regards to some of the issues you mentioned.

    I'm not attacking individual people but their common beliefs. I'm sure most of the Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. on here are fantastic people but I don't respect their religious beliefs because they affect my world in a negative way.

    I'm sorry that upsets you. If that makes me a douche, then I disagree with your definition of a douche.

    It's important to stress that I hate the "beliefs" not the "believer." It's like "don't hate the playa, hate the game."
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  • jwillmojwillmo Posts: 470
    EvilRabbit wrote:
    Of course not. But I believe the world would be a better place if we put religion behind us. Sane people no longer believe in alchemy and astrology and I feel religion should be buried in the grave right next to them.

    Name one good thing brought about by religion? If you say charity or morality, for example, I will argue those things can exist without religion. Atheists can be good people. Any wrong-doing performed by an atheist is not done out of his/her atheism. You can't say the same about religion. Religion makes otherwise good people do atrocious things.
    I definitely disagree. All the bad shit that people generally attribute to religion I think can be attributed to human nature in general. People that do atrocious things aren't "otherwise good people", what you do represents who you are. Of course atheists can be good people. If it ever got to the point where they were the huge majority, and factions of atheists starting rounding up Christians and killing them, that would no more prove the existence of God than religious people doing horrible things disproves it.

    This reminds me of the South Park where Richard Dawkins and Mrs. Garrisson wipe out religion, and in the future people are fighting wars over which version of atheism is correct. Fucking brilliant.
  • muppetmuppet Posts: 980
    Eddie Vedder is preaching to the choir (not always a bad thing I suppose). I've said this a couple of times in other threads but I got blasted for it. I think the guy (and all these other outspoken musicians or actors or whoever) need to get out of their comfort zones and actually speak to some people who aren't lapping their every word or sucking their dick.

    Do I agree with Vedders politics? Mostly. I'm not the most politically savy person in the world, but I know enough to have an opinion, one that I've formed without Vedders help. But shouting out slogans and rants on Bush to a room that's pretty much full of Bush haters isn't really getting you anywhere. Almost reminds me of the "Viet-Fucking-NAM!" guy from Forrest Gump :p
  • Big ManBig Man Posts: 97
    EvilRabbit, have you read 'The God delusion'?
  • brainofmebrainofme Posts: 231
    EvilRabbit wrote:
    Of course not. But I believe the world would be a better place if we put religion behind us. Sane people no longer believe in alchemy and astrology and I feel religion should be buried in the grave right next to them.

    Name one good thing brought about by religion? If you say charity or morality, for example, I will argue those things can exist without religion. Atheists can be good people. Any wrong-doing performed by an atheist is not done out of his/her atheism. You can't say the same about religion. Religion makes otherwise good people do atrocious things.

    you are totally right about that, and i would never argue against the fact that atheists can be good people.


    "Name one good thing brought about by religion?"
    HOPE. i already posted that earlier: some people just need to have some believe they can hang on to when it comes to afterlife. if you have a totally shitty life, you at least can hope for a "better future" once you're dead. they want to believe that their struggle and pain wasn't totally worthless. they want to believe that they will see their loved ones in "heaven" etc.
    i know this sounds probably totally naive to you, and it may is naive, but some just need that hope to be able to make it through their life. i don't think that one can argue against that, even if it's not your way of thinking.
    Vienna, Austria 2006
    Munich, Germany 2007
  • FahkaFahka Posts: 3,187
    You guys might as well give it up.... Religion is a topic that is never ending...



    We are all gonna die... Doesn't really matter who we pray too...Nothing changes that fact. I think its a fear of death and a fear of a pointless existence that keeps everyone in their cliques er um i mean religions. I think people who practice specific religions are jumping the gun... why not just have a good time and see what happens when you croak? According to most religions thats when all the fun starts anyhow?



    I wish instead of religion , we all relied on the basic principles humans are born with. Be kind to people/ treat others as you wish to be treated. We are all in serious need of a wake up call. We do not matter half as much as we'd like to believe we do ;)
  • muppetmuppet Posts: 980
    EvilRabbit wrote:
    Name one good thing brought about by religion

    Scott Stapp and Creed.

    ba-dum-dum-chhhhh.
  • EvilRabbitEvilRabbit Posts: 286
    Big Man wrote:
    EvilRabbit, have you read 'The God delusion'?

    Yes. I've also read "The Dawkins Delusion" so I am well-versed in both sides of the argument.

    Have you?
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  • HermanBloomHermanBloom Posts: 1,764
    EvilRabbit wrote:
    Yes. I've also read "The Dawkins Delusion" so I am well-versed in both sides of the argument.

    Have you?
    Can I send some missionaries over?

    I kid, I kid
    SLC 11/2/95, Park City 6/21/98, Boise 11/3/00, Seattle 12/9/02, Vancouver 5/30/03, Gorge 9/1/05, Vancouver 9/2/05, Gorge 7/22/06, Gorge 7/23/06, Camden I 6/19/08, MSG I 6/24/08, MSG II 6/25/08, Hartford 6/27/08, Mansfield II 6/30/08; Eddie Albany 6/8/09, 6/9/09; Philly 10/30/09, 10/31/09; Boston 5/17/10
    I thought the world...Turns out the world thought me
  • EvilRabbitEvilRabbit Posts: 286
    brainofme wrote:
    you are totally right about that, and i would never argue against the fact that atheists can be good people.


    "Name one good thing brought about by religion?"
    HOPE. i already posted that earlier: some people just need to have some believe they can hang on to when it comes to afterlife. if you have a totally shitty life, you at least can hope for a "better future" once you're dead. they want to believe that their struggle and pain wasn't totally worthless. they want to believe that they will see their loved ones in "heaven" etc.
    i know this sounds probably totally naive to you, and it may is naive, but some just need that hope to be able to make it through their life. i don't think that one can argue against that, even if it's not your way of thinking.

    Listen, I understand what you're saying. But where you see hope, I see false hope. It's comparable to "My life sucks but I just know I'm going to win the lottery next week." If you're life is shitty, hoping something after death will make it all better is kinda sad. It's false comfort, a delusion if you will.

    So far though, that's the strongest point anyone's made in favor of religion.

    I have a friend who suffers from scoliosis and I don't discuss religion with him because i know he dreams of an afterlife where he has no physical disabilities. While I wish that he's right about an afterlife, I'd rather eradicate religion now and takes the shackles off scientific research so they can find a cure for him and make THIS life enjoyable and fulfilling.
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  • EvilRabbitEvilRabbit Posts: 286
    Can I send some missionaries over?

    I kid, I kid

    Sure, I'll convert them to atheists. Bring them over to the dark side. ;)

    I kid too.

    Have you guys noticed we can have this discussion without antagonism? A little levity goes a long way. People get too defensive and angry but discussing religion is a good thing. We shouldn't shy away from it.
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  • I wish instead of religion , we all relied on the basic principles humans are born with. Be kind to people/ treat others as you wish to be treated.


    gee.kind of sounds like what Jesus used to say.hhmmmmm.
  • jwillmojwillmo Posts: 470
    EvilRabbit wrote:
    You are a believer then. And I admire you for being one of the cool ones with regards to some of the issues you mentioned.

    I'm not attacking individual people but their common beliefs. I'm sure most of the Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. on here are fantastic people but I don't respect their religious beliefs because they affect my world in a negative way.

    I'm sorry that upsets you. If that makes me a douche, then I disagree with your definition of a douche.

    It's important to stress that I hate the "beliefs" not the "believer." It's like "don't hate the playa, hate the game."
    You mean like, "Hate the sin, not the sinner?" he he

    I wouldn't say a douche (not my words), but you can be kind of a dick. :)

    Calling me "one of the cool ones" was a tad condescending. However, I wouldn't say this discussion has been completely worthless. Although I stand by my assertion that harping on spelling was kind of a low blow.

    When it comes down to it, I just find this new breed of "Fundamentalist Atheism", i.e. Dawkins and Hitchens (why are these guys always smug Brits?) kind of scary, just as scary as fundamentalism on the other side. The only difference is the one brand of fundamentalism has been the majority for so long. It fosters the Us vs. Them mentality that's completely corroded America in the past, oh lets say, two Presidential terms or so. :)
  • FahkaFahka Posts: 3,187
    gee.kind of sounds like what Jesus used to say.hhmmmmm.



    Except with my way, there are no fears of a fiery pit of hell ,no false promises or exaggerated claims. No judgment unto others for praying to a different god, no bullshit. (and most importantly no early Sunday mornings!)
  • HermanBloomHermanBloom Posts: 1,764
    jwillmo wrote:
    You mean like, "Hate the sin, not the sinner?" he he

    I wouldn't say a douche (not my words), but you can be kind of a dick. :)

    Calling me "one of the cool ones" was a tad condescending. However, I wouldn't say this discussion has been completely worthless. Although I stand by my assertion that harping on spelling was kind of a low blow.

    When it comes down to it, I just find this new breed of "Fundamentalist Atheism", i.e. Dawkins and Hitchens (why are these guys always smug Brits?) kind of scary, just as scary as fundamentalism on the other side. The only difference is the one brand of fundamentalism has been the majority for so long. It fosters the Us vs. Them mentality that's completely corroded America in the past, oh lets say, two Presidential terms or so. :)
    agreed
    America is on the brink of civil war, in my opinion. If the economy doesn't completely fall apart first.
    SLC 11/2/95, Park City 6/21/98, Boise 11/3/00, Seattle 12/9/02, Vancouver 5/30/03, Gorge 9/1/05, Vancouver 9/2/05, Gorge 7/22/06, Gorge 7/23/06, Camden I 6/19/08, MSG I 6/24/08, MSG II 6/25/08, Hartford 6/27/08, Mansfield II 6/30/08; Eddie Albany 6/8/09, 6/9/09; Philly 10/30/09, 10/31/09; Boston 5/17/10
    I thought the world...Turns out the world thought me
  • Big ManBig Man Posts: 97
    EvilRabbit wrote:
    Yes. I've also read "The Dawkins Delusion" so I am well-versed in both sides of the argument.

    Have you?

    Yes, I read 'The God Delusion' and felt intelectually insulted. This guys talk is so cheap, it hurts. To be in need of spending more than a whole chapter to state that Einstein did not believe in God, shows alot of the limitations and desperation this man's mind has. It is simple minded, really, ( I guess thats whats needed to become a bestseller in America) There are way better books out there on atheism:

    Dennet, Daniel C.: Breaking the spell. 2006
    Harris, Sam: The end of faith. Religion, Terror and the future of Reason 2007
    " " : Letter to a chrisian nation. A challenge to faith . 2007


    And dont read this garbage:
    Hitchens, Christopher: God is not great. How Religion poisons everything. 2007
    This is hollywood style, polemic pure, really not worth the read.
  • EvilRabbitEvilRabbit Posts: 286
    jwillmo wrote:
    You mean like, "Hate the sin, not the sinner?" he he

    I wouldn't say a douche (not my words), but you can be kind of a dick. :)

    Calling me "one of the cool ones" was a tad condescending. However, I wouldn't say this discussion has been completely worthless. Although I stand by my assertion that harping on spelling was kind of a low blow.

    When it comes down to it, I just find this new breed of "Fundamentalist Atheism", i.e. Dawkins and Hitchens (why are these guys always smug Brits?) kind of scary, just as scary as fundamentalism on the other side. The only difference is the one brand of fundamentalism has been the majority for so long. It fosters the Us vs. Them mentality that's completely corroded America in the past, oh lets say, two Presidential terms or so. :)

    I must admit I have said a few things that probably make me seem like a dick. Perhaps it's because I'm British too. If you guys knew me in real life though, even those of you who seem to loathe my viewpoint, you might actually think I was pretty cool. Or a douche. One of the two.

    Sorry I sounded condescending but some of the things you said do make you seem to have a cool perspective which I can appreciate.

    Atheists can come across as angry or dicks simply because we've sat back and watched the downside of religion get out of control in recent years. Look, in some states 80% of Christians voted for Bush in 2004 purely because of faith. A lot of people would still be alive, or at least happier, if that hadn't happened. Forgive me, I don't want this to get political as that will spawn another 20 pages even more off-topic...
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  • brainofmebrainofme Posts: 231
    EvilRabbit wrote:
    Listen, I understand what you're saying. But where you see hope, I see false hope. It's comparable to "My life sucks but I just know I'm going to win the lottery next week." If you're life is shitty, hoping something after death will make it all better is kinda sad. It's false comfort, a delusion if you will.

    So far though, that's the strongest point anyone's made in favor of religion.

    I have a friend who suffers from scoliosis and I don't discuss religion with him because i know he dreams of an afterlife where he has no physical disabilities. While I wish that he's right about an afterlife, I'd rather eradicate religion now and takes the shackles off scientific research so they can find a cure for him and make THIS life enjoyable and fulfilling.


    EvilRabbit, i don't think we are that far away with our opinions, as one could think. i don't believe in religious institutions, therefore i'm not limited to any believe.

    EvilRabbit wrote:
    Have you guys noticed we can have this discussion without antagonism? A little levity goes a long way. People get too defensive and angry but discussing religion is a good thing. We shouldn't shy away from it.

    yeah, i have, and that's really refreshing. :-) that's what i meant earlier when i said that i don't like it's always a vs. b. people always start to become so angry about everything and get personal. there's no need to do so.
    Vienna, Austria 2006
    Munich, Germany 2007
  • EvilRabbitEvilRabbit Posts: 286
    Big Man wrote:
    Yes, I read it and felt intelectually insulted. This guys talk is so cheap, it hurts. To be in need of spending more than a whole chapter to state that Einstein did not believe in God, shows alot of the limitations and desperation this man's mind has. It is simple minded, really, ( I guess thats whats needed to become a bestseller in America) There are way better books out there on atheism:

    Dennet, Daniel C.: Breaking the spell. 2006
    Harris, Sam: The end of faith. Religion, Terror and the future of Reason 2007
    " " : Letter to a chrisian nation. A challenge to faith . 2007


    And dont read this garbage:
    Hitchens, Christopher: God is not great. How Religion poisons everything. 2007
    This is hollywood style, polemic pure, really not worth the read.

    I agree with you about Dawkins to a certain extent. But I disagree about Hitchens. While I don't agree with him on everything, esp. Iraq, I think he's incredibly intelligent and most of his arguments on faith are spot-on. Watch some of his debates on Youtube. He usually crushes his opponents.
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  • EvilRabbit wrote:
    I must admit I have said a few things that probably make me seem like a dick. Perhaps it's because I'm British too. If you guys knew me in real life though, even those of you who seem to loathe my viewpoint, you might actually think I was pretty cool. Or a douche. One of the two...
    Reminds me of a great Mitch Hedberg joke.

    "I used to be in a heavy metal band. People either loved us. Or they hated us...Or they thought we were OK."
  • EvilRabbitEvilRabbit Posts: 286
    agreed
    America is on the brink of civil war, in my opinion. If the economy doesn't completely fall apart first.

    That's the scariest thing I've read on here. That war won't get started by atheists though... "guaranteed."
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  • EvilRabbit wrote:
    Listen, I'd be happy for you to believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own home. I really would. But religion seeps into everything, worldwide. It's why AIDs is so rampant in Africa, why stem-cell research is handcuffed in this country, why the Twin Towers are gone, why homosexuals are victims of hate crime, why Bush got into office, etc. etc.

    My beliefs don't affect you. They are upsetting to you but they aren't affecting your world and how it is run. But if I'm truly free, let me conduct stem-cell research and let my gay friend do what he wants. Butt out (no pun intended).

    And not once have I called you an "asshole." That's you, the Christian, using the term to describe me and a few others on here.

    aids was man made and created in this country by your government,if you swallowed that story about some guy fucking a monkey you need to educate yourself.

    the twin towers are gone because of certain greedy soulless scumbags in the united states government who want to usurp your freedom and turn this planet into a one world government tyrannical system.

    it's not bible thumpers beating up homosexuals.homosexuals are victims of hate crimes because we are socially engineered to be violent and intolerable toward others. a perfect example would be,you bashing Christianity because you think you know better/more than us "believers".

    and to think you can stick all the religious people of the world into one group is just as ridiculous as thinking you can stick all PJ fans in one group because we all may share the label of being a "PJ fan",it's quite obvious we have a wide range of views that vary greatly on all issues.

    i didn't accuse you of calling me an asshole i accused you of acting like one.
  • KertokovichKertokovich Posts: 193
    Except with my way, there are no fears of a fiery pit of hell ,no false promises or exaggerated claims. No judgment unto others for praying to a different god, no bullshit. (and most importantly no early Sunday mornings!)

    Amen, I have always loved LeatherMandi (just a cool fucking name). Thanks again for the affirmation.

    Peace

    We should all get high together.....just kidding.
    Can't You Feel This World, With Your Heart and Not Your Brain
    Nov. 1993 OKC
    Sept. 1995 Austin
    July 1998 Kansas City
    Oct. 2000 Dallas
    June 2003 Dallas
  • jwillmojwillmo Posts: 470
    EvilRabbit wrote:
    I must admit I have said a few things that probably make me seem like a dick. Perhaps it's because I'm British too. If you guys knew me in real life though, even those of you who seem to loathe my viewpoint, you might actually think I was pretty cool. Or a douche. One of the two.

    Sorry I sounded condescending but some of the things you said do make you seem to have a cool perspective which I can appreciate.

    Atheists can come across as angry or dicks simply because we've sat back and watched the downside of religion get out of control in recent years. Look, in some states 80% of Christians voted for Bush in 2004 purely because of faith. A lot of people would still be alive, or at least happier, if that hadn't happened. Forgive me, I don't want this to get political as that will spawn another 20 pages even more off-topic...
    Being a full-blooded American, I think it was just the wording "you seem like one of the cool ones", kinda sounds like a redneck saying it about a black person. But I get and appreciate what you were saying. As for being British, it's more the accent than anything else. When I hear Dawkins or Hitchens talk I just want to punch them in the fucking face, so I guess I'm kind of a dick too. Especially Hitchens, I think he's just riding the wave for publicity, as I said before, he STILL defends the war in Iraq. Although I loved his expose on Mother Theresa (the Missionary Position was at least one of the great titles I've ever seen) he seems to not be very well informed on just about anything he talks about.
    Thanks for helping bring this back down to a civil discussion. But I really should get back to work now. Feel free to go off on any and all subjects, I won't try and police this thread anymore.
  • Except with my way, there are no fears of a fiery pit of hell ,no false promises or exaggerated claims. No judgment unto others for praying to a different god, no bullshit. (and most importantly no early Sunday mornings!)


    you just made it painfully obvious you know jack squat about the gospel of Jesus.

    seems to me you are the bandwagon type and not the let me find out for myself type. someone you are close to or admire thinks this way and you are parroting things to the point where you know not of what you speak.

    I'm definitely not hearing the utterings of an educated opinion.

    just biased nonsense.
  • KertokovichKertokovich Posts: 193
    you just made it painfully obvious you know jack squat about the gospel of Jesus.

    seems to me you are the bandwagon type and not the let me find out for myself type. someone you are close to or admire thinks this way and you are parroting things to the point where you know not of what you speak.

    I'm definitely not hearing the utterings of an educated opinion.

    just biased nonsense.

    Hey take it easy on LeatherMandi, don't be so judgemental, sounds like you have her life all figured out.

    I like your name though as well, I keep seeing and singing that I hope you're not lonely without me.
    Can't You Feel This World, With Your Heart and Not Your Brain
    Nov. 1993 OKC
    Sept. 1995 Austin
    July 1998 Kansas City
    Oct. 2000 Dallas
    June 2003 Dallas
  • FahkaFahka Posts: 3,187
    edited July 2012
    ....
    Post edited by Fahka on
  • velogatorvelogator Posts: 174
    Big Man wrote:
    God is eternal. God is above the concept of time. And he is above our reason. If we let our hybris go, we dont need everything to be explained. That is were our faith can comes in. Do you believe science can answer everything? It is clear to me that the wolrd is absurd and the deepest truths are paradox. Only in trusting God can I cope with the world and feel free. I hope you will join us someday.

    Richard Dawkins book 'The God delusion' is known, also by atheist intellectualls, as being a work of polemic. It is really weak. There are better atheist opinion than Dawkins.

    I used to be a Christian - doesn't pass the laugh test anymore. Don't get me wrong, there are lots of great people whe are Christian...and lots who are not. "Faith" is not a reason to believe/relevent argument, it's an argument for those who have nothing else to argue - "Just believe because some guys 6,000 years ago said it is so" - doesnt' work. I believe that you believe and if it makes you feel better, I won't try to change you, but don't try to change me and please stop using religion ("You" being the plural you) to make public policy.

    Me, I don't need "that" anymore to be truly happy. I like to live in the "Present Tense" :-). Oh, "I hope you'll join us" - line made famous by the man who said, "Imagine there's no religion, it's easy if you try". He's right.
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