Should Pearl Jam Play in Israel??

yosi

TriumphantAngel wrote:

yosi wrote:

A) Are you really surprised that Israelis supported an offensive against a terrorist organization that has been attacking them for two decades? People here keep saying that if we were living under the conditions the Palestinians live under that we'd probably think like the Palestinians do. Well, if you lived under the conditions that Israelis live under you'd probably think like the Israelis do. The poll shows support for the operation. It does not show support for a "massacre." If you polled Israelis and asked them whether they supported the IDF lining a thousand Palestinians up against a wall and shooting them, I guarantee you they would not support that.

the poll shows support for an operation that turned into a massacare.

even after seeing the consequences and the number of deaths, 90% of the people surveyed think it should continue.

I'm really very sorry that Israelis are not as concerned about the well being of the people they have been locked in violent conflict with for the past century. What do you want, that Israelis should care more about the Palestinians then they do about themselves? Israelis saw this operation as being entirely a response to Hamas' attacks on them. I personally think the IDF went too far, but I have a little more distance from the conflict. If I were to ask you why it is that Palestinians rejoice in the streets when a suicide bomber blows up a bus full of school kids, or a cafe full of innocent people, you'd say that you didn't support suicide bombings but that you wouldn't judge the Palestinians who did support it because you haven't lived through what they have lived through. How is this any different?

yosi

TriumphantAngel wrote:

yosi wrote:

badbrains wrote:

I've said before and I'll say it now, pearl jam NOT playing Israel is there way of protesting this issue...I believe it'll remain silent in Israel because we all know if Ed had the mic he would say something and that something would be career suicide....just read the book- they dare to speak out. See what happened to all who ever critisized Israel.....

Yes, yes of course you're right! Because the Jews control the media, and the banks, and the large corporations, and most of the governments! ARE YOU SERIOUS! I feel like it's 1900 in czarist Russia.

do you? gosh. my heart bleeds for you :roll:

imagine how the ordinary Palestinians feel.

What does thinly veiled classically anti-semitic tropes about the Jews controlling the levers of power have to do with the Palestinians?! Seriously, you are making this so confrontational that you're upset that I take offense to remarks that are borderline anti-semitic?

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

I'm really very sorry that Israelis are not as concerned about the well being of the people they have been locked in violent conflict with for the past century. What do you want, that Israelis should care more about the Palestinians then they do about themselves? Israelis saw this operation as being entirely a response to Hamas' attacks on them. I personally think the IDF went too far, but I have a little more distance from the conflict. If I were to ask you why it is that Palestinians rejoice in the streets when a suicide bomber blows up a bus full of school kids, or a cafe full of innocent people, you'd say that you didn't support suicide bombings but that you wouldn't judge the Palestinians who did support it because you haven't lived through what they have lived through. How is this any different?

there has not been a suicide bombing in years Yosi.

hundreds and hundreds of Palestinians have been killed in just the last year alone because of Israeli Terrorism.

yosi

Oh, silly me, I didn't realize that Israelis were supposed to forget the entire history of Arab hostility towards them, all the years of war and terror, just because suicide bombers have been replaced with rockets, and that only because with the fence and the roadblocks and the constant presence of the IDF it became apparent that suicide bombing was no longer showing the desired returns in dead Israelis. The fact that you could even expect Israelis to so easily forget or forgive is proof enough that you have absolutely no conception of what Israel has gone through. You would think that I was crazy if I said that Palestinians should just forgive Israel and forget about the occupation. Well what you are talking about is just as insane.

yosi

And before you tell me that the occupation is still going on, let me tell you that terrorism against Israel has not stopped, and just because not as many people are being killed now as before it doesn't mean that the threat that Israelis live under is any less. In fact, with Hamas and Hezbollah arming themselves with rockets and missiles that could hit Tel Aviv one could argue that the threat is even greater now then before.

badbrains

Palestinians celebrating in the streets huh? Well I see ur celebration and I raise you children writing disgusting messages on the bombs to be dropped on children.

yosi

badbrains wrote:

Palestinians celebrating in the streets huh? Well I see ur celebration and I raise you children writing disgusting messages on the bombs to be dropped on children.

Yeah that was a fucked up picture, but that represents a very small segment of Israeli society. Street celebrations on the occasion of terror attacks is widespread in the Arab world, not just among Palestinians. I would imagine that you would know this yourself from personal knowledge of the region, just as I know from personal experience that Israeli society by in large does not take any pleasure in the deaths of innocents.

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

And before you tell me that the occupation is still going on, let me tell you that terrorism against Israel has not stopped, and just because not as many people are being killed now as before it doesn't mean that the threat that Israelis live under is any less. In fact, with Hamas and Hezbollah arming themselves with rockets and missiles that could hit Tel Aviv one could argue that the threat is even greater now then before.

what's that saying again? you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

there is only one side occupying the other and i'll keep posting this until it sinks in...

Palestinian & Israeli Children Killed in Gaza 12/27/08 - 1/18/09





Palestinians & Israelis Killed in Gaza 12/27/08 - 1/18/09

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

badbrains wrote:

Palestinians celebrating in the streets huh? Well I see ur celebration and I raise you children writing disgusting messages on the bombs to be dropped on children.

Yeah that was a fucked up picture, but that represents a very small segment of Israeli society. Street celebrations on the occasion of terror attacks is widespread in the Arab world, not just among Palestinians. I would imagine that you would know this yourself from personal knowledge of the region, just as I know from personal experience that Israeli society by in large does not take any pleasure in the deaths of innocents.

unbelievable.

yosi

How many times have you visited Israel Triumphant? How on earth would you know that the majority of Israelis relish killing Palestinians? How many Israelis have you ever even spoken to, and how many of those told you that they love hearing about dead Arabs?

yosi

This is absurd. How can you have a problem with Israelis emotional reactions from living in fear of constant terror? Your sense of moral superiority borders on the totalitarian, since you don't even accept the validity of Israelis' emotional responses to being blown apart for nothing more than walking out the door in the morning.

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

How many times have you visited Israel Triumphant? How on earth would you know that the majority of Israelis relish killing Palestinians? How many Israelis have you ever even spoken to, and how many of those told you that they love hearing about dead Arabs?

haha nice try yosi. are you saying these Israeli's are lying?

extract from my previous post a page ago, just in case you missed it.

82 percent of the public believe that Israel has not "gone too far" with the military force it is exercising against Hamas.

90% of the interviewees think Israel should continue until it achieves all its objectives.

yosi

Yeah, they support a military operation that they see as crucial for their own defense. I don't know how you make the leap to "most Israelis are overjoyed when Palestinians die."

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

How many times have you visited Israel Triumphant? How on earth would you know that the majority of Israelis relish killing Palestinians? How many Israelis have you ever even spoken to, and how many of those told you that they love hearing about dead Arabs?

Norman Finkelstein: 'Beyond Chutzpah - On The Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History'
'When Israel attacked Lebanon in in June 1982 in order to "safeguard the occupation of the West bank" (Yehoshafat Harkabi's phrase), the popularity ratings of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon and Prime Minister Begin soared, while more than 80 percent of Israeli's held the invasion to be justified. When Israel's battering of Beirut in August 1982 reached new heights of savagery, more than half of Israeli's still supported the begin-Sharon government, while more than 80 percent still supported the invasion - which in the end, left up to twenty thousand Lebanese and Palestinians, almost all civilians, dead, and which the U.N General Assembly condemned by a vote of 143 to 2 (United States and Israel) for inflicting "severe damage on civilian Palestinians, including heavy losses of human lives, intolerable sufferings and massive material destruction." Only when the costs of the Lebanon aggression proved too onerous - initially, from the worldwide outcry against the Sabra and Shatila massacres and, later, from the escalating military casualties - did Israeli's turn against it.
When Israel's violent repression of the first Intifada reached new heights of brutality in 1989, more than half of all Israeli's supported the deployment of yet "stronger measures" to quell the largely nonviolent civil revolt (only one in four supported any lessening of the repression), while "an overwhelming 72 percent...saw no contradiction between the army's handling of the uprising and 'the nation's democratic values.'"
Operation Defensive shield (March - April 2002), although wreaking devastation on Palestinian society and culminating in the commission by Israeli forces of "serious violations" of humanitarian law and "war crimes" in Jenin and Nablus, was supported by fully 90 percent of Israeli's.

Beyond the emotional support that Israeli's have lent to crimes of state, it bears emphasis that Israel relies on a citizen army to implement policy: the collective responsibility of the Israeli people accordingly runs much deeper than "moral complicity." Finally, Israel couldn't commit such crimes without unconditional political and economic support from the United States, and it's the likes of Dershowitz who, through shameless apologetics and brazen distortions, crucially facilitate this unconditional support. What if Dershowitz's home were subject to the "benign form of collective accountability" he urges for Palestinians?'

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=49378

Palestinian Children Face Daily Settler Attacks Getting to School
By Mel Frykberg


AT TUWANI, Nov 23, 2009 (IPS) - Being able to travel to school in relative safety is something children all over the world take for granted. But, for Palestinian children living in the shadow of the ubiquitous and illegal Israeli settlements dotting the West Bank, simply walking to school can be a terrifying experience.

"It is really scary walking to school. We never know when the settlers will attack us and beat us," says Rima Ali, 10, from the village of Tuba in the southern West Bank, about two hours drive south of Jerusalem.

"Every day we have to watch out that the settlers are not in the valley ahead of us and if we see them we run away," Ali told IPS.

Ali still bears the scar from when a settler pushed her causing her to fall to the ground and cut herself below the eye.

Hundreds of Palestinian children in Tuba and the surrounding Palestinian villages face the same daily predicament as they try to reach school in the Bedouin village of At Tuwani.

Situated on a hilltop overlooking At Tuwani are the Israeli settlement of Ma’on and the extended settlement outpost of Havot Ma’on.

The only road which previously connected Palestinians to neighbouring villages and to the nearby Palestinian town of Yatta - a 10-minute drive away - has been appropriated for the exclusive use of settlers. Palestinians are banned from driving on it.

The villagers are now forced to take off-road dirt tracks, which circumvent the settlers-only bypass road and the settlements. If they walk the route it takes approximately an hour on foot - assuming they don’t have small children with them.

Settler attacks - including arson attacks on agricultural fields, chopping down olive trees, poisoning water wells, killing livestock and assaulting Palestinian villagers living near settlements - have become a way of life for Palestinians all over the West Bank as the Israeli authorities continue to turn a blind eye.

But the repeated attacks on schoolchildren forced a group of international Christian peace activists from Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT) to establish school escorts for the children in a bid to try and protect them.

Furthermore, the Israeli Knesset, or parliament, was forced to intervene several years ago after several foreign citizens escorting children were attacked by chain and baseball-wielding settlers.

Two CPT members were hospitalised after they suffered injuries including a punctured lung, a broken arm and a fractured skull.

The Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) was ordered to provide daily military escorts for children from various towns and villages in the southern West Bank.

However, the children and the peace activists have complained that the military escorts are often unreliable and sometimes a source of hostility towards the children themselves, as many of the soldiers are sympathetic to the settlers.

And while the number and severity of attacks have dropped they have not stopped. Last week a young Palestinian couple, with three children under the age of three, was trying to make its way home to Tuba after visiting Yatta.

They family was warned by two members of the CPT that a group of settlers had been spotted on the ridge above earlier in the day and that it would be safer for them to take the longest route home to avoid a confrontation.

"We decided to accompany the family in case there was any trouble. Despite taking the longer route a group of five settler men rushed towards us from the valley above and attacked the father who had a toddler in his arms," American CPT member Sarah MacDonald told IPS.

MacDonald and another CPT member, Laura Ciaghi from Italy, were videotaping events in case they needed to go to the police.

"I decided to try and engage the settlers to try and protect the family," Ciaghi told IPS. Ciaghi was thrown to the ground and repeatedly kicked in the ribs and back as the men stole both video cameras from the women.

"Because the settlers focused their attention on us the Palestinian family was able to get home safely and so we feel we achieved some kind of victory," added Ciaghi.

Ciaghi was badly bruised, required a stitch to her scalp and had contusions on her head.

The Israeli police and army were called to investigate but, with the exception of a couple of individuals, most of them appeared to be disinterested and no thorough investigation was carried out.

This does not surprise Israeli human rights organisation Yesh Din, which monitors human rights abuses against Palestinians in the West Bank and acts as an intermediary between Palestinian victims and the Israeli security forces.

In order to file complaints Palestinians need to go to police stations which are located in the illegal Israeli settlements. However, the catch-22 is that they are not permitted to enter the settlements and this is where Yesh Din steps in.

"The police often ‘lose the paperwork’ or are ‘unable to identify perpetrators’ of attacks against Palestinians," Yesh Din director Lior Yavne told IPS.

"And of the few cases opened, less than 10 percent result in any conviction," Yavne added. "This situation is completely different from when Palestinian attacks on Israeli settlers are investigated."

Meanwhile, despite the Israeli government calling for the demolition of Havot Ma’on over two years ago, on the grounds it was built illegally according to Israeli law, the outpost continues to expand and the settlers living there continue to attack Palestinians.

In the interim, Israel is carrying out a massive campaign of Palestinian home demolitions as settlements all over the West Bank expand at an unprecedented rate.

NoK

yosi wrote:

Oh, silly me, I didn't realize that Israelis were supposed to forget the entire history of Arab hostility towards them, all the years of war and terror, just because suicide bombers have been replaced with rockets

Sorry but contrary to the fake history that Zionists keep spewing, the only defensive war that Israel has fought throughout its history was that in 1973 and you ended up conceding land. In 1967, what you call a preemptive defensive strike has been proven to be fake. Egyptian armed forces weren't mobilizing at your gates there has been proof that they were scattered in regions next to Yemen at the time. Which is why the Arab forces lost so quickly. We don't have to go into 1948.

fuck

yosi wrote:

I don't know how you make the leap to "most Israelis are overjoyed when Palestinians die."

who are you quoting here? why is that sentence in quotes? no one is making that leap except you. no one is suggesting that Israelis get boners when Palestinians die. do you really just not know how to read correctly? how did you ever go to school? no wonder you're not a fan of Mearsheimer. you can barely read accurately. if you care to understand, we are not suggesting that Israelis are overjoyed when Palestinians die as you like to put it. The fact is that Israelis just plainly don't give a fuck when Palestinians die. And when I say Israelis, I obviously don't mean every single Israeli; however, a significant majority - over 80% - supported the invasion and subsequent massacre that occurred in Gaza last year, DESPITE the reports of all those dead civilians.

Now, you can spin this any way. But the facts are clear to anyone who simply knows how to read.

Israel should be boycotted, plain and simple. To play in Israel would be like playing in South Africa during the Apartheid regime in the 1980s. Next, everyone who is suggesting that the fact that they may be playing in China should make playing in Israel ok, that is absolutely horrendous logic. If you yourself don't agree with them playing in China, how can you agree with them playing with Israel? Even if Pearl Jam made a morally wrong decision to play in China, two wrongs don't make a right - i.e., why the fuck would you waste your time suggesting they should play in Israel while they're at it too? If anything, you should stand up for the same principles you apply elsewhere.

On the other hand, if you are ok with them playing China and not Israel, then there are obvious reasons why that would make sense. For one, Israel is in violation of more UN Resolutions than any other country in the world, including China.

"The boy with the destroyed brain did not need anaesthetic; he could no longer feel anything. The other lay in an artificial coma with intravenous anaesthetic agents to soften the pain and allow the ventilator to work without resistance from the boy’s own breathing. A large bandage covered both his eyes. He could not see anyway. He was already blind.

Where could I cry out the despair and rage I felt for all this terrible fate we saw at such close quarters? Would the heavens hear? Will the world hear? They know that this is happening, after all. The numbers tick into the West every single afternoon, to the news agencies, to the intelligence services and to the diplomatic missions of the world’s most powerful nations, who do not even make an attempt to pull in the reins and control the wildness of the Israeli war machine."

Dr. Mads Gilbert on the massacre in Gaza

yosi

NoK wrote:

yosi wrote:

Oh, silly me, I didn't realize that Israelis were supposed to forget the entire history of Arab hostility towards them, all the years of war and terror, just because suicide bombers have been replaced with rockets

Sorry but contrary to the fake history that Zionists keep spewing, the only defensive war that Israel has fought throughout its history was that in 1973 and you ended up conceding land. In 1967, what you call a preemptive defensive strike has been proven to be fake. Egyptian armed forces weren't mobilizing at your gates there has been proof that they were scattered in regions next to Yemen at the time. Which is why the Arab forces lost so quickly. We don't have to go into 1948.

Fake history, right, my bad. There is no point in doing this. It's like arguing with a handful of rocks. Just go back and read a bit more, and try to get your hands on some better books.

yosi

Outlaw, you're a jerk. There was no need to turn this into an arena for personal attacks. Go back and read the exchange again between Triumphant and me and you'll see that I was simply responding to his assertions. The quotes denote the statement implied by his previous remark, i.e. I said, to paraphrase, "most Israelis aren't happy when Palestinians die," to which he said "you're wrong, look at these poll numbers," to which I responded "your poll numbers show x, but that does not support y, which is what you were implicitly trying to prove." (do you see how quotes work? kinda neat right?!)

yosi

And Byrnzie, what does your last comment have to do with the bit you quoted from me? And I do not in any way support those settlers, which by the by is another nuance you entirely ignore, namely that the settlers are not a unified block. Most of them are people that were drawn to comfortable, affordable housing, which is the result of government tax policies (policies which I emphatically do not support), and are not the messianic violent nut jobs that your post is about. This crazy fringe element is a much smaller group, and frankly I would very much like to see Israel arrest, try, and imprison every last one of them.

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

Outlaw, you're a jerk. There was no need to turn this into an arena for personal attacks. Go back and read the exchange again between Triumphant and me and you'll see that I was simply responding to his assertions. The quotes denote the statement implied by his previous remark, i.e. I said, to paraphrase, "most Israelis aren't happy when Palestinians die," to which he said "you're wrong, look at these poll numbers," to which I responded "your poll numbers show x, but that does not support y, which is what you were implicitly trying to prove." (do you see how quotes work? kinda neat right?!)

no that is not what happened.

fife asked me to supply a link to a poll that i quoted that showed over 80% of Israelis supported the massacare in Gaza - which i did.

you then jumped in and said "The poll shows support for the operation. It does not show support for a "massacre."

you might not think the murder of hundreds of innocent civillians is not a massacare but i do.

i then said, "the poll shows support for an operation that turned into a massacare, and "even after seeing the consequences and the number of deaths, 90% of the people surveyed think it should continue".

then you tried to change things around and take the focus off my point by saying "why it is that Palestinians rejoice in the streets when a suicide bomber blows up a bus full of school kids, or a cafe full of innocent people"

to which i replied "there has not been a suicide bombing in years Yosi. "hundreds and hundreds of Palestinians have been killed in just the last year alone because of Israeli Terrorism."

and you didn't like that so much, because it's true.

that's what happened.