Should Pearl Jam Play in Israel??
Comments
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badbrains wrote:Come on man, yah im serious. Read the book. You seem to be someone of smart intel. I read it. Got a lot of information. If you've read it, I would love to hear your objections.
Well I'm probably not going to read it, at least any time soon. I've got a big pile of books to work through already. From the comment you posted I think I have a sense of what it's going to say, but how about you provide a summary and I'll respond.you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
TriumphantAngel wrote:all i know, is that if my favorite band that i've loved since i was 12, ever play in Israel while things remain the same, i will see that as them offering support of Israels illegal, brutal occupation and oppression against the Palestinian people.
and i will never forgive them.
rocking in the free world my ass.
i hope that you are just as mad as them playing in the USA.0 -
"80% of Israelis supported the massacare in Gaza in January when 1400 people were murdered, and considered it a job well done. until people from Israel begin to oppose their own government's oppressive policies, this will never end."
Dear Angel, do you have a link to this poll that shows that 80% of aLL Israelis supported this. i have a distrust of pollls so i just want to review the poll.0 -
Pearl Jam should most certainly play in Israel. Especially if they are going to play in China, but that's another issue. In terms of Israel itself, not playing there would sort of presume that all Israelis are on board with what their government does, and that they are all oblivious to the plight of Palestinians. PJ playing in Israel is no more an endorsement of oppressing the Palestinians than playing in China would be an endorsement of totalitarianism and terrible environmental policies.0
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fife wrote:"80% of Israelis supported the massacare in Gaza in January when 1400 people were murdered, and considered it a job well done. until people from Israel begin to oppose their own government's oppressive policies, this will never end."
Dear Angel, do you have a link to this poll that shows that 80% of aLL Israelis supported this. i have a distrust of pollls so i just want to review the poll.
I'd also add that these poll results would VERY MUCH depend on how the relevant question was worded. If you asked people whether they "support a given military action", I suspect you'd get a very different response as compared to "how do you feel about civilians dying in Gaza?"0 -
LOL then why would they play in the states? they bombed Japan!dimitrispearljam wrote:i dont get why u people dont think the fans.....u judge people from nationality..dont get it..pearl jam dont play israel couse of what israel goverment does...so what that means???that the fans of israel are bad people,they are evil?theyshould stop being a fan?
so why they play in japan???they fuckin bomb pearl harborn!!!!and fuckin germany???they start 2nd world war!!!!!come on...
I think most are referring to the current state of affairs in the world.
Okay, lets face it. they should all just stick to Canada.
live pearl jam is best pearl jam0 -
haffajappa wrote:
LOL then why would they play in the states? they bombed Japan!dimitrispearljam wrote:i dont get why u people dont think the fans.....u judge people from nationality..dont get it..pearl jam dont play israel couse of what israel goverment does...so what that means???that the fans of israel are bad people,they are evil?theyshould stop being a fan?
so why they play in japan???they fuckin bomb pearl harborn!!!!and fuckin germany???they start 2nd world war!!!!!come on...
I think most are referring to the current state of affairs in the world.
Okay, lets face it. they should all just stick to Canada.
I'm cool with that.0 -
deal,,6 months they play Canada,and 6 months in Greecehaffajappa wrote:
LOL then why would they play in the states? they bombed Japan!dimitrispearljam wrote:i dont get why u people dont think the fans.....u judge people from nationality..dont get it..pearl jam dont play israel couse of what israel goverment does...so what that means???that the fans of israel are bad people,they are evil?theyshould stop being a fan?
so why they play in japan???they fuckin bomb pearl harborn!!!!and fuckin germany???they start 2nd world war!!!!!come on...
I think most are referring to the current state of affairs in the world.
Okay, lets face it. they should all just stick to Canada."...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”0 -
no way! our country is a zillion times bigger. i'm willing to split 80/20dimitrispearljam wrote:
deal,,6 months they play Canada,and 6 months in Greecehaffajappa wrote:
LOL then why would they play in the states? they bombed Japan!dimitrispearljam wrote:i dont get why u people dont think the fans.....u judge people from nationality..dont get it..pearl jam dont play israel couse of what israel goverment does...so what that means???that the fans of israel are bad people,they are evil?theyshould stop being a fan?
so why they play in japan???they fuckin bomb pearl harborn!!!!and fuckin germany???they start 2nd world war!!!!!come on...
I think most are referring to the current state of affairs in the world.
Okay, lets face it. they should all just stick to Canada.live pearl jam is best pearl jam0 -
NO WAY!!!im Doing u a favor with 50-50 already..we have 9 months SUMMER!!haffajappa wrote:
no way! our country is a zillion times bigger. i'm willing to split 80/20dimitrispearljam wrote:deal,,6 months they play Canada,and 6 months in Greece
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”0 -
i do believe that fans of pearl jam worlwide deserve to experience, what i, as a mad fan, am privileged to know, is only too meaningful, personal and real.... i also had a most intimate conversation (at least for my part; i rambled on as i was on high plain at the time) with two ladies from Israel after the Manchester gig in August last year.... so i do believe individuals matter most, and in this case individual fans ...still, I can't help but feel that if they did play Isreal, somethin in me would feel a measure of discomfort... and often my feelings lack even my own sense of rationality or reason, so that's that i guess...
as for playin in China, i think that's kick ass... rockin country and a rockin people with a profound history... the god damn fuss gets to me, because which god for saken nation ain't guilty of a range of crimes... human rights abuses.. please! the first world has a lot to repent for itself.... and it ain't all history either... it's the currrent state of the world ... and environmental arrogance... forget about it... 3rd world nations gets too much shit for stuff that is goin on everywhere and in every society... and Pearl Jam clearly see that by having decided to rock China... thats why I believe in them...0 -
Sorry to be a little argumentative, but it seems that you're willing to give third-world countries a pass on human rights, but not extend the same pass to first-world countries. So Israel should be held to account because it is first-world, but not China because it is not quite a first-world country yet. Doesn't this kind of undermine entirely the very idea of human rights?you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0
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yosi wrote:Sorry to be a little argumentative, but it seems that you're willing to give third-world countries a pass on human rights, but not extend the same pass to first-world countries. So Israel should be held to account because it is first-world, but not China because it is not quite a first-world country yet. Doesn't this kind of undermine entirely the very idea of human rights?
a fair argument... only 1st world countries get the pass only to often with respect to a variety of matters, and it'll take a hell of a lot of passes for the 3rd world before the imbalance is even close to gettin evened out...
Human rights only exist to very limited degrees in any part of the world... and maybe I'm a pessimist in this regard, but I do not believe they will ever be respected properly.... I am currently in the UK and I've seen shit here (like basic disregard for your fellow being or complete disregard for, and indeed opression of particular minority communities) which I 've never seen in Pakistan, but then again vice versa.... point is, nowhere are things better... so if Pearl Jam are playin China, one should not question that anymore than Pearl Jam playin European countries... I'll let the US go, cuz hell that's their homeland so... but if there's fuss about China, why are there not ever ANY questions about euro tours... for me, it's music and indeed they should tour Euro, but then quit stressin on the China gig
as for Isreal, yeah on that point, like i said, the issue is very personal and my views lack objectivity... (but only becaue here is a country which is just blatantly gettin away with shit which has been labelled legitimate war as opposed to terrorism...hell, that legit war is just as much terrorism for those upon whom its beng waged... it's just that one side are clad in slick military uniforms which makes them "soldiers" , as opposed to terrorists... the only difference therefore is the hypocricy, and that to me is the most significant difference)...
if the fuss on China were taken down several notches, then yeah, maybe my personal feelings on a hypothetical gig in Isreal might also alter...0 -
fife wrote:TriumphantAngel wrote:all i know, is that if my favorite band that i've loved since i was 12, ever play in Israel while things remain the same, i will see that as them offering support of Israels illegal, brutal occupation and oppression against the Palestinian people.
and i will never forgive them.
rocking in the free world my ass.
i hope that you are just as mad as them playing in the USA.
when Pearl Jam play in America, no one is excluded from going. no one is being illegally occupied, brutally and inhumanely treated, and unable to leave the confines of their 'prison,
if they were, then that would be another story wouldn't it. but they're not. so there is no comparison.
if they played in Israel, Palestinians wouldn't be allowed to go. so unless they are, i say no.
boycott israel. free Gaza,0 -
do you? gosh. my heart bleeds for you :roll:yosi wrote:badbrains wrote:I've said before and I'll say it now, pearl jam NOT playing Israel is there way of protesting this issue...I believe it'll remain silent in Israel because we all know if Ed had the mic he would say something and that something would be career suicide....just read the book- they dare to speak out. See what happened to all who ever critisized Israel.....
Yes, yes of course you're right! Because the Jews control the media, and the banks, and the large corporations, and most of the governments! ARE YOU SERIOUS! I feel like it's 1900 in czarist Russia.
imagine how the ordinary Palestinians feel.0 -
The poll, supervised by Professor Camil Fuchs, head of Tel Aviv University's Statistics and Operations Research...fife wrote:"80% of Israelis supported the massacare in Gaza in January when 1400 people were murdered, and considered it a job well done. until people from Israel begin to oppose their own government's oppressive policies, this will never end."
Dear Angel, do you have a link to this poll that shows that 80% of aLL Israelis supported this. i have a distrust of pollls so i just want to review the poll.
Despite pictures from Gaza depicting massive destruction and a large number of wounded and killed, including women and children, 82 percent of the public believe that Israel has not "gone too far" with the military force it is exercising against Hamas.
This means that almost all Israel's Jewish citizens warmly support the operation, its goals, firepower and management.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055564.html
War and Peace Index - December 2008
Prof. Ephraim Yaar and Prof. Tamar Hermann
The War and Peace Index survey that was conducted about a week and a
half after the launching of Operation Cast Lead shows that the operation, with
its various aspects, enjoys overwhelming support from the Israeli Jewish
public: 94% of the public support or strongly support the operation, 92% think
it benefits Israel’s security, and a clear majority, albeit smaller—62%—believe
the operation is also helping Israel from a political standpoint. Ninety-two
percent justify the air force’s attacks in Gaza despite the damage they cause
to infrastructure and the suffering of the civilian population in the Strip. The
decision to introduce ground forces into Gaza also enjoys broad support: 70%
say it was a necessary move.
On the question of whether to continue the operation, the public—unlike the
disagreements among the political leadership—displays unanimity: 90% of the
interviewees think Israel should continue until it achieves all its objectives.
That support goes hand in hand with the large majority’s assessments that
(70%) the operation has high or moderately high chances of achieving all its
objectives and that (75%) the government has a clear plan of action for
continuing the operation in Gaza. Presumably this broad support for
sustaining the fighting is considerably bolstered by the public’s current
positive assessments of the IDF’s fighting capability (93%) and of the
southern communities’ resilience (87%).
In a similar spirit, on the question of whether Israel should or should not cease
the military activity in Gaza if Hamas is prepared to stop firing on the southern
communities in return for opening the crossings, 80% responded negatively.
In otherwords, the majority does not think Israel should stop the operation
even if Hamas agrees to an offer of that kind. Moreover, a similar majority
says Israel should not sign a ceasefire agreement with Hamas if it does not
include the freeing of Gilad Shalit.0 -
yosi wrote:Sorry to be a little argumentative, but it seems that you're willing to give third-world countries a pass on human rights, but not extend the same pass to first-world countries. So Israel should be held to account because it is first-world, but not China because it is not quite a first-world country yet. Doesn't this kind of undermine entirely the very idea of human rights?
but really, even if the fuss on China did die down, the shit Israel is reponsible for and gettin away with is world's apart from anythin goin on in China... coming down hard on or silencing opposition parties, or the media is one thing (and which of course is very much a fact in western countries also) and hell, China doesn't claim to be democratic anyway, so there's no hypocricy here either... but openly fuckin a whole population by droppin bombs on them and deprivin em of basic needs, is another matter altogether...
...0 -
Tibet?!you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0
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TriumphantAngel wrote:
The poll, supervised by Professor Camil Fuchs, head of Tel Aviv University's Statistics and Operations Research...fife wrote:"80% of Israelis supported the massacare in Gaza in January when 1400 people were murdered, and considered it a job well done. until people from Israel begin to oppose their own government's oppressive policies, this will never end."
Dear Angel, do you have a link to this poll that shows that 80% of aLL Israelis supported this. i have a distrust of pollls so i just want to review the poll.
Despite pictures from Gaza depicting massive destruction and a large number of wounded and killed, including women and children, 82 percent of the public believe that Israel has not "gone too far" with the military force it is exercising against Hamas.
This means that almost all Israel's Jewish citizens warmly support the operation, its goals, firepower and management.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055564.html
War and Peace Index - December 2008
Prof. Ephraim Yaar and Prof. Tamar Hermann
The War and Peace Index survey that was conducted about a week and a
half after the launching of Operation Cast Lead shows that the operation, with
its various aspects, enjoys overwhelming support from the Israeli Jewish
public: 94% of the public support or strongly support the operation, 92% think
it benefits Israel’s security, and a clear majority, albeit smaller—62%—believe
the operation is also helping Israel from a political standpoint. Ninety-two
percent justify the air force’s attacks in Gaza despite the damage they cause
to infrastructure and the suffering of the civilian population in the Strip. The
decision to introduce ground forces into Gaza also enjoys broad support: 70%
say it was a necessary move.
On the question of whether to continue the operation, the public—unlike the
disagreements among the political leadership—displays unanimity: 90% of the
interviewees think Israel should continue until it achieves all its objectives.
That support goes hand in hand with the large majority’s assessments that
(70%) the operation has high or moderately high chances of achieving all its
objectives and that (75%) the government has a clear plan of action for
continuing the operation in Gaza. Presumably this broad support for
sustaining the fighting is considerably bolstered by the public’s current
positive assessments of the IDF’s fighting capability (93%) and of the
southern communities’ resilience (87%).
In a similar spirit, on the question of whether Israel should or should not cease
the military activity in Gaza if Hamas is prepared to stop firing on the southern
communities in return for opening the crossings, 80% responded negatively.
In otherwords, the majority does not think Israel should stop the operation
even if Hamas agrees to an offer of that kind. Moreover, a similar majority
says Israel should not sign a ceasefire agreement with Hamas if it does not
include the freeing of Gilad Shalit.
A) Are you really surprised that Israelis supported an offensive against a terrorist organization that has been attacking them for two decades? People here keep saying that if we were living under the conditions the Palestinians live under that we'd probably think like the Palestinians do. Well, if you lived under the conditions that Israelis live under you'd probably think like the Israelis do.
The poll shows support for the operation. It does not show support for a "massacre." If you polled Israelis and asked them whether they supported the IDF lining a thousand Palestinians up against a wall and shooting them, I guarantee you they would not support that. you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0 -
the poll shows support for an operation that turned into a massacare.yosi wrote:A) Are you really surprised that Israelis supported an offensive against a terrorist organization that has been attacking them for two decades? People here keep saying that if we were living under the conditions the Palestinians live under that we'd probably think like the Palestinians do. Well, if you lived under the conditions that Israelis live under you'd probably think like the Israelis do. The poll shows support for the operation. It does not show support for a "massacre." If you polled Israelis and asked them whether they supported the IDF lining a thousand Palestinians up against a wall and shooting them, I guarantee you they would not support that.
even after seeing the consequences and the number of deaths, 90% of the people surveyed think it should continue.0
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