a look back at Israel's criminal acts last year

Byrnzie

TriumphantAngel wrote:

so on your logic, someone can come and steal your house and land. they can then come and tell you if you are a good boy they will give you your front door back. then if you still don't make any fuss, in 6 months you can have your windows back.

get real.

how about give back what is rightfully theirs to start with. just give it the fuck back. there are people there just trying to live their life in peace, forced to live in apartheid conditions. ordinary beautiful people, families and children. the cruel and inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people has to end.

+1

concertaholicshirt

Byrnzie wrote:

concertaholicshirt wrote:

Each time the Israelis try to give something back, they are attacked.

What have they given back?

Edit: I just noticed your careful use of the word 'try', so I'll rephrase my question: When has Israel 'tried' to give something back?

I dunno... maybe you heard of a place called Gaza? Rumor has the Israelis were trying to disengage, but the rockets just kept coming. Not to mention this little bit from Wiki, which certainly isn't kind to Israel:

Meanwhile, Israeli and Egyptian security reports said that Hamas continued smuggling in large quantities of explosives and arms from Egypt through tunnels. Egyptian security forces uncovered 60 tunnels in 2007.[57] Conditions after the Hamas take-over After Hamas' June victory, it started ousting Fatah-linked officials from positions of power and authority in the Strip (such as government positions, security services, universities, newspapers, etc.) and strove to enforce law in the Strip by progressively removing guns from the hands of peripheral militias, clans, and criminal groups, and gaining control of supply tunnels. According to Amnesty International, under Hamas rule, newspapers have been closed down and journalists have been harassed.[58] Fatah demonstrations have been forbidden or suppressed, as in the case of a large demonstration on the anniversary of Yasser Arafat's death, which resulted in the deaths of seven people, after protesters hurled stones at Hamas security forces.[59] Christians were also threatened and assaulted in the Gaza Strip. The owner of a Christian bookshop was abducted and murdered,[60] and on 15 February 2008, the Christian Youth Organization's library in Gaza City was bombed.[61] Hamas has used hospitals and other public buildings as staging grounds for attacks and retaliation,[62] which has resulted in Fatah responding in kind.[63] Hamas and other Gazan militant groups continued to fire home made Qassam rockets from the Strip across the border into Israel. According to Israel, between the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip and the end of January 2008, 697 rockets and 822 mortar bombs were fired at Israeli towns.[64]

Again, I know that many will rationalize this away and point to how it's all Israel's fault :roll: , but there's my specific answer to your specific question.

Byrnzie

concertaholicshirt wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

concertaholicshirt wrote:

Each time the Israelis try to give something back, they are attacked.

What have they given back?

Edit: I just noticed your careful use of the word 'try', so I'll rephrase my question: When has Israel 'tried' to give something back?

I dunno... maybe you heard of a place called Gaza? Rumor has the Israelis were trying to disengage, but the rockets just kept coming. Not to mention this little bit from Wiki, which certainly isn't kind to Israel:

Meanwhile, Israeli and Egyptian security reports said that Hamas continued smuggling in large quantities of explosives and arms from Egypt through tunnels. Egyptian security forces uncovered 60 tunnels in 2007.[57] Conditions after the Hamas take-over After Hamas' June victory, it started ousting Fatah-linked officials from positions of power and authority in the Strip (such as government positions, security services, universities, newspapers, etc.) and strove to enforce law in the Strip by progressively removing guns from the hands of peripheral militias, clans, and criminal groups, and gaining control of supply tunnels. According to Amnesty International, under Hamas rule, newspapers have been closed down and journalists have been harassed.[58] Fatah demonstrations have been forbidden or suppressed, as in the case of a large demonstration on the anniversary of Yasser Arafat's death, which resulted in the deaths of seven people, after protesters hurled stones at Hamas security forces.[59] Christians were also threatened and assaulted in the Gaza Strip. The owner of a Christian bookshop was abducted and murdered,[60] and on 15 February 2008, the Christian Youth Organization's library in Gaza City was bombed.[61] Hamas has used hospitals and other public buildings as staging grounds for attacks and retaliation,[62] which has resulted in Fatah responding in kind.[63] Hamas and other Gazan militant groups continued to fire home made Qassam rockets from the Strip across the border into Israel. According to Israel, between the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip and the end of January 2008, 697 rockets and 822 mortar bombs were fired at Israeli towns.[64]

Again, I know that many will rationalize this away and point to how it's all Israel's fault :roll: , but there's my specific answer to your specific question.

If you're really interested in what the so-called Gaza disengagement entailed then read back a page or two. It certainly had nothing to do with giving anything back.

Norman Finkelstein:
'In a study entitled 'One Big Prison', the respected Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem observed that the crippling economic arrangements Israel had imposed on Gaza would remain in place. In addition, Israel would continue to maintain absolute control over Gaza's land borders, coastline, and airspace, and the Israeli army would continue to operate in Gaza. "So long as these methods of control remain in Israeli hands," B'Tselem concluded, "Israel's claim of 'an end of the Occupation' is questionable". HRW (Human Rights Watch) was even more emphatic that evacuating settlers and troops from inside Gaza would not end the occupation: "Whether the Israeli army is inside Gaza or redeployed around it's periphery, and restricting entrance and exit, it remains in control."

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/D ... y/4222.htm
Key Sharon advisor: "disengagement" aims to stop Palestinian state
By Israel Insider staff and partners October 6, 2004

In a stunning admission, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser said that the purpose of the Israeli government's policy was to supend diplomatic moves to establish a Palestinian state. "The significance of the 'disengagement' plan is the freezing of the peace process," Dov Weissglas told Haaretz.

Weissglas, an initiator of the plan, explained that the deep freeze would prevent implementation of the "Road Map" backed by the Quartet of the United States, Russia, EU and UN: "when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."

"The disengagement is actually formaldehyde," he said. "It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."...

Weisglass trumpets that the main achievement of the Gaza plan was the freezing of the peace process in a "legitimate manner."

"That is exactly what happened," he said. "You know, the term 'peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... [W]hat I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did."

Sharon, he said, could also argue "honestly" that the disengagement plan was "a serious move because of which, out of 240,000 settlers, 190,000 will not be moved from their place."

Pepe Silvia

concertaholicshirt wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

concertaholicshirt wrote:

Each time the Israelis try to give something back, they are attacked.

What have they given back?

Edit: I just noticed your careful use of the word 'try', so I'll rephrase my question: When has Israel 'tried' to give something back?

I dunno... maybe you heard of a place called Gaza? Rumor has the Israelis were trying to disengage, but the rockets just kept coming. Not to mention this little bit from Wiki, which certainly isn't kind to Israel:

Meanwhile, Israeli and Egyptian security reports said that Hamas continued smuggling in large quantities of explosives and arms from Egypt through tunnels. Egyptian security forces uncovered 60 tunnels in 2007.[57] Conditions after the Hamas take-over After Hamas' June victory, it started ousting Fatah-linked officials from positions of power and authority in the Strip (such as government positions, security services, universities, newspapers, etc.) and strove to enforce law in the Strip by progressively removing guns from the hands of peripheral militias, clans, and criminal groups, and gaining control of supply tunnels. According to Amnesty International, under Hamas rule, newspapers have been closed down and journalists have been harassed.[58] Fatah demonstrations have been forbidden or suppressed, as in the case of a large demonstration on the anniversary of Yasser Arafat's death, which resulted in the deaths of seven people, after protesters hurled stones at Hamas security forces.[59] Christians were also threatened and assaulted in the Gaza Strip. The owner of a Christian bookshop was abducted and murdered,[60] and on 15 February 2008, the Christian Youth Organization's library in Gaza City was bombed.[61] Hamas has used hospitals and other public buildings as staging grounds for attacks and retaliation,[62] which has resulted in Fatah responding in kind.[63] Hamas and other Gazan militant groups continued to fire home made Qassam rockets from the Strip across the border into Israel. According to Israel, between the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip and the end of January 2008, 697 rockets and 822 mortar bombs were fired at Israeli towns.[64]

Again, I know that many will rationalize this away and point to how it's all Israel's fault :roll: , but there's my specific answer to your specific question.

uhhhh...how was that answering his question? he asked what has Israel tried to give back and you posted something about Hamas, tunnels, christians....?

i think you mean each time Israel 'tries' to give land back they steal more from another spot

concertaholicshirt

Byrnzie--Maybe if the Palestinians in control didn't start launching attacks pretty much from the get-go, then the Israelis would have continued disengaging in Gaza. Or, maybe not. But it's two doing a tango, my friend, at least as I see it. You're welcome to disagree.

Papa--Byrnzie didn't seem to have any problem figuring out that I was answering the question when I mentioned Gaza. He/she didn't seem to lose their grasp of my answer due to having to also process my quoting of stuff about, "Hamas, tunnels, christians.....?" Don't know how I lost you, but 'Gaza' was the answer.

Pepe Silvia

concertaholicshirt wrote:

Byrnzie--Maybe if the Palestinians in control didn't start launching attacks pretty much from the get-go, then the Israelis would have continued disengaging in Gaza. Or, maybe not. But it's two doing a tango, my friend, at least as I see it. You're welcome to disagree.

Papa--Byrnzie didn't seem to have any problem figuring out that I was answering the question when I mentioned Gaza. He/she didn't seem to lose their grasp of my answer due to having to also process my quoting of stuff about, "Hamas, tunnels, christians.....?" Don't know how I lost you, but 'Gaza' was the answer.

it was still a bullshit answer. saying they tried to give Gaza back isn't as truthful when taken into account that they expanded illegal settlements elsewhere, not to mention the conditions people living in Gaza have to deal with. the rest of your reply was meaningless and had nothing to do with what was asked of you. not to mention Gaza is still under apartheid rule

whatsgoingon

I am not reading all the replies but I will say this the "I was here first" argument is one the dumbest things I have ever heard in my life. Who gives a fuck if "your" people where there 4000 years ago. If this is ever going to be settled thats what people have to start thinking.

You don't see Israel and Egypt firring rockets at each other, why because they have a peace agreement that both countries follow. You have to understand Israel doesn't take crap...they really believe whatever you do us we will do you 10x worse. While that may not be the best attitude it comes from having your malls and buses being blown up.

Also you have to remember that Hamas is really an extension of Iran ( as some would argue that Israel in an extension of the US). So while the fighting is happening in a place the size of DC its really much bigger then that. Be live me you don't want Israel and Iran getting into an actual war cause that would be global cluster fuck.

The next point is that I do believe most people in Israel would support a two state solution ( not sure why Israel needs to approve, can't they just be like OK this shit hole is now a state?) I mean for the most part they pretty much are. However their government ( currently a terrorist organization) is failing people,
perhaps if they had used money for something other the buying and firing rockets then maybe the condition would be better.

The key they need to stop and Israel will stop and why is that is because Israel attacks are reactions to their attacks. While things might not improve very quickly if they showed that they didn't run to rockets I am willing to bet in time Israel would relax restrictions until the border was barely guarded.

Byrnzie

whatsgoingon wrote:

Israel attacks are reactions to their attacks.

That would be a very convenient fact if it had any basis in reality. Unfortunately it doesn't. I'll give you just one example: Israel broke the ceasefire on November 5th 2008 when it crossed into Gaza and murdered 6 Palestinians.

In fact, whilst we're at it, the fact is that the Palestinians are under attack every fucking day from the lunatic settlers. I expect the stats are readily available on the net if you take the time to find them.

Pepe Silvia

concertaholicshirt wrote:

Byrnzie--Maybe if the Palestinians in control didn't start launching attacks pretty much from the get-go, then the Israelis would have continued disengaging in Gaza. Or, maybe not. But it's two doing a tango, my friend, at least as I see it. You're welcome to disagree.

Papa--Byrnzie didn't seem to have any problem figuring out that I was answering the question when I mentioned Gaza. He/she didn't seem to lose their grasp of my answer due to having to also process my quoting of stuff about, "Hamas, tunnels, christians.....?" Don't know how I lost you, but 'Gaza' was the answer.

i just didn't get how that correlated to my op is all. they uncovered tunnels, how do they know every single 1 of them were to smuggle weapons in? has it ever occurred to you that given the crippling sanctions and apartheid imposed by force and how even UNICEF has reported hos the majority of Palestinian children suffer from accute malnutrition because of them....maybe they thought 'gee, i want to feed my child asparagus but Israel for some reason has placed it on the banned item list....i;d sure love for my kid to have crayons, but for some reason Israel has placed them on the banned item lits....i'd sure love to start to rebuild my home that was destroyed/badly damaged a year ago but any sort of supplies but for some reason.....' i'm sure you can see where i'm going here?

they are fenced in with illegal walls, even Israel's supreme court said so!!! save your excuses. i am against violence but comparatively we're talking rocks and homemade rockets vs DU rounds, fragmentary bombs, white phosphorous, targeting civilian infrastructure and collective punishment (which, by the way, is illegal under international law AND the Geneva Conventions just as it is to use some of those weapons on civilians and displacing hudreds of thousands by force to steal more land)

Pepe Silvia

whatsgoingon wrote:

You don't see Israel and Egypt firring rockets at each other, why because they have a peace agreement that both countries follow. You have to understand Israel doesn't take crap...they really believe whatever you do us we will do you 10x worse. While that may not be the best attitude it comes from having your malls and buses being blown up.

is Israel stealing land and 80% of Egypts water while bulldozing down or blowing up Egyptian homes, displacing hundreds of thousands of Egyptians by force while killing thousands more? i'd say that has an awful lot to do with it. some act as if the Israeli's are just standing around minding their own business and the crazy arabs just want to kill all of them. defenders of Israel's actions often cry about how Israeli's live in perpetual fear yet your government's own website assures tourists Israel is 1 of the safest countries in the world, which is it??

the violence didn't start until years of brutal occupation and theft of land and resources and being treated like subhumans while starving their children.

whatsgoingon wrote:

The key they need to stop and Israel will stop and why is that is because Israel attacks are reactions to their attacks. While things might not improve very quickly if they showed that they didn't run to rockets I am willing to bet in time Israel would relax restrictions until the border was barely guarded.

you push someone around and act like a bully long enough and someone is going to snap and lash out. it's like a bully that beats kids up for their lunch money and 1 day a kid punches him back so the bully kicks his ass even harder...you are saying that ass kicking was justified, if the stupid kid had just given his lunch money up without a fight it wouldn't have happened....give me a fucking break

fuck

whatsgoingon wrote:

I am not reading all the replies but I will say this the "I was here first" argument is one the dumbest things I have ever heard in my life. Who gives a fuck if "your" people where there 4000 years ago. If this is ever going to be settled thats what people have to start thinking.

What about the Palestinians that were there 60 years ago? What about those grandparents who were kicked out of their homes by Zionist terrorist organizations? Is that a dumb argument?

You don't see Israel and Egypt firring rockets at each other, why because they have a peace agreement that both countries follow.

what does this have to do with anything? Should Israel feel proud that they are working with one of the most brutal dictatorial regimes to further oppress the Palestinians?

You have to understand Israel doesn't take crap...they really believe whatever you do us we will do you 10x worse. While that may not be the best attitude it comes from having your malls and buses being blown up.

Tell me, when was the first bus blown up? Secondly, how many buses were blown up?

Now, why don't you look up when Israel began occupying and oppressing Palestinians, why don't you look at how many palestinian homes were bulldozed, how many children and people were killed, etc. This was all long before a suicide bombing, in fact, DECADES before. So nothing that Israel does "comes from" ANYTHING the Palestinians do, but rather from a racist, Zionist doctrine.

Also you have to remember that Hamas is really an extension of Iran ( as some would argue that Israel in an extension of the US).

Israel is not an extension of the US and Hamas is not an extension of Iran. Just because they may receive support does not make them "extensions." And what is the point here? We should feel glad that Israel is only terrorizing the Palestinians in Gaza and say "atleast they aren't going to war with Iran (yet), so let's just let them do what they want to the innocent people in Gaza."

The next point is that I do believe most people in Israel would support a two state solution ( not sure why Israel needs to approve, can't they just be like OK this shit hole is now a state?) I mean for the most part they pretty much are. However their government ( currently a terrorist organization) is failing people,
perhaps if they had used money for something other the buying and firing rockets then maybe the condition would be better.

Israel does not want a Palestinian state because it would mean sacrificing the West Bank. Their core belief, the religious, racist doctrine of one Jewish state includes the West Bank and they will continue their occupation until they have it.
Also, Hamas is certainly corrupt, but what could they use their money for? Even if they bought goods, Israel and Egypt, who is collaborating with Israel, would not let anything past the border, so the argument falls flat because of Israel's inhumane blockade against the innocent people of Gaza.

The key they need to stop and Israel will stop and why is that is because Israel attacks are reactions to their attacks. While things might not improve very quickly if they showed that they didn't run to rockets I am willing to bet in time Israel would relax restrictions until the border was barely guarded.

As Byrnzie pointed out, Hamas and Israel entered a ceasefire in June 2008. Israel broke that ceasefire in November when they raided Gaza and killed 6 Palestinians. Furthermore, Israel's massacre of Gaza has already been proven to have been planned as early as March 2008, which means that even though Israel entered a ceasefire with Hamas in June, it was always planning a massive attack that would result in war crimes and crimes against humanity, as was documented by the UN Goldstone Report. Also, part of the ceasefire agreement was that Israel would relax its border restrictions, however Israel did not do that even though Hamas held its end by stopping all rocket attacks.

Byrnzie

This shit should not be happening in this day and age:

Sunday, 27 December 2009

In pictures: Gaza children suffer in wake of conflict

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/8430248.stm

concertaholicshirt

Pepe Silvia wrote:

the violence didn't start until years of brutal occupation...

I don't know whether to or after reading that. Guess I'll settle on :roll:

fuck

concertaholicshirt wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

the violence didn't start until years of brutal occupation...

I don't know whether to or after reading that. Guess I'll settle on :roll:

do you not believe that? tell me, what do you know of the first terrorist organizations in Palestine - that is, the Zionist terror organizations, who were the first ones to bomb cafes, buses, market places, hotels, etc, before the PLO, before Hamas, before any Palestinian nationalist group took on armed struggle against Israeli occupiers in an official form. There were Zionist groups before all that. Just because they operate under the IDF now does not mean they don't exist anymore.

if you disagree with the comment, why don't you just use facts to dispute it rather than write such a stupid post.

Pepe Silvia

_outlaw wrote:

concertaholicshirt wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

the violence didn't start until years of brutal occupation...

I don't know whether to or after reading that. Guess I'll settle on :roll:

do you not believe that? tell me, what do you know of the first terrorist organizations in Palestine - that is, the Zionist terror organizations, who were the first ones to bomb cafes, buses, market places, hotels, etc, before the PLO, before Hamas, before any Palestinian nationalist group took on armed struggle against Israeli occupiers in an official form. There were Zionist groups before all that. Just because they operate under the IDF now does not mean they don't exist anymore.

if you disagree with the comment, why don't you just use facts to dispute it rather than write such a stupid post.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=113500&start=0

concertaholicshirt

_outlaw wrote:

do you not believe that?

No, because it is not true.

tell me, what do you know of the first terrorist organizations in Palestine...

Spare me the lecture. I'd be comfortable wagering that I've forgotten more than you've ever known about the history of terrorism OF BOTH SIDES in that area.

...that is, the Zionist terror organizations, who were the first ones to bomb cafes, buses, market places, hotels, etc, before the PLO, before Hamas, before any Palestinian nationalist group took on armed struggle against Israeli occupiers in an official form.

As to one of your points, sure... because the concept of a Palestinian nation hadn't been thought up yet. There never had been an official independent nation of Palestine prior to the UN establishing Israel, so it wasn't 'Palestinian nationalist group(s)" committing the atrocities. That said, you are woefully uninformed (or something more nefarious) if you are saying that there weren't two sides committing atrocities from Day 1.

if you disagree with the comment, why don't you just use facts to dispute it rather than write such a stupid post.

Because I've had this debate with people like you (from both sides of the issue) way too many times over the years. And, to be clear, by "people like you", I mean people who ignore the history of what occurred and only cite the atrocities of those who they are against. I see no need to waste time citing all sorts of atrocities from the Arab side from Day 1 because you are both dismissive and nasty to me without provocation, and have already shown that you'll either ignore facts and or rationalize away the crimes of the side you support.

TriumphantAngel

_outlaw wrote:

tell me, what do you know of the first terrorist organizations in Palestine...

concertaholicshirt wrote:

Spare me the lecture. I'd be comfortable wagering that I've forgotten more than you've ever known about the history of terrorism OF BOTH SIDES in that area....

ok, so now you have dazzled us all with your brilliance, are you going to answer his question or not?

k.

thanks.

fuck

concertaholicshirt wrote:

tell me, what do you know of the first terrorist organizations in Palestine...

Spare me the lecture. I'd be comfortable wagering that I've forgotten more than you've ever known about the history of terrorism OF BOTH SIDES in that area.

well then you're a moron for ever making that assumption because even I would never make an assumption like that.

...that is, the Zionist terror organizations, who were the first ones to bomb cafes, buses, market places, hotels, etc, before the PLO, before Hamas, before any Palestinian nationalist group took on armed struggle against Israeli occupiers in an official form.

As to one of your points, sure... because the concept of a Palestinian nation hadn't been thought up yet. There never had been an official independent nation of Palestine prior to the UN establishing Israel, so it wasn't 'Palestinian nationalist group(s)" committing the atrocities.

these two sentences are not related in any way, and I hope they were intended that way, though judging by the fact that you wrote them right after one another, I either assume that you think they are connected or you just jump from one point to another without defending any.
in the first sentence you suggest that a concept of a Palestinian state had not been thought up by that time, which is around the 1930s. that's a stupid assumption. there is ample evidence to suggest that for one, the people of the country had thought of themselves as Palestinian, even under Ottoman Rule, and especially under British rule. for more information on this, feel free to check out the respective works of Neville Mandel and Yehoshua Porath.
the second sentence you say there had never been an official independent nation of Palestine prior to the UN establishing Israel. for one, let's be clear: your definition of 'official' here is only that you mean a nation recognized by Western powers. Just because Western powers did not recognize a Palestinian state does not mean that there were no attempts at founding the state that went unrecognized. further, it's hilarious how the same people who try to use the fact that the Arabs had rejected the UN proposal of establishing a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli one in 1947 also try to undermine the fact that a Palestinian nationalist movement did exist. the UN proposal is proof of that. just because the Zionists had more political influence and were able to eventually use violence to achieve their aims should not undermine the legitimacy of the Palestinian cause.

That said, you are woefully uninformed (or something more nefarious) if you are saying that there weren't two sides committing atrocities from Day 1.

this both sides argument is tired. the Arab 'atrocities' you are trying to cite from the early days are largely minimal, most of their methods of rebelling were nonviolent. whereas the Zionists achieved their aims largely through violence. for more information, look up the Irgun, the Lehi, etc, and the massacres that were committed. Look up the bombing of the King David Hotel, the Nakba, the countless wars and battles that were fought in the subsequent decades and what led up to them.

if you disagree with the comment, why don't you just use facts to dispute it rather than write such a stupid post.

Because I've had this debate with people like you (from both sides of the issue) way too many times over the years.

I love the 'I have experience' argument. does that excuse you from providing facts all of a sudden? who issued this rule that if you have this argument with people for so long, you can suddenly say whatever you want and it's true?

And, to be clear, by "people like you", I mean people who ignore the history of what occurred and only cite the atrocities of those who they are against.

care to give me an example of where I ignored history?

I see no need to waste time citing all sorts of atrocities from the Arab side from Day 1 because you are both dismissive and nasty to me without provocation, and have already shown that you'll either ignore facts and or rationalize away the crimes of the side you support.

again, please give me one example of where I have ignored facts. also, you keep saying this 'Day 1', what date or time period exactly do you consider Day 1? and no, you don't need to cite atrocities committed by Palestinians, but rather provide some information on what you think about this conflict, backed by facts. every single post you have had in this thread has been nothing but "you people just don't know what's really going on there, you're so blind to real facts, you're so one-sided, I know more, and I don't need to say anything else, but you're wrong." and then you're trying to tell me you don't like how I'm being "nasty" to you? what a pretentious prick.

Pepe Silvia

Pepe Silvia wrote:

_outlaw wrote:

concertaholicshirt wrote:

I don't know whether to or after reading that. Guess I'll settle on :roll:

do you not believe that? tell me, what do you know of the first terrorist organizations in Palestine - that is, the Zionist terror organizations, who were the first ones to bomb cafes, buses, market places, hotels, etc, before the PLO, before Hamas, before any Palestinian nationalist group took on armed struggle against Israeli occupiers in an official form. There were Zionist groups before all that. Just because they operate under the IDF now does not mean they don't exist anymore.

if you disagree with the comment, why don't you just use facts to dispute it rather than write such a stupid post.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=113500&start=0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun#Criticism

Criticism

Leaders within the mainstream Jewish Agency, Haganah, Histadrut, as well as British authorities, routinely condemned Irgun operations as terrorist and branded it an illegal organization as a result of the group's attacks on civilian targets.[9] However, privately at least the Haganah kept a dialogue with the dissident groups.[58]

In 1948, The New York Times published a letter signed by a number of prominent Jewish figures including Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, Sidney Hook, and Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, which described Irgun as a "a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine".[59][60] The letter went on to state that Irgun and the Stern gang "inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and widespread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute." [12]

Soon after World War II, Winston Churchill said "we should never have stopped immigration before the war", but that the Irgun were "the vilest gangsters" and that he would "never forgive the Irgun terrorists."[10]

A US Military Intelligence report, dated January 1948, described Irgun recruiting tactics amongst Displaced Persons (DP) in the camps across Germany:

'Irgun ... seems to be concentrating on the DP police force. This is an old technique in Eastern Europe and in all police states. By controlling the police, a small, unscrupulous group of determined people can impose its will on a peaceful and inarticulate majority; it is done by threats, intimidation, by violence and if need be bloodshed ... they have embarked upon a course of violence within the camps.'[61]

Clare Hollingworth, the Daily Telegraph and Scotsman correspondent in Jerusalem during 1948 wrote several outspoken reports after spending several weeks in West Jerusalem:

'Irgun is in fact rapidly becoming the 'SS' of the new state. There is also a strong 'Gestapo' - but no-one knows who is in it.'

'The shopkeepers are afraid not so much of shells as of raids by Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang. These young toughs, who are beyond whatever law there is have cleaned out most private houses of the richer classes & started to prey upon the shopkeepers.'
—Clare Hollingworth reporting on West Jerusalem June 2 1948[62][63]

In 2006, Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv at the time, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem at the time, wrote in response to a pro-Irgun commemoration of the King David Hotel bombing:

"We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated." They also called for the removal of plaques at the site which blame the deaths on "ignored warning calls."

The plaques read:

"For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated,” but McDonald and Jenkins asserted that no such warning calls were made, adding that even if they had, "this does not absolve those who planted the bomb from responsibility for the deaths."[7]

Ha'aretz columnist and Israeli historian, Tom Segev, wrote of the Irgun: "In the second half of 1940, a few members of the Irgun Zvai Leumi (National Military Organization) -- the anti-British terrorist group sponsored by the Revisionists and known by its acronym Etzel, and to the British simply as the Irgun -- made contact with representatives of Fascist Italy, offering to cooperate against the British."[11]

Alan Dershowitz wrote in his book The Case for Israel that "[Removal of Arabs] certainly seems to have been the policy of the Irgun".[64]

concertaholicshirt

Wow... awesome stuff. Pepe, Outlaw and Angel have shown me the error of my ways. Supporters of Israel are evil, and the Palestinians are altruistic lovers of peace. May you one day experience their rule. Thanks for letting me see the light. Peace.