But I think the Jews should someday be able to catch a break somewhere. I'm sure it gets old that all of your neighbors want you dead, and not just because of this 'occupation'. I think the Jews may be the most persecuted group, ever.
When does the mandate of victimhood expire? At what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?
if Mexico was doing this in parts of Texas or California i'm pretty sure americans would react far more violently than the Palestinians have
The invasion of California and Texas has been happening for years and is spreading throughout the country. The plague will continue since this administration is going to grant amnesty to 12 million criminals. But that is another topic.
i think there's a bit of a gap in comparing immigrants coming to america to Israel's brutal occupation and theft of land and water....
also i'm unaware of any amnesty to 12 million criminals
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
if Mexico was doing this in parts of Texas or California i'm pretty sure americans would react far more violently than the Palestinians have
The invasion of California and Texas has been happening for years and is spreading throughout the country. The plague will continue since this administration is going to grant amnesty to 12 million criminals. But that is another topic.
i think there's a bit of a gap in comparing immigrants coming to america to Israel's brutal occupation and theft of land and water....
also i'm unaware of any amnesty to 12 million criminals
Like I said another topic. Don't confuse immigrants who come here legally and are law-abiding with those that are illegal aliens and are criminals.
But I think the Jews should someday be able to catch a break somewhere. I'm sure it gets old that all of your neighbors want you dead, and not just because of this 'occupation'. I think the Jews may be the most persecuted group, ever.
When does the mandate of victimhood expire? At what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?
I didn't excuse them for anything but go ahead and try to put words in my mouth anyway. I said they need a break and again until BOTH sides agree to something peace will not be achieved. This 'occupation' is not the only reason in history that others have wanted to kill Jews. It seems to me that those that wish them harm come up with whatever excuse in convenient at the present.
An occupation is an occupation. But before you spout off and make comparisons go research illegal alien gangs like MS13 and others like them. You tell me who is more violent. The drug war is spilling into the streets of America, due to our porous borders and lack of enforcing immigration laws.
An occupation is an occupation. But before you spout off and make comparisons go research illegal alien gangs like MS13 and others like them. You tell me who is more violent. The drug war is spilling into the streets of America, due to our porous borders and lack of enforcing immigration laws.
im sorry but hating illegals is not my main goal in life as it is yours since every thread you post in somehow comes back to illegals. yeah MS 13 are bad dudes, but not all of the illegals are in ms13.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
But I think the Jews should someday be able to catch a break somewhere. I'm sure it gets old that all of your neighbors want you dead, and not just because of this 'occupation'. I think the Jews may be the most persecuted group, ever.
When does the mandate of victimhood expire? At what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?
I didn't excuse them for anything but go ahead and try to put words in my mouth anyway. I said they need a break and again until BOTH sides agree to something peace will not be achieved. This 'occupation' is not the only reason in history that others have wanted to kill Jews. It seems to me that those that wish them harm come up with whatever excuse in convenient at the present.
i'm not putting words in your mouth. you do it all yourself. you don't care, so why even bother coming into a thread that you don't care about?
But I think the Jews should someday be able to catch a break somewhere. I'm sure it gets old that all of your neighbors want you dead, and not just because of this 'occupation'. I think the Jews may be the most persecuted group, ever.
When does the mandate of victimhood expire? At what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?
I didn't excuse them for anything but go ahead and try to put words in my mouth anyway. I said they need a break and again until BOTH sides agree to something peace will not be achieved. This 'occupation' is not the only reason in history that others have wanted to kill Jews. It seems to me that those that wish them harm come up with whatever excuse in convenient at the present.
the only obstacle to peace at the moment is Isreal.
the Palestinians have agreed to ceasefire if israel withdraws to the 68 borders, which israel refuses to do.
telling us israels desire for land is stronger than its desire for peace.
the israeli leadership does not care about the rocket attacks, they can put a stop to them anytime they choose. terrorism is in israel is s reaction to isreali policies, as it did not exist before 1981. on the other hand israeli brutality had been going on for decades. its simple. israel is provoking the palestinians.
When does the mandate of victimhood expire? At what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?
I dunno, but just out of curiosity... When does the mandate of victimhood expire? At what point does the 1967 war cease to excuse the (official and unofficial) states of Palestine (from PLO to Hamas to Fatah) from the demands of international law and of common humanity? I'm just askin'.
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When does the mandate of victimhood expire? At what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?
I dunno, but just out of curiosity... When does the mandate of victimhood expire? At what point does the 1967 war cease to excuse the (official and unofficial) states of Palestine (from PLO to Hamas to Fatah) from the demands of international law and of common humanity? I'm just askin'.
At the point when the illegal occupation post '67 ceases, and the ongoing land grab ceases.
We're not talking about the past here; the occupation and the illegal blockade of Gaza are happening today.
I was being tongue-in-cheek, with a dash of snideness on top. That said, it's an endless cycle. But I stand by my assertion that it takes two to tango, and a tango it is... it ain't a solo performance.
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if isreal would pull out of the settlements there may be peace. isreal will not pull out, so the cycle continues and it is perpetuated by isreal's stealing of and occupation of palestinian land. isreal would not exist as it is today if not for the un basically creating their statehood.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
if isreal would pull out of the settlements there may be peace...
As much as I wish I could agree with you, I just don't believe that to be the case. Perhaps I'm a victim of Zionist propaganda, but I sort of get the impression that every time the Israelis do cede back some property or ease up on restrictions, instead of gratitude and reciprocity coming their way, it's mortars and suicide bombers that come back. Again... we can debate for a lifetime as to whether it's justified, provoked or whatever, but that does seem to be the standard operating procedure in play. Don't know how that's overcome :(
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if isreal would pull out of the settlements there may be peace...
As much as I wish I could agree with you, I just don't believe that to be the case. Perhaps I'm a victim of Zionist propaganda, but I sort of get the impression that every time the Israelis do cede back some property or ease up on restrictions, instead of gratitude and reciprocity coming their way, it's mortars and suicide bombers that come back. Again... we can debate for a lifetime as to whether it's justified, provoked or whatever, but that does seem to be the standard operating procedure in play. Don't know how that's overcome :(
if you want peace you have to work for it. peace is not something that falls out of the sky. pull back to the original borders if you are serious about peace. if isreal does not do that then they do not truely desire peace. you cant have peace at the barrel of a gun nor can you have peace with your boot across someone's throat.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Seemed to work pretty good with the Japanese and Germans That bit of my assholery aside, I think you are missing the gravity of what I said. Each time the Israelis try to give something back, they are attacked. If I say, "Look, I'll give you 5 acres. If that goes well, I'll give you another 5," and then you kick me in the balls almost everyday after I give you the first 5 acres, I'm probably not going to give you anything else back.
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Seemed to work pretty good with the Japanese and Germans That bit of my assholery aside, I think you are missing the gravity of what I said. Each time the Israelis try to give something back, they are attacked. If I say, "Look, I'll give you 5 acres. If that goes well, I'll give you another 5," and then you kick me in the balls almost everyday after I give you the first 5 acres, I'm probably not going to give you anything else back.
probably not going to give anything else back?
so on your logic, someone can come and steal your house and land. they can then come and tell you if you are a good boy they will give you your front door back. then if you still don't make any fuss, in 6 months you can have your windows back.
get real.
how about give back what is rightfully theirs to start with. just give it the fuck back. there are people there just trying to live their life in peace, forced to live in apartheid conditions. ordinary beautiful people, families and children. the cruel and inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people has to end.
every time the Israelis do cede back some property or ease up on restrictions, instead of gratitude and reciprocity coming their way, it's mortars and suicide bombers that come back.(
so on your logic, someone can come and steal your house and land. they can then come and tell you if you are a good boy they will give you your front door back. then if you still don't make any fuss, in 6 months you can have your windows back.
get real.
how about give back what is rightfully theirs to start with. just give it the fuck back. there are people there just trying to live their life in peace, forced to live in apartheid conditions. ordinary beautiful people, families and children. the cruel and inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people has to end.
Each time the Israelis try to give something back, they are attacked.
What have they given back?
Edit: I just noticed your careful use of the word 'try', so I'll rephrase my question: When has Israel 'tried' to give something back?
I dunno... maybe you heard of a place called Gaza? Rumor has the Israelis were trying to disengage, but the rockets just kept coming. Not to mention this little bit from Wiki, which certainly isn't kind to Israel:
Meanwhile, Israeli and Egyptian security reports said that Hamas continued smuggling in large quantities of explosives and arms from Egypt through tunnels. Egyptian security forces uncovered 60 tunnels in 2007.[57]
Conditions after the Hamas take-over
After Hamas' June victory, it started ousting Fatah-linked officials from positions of power and authority in the Strip (such as government positions, security services, universities, newspapers, etc.) and strove to enforce law in the Strip by progressively removing guns from the hands of peripheral militias, clans, and criminal groups, and gaining control of supply tunnels. According to Amnesty International, under Hamas rule, newspapers have been closed down and journalists have been harassed.[58] Fatah demonstrations have been forbidden or suppressed, as in the case of a large demonstration on the anniversary of Yasser Arafat's death, which resulted in the deaths of seven people, after protesters hurled stones at Hamas security forces.[59]
Christians were also threatened and assaulted in the Gaza Strip. The owner of a Christian bookshop was abducted and murdered,[60] and on 15 February 2008, the Christian Youth Organization's library in Gaza City was bombed.[61] Hamas has used hospitals and other public buildings as staging grounds for attacks and retaliation,[62] which has resulted in Fatah responding in kind.[63]
Hamas and other Gazan militant groups continued to fire home made Qassam rockets from the Strip across the border into Israel. According to Israel, between the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip and the end of January 2008, 697 rockets and 822 mortar bombs were fired at Israeli towns.[64]
Again, I know that many will rationalize this away and point to how it's all Israel's fault :roll: , but there's my specific answer to your specific question.
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Each time the Israelis try to give something back, they are attacked.
What have they given back?
Edit: I just noticed your careful use of the word 'try', so I'll rephrase my question: When has Israel 'tried' to give something back?
I dunno... maybe you heard of a place called Gaza? Rumor has the Israelis were trying to disengage, but the rockets just kept coming. Not to mention this little bit from Wiki, which certainly isn't kind to Israel:
Meanwhile, Israeli and Egyptian security reports said that Hamas continued smuggling in large quantities of explosives and arms from Egypt through tunnels. Egyptian security forces uncovered 60 tunnels in 2007.[57]
Conditions after the Hamas take-over
After Hamas' June victory, it started ousting Fatah-linked officials from positions of power and authority in the Strip (such as government positions, security services, universities, newspapers, etc.) and strove to enforce law in the Strip by progressively removing guns from the hands of peripheral militias, clans, and criminal groups, and gaining control of supply tunnels. According to Amnesty International, under Hamas rule, newspapers have been closed down and journalists have been harassed.[58] Fatah demonstrations have been forbidden or suppressed, as in the case of a large demonstration on the anniversary of Yasser Arafat's death, which resulted in the deaths of seven people, after protesters hurled stones at Hamas security forces.[59]
Christians were also threatened and assaulted in the Gaza Strip. The owner of a Christian bookshop was abducted and murdered,[60] and on 15 February 2008, the Christian Youth Organization's library in Gaza City was bombed.[61] Hamas has used hospitals and other public buildings as staging grounds for attacks and retaliation,[62] which has resulted in Fatah responding in kind.[63]
Hamas and other Gazan militant groups continued to fire home made Qassam rockets from the Strip across the border into Israel. According to Israel, between the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip and the end of January 2008, 697 rockets and 822 mortar bombs were fired at Israeli towns.[64]
Again, I know that many will rationalize this away and point to how it's all Israel's fault :roll: , but there's my specific answer to your specific question.
If you're really interested in what the so-called Gaza disengagement entailed then read back a page or two. It certainly had nothing to do with giving anything back.
Norman Finkelstein:
'In a study entitled 'One Big Prison', the respected Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem observed that the crippling economic arrangements Israel had imposed on Gaza would remain in place. In addition, Israel would continue to maintain absolute control over Gaza's land borders, coastline, and airspace, and the Israeli army would continue to operate in Gaza. "So long as these methods of control remain in Israeli hands," B'Tselem concluded, "Israel's claim of 'an end of the Occupation' is questionable". HRW (Human Rights Watch) was even more emphatic that evacuating settlers and troops from inside Gaza would not end the occupation: "Whether the Israeli army is inside Gaza or redeployed around it's periphery, and restricting entrance and exit, it remains in control."
In a stunning admission, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser said that the purpose of the Israeli government's policy was to supend diplomatic moves to establish a Palestinian state. "The significance of the 'disengagement' plan is the freezing of the peace process," Dov Weissglas told Haaretz.
Weissglas, an initiator of the plan, explained that the deep freeze would prevent implementation of the "Road Map" backed by the Quartet of the United States, Russia, EU and UN: "when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."
"The disengagement is actually formaldehyde," he said. "It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."...
Weisglass trumpets that the main achievement of the Gaza plan was the freezing of the peace process in a "legitimate manner."
"That is exactly what happened," he said. "You know, the term 'peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... [W]hat I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did."
Sharon, he said, could also argue "honestly" that the disengagement plan was "a serious move because of which, out of 240,000 settlers, 190,000 will not be moved from their place."
Each time the Israelis try to give something back, they are attacked.
What have they given back?
Edit: I just noticed your careful use of the word 'try', so I'll rephrase my question: When has Israel 'tried' to give something back?
I dunno... maybe you heard of a place called Gaza? Rumor has the Israelis were trying to disengage, but the rockets just kept coming. Not to mention this little bit from Wiki, which certainly isn't kind to Israel:
Meanwhile, Israeli and Egyptian security reports said that Hamas continued smuggling in large quantities of explosives and arms from Egypt through tunnels. Egyptian security forces uncovered 60 tunnels in 2007.[57]
Conditions after the Hamas take-over
After Hamas' June victory, it started ousting Fatah-linked officials from positions of power and authority in the Strip (such as government positions, security services, universities, newspapers, etc.) and strove to enforce law in the Strip by progressively removing guns from the hands of peripheral militias, clans, and criminal groups, and gaining control of supply tunnels. According to Amnesty International, under Hamas rule, newspapers have been closed down and journalists have been harassed.[58] Fatah demonstrations have been forbidden or suppressed, as in the case of a large demonstration on the anniversary of Yasser Arafat's death, which resulted in the deaths of seven people, after protesters hurled stones at Hamas security forces.[59]
Christians were also threatened and assaulted in the Gaza Strip. The owner of a Christian bookshop was abducted and murdered,[60] and on 15 February 2008, the Christian Youth Organization's library in Gaza City was bombed.[61] Hamas has used hospitals and other public buildings as staging grounds for attacks and retaliation,[62] which has resulted in Fatah responding in kind.[63]
Hamas and other Gazan militant groups continued to fire home made Qassam rockets from the Strip across the border into Israel. According to Israel, between the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip and the end of January 2008, 697 rockets and 822 mortar bombs were fired at Israeli towns.[64]
Again, I know that many will rationalize this away and point to how it's all Israel's fault :roll: , but there's my specific answer to your specific question.
uhhhh...how was that answering his question? he asked what has Israel tried to give back and you posted something about Hamas, tunnels, christians....?
i think you mean each time Israel 'tries' to give land back they steal more from another spot
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
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when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Byrnzie--Maybe if the Palestinians in control didn't start launching attacks pretty much from the get-go, then the Israelis would have continued disengaging in Gaza. Or, maybe not. But it's two doing a tango, my friend, at least as I see it. You're welcome to disagree.
Papa--Byrnzie didn't seem to have any problem figuring out that I was answering the question when I mentioned Gaza. He/she didn't seem to lose their grasp of my answer due to having to also process my quoting of stuff about, "Hamas, tunnels, christians.....?" Don't know how I lost you, but 'Gaza' was the answer.
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Byrnzie--Maybe if the Palestinians in control didn't start launching attacks pretty much from the get-go, then the Israelis would have continued disengaging in Gaza. Or, maybe not. But it's two doing a tango, my friend, at least as I see it. You're welcome to disagree.
Papa--Byrnzie didn't seem to have any problem figuring out that I was answering the question when I mentioned Gaza. He/she didn't seem to lose their grasp of my answer due to having to also process my quoting of stuff about, "Hamas, tunnels, christians.....?" Don't know how I lost you, but 'Gaza' was the answer.
it was still a bullshit answer. saying they tried to give Gaza back isn't as truthful when taken into account that they expanded illegal settlements elsewhere, not to mention the conditions people living in Gaza have to deal with. the rest of your reply was meaningless and had nothing to do with what was asked of you. not to mention Gaza is still under apartheid rule
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I am not reading all the replies but I will say this the "I was here first" argument is one the dumbest things I have ever heard in my life. Who gives a fuck if "your" people where there 4000 years ago. If this is ever going to be settled thats what people have to start thinking.
You don't see Israel and Egypt firring rockets at each other, why because they have a peace agreement that both countries follow. You have to understand Israel doesn't take crap...they really believe whatever you do us we will do you 10x worse. While that may not be the best attitude it comes from having your malls and buses being blown up.
Also you have to remember that Hamas is really an extension of Iran ( as some would argue that Israel in an extension of the US). So while the fighting is happening in a place the size of DC its really much bigger then that. Be live me you don't want Israel and Iran getting into an actual war cause that would be global cluster fuck.
The next point is that I do believe most people in Israel would support a two state solution ( not sure why Israel needs to approve, can't they just be like OK this shit hole is now a state?) I mean for the most part they pretty much are. However their government ( currently a terrorist organization) is failing people,
perhaps if they had used money for something other the buying and firing rockets then maybe the condition would be better.
The key they need to stop and Israel will stop and why is that is because Israel attacks are reactions to their attacks. While things might not improve very quickly if they showed that they didn't run to rockets I am willing to bet in time Israel would relax restrictions until the border was barely guarded.
That would be a very convenient fact if it had any basis in reality. Unfortunately it doesn't. I'll give you just one example: Israel broke the ceasefire on November 5th 2008 when it crossed into Gaza and murdered 6 Palestinians.
In fact, whilst we're at it, the fact is that the Palestinians are under attack every fucking day from the lunatic settlers. I expect the stats are readily available on the net if you take the time to find them.
Byrnzie--Maybe if the Palestinians in control didn't start launching attacks pretty much from the get-go, then the Israelis would have continued disengaging in Gaza. Or, maybe not. But it's two doing a tango, my friend, at least as I see it. You're welcome to disagree.
Papa--Byrnzie didn't seem to have any problem figuring out that I was answering the question when I mentioned Gaza. He/she didn't seem to lose their grasp of my answer due to having to also process my quoting of stuff about, "Hamas, tunnels, christians.....?" Don't know how I lost you, but 'Gaza' was the answer.
i just didn't get how that correlated to my op is all. they uncovered tunnels, how do they know every single 1 of them were to smuggle weapons in? has it ever occurred to you that given the crippling sanctions and apartheid imposed by force and how even UNICEF has reported hos the majority of Palestinian children suffer from accute malnutrition because of them....maybe they thought 'gee, i want to feed my child asparagus but Israel for some reason has placed it on the banned item list....i;d sure love for my kid to have crayons, but for some reason Israel has placed them on the banned item lits....i'd sure love to start to rebuild my home that was destroyed/badly damaged a year ago but any sort of supplies but for some reason.....' i'm sure you can see where i'm going here?
they are fenced in with illegal walls, even Israel's supreme court said so!!! save your excuses. i am against violence but comparatively we're talking rocks and homemade rockets vs DU rounds, fragmentary bombs, white phosphorous, targeting civilian infrastructure and collective punishment (which, by the way, is illegal under international law AND the Geneva Conventions just as it is to use some of those weapons on civilians and displacing hudreds of thousands by force to steal more land)
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
You don't see Israel and Egypt firring rockets at each other, why because they have a peace agreement that both countries follow. You have to understand Israel doesn't take crap...they really believe whatever you do us we will do you 10x worse. While that may not be the best attitude it comes from having your malls and buses being blown up.
is Israel stealing land and 80% of Egypts water while bulldozing down or blowing up Egyptian homes, displacing hundreds of thousands of Egyptians by force while killing thousands more? i'd say that has an awful lot to do with it. some act as if the Israeli's are just standing around minding their own business and the crazy arabs just want to kill all of them. defenders of Israel's actions often cry about how Israeli's live in perpetual fear yet your government's own website assures tourists Israel is 1 of the safest countries in the world, which is it??
the violence didn't start until years of brutal occupation and theft of land and resources and being treated like subhumans while starving their children.
The key they need to stop and Israel will stop and why is that is because Israel attacks are reactions to their attacks. While things might not improve very quickly if they showed that they didn't run to rockets I am willing to bet in time Israel would relax restrictions until the border was barely guarded.
you push someone around and act like a bully long enough and someone is going to snap and lash out. it's like a bully that beats kids up for their lunch money and 1 day a kid punches him back so the bully kicks his ass even harder...you are saying that ass kicking was justified, if the stupid kid had just given his lunch money up without a fight it wouldn't have happened....give me a fucking break
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Comments
i think there's a bit of a gap in comparing immigrants coming to america to Israel's brutal occupation and theft of land and water....
also i'm unaware of any amnesty to 12 million criminals
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Like I said another topic. Don't confuse immigrants who come here legally and are law-abiding with those that are illegal aliens and are criminals.
I didn't excuse them for anything but go ahead and try to put words in my mouth anyway. I said they need a break and again until BOTH sides agree to something peace will not be achieved. This 'occupation' is not the only reason in history that others have wanted to kill Jews. It seems to me that those that wish them harm come up with whatever excuse in convenient at the present.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
An occupation is an occupation. But before you spout off and make comparisons go research illegal alien gangs like MS13 and others like them. You tell me who is more violent. The drug war is spilling into the streets of America, due to our porous borders and lack of enforcing immigration laws.
yeah migrant workers = soldiers killing palestinians and blowing up busses....
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
im sorry but hating illegals is not my main goal in life as it is yours since every thread you post in somehow comes back to illegals. yeah MS 13 are bad dudes, but not all of the illegals are in ms13.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
the Palestinians have agreed to ceasefire if israel withdraws to the 68 borders, which israel refuses to do.
telling us israels desire for land is stronger than its desire for peace.
the israeli leadership does not care about the rocket attacks, they can put a stop to them anytime they choose. terrorism is in israel is s reaction to isreali policies, as it did not exist before 1981. on the other hand israeli brutality had been going on for decades. its simple. israel is provoking the palestinians.
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At the point when the illegal occupation post '67 ceases, and the ongoing land grab ceases.
We're not talking about the past here; the occupation and the illegal blockade of Gaza are happening today.
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"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
MSG 1 & 2 2010
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EV NYC 2 2011
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Mike DESTROYING in Seattle 2013
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - HST
Instagram (great concert shots of many bands): concertaholic
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
MSG 1 & 2 2010
Montreal 2011
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Denver 2014
Central Park NYC 2015
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Seattle 1 2018
~~~~~~~
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RNDM NYC 2012
TOTD SF 2016
Highlights Of Last Spectrum Show
Mike DESTROYING in Seattle 2013
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - HST
Instagram (great concert shots of many bands): concertaholic
so on your logic, someone can come and steal your house and land. they can then come and tell you if you are a good boy they will give you your front door back. then if you still don't make any fuss, in 6 months you can have your windows back.
get real.
how about give back what is rightfully theirs to start with. just give it the fuck back. there are people there just trying to live their life in peace, forced to live in apartheid conditions. ordinary beautiful people, families and children. the cruel and inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people has to end.
Care to provide an example?
What have they given back?
Edit: I just noticed your careful use of the word 'try', so I'll rephrase my question: When has Israel 'tried' to give something back?
+1
Meanwhile, Israeli and Egyptian security reports said that Hamas continued smuggling in large quantities of explosives and arms from Egypt through tunnels. Egyptian security forces uncovered 60 tunnels in 2007.[57] Conditions after the Hamas take-over After Hamas' June victory, it started ousting Fatah-linked officials from positions of power and authority in the Strip (such as government positions, security services, universities, newspapers, etc.) and strove to enforce law in the Strip by progressively removing guns from the hands of peripheral militias, clans, and criminal groups, and gaining control of supply tunnels. According to Amnesty International, under Hamas rule, newspapers have been closed down and journalists have been harassed.[58] Fatah demonstrations have been forbidden or suppressed, as in the case of a large demonstration on the anniversary of Yasser Arafat's death, which resulted in the deaths of seven people, after protesters hurled stones at Hamas security forces.[59] Christians were also threatened and assaulted in the Gaza Strip. The owner of a Christian bookshop was abducted and murdered,[60] and on 15 February 2008, the Christian Youth Organization's library in Gaza City was bombed.[61] Hamas has used hospitals and other public buildings as staging grounds for attacks and retaliation,[62] which has resulted in Fatah responding in kind.[63] Hamas and other Gazan militant groups continued to fire home made Qassam rockets from the Strip across the border into Israel. According to Israel, between the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip and the end of January 2008, 697 rockets and 822 mortar bombs were fired at Israeli towns.[64]
Again, I know that many will rationalize this away and point to how it's all Israel's fault :roll: , but there's my specific answer to your specific question.MSG 1 & 2 2010
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If you're really interested in what the so-called Gaza disengagement entailed then read back a page or two. It certainly had nothing to do with giving anything back.
Norman Finkelstein:
'In a study entitled 'One Big Prison', the respected Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem observed that the crippling economic arrangements Israel had imposed on Gaza would remain in place. In addition, Israel would continue to maintain absolute control over Gaza's land borders, coastline, and airspace, and the Israeli army would continue to operate in Gaza. "So long as these methods of control remain in Israeli hands," B'Tselem concluded, "Israel's claim of 'an end of the Occupation' is questionable". HRW (Human Rights Watch) was even more emphatic that evacuating settlers and troops from inside Gaza would not end the occupation: "Whether the Israeli army is inside Gaza or redeployed around it's periphery, and restricting entrance and exit, it remains in control."
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/D ... y/4222.htm
Key Sharon advisor: "disengagement" aims to stop Palestinian state
By Israel Insider staff and partners October 6, 2004
In a stunning admission, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser said that the purpose of the Israeli government's policy was to supend diplomatic moves to establish a Palestinian state. "The significance of the 'disengagement' plan is the freezing of the peace process," Dov Weissglas told Haaretz.
Weissglas, an initiator of the plan, explained that the deep freeze would prevent implementation of the "Road Map" backed by the Quartet of the United States, Russia, EU and UN: "when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."
"The disengagement is actually formaldehyde," he said. "It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."...
Weisglass trumpets that the main achievement of the Gaza plan was the freezing of the peace process in a "legitimate manner."
"That is exactly what happened," he said. "You know, the term 'peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... [W]hat I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did."
Sharon, he said, could also argue "honestly" that the disengagement plan was "a serious move because of which, out of 240,000 settlers, 190,000 will not be moved from their place."
uhhhh...how was that answering his question? he asked what has Israel tried to give back and you posted something about Hamas, tunnels, christians....?
i think you mean each time Israel 'tries' to give land back they steal more from another spot
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Papa--Byrnzie didn't seem to have any problem figuring out that I was answering the question when I mentioned Gaza. He/she didn't seem to lose their grasp of my answer due to having to also process my quoting of stuff about, "Hamas, tunnels, christians.....?" Don't know how I lost you, but 'Gaza' was the answer.
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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - HST
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it was still a bullshit answer. saying they tried to give Gaza back isn't as truthful when taken into account that they expanded illegal settlements elsewhere, not to mention the conditions people living in Gaza have to deal with. the rest of your reply was meaningless and had nothing to do with what was asked of you. not to mention Gaza is still under apartheid rule
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
You don't see Israel and Egypt firring rockets at each other, why because they have a peace agreement that both countries follow. You have to understand Israel doesn't take crap...they really believe whatever you do us we will do you 10x worse. While that may not be the best attitude it comes from having your malls and buses being blown up.
Also you have to remember that Hamas is really an extension of Iran ( as some would argue that Israel in an extension of the US). So while the fighting is happening in a place the size of DC its really much bigger then that. Be live me you don't want Israel and Iran getting into an actual war cause that would be global cluster fuck.
The next point is that I do believe most people in Israel would support a two state solution ( not sure why Israel needs to approve, can't they just be like OK this shit hole is now a state?) I mean for the most part they pretty much are. However their government ( currently a terrorist organization) is failing people,
perhaps if they had used money for something other the buying and firing rockets then maybe the condition would be better.
The key they need to stop and Israel will stop and why is that is because Israel attacks are reactions to their attacks. While things might not improve very quickly if they showed that they didn't run to rockets I am willing to bet in time Israel would relax restrictions until the border was barely guarded.
That would be a very convenient fact if it had any basis in reality. Unfortunately it doesn't. I'll give you just one example: Israel broke the ceasefire on November 5th 2008 when it crossed into Gaza and murdered 6 Palestinians.
In fact, whilst we're at it, the fact is that the Palestinians are under attack every fucking day from the lunatic settlers. I expect the stats are readily available on the net if you take the time to find them.
i just didn't get how that correlated to my op is all. they uncovered tunnels, how do they know every single 1 of them were to smuggle weapons in? has it ever occurred to you that given the crippling sanctions and apartheid imposed by force and how even UNICEF has reported hos the majority of Palestinian children suffer from accute malnutrition because of them....maybe they thought 'gee, i want to feed my child asparagus but Israel for some reason has placed it on the banned item list....i;d sure love for my kid to have crayons, but for some reason Israel has placed them on the banned item lits....i'd sure love to start to rebuild my home that was destroyed/badly damaged a year ago but any sort of supplies but for some reason.....' i'm sure you can see where i'm going here?
they are fenced in with illegal walls, even Israel's supreme court said so!!! save your excuses. i am against violence but comparatively we're talking rocks and homemade rockets vs DU rounds, fragmentary bombs, white phosphorous, targeting civilian infrastructure and collective punishment (which, by the way, is illegal under international law AND the Geneva Conventions just as it is to use some of those weapons on civilians and displacing hudreds of thousands by force to steal more land)
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
is Israel stealing land and 80% of Egypts water while bulldozing down or blowing up Egyptian homes, displacing hundreds of thousands of Egyptians by force while killing thousands more? i'd say that has an awful lot to do with it. some act as if the Israeli's are just standing around minding their own business and the crazy arabs just want to kill all of them. defenders of Israel's actions often cry about how Israeli's live in perpetual fear yet your government's own website assures tourists Israel is 1 of the safest countries in the world, which is it??
the violence didn't start until years of brutal occupation and theft of land and resources and being treated like subhumans while starving their children.
you push someone around and act like a bully long enough and someone is going to snap and lash out. it's like a bully that beats kids up for their lunch money and 1 day a kid punches him back so the bully kicks his ass even harder...you are saying that ass kicking was justified, if the stupid kid had just given his lunch money up without a fight it wouldn't have happened....give me a fucking break
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'