a look back at Israel's criminal acts last year

Anon

Pepe Silvia wrote:

JB811 wrote:

I find it hard to defend a person that plants a bomb on a civilian bus. But hey that's just me.

are you implying the 1300+ people killed were all guilty of this?

***yawn***

I'm not getting drawn into your pissing matches. See I really don't care about either Israel or the Palestinians very much, they are BOTH guilty. Until they both agree to get along nothing will change, so for now just continue to point fingers.

And since someone had to mention how much money the US gives to Israel go check and see how much we give in aid to the other side.

fuck

JB811 wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

JB811 wrote:

I find it hard to defend a person that plants a bomb on a civilian bus. But hey that's just me.

are you implying the 1300+ people killed were all guilty of this?

***yawn***

I'm not getting drawn into your pissing matches. See I really don't care about either Israel or the Palestinians very much, they are BOTH guilty. Until they both agree to get along nothing will change, so for now just continue to point fingers.

glad to see the death of 1300 people, including hundreds of women and children, makes you yawn. tell me, did 9/11 make you yawn? probably not. it's only sad when Americans die, but when Palestinians die... ***yawn***

and how are they both guilty? why do so many people love to make this stupid general statement without actually providing any evidence? what are the Palestinians guilty of? retaliating? during the Algerian revolution, were the Algerians also guilty for rebelling against french occupation? or the french during the Nazi occupation of france? why can't people just see this conflict as it is: a one-sided occupation that could end if people could stop providing excuses to let Israel do what they want. If people just held Israel responsible for its crimes, this conflict would end. stop placing the same amount of responsibility on the Palestinians, it does not work that way.

And since someone had to mention how much money the US gives to Israel go check and see how much we give in aid to the other side.

ok.

http://ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

concertaholicshirt

TriumphantAngel & _outlaw: Thank you so much for the patronizing comments laced with sarcasm. It so makes me want to make the effort have a meaningful discourse with you. It's especially touching that you notice the part where I make it clear that I have no use for sycophants of zionism either. Good stuff.

TriumphantAngel

concertaholicshirt wrote:

TriumphantAngel & _outlaw: Thank you so much for the patronizing comments laced with sarcasm. It so makes me want to make the effort have a meaningful discourse with you. It's especially touching that you notice the part where I make it clear that I have no use for sycophants of zionism either. Good stuff.

:?
my post didn't have patronizing comments laced with sarcasm. you said found it interesting that the pro-Palestinian folks here only see things one sided, and i was giving thoughts back to you as to why i feel it is so one sided and i did it without sarcasm. asking how you would feel to the examples i gave is not patronizing, it's a genuine question. you made the comment, i gave examples as to why i feel like i do.

concertaholicshirt wrote:

I find it interesting that clearly altruistic people can see this thing so one sided, and only seem to focus on the transgressions of one group while completely ignoring or rationalizing the brutalities of the other. Not to be coy, I'm primarily referring to the pro-Palestinian folks here, but I feel this just as strongly about many pro-Israeli people who I've met elsewhere.

i see it as one sided because it is. how can you blame both sides equally?

you can't.

there is only one side who is occupying the other. every single one of the Palestinians basic human rights are violated on a daily basis. there is only one side imprisoning the other. locked up like animals, palestinian homes are destroyed to allow illegal Israeli settlements. the UN consistantly condemns the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as illegal. Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are forced to live in apartheid conditions, while the Israeli settlements built on confiscated land separate the Palestinians from each other. all of this is sanctioned and maintained by the US. why? why does the rest of the world condemn the israeli actions, and yet the US refuses to hold Israeli human rights abusers accountable for their actions?

if you were subjected to what they are, every minute of every day, i wonder how long it would take you to retaliate? and for the record, i'm not a lover of Hamas, but at the end of the day, all that talk is just another ploy that the Israelis use to divert attention from their crimes, and try to distract us from the real issues.

Pepe Silvia

JB811 wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

JB811 wrote:

I find it hard to defend a person that plants a bomb on a civilian bus. But hey that's just me.

are you implying the 1300+ people killed were all guilty of this?

***yawn***

I'm not getting drawn into your pissing matches. See I really don't care about either Israel or the Palestinians very much, they are BOTH guilty. Until they both agree to get along nothing will change, so for now just continue to point fingers.

And since someone had to mention how much money the US gives to Israel go check and see how much we give in aid to the other side.

it's not a pissing match, i'm trying to understand your point....i started a thread about the innocent large number of civilians killed and you replied it was hard to defend someone who plants a bomb on a bus....so what you're saying is this veeeeeeery small % makes you yawn and not care about over 1,000 killed? no one would be left alive if we used that logic and ratios.

Pepe Silvia

concertaholicshirt wrote:

TriumphantAngel & _outlaw: Thank you so much for the patronizing comments laced with sarcasm. It so makes me want to make the effort have a meaningful discourse with you. It's especially touching that you notice the part where I make it clear that I have no use for sycophants of zionism either. Good stuff.

is there a reason why you didn't reply to my post and questions??

gimmesometruth27

it is refreshing to see debate from so many posters from different countries in this thread. there are a few americans on the moving train that tell those from other countries that they can not comment on the US, its actions and foreign policy, and its culture because they "are not from here"... but these people are absent from threads concerning other countries and their conflicts....i wonder why that is...i have always invited those from other countries to contribute to all debates on here so its cool to see it here. i support the people of palestine in this particular conflict but i have learned things from all sides in this thread. keep it up everyone

Byrnzie

rafie wrote:

The U.N. decision on the 29th of November 1947 offered the solution of 2 states for 2 people. That decision was based on the population spread of both people around the land at the time, having Jerusalem as an international zone. The Jewish leadership at the time were willing to accept that offer even though it would have left Israel at a military disadvantage (the jews would be on the low land while the arabs would be on the high land). The arab leadership at the time declined the offer and instead started war with the jewish community (there was still not a state of Israel) which lasted over a year. In this war, The jews were attacked by numerous arab countries at all borders. As far as the arabs were concerned, the goal of that war was to eliminate the jewish settlement in the middle east. 1% of the entire jewish population in Israel was killed during that war and Israel was founded during that war. When the cease fire was signed and borders were drawn, the west bank was declared part of Jordan.

Here's a different take on what happened - You ever seen the movie 'Rashomon'?

'The truth is that by May 1948 Zionist forces had already invaded and occupied large parts of the land which had been allocated to the Palestinians by the UN Partition Plan. In January 1948 Israel did not yet exist.

The evidence that Israel started the 1948 war comes from Zionist sources. The History of the Palmach which was released in portions in the 1950s (and in full in 1972) details the efforts made to attack the Palestinian Arabs and secure more territory than alloted to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan (Kibbutz Menchad Archive, Palmach Archive, Efal, Israel).

Already, Zionist forces were implementing their "Plan Dalet" to "control the area given to us [the Zionists] by the U.N. in addition to areas occupied by Arabs which were outside these borders and the setting up of forces to counter the possible invasion of Arab armies after May 15" (Qurvot 1948, p. 16, which covers the operations of Haganah and Palmach, see also Ha Sepher Ha Palmach, The Book of Palmach).

1. Operation Nachson, 1 April 1948
2. Operation Harel, 15 April 1948
3. Operation Misparayim, 21 April 1948
4. Operation Chametz, 27 April 1948
5. Operation Jevuss, 27 April 1948
6. Operation Yiftach, 28 April 1948
7. Operation Matateh, 3 May 1948
8. Operation Maccabi, 7 May 1948

9. Operation Gideon, 11 May 1948
10. Operation Barak, 12 May 1948
11. Operation Ben Ami, 14 May 1948
12. Operation Pitchfork, 14 May 1948
13. Operation Schfifon, 14 May 1948

The operations 1-8 indicate operations carried out before the entry of the Arab forces inside the areas allotted by the UN to the Arab state. It has to be noted that of thirteen specific full-scale operations
under Plan Dalet eight were carried out outside the area "given" by the UN to the Zionists.

Following is a list drawn from the New York Times of the major military operations the Zionists mounted before the British evacuated Palestine and before the Arab forces entered Palestine:

· Qazaza (21 Dec. 1947)
· Sa'sa (16 Feb. 1948)
· Haifa (21 Feb. 1948)
· Salameh (1 March 1948)
· Biyar Adas (6 March 1948)
· Qana (13 March 1948)
· Qastal (4 April 1948)
· Deir Yassin (9 April 1948)
· Lajjun (15 April 1948)
· Saris (17 April 1948)
· Tiberias (20 April 1948)
· Haifa (22 April 1948)
· Jerusalem (25 April 1948)
· Jaffa (26 April 1948)
· Acre (27 April 1948)
· Jerusalem (1 May 1948)
· Safad (7 May 1948)
· Beisan (9 May 1948).

David Ben-Gurion confirms this in an address delivered to American Zionists in Jerusalem on 3 September 1950:

"Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad" (Ben-Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (N.Y.: Philosophical Library, 1954, p. 530).

Although late PM Ben-Gurion speaks of "liberating" Jaffa it was alloted to the Palestinians by the UN Partition Plan.

Late PM Menachem Begin adds:

"In the months preceding the Arab invasion, and while the five Arab states were conducting preparations, we continued to make sallies into Arab territory. The conquest of Jaffa stands out as an event of first-rate importance in the struggle for Hebrew independence early in May, on the eve [that is, before the alleged Arab invasion] of the invasion by the five Arab states" (Menachem Begin, The Revolt, Nash, 1972, p. 348)

On 12 December 1948 David Ben Gurion confirmed the fact that the Zionists started the war in 1948:

"As April began, our War of Independence swung decisively from defense to attack. Operation 'Nachson'...was launched with the capture of Arab Hulda near where we stand today and of Deir Muheisin and culminated in
the storming of Qastel, the great hill fortress near Jerusalem" (Ben Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (N.Y.: Philosophical Library, 1954, p. 106).

Israeli historians have themselves refuted the claim that the Arabs started the 1948 war. Benny Morris uncovered a report from the Israeli Defense Force Intelligence Branch (30 June 1948) that shows a
deliberate Israeli policy to attack the Arabs should they resist and expel the Palestinians (Benny Morris, "The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: the Israel Defense Forces Intelligence Branch Analysis of June 1948", Middle Eastern Studies, XXII, January 1986, pp. 5-19).

Conclusion:

In sum, it is not true that the Arabs "invaded Israel" in 1948. First, Israel did not exist at the time of the alleged invasion as an established state with recognised bounderies. When the Zionist leaders established Israel on 15 May 1948 they purposely declined to declare the bounderies of the new state in order to allow for future expansion.

Secondly, the only territory to which the new state of Israel had even a remote claim was that alloted to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan. But the Zionists had already attacked areas that were alloted to the Palestinian Arab state.

Thirdly, those areas which the Arab states purportedly "invaded" were, in fact, exclusively areas alloted to the Palestinian Arab state proposed by the UN Partition Plan. The so-called Arab invasion was a defensive attempt to hold on to the areas alloted by the Partition Plan for the Palestinian state.

Finally, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, was under orders not to enter the areas alloted to the Jewish state (Sir John Bagot Glubb, "The Battle for Jerusalem", Middle East International, May 1973).

ogre1213

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj

good read...

concertaholicshirt

TriumphantAngel wrote:

my post didn't have patronizing comments laced with sarcasm.

As far as the sarcasm, you are correct. I came very close to editing things while reviewing it after I posted and making it clear that the "sarcasm' comment was really directed at _outlaw. Sorry for not following through and clarifying; that's a fair objection on your part. However, intended or not, your post came off as very patronizing. I know the travesties of Israel, and don't need yet another recitation of them. What I won't do is give the LONG list of Palestinian travesties to go tit-for-tat. It takes two to tango... that was my point, and you completely dismiss it with the lecture on how bad Israel is with no consideration of what they've endured. It's perfectly legitimate to debate that you think there is no comparison in the severity, but the problem I see from BOTH sides is a refusal to give weight to the atrocities of the people they support. You said, "i wonder how long it would take you to retaliate?," but I see it as just a vicious cycle of retaliations of one side against the other. When all is said and done, you and I debating here is neither going to solve the problem, nor is it likely to result in one of us changing the opinion of things, but I do get frustrated when I see things portrayed in such a way by someone who, when all is said and done, would probably prefer to live under Israeli control than Palestinian rule. I'm just sayin'.

Pepe Silvia wrote:

is there a reason why you didn't reply to my post and questions??

Because I didn't, and still don't, see any addressed to me. Please point out if I missed them.

Pepe Silvia

concertaholicshirt wrote:

It takes two to tango... that was my point, and you completely dismiss it with the lecture on how bad Israel is with no consideration of what they've endured.

it only takes 1 to brutally occupy and repress a people.

what they have endured??? most of the attacks against Israeli's happen on land Israel stole. land Israel bulldozed down Palestinian homes and built their illegal settlements!

if i go to my neighbors house and say it's mine now and try to take it by force and he shoots me am i innocent? can i use as my defense how i had to endure being shot while trying to steal his land, land the UN has told me i must leave??

if Mexico was doing this in parts of Texas or California i'm pretty sure americans would react far more violently than the Palestinians have

you can't be a dick then cry that people don't like you when it's mostly your own damn fault for being such a bully and a prick. Israel (and by that i mean the government, not the populace, though it does apply to many of them) isn't interested in peace. their goal has always been to take as much land as they could. even Ben Gurion admitted this

dimitrispearljam

a gunshot..a man dies....his blood is dark red,the smell so bad,the feelings deep,his family feel the pain...
u name the nacionality,his God,his believes,his skin,..the result is the same......1 dies..1300 dies is sad...
must stop.all the other info and opinion is good for keep this thread and hate on

Pepe Silvia

dimitrispearljam wrote:

a gunshot..a man dies....his blood is dark red,the smell so bad,the feelings deep,his family feel the pain...
u name the nacionality,his God,his believes,his skin,..the result is the same......1 dies..1300 dies is sad...
must stop.all the other info and opinion is good for keep this thread and hate on

what else are the Palestinians expected to give up for peace? they have nothing! they'v elived under this brutality for decades, things like that tend to stick in your craw and piss people off. i'm not saying it's right but what we have here is Israel with their boot heels on the neck of the Palestinians while the Palestinians, scared and abused, are kicking and hitting trying to stop the beating from Israel....

i really think if Israel stopped stealing land and water and stopped using methods they claimed the British used which only led to jewish terrosim against their British occupiers. if they stopped their theft and brutality they would have peace, but they won't because their goal has been all along to take as much of the land as they could, they admitted the original plan was just a starting point and they want more and will get it by force if necessary, even Ben Gurion, their first PM wrote this!!

i'm just saying, don't try to steal land from someone by force then cry when they fight back

dimitrispearljam

Pepe Silvia wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

a gunshot..a man dies....his blood is dark red,the smell so bad,the feelings deep,his family feel the pain...
u name the nacionality,his God,his believes,his skin,..the result is the same......1 dies..1300 dies is sad...
must stop.all the other info and opinion is good for keep this thread and hate on

what else are the Palestinians expected to give up for peace? they have nothing! they'v elived under this brutality for decades, things like that tend to stick in your craw and piss people off. i'm not saying it's right but what we have here is Israel with their boot heels on the neck of the Palestinians while the Palestinians, scared and abused, are kicking and hitting trying to stop the beating from Israel....

i really think if Israel stopped stealing land and water and stopped using methods they claimed the British used which only led to jewish terrosim against their British occupiers. if they stopped their theft and brutality they would have peace, but they won't because their goal has been all along to take as much of the land as they could, they admitted the original plan was just a starting point and they have more and will get it by force if necessary, even Ben Gurion, their first PM wrote this!!

i'm just saying, don't try to steal land from someone by force then cry when they fight back

and only israelians in the history of world do that!!!!the one who has power use it,,from great alexander till now

Pepe Silvia

dimitrispearljam wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

a gunshot..a man dies....his blood is dark red,the smell so bad,the feelings deep,his family feel the pain...
u name the nacionality,his God,his believes,his skin,..the result is the same......1 dies..1300 dies is sad...
must stop.all the other info and opinion is good for keep this thread and hate on

what else are the Palestinians expected to give up for peace? they have nothing! they'v elived under this brutality for decades, things like that tend to stick in your craw and piss people off. i'm not saying it's right but what we have here is Israel with their boot heels on the neck of the Palestinians while the Palestinians, scared and abused, are kicking and hitting trying to stop the beating from Israel....

i really think if Israel stopped stealing land and water and stopped using methods they claimed the British used which only led to jewish terrosim against their British occupiers. if they stopped their theft and brutality they would have peace, but they won't because their goal has been all along to take as much of the land as they could, they admitted the original plan was just a starting point and they want more and will get it by force if necessary, even Ben Gurion, their first PM wrote this!!

i'm just saying, don't try to steal land from someone by force then cry when they fight back

and only israelians in the history of world do that!!!!the one who has power use it,,from great alexander till now

granted, however this is NOT a thread about Alexander or anyone else, it's about the massacre of 1,300-1,400 Palestinians a year ago by the Israelis, whether or not anyone else has done similar things throughout history is rather irrelevant

fuck

dimitrispearljam wrote:

a gunshot..a man dies....his blood is dark red,the smell so bad,the feelings deep,his family feel the pain...
u name the nacionality,his God,his believes,his skin,..the result is the same......1 dies..1300 dies is sad...
must stop.all the other info and opinion is good for keep this thread and hate on

look, no one in this thread is advocating the death of more people. everyone always claims to want the same thing: peace. the point is, some of us see that the only way to do this is for Israel to cease its occupation and to stop its oppression of the Palestinians. Only then is peace attainable. However, when everyone starts to pretend or even imply that this is an equally balanced conflict, then it is difficult to resolve because Israel will continue to make up excuses for its "retaliations" (or, in real terms, destruction of a people) and everyone will continue to stand by idly while more Palestinians are killed or tortured, treated inhumanely, and given barely any means to survive.

If people truly want peace, then start holding Israel responsible for this conflict. The Palestinians' resistance movements are just a sideshow - a means of the Palestinians trying to retaliate, but clearly Israel has the upper hand and the Palestinians are unable to sway the 5th largest military in the world with rocket attacks, so can people stop trying to balance these two and start holding the occupier responsible?

Anon

Pepe Silvia wrote:

it's not a pissing match, i'm trying to understand your point....i started a thread about the innocent large number of civilians killed and you replied it was hard to defend someone who plants a bomb on a bus....so what you're saying is this veeeeeeery small % makes you yawn and not care about over 1,000 killed? no one would be left alive if we used that logic and ratios.

What makes me yawn is the same old story back and forth. It is like watching a tennis match or two brothers continuing to argue about the same thing all of the time. It gets old. Neither side really seems to want peace, both are to blame.

Do I sympathize with the Palestinians? Yeah I do a little bit. But I think the Jews should someday be able to catch a break somewhere. I'm sure it gets old that all of your neighbors want you dead, and not just because of this 'occupation'. I think the Jews may be the most persecuted group, ever.

Either way until the finger pointing stops and they agree to a real peace agreement you will never see the end to the fighting.

Anon

Pepe Silvia wrote:

if Mexico was doing this in parts of Texas or California i'm pretty sure americans would react far more violently than the Palestinians have

The invasion of California and Texas has been happening for years and is spreading throughout the country. The plague will continue since this administration is going to grant amnesty to 12 million criminals. But that is another topic.

gimmesometruth27

JB811 wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

if Mexico was doing this in parts of Texas or California i'm pretty sure americans would react far more violently than the Palestinians have

The invasion of California and Texas has been happening for years and is spreading throughout the country. The plague will continue since this administration is going to grant amnesty to 12 million criminals. But that is another topic.

oh is that a fact? what legislation is going to grant amnesty to 12 million criminals?? not the healthcare bill that's for sure.

Anon

Watch what comes next after this healthcare is rammed home.