I am not reading all the replies but I will say this the "I was here first" argument is one the dumbest things I have ever heard in my life. Who gives a fuck if "your" people where there 4000 years ago. If this is ever going to be settled thats what people have to start thinking.
What about the Palestinians that were there 60 years ago? What about those grandparents who were kicked out of their homes by Zionist terrorist organizations? Is that a dumb argument?
You don't see Israel and Egypt firring rockets at each other, why because they have a peace agreement that both countries follow.
what does this have to do with anything? Should Israel feel proud that they are working with one of the most brutal dictatorial regimes to further oppress the Palestinians?
You have to understand Israel doesn't take crap...they really believe whatever you do us we will do you 10x worse. While that may not be the best attitude it comes from having your malls and buses being blown up.
Tell me, when was the first bus blown up? Secondly, how many buses were blown up?
Now, why don't you look up when Israel began occupying and oppressing Palestinians, why don't you look at how many palestinian homes were bulldozed, how many children and people were killed, etc. This was all long before a suicide bombing, in fact, DECADES before. So nothing that Israel does "comes from" ANYTHING the Palestinians do, but rather from a racist, Zionist doctrine.
Also you have to remember that Hamas is really an extension of Iran ( as some would argue that Israel in an extension of the US).
Israel is not an extension of the US and Hamas is not an extension of Iran. Just because they may receive support does not make them "extensions." And what is the point here? We should feel glad that Israel is only terrorizing the Palestinians in Gaza and say "atleast they aren't going to war with Iran (yet), so let's just let them do what they want to the innocent people in Gaza."
The next point is that I do believe most people in Israel would support a two state solution ( not sure why Israel needs to approve, can't they just be like OK this shit hole is now a state?) I mean for the most part they pretty much are. However their government ( currently a terrorist organization) is failing people,
perhaps if they had used money for something other the buying and firing rockets then maybe the condition would be better.
Israel does not want a Palestinian state because it would mean sacrificing the West Bank. Their core belief, the religious, racist doctrine of one Jewish state includes the West Bank and they will continue their occupation until they have it.
Also, Hamas is certainly corrupt, but what could they use their money for? Even if they bought goods, Israel and Egypt, who is collaborating with Israel, would not let anything past the border, so the argument falls flat because of Israel's inhumane blockade against the innocent people of Gaza.
The key they need to stop and Israel will stop and why is that is because Israel attacks are reactions to their attacks. While things might not improve very quickly if they showed that they didn't run to rockets I am willing to bet in time Israel would relax restrictions until the border was barely guarded.
As Byrnzie pointed out, Hamas and Israel entered a ceasefire in June 2008. Israel broke that ceasefire in November when they raided Gaza and killed 6 Palestinians. Furthermore, Israel's massacre of Gaza has already been proven to have been planned as early as March 2008, which means that even though Israel entered a ceasefire with Hamas in June, it was always planning a massive attack that would result in war crimes and crimes against humanity, as was documented by the UN Goldstone Report. Also, part of the ceasefire agreement was that Israel would relax its border restrictions, however Israel did not do that even though Hamas held its end by stopping all rocket attacks.
the violence didn't start until years of brutal occupation...
I don't know whether to or after reading that. Guess I'll settle on :roll:
do you not believe that? tell me, what do you know of the first terrorist organizations in Palestine - that is, the Zionist terror organizations, who were the first ones to bomb cafes, buses, market places, hotels, etc, before the PLO, before Hamas, before any Palestinian nationalist group took on armed struggle against Israeli occupiers in an official form. There were Zionist groups before all that. Just because they operate under the IDF now does not mean they don't exist anymore.
if you disagree with the comment, why don't you just use facts to dispute it rather than write such a stupid post.
the violence didn't start until years of brutal occupation...
I don't know whether to or after reading that. Guess I'll settle on :roll:
do you not believe that? tell me, what do you know of the first terrorist organizations in Palestine - that is, the Zionist terror organizations, who were the first ones to bomb cafes, buses, market places, hotels, etc, before the PLO, before Hamas, before any Palestinian nationalist group took on armed struggle against Israeli occupiers in an official form. There were Zionist groups before all that. Just because they operate under the IDF now does not mean they don't exist anymore.
if you disagree with the comment, why don't you just use facts to dispute it rather than write such a stupid post.
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
tell me, what do you know of the first terrorist organizations in Palestine...
Spare me the lecture. I'd be comfortable wagering that I've forgotten more than you've ever known about the history of terrorism OF BOTH SIDES in that area.
...that is, the Zionist terror organizations, who were the first ones to bomb cafes, buses, market places, hotels, etc, before the PLO, before Hamas, before any Palestinian nationalist group took on armed struggle against Israeli occupiers in an official form.
As to one of your points, sure... because the concept of a Palestinian nation hadn't been thought up yet. There never had been an official independent nation of Palestine prior to the UN establishing Israel, so it wasn't 'Palestinian nationalist group(s)" committing the atrocities. That said, you are woefully uninformed (or something more nefarious) if you are saying that there weren't two sides committing atrocities from Day 1.
if you disagree with the comment, why don't you just use facts to dispute it rather than write such a stupid post.
Because I've had this debate with people like you (from both sides of the issue) way too many times over the years. And, to be clear, by "people like you", I mean people who ignore the history of what occurred and only cite the atrocities of those who they are against. I see no need to waste time citing all sorts of atrocities from the Arab side from Day 1 because you are both dismissive and nasty to me without provocation, and have already shown that you'll either ignore facts and or rationalize away the crimes of the side you support.
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~~~~~~~
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Spare me the lecture. I'd be comfortable wagering that I've forgotten more than you've ever known about the history of terrorism OF BOTH SIDES in that area....
ok, so now you have dazzled us all with your brilliance, are you going to answer his question or not?
tell me, what do you know of the first terrorist organizations in Palestine...
Spare me the lecture. I'd be comfortable wagering that I've forgotten more than you've ever known about the history of terrorism OF BOTH SIDES in that area.
well then you're a moron for ever making that assumption because even I would never make an assumption like that.
...that is, the Zionist terror organizations, who were the first ones to bomb cafes, buses, market places, hotels, etc, before the PLO, before Hamas, before any Palestinian nationalist group took on armed struggle against Israeli occupiers in an official form.
As to one of your points, sure... because the concept of a Palestinian nation hadn't been thought up yet. There never had been an official independent nation of Palestine prior to the UN establishing Israel, so it wasn't 'Palestinian nationalist group(s)" committing the atrocities.
these two sentences are not related in any way, and I hope they were intended that way, though judging by the fact that you wrote them right after one another, I either assume that you think they are connected or you just jump from one point to another without defending any.
in the first sentence you suggest that a concept of a Palestinian state had not been thought up by that time, which is around the 1930s. that's a stupid assumption. there is ample evidence to suggest that for one, the people of the country had thought of themselves as Palestinian, even under Ottoman Rule, and especially under British rule. for more information on this, feel free to check out the respective works of Neville Mandel and Yehoshua Porath.
the second sentence you say there had never been an official independent nation of Palestine prior to the UN establishing Israel. for one, let's be clear: your definition of 'official' here is only that you mean a nation recognized by Western powers. Just because Western powers did not recognize a Palestinian state does not mean that there were no attempts at founding the state that went unrecognized. further, it's hilarious how the same people who try to use the fact that the Arabs had rejected the UN proposal of establishing a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli one in 1947 also try to undermine the fact that a Palestinian nationalist movement did exist. the UN proposal is proof of that. just because the Zionists had more political influence and were able to eventually use violence to achieve their aims should not undermine the legitimacy of the Palestinian cause.
That said, you are woefully uninformed (or something more nefarious) if you are saying that there weren't two sides committing atrocities from Day 1.
this both sides argument is tired. the Arab 'atrocities' you are trying to cite from the early days are largely minimal, most of their methods of rebelling were nonviolent. whereas the Zionists achieved their aims largely through violence. for more information, look up the Irgun, the Lehi, etc, and the massacres that were committed. Look up the bombing of the King David Hotel, the Nakba, the countless wars and battles that were fought in the subsequent decades and what led up to them.
if you disagree with the comment, why don't you just use facts to dispute it rather than write such a stupid post.
Because I've had this debate with people like you (from both sides of the issue) way too many times over the years.
I love the 'I have experience' argument. does that excuse you from providing facts all of a sudden? who issued this rule that if you have this argument with people for so long, you can suddenly say whatever you want and it's true?
And, to be clear, by "people like you", I mean people who ignore the history of what occurred and only cite the atrocities of those who they are against.
care to give me an example of where I ignored history?
I see no need to waste time citing all sorts of atrocities from the Arab side from Day 1 because you are both dismissive and nasty to me without provocation, and have already shown that you'll either ignore facts and or rationalize away the crimes of the side you support.
again, please give me one example of where I have ignored facts. also, you keep saying this 'Day 1', what date or time period exactly do you consider Day 1? and no, you don't need to cite atrocities committed by Palestinians, but rather provide some information on what you think about this conflict, backed by facts. every single post you have had in this thread has been nothing but "you people just don't know what's really going on there, you're so blind to real facts, you're so one-sided, I know more, and I don't need to say anything else, but you're wrong." and then you're trying to tell me you don't like how I'm being "nasty" to you? what a pretentious prick.
I don't know whether to or after reading that. Guess I'll settle on :roll:
do you not believe that? tell me, what do you know of the first terrorist organizations in Palestine - that is, the Zionist terror organizations, who were the first ones to bomb cafes, buses, market places, hotels, etc, before the PLO, before Hamas, before any Palestinian nationalist group took on armed struggle against Israeli occupiers in an official form. There were Zionist groups before all that. Just because they operate under the IDF now does not mean they don't exist anymore.
if you disagree with the comment, why don't you just use facts to dispute it rather than write such a stupid post.
Leaders within the mainstream Jewish Agency, Haganah, Histadrut, as well as British authorities, routinely condemned Irgun operations as terrorist and branded it an illegal organization as a result of the group's attacks on civilian targets.[9] However, privately at least the Haganah kept a dialogue with the dissident groups.[58]
In 1948, The New York Times published a letter signed by a number of prominent Jewish figures including Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, Sidney Hook, and Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, which described Irgun as a "a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine".[59][60] The letter went on to state that Irgun and the Stern gang "inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and widespread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute." [12]
Soon after World War II, Winston Churchill said "we should never have stopped immigration before the war", but that the Irgun were "the vilest gangsters" and that he would "never forgive the Irgun terrorists."[10]
A US Military Intelligence report, dated January 1948, described Irgun recruiting tactics amongst Displaced Persons (DP) in the camps across Germany:
'Irgun ... seems to be concentrating on the DP police force. This is an old technique in Eastern Europe and in all police states. By controlling the police, a small, unscrupulous group of determined people can impose its will on a peaceful and inarticulate majority; it is done by threats, intimidation, by violence and if need be bloodshed ... they have embarked upon a course of violence within the camps.'[61]
Clare Hollingworth, the Daily Telegraph and Scotsman correspondent in Jerusalem during 1948 wrote several outspoken reports after spending several weeks in West Jerusalem:
'Irgun is in fact rapidly becoming the 'SS' of the new state. There is also a strong 'Gestapo' - but no-one knows who is in it.'
'The shopkeepers are afraid not so much of shells as of raids by Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang. These young toughs, who are beyond whatever law there is have cleaned out most private houses of the richer classes & started to prey upon the shopkeepers.'
—Clare Hollingworth reporting on West Jerusalem June 2 1948[62][63]
In 2006, Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv at the time, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem at the time, wrote in response to a pro-Irgun commemoration of the King David Hotel bombing:
"We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated." They also called for the removal of plaques at the site which blame the deaths on "ignored warning calls."
The plaques read:
"For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated,” but McDonald and Jenkins asserted that no such warning calls were made, adding that even if they had, "this does not absolve those who planted the bomb from responsibility for the deaths."[7]
Ha'aretz columnist and Israeli historian, Tom Segev, wrote of the Irgun: "In the second half of 1940, a few members of the Irgun Zvai Leumi (National Military Organization) -- the anti-British terrorist group sponsored by the Revisionists and known by its acronym Etzel, and to the British simply as the Irgun -- made contact with representatives of Fascist Italy, offering to cooperate against the British."[11]
Alan Dershowitz wrote in his book The Case for Israel that "[Removal of Arabs] certainly seems to have been the policy of the Irgun".[64]
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Wow... awesome stuff. Pepe, Outlaw and Angel have shown me the error of my ways. Supporters of Israel are evil, and the Palestinians are altruistic lovers of peace. May you one day experience their rule. Thanks for letting me see the light. Peace.
Last Philly Spectrum Show - Halloween 2009
MSG 1 & 2 2010
Montreal 2011
Missoula 2012
Seattle 2013
Denver 2014
Central Park NYC 2015
Sunrise 2016
Wrigley 2 2016 Seattle 1 2018
~~~~~~~
EV NYC 2 2011
RNDM NYC 2012 TOTD SF 2016
Wow... awesome stuff. Pepe, Outlaw and Angel have shown me the error of my ways. Supporters of Israel are evil, and the Palestinians are altruistic lovers of peace. May you one day experience their rule. Thanks for letting me see the light. Peace.
translation = i can't back up anything i've said
Post edited by Pepe Silvia on
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
may you one day experience the brutality and occupation the Israeli's hand out and may your kid be killed by a solider then have their organs harvested without your consent and given to a Palestinian
I wouldn't go quite that far Pepe. :shock:
I thought we'd seen the back of that kind of talk when we saw the back of Jlew.
may you one day experience the brutality and occupation the Israeli's hand out and may your kid be killed by a solider then have their organs harvested without your consent and given to a Palestinian
I wouldn't go quite that far Pepe. :shock:
I thought we'd seen the back of that kind of talk when we saw the back of Jlew.
yes, i suppose it was a tad too far....
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
The invasion of California and Texas has been happening for years and is spreading throughout the country. The plague will continue since this administration is going to grant amnesty to 12 million criminals. But that is another topic.
i think there's a bit of a gap in comparing immigrants coming to america to Israel's brutal occupation and theft of land and water....
also i'm unaware of any amnesty to 12 million criminals
Like I said another topic. Don't confuse immigrants who come here legally and are law-abiding with those that are illegal aliens and are criminals.
and don't confuse someone who came here without going through the proper channels with my point.
how would americans react if Mexicans bulldozed down homes in Texas and California, built their own, put up walls and checkpoints so americans couldn't come back in, stole 80% of the water in those 2 states giving the americans the left over 20%, wouldn't allow things like crayons, asparagus, building supplies to rebuild the homes the Mexican army destroyed or badly damaged....in those 2 states while the majority of american children in those 2 states suffered from acute malnutrition because of these actions of the Mexican government?
i fail to see how that relates to what you are saying. first, not only are there more countries than Mexico from which people come here like that but they don't do these types of things, do they? Is the Mexican or Guatemalan governments doing these types of things in Texas and California?
no, they are not. however, if they did i'm pretty certain americans would be doing a lot more than firing crude home made fireworks that kill no one. even if the US government didn't get involved you know damn well that many americans would be attacking those illegal settlements with a lot more force than the Palestinians have done
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Comments
Now, why don't you look up when Israel began occupying and oppressing Palestinians, why don't you look at how many palestinian homes were bulldozed, how many children and people were killed, etc. This was all long before a suicide bombing, in fact, DECADES before. So nothing that Israel does "comes from" ANYTHING the Palestinians do, but rather from a racist, Zionist doctrine. Israel is not an extension of the US and Hamas is not an extension of Iran. Just because they may receive support does not make them "extensions." And what is the point here? We should feel glad that Israel is only terrorizing the Palestinians in Gaza and say "atleast they aren't going to war with Iran (yet), so let's just let them do what they want to the innocent people in Gaza." Israel does not want a Palestinian state because it would mean sacrificing the West Bank. Their core belief, the religious, racist doctrine of one Jewish state includes the West Bank and they will continue their occupation until they have it.
Also, Hamas is certainly corrupt, but what could they use their money for? Even if they bought goods, Israel and Egypt, who is collaborating with Israel, would not let anything past the border, so the argument falls flat because of Israel's inhumane blockade against the innocent people of Gaza. As Byrnzie pointed out, Hamas and Israel entered a ceasefire in June 2008. Israel broke that ceasefire in November when they raided Gaza and killed 6 Palestinians. Furthermore, Israel's massacre of Gaza has already been proven to have been planned as early as March 2008, which means that even though Israel entered a ceasefire with Hamas in June, it was always planning a massive attack that would result in war crimes and crimes against humanity, as was documented by the UN Goldstone Report. Also, part of the ceasefire agreement was that Israel would relax its border restrictions, however Israel did not do that even though Hamas held its end by stopping all rocket attacks.
Sunday, 27 December 2009
In pictures: Gaza children suffer in wake of conflict
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/8430248.stm
MSG 1 & 2 2010
Montreal 2011
Missoula 2012
Seattle 2013
Denver 2014
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Sunrise 2016
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Seattle 1 2018
~~~~~~~
EV NYC 2 2011
RNDM NYC 2012
TOTD SF 2016
Highlights Of Last Spectrum Show
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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - HST
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if you disagree with the comment, why don't you just use facts to dispute it rather than write such a stupid post.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=113500&start=0
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
MSG 1 & 2 2010
Montreal 2011
Missoula 2012
Seattle 2013
Denver 2014
Central Park NYC 2015
Sunrise 2016
Wrigley 2 2016
Seattle 1 2018
~~~~~~~
EV NYC 2 2011
RNDM NYC 2012
TOTD SF 2016
Highlights Of Last Spectrum Show
Mike DESTROYING in Seattle 2013
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - HST
Instagram (great concert shots of many bands): concertaholic
k.
thanks.
in the first sentence you suggest that a concept of a Palestinian state had not been thought up by that time, which is around the 1930s. that's a stupid assumption. there is ample evidence to suggest that for one, the people of the country had thought of themselves as Palestinian, even under Ottoman Rule, and especially under British rule. for more information on this, feel free to check out the respective works of Neville Mandel and Yehoshua Porath.
the second sentence you say there had never been an official independent nation of Palestine prior to the UN establishing Israel. for one, let's be clear: your definition of 'official' here is only that you mean a nation recognized by Western powers. Just because Western powers did not recognize a Palestinian state does not mean that there were no attempts at founding the state that went unrecognized. further, it's hilarious how the same people who try to use the fact that the Arabs had rejected the UN proposal of establishing a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli one in 1947 also try to undermine the fact that a Palestinian nationalist movement did exist. the UN proposal is proof of that. just because the Zionists had more political influence and were able to eventually use violence to achieve their aims should not undermine the legitimacy of the Palestinian cause. this both sides argument is tired. the Arab 'atrocities' you are trying to cite from the early days are largely minimal, most of their methods of rebelling were nonviolent. whereas the Zionists achieved their aims largely through violence. for more information, look up the Irgun, the Lehi, etc, and the massacres that were committed. Look up the bombing of the King David Hotel, the Nakba, the countless wars and battles that were fought in the subsequent decades and what led up to them. I love the 'I have experience' argument. does that excuse you from providing facts all of a sudden? who issued this rule that if you have this argument with people for so long, you can suddenly say whatever you want and it's true? care to give me an example of where I ignored history? again, please give me one example of where I have ignored facts. also, you keep saying this 'Day 1', what date or time period exactly do you consider Day 1? and no, you don't need to cite atrocities committed by Palestinians, but rather provide some information on what you think about this conflict, backed by facts. every single post you have had in this thread has been nothing but "you people just don't know what's really going on there, you're so blind to real facts, you're so one-sided, I know more, and I don't need to say anything else, but you're wrong." and then you're trying to tell me you don't like how I'm being "nasty" to you? what a pretentious prick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun#Criticism
Criticism
Leaders within the mainstream Jewish Agency, Haganah, Histadrut, as well as British authorities, routinely condemned Irgun operations as terrorist and branded it an illegal organization as a result of the group's attacks on civilian targets.[9] However, privately at least the Haganah kept a dialogue with the dissident groups.[58]
In 1948, The New York Times published a letter signed by a number of prominent Jewish figures including Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, Sidney Hook, and Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, which described Irgun as a "a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine".[59][60] The letter went on to state that Irgun and the Stern gang "inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and widespread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute." [12]
Soon after World War II, Winston Churchill said "we should never have stopped immigration before the war", but that the Irgun were "the vilest gangsters" and that he would "never forgive the Irgun terrorists."[10]
A US Military Intelligence report, dated January 1948, described Irgun recruiting tactics amongst Displaced Persons (DP) in the camps across Germany:
'Irgun ... seems to be concentrating on the DP police force. This is an old technique in Eastern Europe and in all police states. By controlling the police, a small, unscrupulous group of determined people can impose its will on a peaceful and inarticulate majority; it is done by threats, intimidation, by violence and if need be bloodshed ... they have embarked upon a course of violence within the camps.'[61]
Clare Hollingworth, the Daily Telegraph and Scotsman correspondent in Jerusalem during 1948 wrote several outspoken reports after spending several weeks in West Jerusalem:
'Irgun is in fact rapidly becoming the 'SS' of the new state. There is also a strong 'Gestapo' - but no-one knows who is in it.'
'The shopkeepers are afraid not so much of shells as of raids by Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang. These young toughs, who are beyond whatever law there is have cleaned out most private houses of the richer classes & started to prey upon the shopkeepers.'
—Clare Hollingworth reporting on West Jerusalem June 2 1948[62][63]
In 2006, Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv at the time, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem at the time, wrote in response to a pro-Irgun commemoration of the King David Hotel bombing:
"We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated." They also called for the removal of plaques at the site which blame the deaths on "ignored warning calls."
The plaques read:
"For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated,” but McDonald and Jenkins asserted that no such warning calls were made, adding that even if they had, "this does not absolve those who planted the bomb from responsibility for the deaths."[7]
Ha'aretz columnist and Israeli historian, Tom Segev, wrote of the Irgun: "In the second half of 1940, a few members of the Irgun Zvai Leumi (National Military Organization) -- the anti-British terrorist group sponsored by the Revisionists and known by its acronym Etzel, and to the British simply as the Irgun -- made contact with representatives of Fascist Italy, offering to cooperate against the British."[11]
Alan Dershowitz wrote in his book The Case for Israel that "[Removal of Arabs] certainly seems to have been the policy of the Irgun".[64]
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
MSG 1 & 2 2010
Montreal 2011
Missoula 2012
Seattle 2013
Denver 2014
Central Park NYC 2015
Sunrise 2016
Wrigley 2 2016
Seattle 1 2018
~~~~~~~
EV NYC 2 2011
RNDM NYC 2012
TOTD SF 2016
Highlights Of Last Spectrum Show
Mike DESTROYING in Seattle 2013
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - HST
Instagram (great concert shots of many bands): concertaholic
translation = i can't back up anything i've said
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I wouldn't go quite that far Pepe. :shock:
I thought we'd seen the back of that kind of talk when we saw the back of Jlew.
yes, i suppose it was a tad too far....
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
and don't confuse someone who came here without going through the proper channels with my point.
how would americans react if Mexicans bulldozed down homes in Texas and California, built their own, put up walls and checkpoints so americans couldn't come back in, stole 80% of the water in those 2 states giving the americans the left over 20%, wouldn't allow things like crayons, asparagus, building supplies to rebuild the homes the Mexican army destroyed or badly damaged....in those 2 states while the majority of american children in those 2 states suffered from acute malnutrition because of these actions of the Mexican government?
i fail to see how that relates to what you are saying. first, not only are there more countries than Mexico from which people come here like that but they don't do these types of things, do they? Is the Mexican or Guatemalan governments doing these types of things in Texas and California?
no, they are not. however, if they did i'm pretty certain americans would be doing a lot more than firing crude home made fireworks that kill no one. even if the US government didn't get involved you know damn well that many americans would be attacking those illegal settlements with a lot more force than the Palestinians have done
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'