a look back at Israel's criminal acts last year

rafie

SunshineBurn wrote:

"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" -Gandhi

So much pain, so much violence and bloodshed, when will it end? When will we, as a human race, wake up and realize that we are all One connected consciousness? That to hurt, maim, attack, or kill any single piece of the whole is only a self-inflicted abuse? When will we surrender to the infinite power of Love as an answer to our desperate cries for Peace and Harmony?

I don't know... I hope we, as a collective, understand the consequences of our actions soon......

This is the smartest thing that anyone here has said!

concertaholicshirt

I find it interesting that clearly altruistic people can see this thing so one sided, and only seem to focus on the transgressions of one group while completely ignoring or rationalizing the brutalities of the other. Not to be coy, I'm primarily referring to the pro-Palestinian folks here, but I feel this just as strongly about many pro-Israeli people who I've met elsewhere.

Byrnzie

rafie wrote:

The problem with going to the 1967 borders is that "the west bank" was Jordanian territory back then.

Righteo:

http://www.danielpipes.org/298/is-jordan-palestine
'...The sum of this complex tale is that Jordan was part of the Palestine Mandate for a mere eight months, from July 1920 to March 1921. Even that is vitiated by two facts: the League of Nations formally bestowed the mandatory responsibility on Great Britain only in July 1922, making the eight month period legally irrelevant; and the British disposed of almost no authority in Transjordan during those months when they theoretically held it as part of Palestine. In fact, the east bank lacked any ruler; Paris stayed away, London did not seek direct control, and the Hashemites had other priorities. "At that moment," reported Herbert Samuel, the British High Commissioner of Palestine, "Trans-Jordan was left politically derelict."

A few months of rule that was neither de facto nor de jure is hardly reason, seventy years later, to call Jordan a part of Palestine. Besides, it is preposterous to base today's major decisions of war and peace on the transient interests of the British Empire after World War I. That Jordan was briefly part of the Palestine Mandate does not establish a vital link; it merely recalls a historical curiosity. As L. Dean Brown observes, "Jordan is Palestine only in the sense that Nebraska, which was part of the Louisiana Purchase, is still Louisiana."

rafie wrote:

As for stealing more land, Israels borders have gotten smaller since the 1967 war

We're talking about the West Bank and Gaza here, not the handing back of the Sinai which you stole from Egypt in the 1967 war.

rafie wrote:

former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak offered Yassir Arafat over 90% of the west bank during peace talks in the year 2000.

Yeah, sure he did. This is what was offered - it resembles a piece of Swiss cheese: http://www.unitedmethodistdivestment.co ... Israel.jpg



http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e14120.htm
U.S. "Enhancing Terror"

Interview with Noam Chomsky


Noam Chomsky: The Barak proposal in Camp David, the Barak-Clinton proposal, in the United States, I didn't check the Canadian media, in the United States you cannot find a map, which is the most important thing of course, check in Canada, see if you can find a map. You go to Israel, you can find a map, you go to scholarly sources, you can find a map. Here's what you find when you look at a map: You find that this generous, magnanimous proposal provided Israel with a salient east of Jerusalem, which was established primarily by the Labor government, in order to bisect the West Bank. That salient goes almost to Jericho, breaks the West Bank into two cantons, then there's a second salient to the North, going to the Israeli settlement of Ariel, which bisects the Northern part into two cantons.

So, we've got three cantons in the West Bank, virtually separated. All three of them are separated from a small area of East Jerusalem which is the center of Palestinian commercial and cultural life and of communications. So you have four cantons, all separated from the West, from Gaza, so that's five cantons, all surrounded by Israeli settlements, infrastructure, development and so on, which also incidentally guarantee Israel control of the water resources.

This does not rise to the level of South Africa 40 years ago when South Africa established the Bantustans. That's the generous, magnanimous offer. And there's a good reason why maps weren't shown. Because as soon as you look at a map, you see it.

Solomon: All right, but let me just say, Arafat didn't even bother putting a counter-proposal on the table.

Chomsky: Oh, that's not true.

Solomon: They negotiated that afterwards.

Chomsky: That's not true.

Solomon: I guess my question is, if they don't continue to negotiate -

Chomsky: They did. That's false.

Solomon: That's false?

Chomsky: Not only is it false, but not a single participant in the meetings says it. That's a media fabrication . . .

Solomon: That Arafat didn't put a counter-proposal . . .

Chomsky: Yeah, they had a proposal. They proposed the international consensus, which has been accepted by the entire world, the Arab states, the PLO. They proposed a settlement which is in accordance with an overwhelming international consensus, and is blocked by the United States.

Solomon: If you don't talk -

Chomsky: Yeah, they did talk. They talked. They proposed that.

Solomon: Once they walked out of Camp David,

Chomsky: They didn't walk out of Camp David . . .

Solomon: Both camps . . .

Chomsky: No, no, both sides walked out of Camp David.

Solomon: All right, once Camp David disbands, the radicals take over the process, my question is, how do . . .

Chomsky: No, no, the radicals didn't take over the process.

Solomon: You don't think that the Sharon, the right-wing Israeli . . .

Chomsky: No, Barak stayed in power for months. Barak cancelled it. That's how it ended.

Solomon: OK. The problem that people look at now in the Middle East is they say it's spun out of control because the radicals are on both sides now.

Chomsky: No, there's three sides. You're forgetting the United States. The radicals in the United States who have blocked this proposal for 25 years, continue to block it.

Solomon: How do we get back, now, there's so much distrust?

Chomsky: The first way we get back is by trying the experiment of minimal honesty. If we try that experiment of minimal honesty, we look at our own position and we discover what I just described. That for 25 years, the United States has blocked the political settlement, which is supported by the majority of the American population and by the entire world, except for Israel...'

rafie

1) I never said that "Jordan is Palestine", simply because there never was a "Palestinian country". The U.N. decision on the 29th of November 1947 offered the solution of 2 states for 2 people. That decision was based on the population spread of both people around the land at the time, having Jerusalem as an international zone. The Jewish leadership at the time were willing to accept that offer even though it would have left Israel at a military disadvantage (the jews would be on the low land while the arabs would be on the high land). The arab leadership at the time declined the offer and instead started war with the jewish community (there was still not a state of Israel) which lasted over a year. In this war, The jews were attacked by numerous arab countries at all borders. As far as the arabs were concerned, the goal of that war was to eliminate the jewish settlement in the middle east. 1% of the entire jewish population in Israel was killed during that war and Israel was founded during that war. When the cease fire was signed and borders were drawn, the west bank was declared part of Jordan.

2)

Byrnzie wrote:

We're talking about the West Bank and Gaza here, not the handing back of the Sinai which you stole from Egypt in the 1967 war.

I addressed both the west bank and gaza in my previous posts providing facts that on both fronts Israel has unilaterally handed land over to Palestinian control. Besides that, In every war since the dawn of time one of the results is border changes. Sinai was not "stolen", it was won as part of the war and stayed in Israeli hands as part of the cease fire agreement with Egypt

3) You can quote internet sources all day long, but fact is, the people who write the articles (on both sides) are for the most part reporters who have their own agendas and not historians. My arguments here are based on years of academic study (I have a B.A. in Jewish history and am a history teacher) and the fact that I am pretty sure that I am one of the few, if not the only one, in this debate that actually lives in the region and has this conflict as part of my every day life. The Palestinian - Israeli conflict does not have a simple and easy solution. The only way to achieve real and lasting peace is through real peace talks that bind both sides. Israel has already proven in the past that she is ready and willing to make sacrifices for peace, but only if it is a real peace that will not in the future endanger her existence.

badbrains

A history teacher??? U????? Man u have no fucken clue bout ur own so-called country. No such thing as Palestine??? Really??? Open up a bible mr history teacher, does it say the land of Israel or the land of Palestine??? U have no clue bout ur own religion too. Ur own religion states that ur people will never have a country until the messiah returns....am I rite or wrong???? Isn't that what true real Jews believe??? And funny how everything I said bout ur past prime ministers were all terrerists, u remained silent on it..guess the people of israel believe Ariel Sharon is the messiah cuz ur still in the land of the Palestinians...a history teacher??? Wow, I can't imagine the lies and propoganda u have taught and spread. Like I said before, I'll go head to head with u mr teacher about ur so called humane country. What a complete fucken joke. People that do what u and ur idf and ur leaders do like dropping bombs on schools, slapping old palestinian grandmas, kicking little children, shooting humans who carry white flags down, WTF man are u fucken serious??? U wonder why the entire world seems anti-Semitic to ur country, can almost the entire world minus the USA be wrong??? Only reason ur so called country is untouchable is because of ur powerful lobby group. God help u guys if u run out of money but hey it's almost new years and what comes to Israel on new years???-9 BILLION dollars that's 9,000,000,000 from the land of the greed and the home of the slaves....thanx for a great history lesson teach, to bad u have no fucken clue about what it is u teach... Good luck to u

oh and one more thing, what's the name of the trees u guys keep planting everywhere and what's the reasonfor it....I know, do u know???

redrock

rafie wrote:

(I have a B.A. in Jewish history and am a history teacher).

Doesn't mean anything. History is taught the way the country/government, etc. want it taught (at what ever level). You learn what is in your textbooks (sort of). I lived in various countries, and the history of one of them was taught in so many different ways. What is a hero for one country is a vilain in the other.....

badbrains

Here's another history lesson rafie, what did ur IDF do to the USS Liberty??? How come that wasn't taught in history boys and girls of America??? Look for the answers, they're all there, u just have to read between the lines and lies...

Byrnzie

rafie wrote:

The U.N. decision on the 29th of November 1947 offered the solution of 2 states for 2 people. That decision was based on the population spread of both people around the land at the time, having Jerusalem as an international zone. The Jewish leadership at the time were willing to accept that offer even though it would have left Israel at a military disadvantage (the jews would be on the low land while the arabs would be on the high land). The arab leadership at the time declined the offer and instead started war with the jewish community (there was still not a state of Israel) which lasted over a year. In this war, The jews were attacked by numerous arab countries at all borders.

Except it didn't happen quite like that now did it?

The Jewish leadership had no intention of accepting the U.N partition plan. They only agreed to publicly accept it in light of the fact that it had been rejected by the Arabs - and rightly so, considering that the Jews, who owned less than six percent of the land and comprised no more that one-third of the population, were to be given more than half of the overall territory. The fact that the Arabs rejected it gave the Zionist leadership the platform from which to pretend to be in compliance with the U.N, whereas behind the scenes they had already decided upon conquering all of Palestine from the Jordan to the sea.



From Jewish historian Illan Pappe in his book 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine':



The expected Arab and Palestinian rejection of the plan allowed Ben-Gurion and the Zionist leadership to claim that the U.N plan was a dead letter the day it was accepted - apart, of course, from the clauses that recognised the legality of the Jewish state in Palestine. It's borders, given the Palestinian rejection, said Ben-Gurion, 'will be determined by force and not by the partition resolution.' As would be the fate of the Arabs living in it.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

rafie wrote:

I addressed both the west bank and gaza in my previous posts providing facts that on both fronts Israel has unilaterally handed land over to Palestinian control.

Care to provide an example?

rafie wrote:

The Palestinian - Israeli conflict does not have a simple and easy solution.

Yes it does. Israel can begin abiding by international law and the will of the international community - excluding the U.S - and abide by U.N resolution 242.

rafie wrote:

The only way to achieve real and lasting peace is through real peace talks that bind both sides.

These so-called peace talks are just a stalling tactic and have nothing to do wth peace.

An interesting article here from a Jewish Rabbi and journalist on this subject:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-sieg ... ocess-scam
The Great Middle East Peace Process Scam
Henry Siegman - 16 August 2007

'...all previous peace initiatives have got nowhere for a reason that neither Bush nor the EU has had the political courage to acknowledge. That reason is the consensus reached long ago by Israel’s decision-making elites that Israel will never allow the emergence of a Palestinian state which denies it effective military and economic control of the West Bank. To be sure, Israel would allow – indeed, it would insist on – the creation of a number of isolated enclaves that Palestinians could call a state, but only in order to prevent the creation of a binational state in which Palestinians would be the majority.

The Middle East peace process may well be the most spectacular deception in modern diplomatic history. Since the failed Camp David summit of 2000, and actually well before it, Israel’s interest in a peace process – other than for the purpose of obtaining Palestinian and international acceptance of the status quo – has been a fiction that has served primarily to provide cover for its systematic confiscation of Palestinian land and an occupation whose goal, according to the former IDF chief of staff Moshe Ya’alon, is ‘to sear deep into the consciousness of Palestinians that they are a defeated people’. In his reluctant embrace of the Oslo Accords, and his distaste for the settlers, Yitzhak Rabin may have been the exception to this, but even he did not entertain a return of Palestinian territory beyond the so-called Allon Plan, which allowed Israel to retain the Jordan Valley and other parts of the West Bank...'

he still stands

SunshineBurn wrote:

"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" -Gandhi

So much pain, so much violence and bloodshed, when will it end? When will we, as a human race, wake up and realize that we are all One connected consciousness? That to hurt, maim, attack, or kill any single piece of the whole is only a self-inflicted abuse? When will we surrender to the infinite power of Love as an answer to our desperate cries for Peace and Harmony?

I don't know... I hope we, as a collective, understand the consequences of our actions soon......

I think humans are evolving extremely fast with the explosion of technology, ability to know anything anytime with a click of a button, ability to travel anywhere on the planet, exploration of the massive (universe) and tiny (atom) which leads us to conclusions that prove what you say about our "connected consciousness."

Some people feel incredibly moved by what you say and know it is true. Some people read it and call you a 'hippy' or just dismiss it as new-age jibberish.

Maybe our rapid evolution will lead to the enlightenment that you describe - to be known by every single person. An evolution purely of the mind and spirit. Peace.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic...

Part of me wants to think that is what 2012 is... the end of the world as we know it but a transcendence to a higher state of consciousness as a life form.

I'll keep dreaming...

(edit): my attempt to describe this is like using a screwdriver to cut roast beef.

badbrains

Sounds like sunshines been reading some David icke

he still stands

badbrains wrote:

Sounds like sunshines been reading some David icke

Part of me thinks that David Icke is the result of a fairly ignorant man doing acid too many times.

Paraphrasing Robert A. Wilson -- The world is getting smaller yet more unpredictable, information flow is accelerating, and this all looks spooky to people. (the unpredictable tends to spook all mammals). Unable to grasp what is happening, most people look around for some "Evil Force" to blame. This Evil Force - conspiracy theories - will continue to proliferate as long as information and novelty accelerates faster and faster without an inclusion of general education in that information acceleration. Then we'll have more understanding (science) and less demonology (conspiracy theories).

Pepe Silvia

JB811 wrote:

I find it hard to defend a person that plants a bomb on a civilian bus. But hey that's just me.

are you implying the 1300+ people killed were all guilty of this?

Pepe Silvia

rafie wrote:

Just wondering why all the people crying out about Israel attacking in Gaza never seem to remember the fact that what provoked the attack was 7 years of rocket attacks from Gaza by the Hamas towards civilians all over the southern part of Israel. Over 1 million Israelis lived in fear for 7 years that a rocket would fall on their house. Tens of thousands of children grew up with the sounds of sirens warning them that a rocket was about to hit, schools and day care centers being bombarded by tens of thousands of rockets, mortars and missiles every year. Fact is, since the military opperation in Gaza, over a million Israelis have gone back to living real life without constant fear of being attacked. How would you want your country to respond if your neighbors shot missiles at you every day?
As for the loss of life on the Palestinian side, of course there will casualties of innocent civilians and children. That is what happens when the terrorists set up operations from a school playground, mosque and crowded civilian areas.
Israel is perhaps the most humane army in the world. As someone who actively serves in reserve duty every year, I have witnessed soldiers getting attacked or worse because they wanted to help the Palestinians that they came in contact with.


One more reminder in case anyone forgot, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza entirely over 5 years ago leaving no civilian or military presence in the area. The Hamas party was elected by the citizens of Gaza to be their leaders, but instead of concentrating their efforts towards helping the poor and hungry living there, they focus on attacking Israel.

I know that no matter what they hear, the antisemitic hate mongers in the world will continue to bash Israel for trying to protect her citizens from unprovoked terrorist attacks, but If you are going to insult, slander and attack people for not agreeing with you saying that they are "not informed of the facts", you should at least recognize that there are 2 sides in every story and know them both.

in fear? really??

http://info.jpost.com/1999/Supplements/ ... front2.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbuTzd0V ... r_embedded

from the Israeli Ministry of Tourism:
http://www.goisrael.com/Tourism_Eng/Tou ... .%20SAFETY

Is it safe to travel to Israel?

Israel is an extremely safe country to visit and to tour. In 2008, three million tourists came to Israel, an all-time record, and all three million went home again safe and sound. We would not encourage tourists to come if we felt they would be in the slightest danger.

if what you're saying is correct then wouldn't you say the government of Istael is being pretty irresponsible and lying?

while i'm not defending violence isn't it true the majority of rocket attacks happen at illegal settlements and areas that used to be Palestinian towns until the IDF bulldozed them down and built an illegal settlement on top of it?

stop taking land that is not yours and stop expanding the illegal settlements you already have, actually, just go back to your accepted borders.

and while you're at it stop taking 80% of the water and giving the Palestinians only 20%, stop uprooting their olive tree and other groves, stop the blockades, stop the violence and abuse from illegal settlers and most of all stop pretending like you've done everything you can and have no idea why there is violence, stop taking land that doesn't belong to you!

what you did in Gaza is disgraceful, you should be ashamed, they went after EVERYONE

TriumphantAngel

concertaholicshirt wrote:

I find it interesting that clearly altruistic people can see this thing so one sided, and only seem to focus on the transgressions of one group while completely ignoring or rationalizing the brutalities of the other. Not to be coy, I'm primarily referring to the pro-Palestinian folks here, but I feel this just as strongly about many pro-Israeli people who I've met elsewhere.

i see it as one sided because it is. how can you blame both sides equally?

you can't.

there is only one side who is occupying the other. every single one of the Palestinians basic human rights are violated on a daily basis. there is only one side imprisoning the other. locked up like animals, palestinian homes are destroyed to allow illegal Israeli settlements. the UN consistantly condemns the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as illegal. Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are forced to live in apartheid conditions, while the Israeli settlements built on confiscated land separate the Palestinians from each other. all of this is sanctioned and maintained by the US. why? why does the rest of the world condemn the israeli actions, and yet the US refuses to hold Israeli human rights abusers accountable for their actions?

if you were subjected to what they are, every minute of every day, i wonder how long it would take you to retaliate? and for the record, i'm not a lover of Hamas, but at the end of the day, all that talk is just another ploy that the Israelis use to divert attention from their crimes, and try to distract us from the real issues.

TriumphantAngel

Pepe Silvia wrote:

stop taking land that is not yours and stop expanding the illegal settlements you already have, actually, just go back to your accepted borders.

and while you're at it stop taking 80% of the water and giving the Palestinians only 20%, stop uprooting their olive tree and other groves, stop the blockades, stop the violence and abuse from illegal settlers and most of all stop pretending like you've done everything you can and have no idea why there is violence, stop taking land that doesn't belong to you!

what you did in Gaza is disgraceful, you should be ashamed, they went after EVERYONE

the end.

fuck

concertaholicshirt wrote:

I find it interesting that clearly altruistic people can see this thing so one sided, and only seem to focus on the transgressions of one group while completely ignoring or rationalizing the brutalities of the other. Not to be coy, I'm primarily referring to the pro-Palestinian folks here, but I feel this just as strongly about many pro-Israeli people who I've met elsewhere.

educate me, o knowledgeable one, on how this is not a one-sided conflict. please, provide me the links and information on how the Palestinians have been imprisoning and torturing the Israelis. show me a picture of a Palestinian F-16, or any information regarding the well-known Palestinian nuclear missile program. perhaps you can guide me to the information on how the Palestinians have been building illegal homes on Israeli land, and how the Palestinians have been burning Israeli land, stealing water, poisoning water, and massacring Israelis by the thousands. Killing Israeli children by the hundreds in a matter of a couple weeks. perhaps you can show me some statistics regarding the malnourished Israelis, and the unemployment rates of the Israelis, which are probably over 60%, whereas the Palestinians have only a 7% unemployment rate, of course. And who can forget the Israelis living in refugee camps, oh those poor, poor Israelis! Their houses just piling on top of each other, living as a displaced people for decades, and those fucking Palestinians think they're so powerful, they drive their Palestinian tanks straight into the refugee camps! Please, concertaholic, teach me, take me as your pupil and show me the ways of how to see things clearly. I've been blinded by the Palestinian propaganda and am in dire need of being guided towards the truth before it engulfs me completely!

SunshineBurn

I'll keep dreaming...

We may be dreamers friend, but we're not the only ones

Pepe Silvia

SunshineBurn wrote:

I'll keep dreaming...

We may be dreamers friend, but we're not the only ones

we are infinite potential

SunshineBurn

Pepe Silvia wrote:

SunshineBurn wrote:

I'll keep dreaming...

We may be dreamers friend, but we're not the only ones

we are infinite potential

we are

Byrnzie

Pepe Silvia wrote:

in fear? really??

http://info.jpost.com/1999/Supplements/ ... front2.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbuTzd0V ... r_embedded

from the Israeli Ministry of Tourism:
http://www.goisrael.com/Tourism_Eng/Tou ... .%20SAFETY

Is it safe to travel to Israel?

Israel is an extremely safe country to visit and to tour. In 2008, three million tourists came to Israel, an all-time record, and all three million went home again safe and sound. We would not encourage tourists to come if we felt they would be in the slightest danger.

if what you're saying is correct then wouldn't you say the government of Istael is being pretty irresponsible and lying?

while i'm not defending violence isn't it true the majority of rocket attacks happen at illegal settlements and areas that used to be Palestinian towns until the IDF bulldozed them down and built an illegal settlement on top of it?

stop taking land that is not yours and stop expanding the illegal settlements you already have, actually, just go back to your accepted borders.

and while you're at it stop taking 80% of the water and giving the Palestinians only 20%, stop uprooting their olive tree and other groves, stop the blockades, stop the violence and abuse from illegal settlers and most of all stop pretending like you've done everything you can and have no idea why there is violence, stop taking land that doesn't belong to you!

what you did in Gaza is disgraceful, you should be ashamed, they went after EVERYONE

Well said!