Sounds like sunshines been reading some David icke
Part of me thinks that David Icke is the result of a fairly ignorant man doing acid too many times.
Paraphrasing Robert A. Wilson -- The world is getting smaller yet more unpredictable, information flow is accelerating, and this all looks spooky to people. (the unpredictable tends to spook all mammals). Unable to grasp what is happening, most people look around for some "Evil Force" to blame. This Evil Force - conspiracy theories - will continue to proliferate as long as information and novelty accelerates faster and faster without an inclusion of general education in that information acceleration. Then we'll have more understanding (science) and less demonology (conspiracy theories).
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
I find it hard to defend a person that plants a bomb on a civilian bus. But hey that's just me.
are you implying the 1300+ people killed were all guilty of this?
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Just wondering why all the people crying out about Israel attacking in Gaza never seem to remember the fact that what provoked the attack was 7 years of rocket attacks from Gaza by the Hamas towards civilians all over the southern part of Israel. Over 1 million Israelis lived in fear for 7 years that a rocket would fall on their house. Tens of thousands of children grew up with the sounds of sirens warning them that a rocket was about to hit, schools and day care centers being bombarded by tens of thousands of rockets, mortars and missiles every year. Fact is, since the military opperation in Gaza, over a million Israelis have gone back to living real life without constant fear of being attacked. How would you want your country to respond if your neighbors shot missiles at you every day?
As for the loss of life on the Palestinian side, of course there will casualties of innocent civilians and children. That is what happens when the terrorists set up operations from a school playground, mosque and crowded civilian areas.
Israel is perhaps the most humane army in the world. As someone who actively serves in reserve duty every year, I have witnessed soldiers getting attacked or worse because they wanted to help the Palestinians that they came in contact with.
One more reminder in case anyone forgot, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza entirely over 5 years ago leaving no civilian or military presence in the area. The Hamas party was elected by the citizens of Gaza to be their leaders, but instead of concentrating their efforts towards helping the poor and hungry living there, they focus on attacking Israel.
I know that no matter what they hear, the antisemitic hate mongers in the world will continue to bash Israel for trying to protect her citizens from unprovoked terrorist attacks, but If you are going to insult, slander and attack people for not agreeing with you saying that they are "not informed of the facts", you should at least recognize that there are 2 sides in every story and know them both.
Israel is an extremely safe country to visit and to tour. In 2008, three million tourists came to Israel, an all-time record, and all three million went home again safe and sound. We would not encourage tourists to come if we felt they would be in the slightest danger.
if what you're saying is correct then wouldn't you say the government of Istael is being pretty irresponsible and lying?
while i'm not defending violence isn't it true the majority of rocket attacks happen at illegal settlements and areas that used to be Palestinian towns until the IDF bulldozed them down and built an illegal settlement on top of it?
stop taking land that is not yours and stop expanding the illegal settlements you already have, actually, just go back to your accepted borders.
and while you're at it stop taking 80% of the water and giving the Palestinians only 20%, stop uprooting their olive tree and other groves, stop the blockades, stop the violence and abuse from illegal settlers and most of all stop pretending like you've done everything you can and have no idea why there is violence, stop taking land that doesn't belong to you!
what you did in Gaza is disgraceful, you should be ashamed, they went after EVERYONE
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I find it interesting that clearly altruistic people can see this thing so one sided, and only seem to focus on the transgressions of one group while completely ignoring or rationalizing the brutalities of the other. Not to be coy, I'm primarily referring to the pro-Palestinian folks here, but I feel this just as strongly about many pro-Israeli people who I've met elsewhere.
i see it as one sided because it is. how can you blame both sides equally?
you can't.
there is only one side who is occupying the other. every single one of the Palestinians basic human rights are violated on a daily basis. there is only one side imprisoning the other. locked up like animals, palestinian homes are destroyed to allow illegal Israeli settlements. the UN consistantly condemns the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as illegal. Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are forced to live in apartheid conditions, while the Israeli settlements built on confiscated land separate the Palestinians from each other. all of this is sanctioned and maintained by the US. why? why does the rest of the world condemn the israeli actions, and yet the US refuses to hold Israeli human rights abusers accountable for their actions?
if you were subjected to what they are, every minute of every day, i wonder how long it would take you to retaliate? and for the record, i'm not a lover of Hamas, but at the end of the day, all that talk is just another ploy that the Israelis use to divert attention from their crimes, and try to distract us from the real issues.
stop taking land that is not yours and stop expanding the illegal settlements you already have, actually, just go back to your accepted borders.
and while you're at it stop taking 80% of the water and giving the Palestinians only 20%, stop uprooting their olive tree and other groves, stop the blockades, stop the violence and abuse from illegal settlers and most of all stop pretending like you've done everything you can and have no idea why there is violence, stop taking land that doesn't belong to you!
what you did in Gaza is disgraceful, you should be ashamed, they went after EVERYONE
I find it interesting that clearly altruistic people can see this thing so one sided, and only seem to focus on the transgressions of one group while completely ignoring or rationalizing the brutalities of the other. Not to be coy, I'm primarily referring to the pro-Palestinian folks here, but I feel this just as strongly about many pro-Israeli people who I've met elsewhere.
educate me, o knowledgeable one, on how this is not a one-sided conflict. please, provide me the links and information on how the Palestinians have been imprisoning and torturing the Israelis. show me a picture of a Palestinian F-16, or any information regarding the well-known Palestinian nuclear missile program. perhaps you can guide me to the information on how the Palestinians have been building illegal homes on Israeli land, and how the Palestinians have been burning Israeli land, stealing water, poisoning water, and massacring Israelis by the thousands. Killing Israeli children by the hundreds in a matter of a couple weeks. perhaps you can show me some statistics regarding the malnourished Israelis, and the unemployment rates of the Israelis, which are probably over 60%, whereas the Palestinians have only a 7% unemployment rate, of course. And who can forget the Israelis living in refugee camps, oh those poor, poor Israelis! Their houses just piling on top of each other, living as a displaced people for decades, and those fucking Palestinians think they're so powerful, they drive their Palestinian tanks straight into the refugee camps! Please, concertaholic, teach me, take me as your pupil and show me the ways of how to see things clearly. I've been blinded by the Palestinian propaganda and am in dire need of being guided towards the truth before it engulfs me completely!
We may be dreamers friend, but we're not the only ones
we are infinite potential
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Israel is an extremely safe country to visit and to tour. In 2008, three million tourists came to Israel, an all-time record, and all three million went home again safe and sound. We would not encourage tourists to come if we felt they would be in the slightest danger.
if what you're saying is correct then wouldn't you say the government of Istael is being pretty irresponsible and lying?
while i'm not defending violence isn't it true the majority of rocket attacks happen at illegal settlements and areas that used to be Palestinian towns until the IDF bulldozed them down and built an illegal settlement on top of it?
stop taking land that is not yours and stop expanding the illegal settlements you already have, actually, just go back to your accepted borders.
and while you're at it stop taking 80% of the water and giving the Palestinians only 20%, stop uprooting their olive tree and other groves, stop the blockades, stop the violence and abuse from illegal settlers and most of all stop pretending like you've done everything you can and have no idea why there is violence, stop taking land that doesn't belong to you!
what you did in Gaza is disgraceful, you should be ashamed, they went after EVERYONE
I find it hard to defend a person that plants a bomb on a civilian bus. But hey that's just me.
are you implying the 1300+ people killed were all guilty of this?
***yawn***
I'm not getting drawn into your pissing matches. See I really don't care about either Israel or the Palestinians very much, they are BOTH guilty. Until they both agree to get along nothing will change, so for now just continue to point fingers.
And since someone had to mention how much money the US gives to Israel go check and see how much we give in aid to the other side.
I find it hard to defend a person that plants a bomb on a civilian bus. But hey that's just me.
are you implying the 1300+ people killed were all guilty of this?
***yawn***
I'm not getting drawn into your pissing matches. See I really don't care about either Israel or the Palestinians very much, they are BOTH guilty. Until they both agree to get along nothing will change, so for now just continue to point fingers.
glad to see the death of 1300 people, including hundreds of women and children, makes you yawn. tell me, did 9/11 make you yawn? probably not. it's only sad when Americans die, but when Palestinians die... ***yawn***
and how are they both guilty? why do so many people love to make this stupid general statement without actually providing any evidence? what are the Palestinians guilty of? retaliating? during the Algerian revolution, were the Algerians also guilty for rebelling against french occupation? or the french during the Nazi occupation of france? why can't people just see this conflict as it is: a one-sided occupation that could end if people could stop providing excuses to let Israel do what they want. If people just held Israel responsible for its crimes, this conflict would end. stop placing the same amount of responsibility on the Palestinians, it does not work that way.
And since someone had to mention how much money the US gives to Israel go check and see how much we give in aid to the other side.
TriumphantAngel & _outlaw: Thank you so much for the patronizing comments laced with sarcasm. It so makes me want to make the effort have a meaningful discourse with you. It's especially touching that you notice the part where I make it clear that I have no use for sycophants of zionism either. Good stuff.
Last Philly Spectrum Show - Halloween 2009
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Montreal 2011
Missoula 2012
Seattle 2013
Denver 2014
Central Park NYC 2015
Sunrise 2016
Wrigley 2 2016 Seattle 1 2018
~~~~~~~
EV NYC 2 2011
RNDM NYC 2012 TOTD SF 2016
TriumphantAngel & _outlaw: Thank you so much for the patronizing comments laced with sarcasm. It so makes me want to make the effort have a meaningful discourse with you. It's especially touching that you notice the part where I make it clear that I have no use for sycophants of zionism either. Good stuff.
:?
my post didn't have patronizing comments laced with sarcasm. you said found it interesting that the pro-Palestinian folks here only see things one sided, and i was giving thoughts back to you as to why i feel it is so one sided and i did it without sarcasm. asking how you would feel to the examples i gave is not patronizing, it's a genuine question. you made the comment, i gave examples as to why i feel like i do.
I find it interesting that clearly altruistic people can see this thing so one sided, and only seem to focus on the transgressions of one group while completely ignoring or rationalizing the brutalities of the other. Not to be coy, I'm primarily referring to the pro-Palestinian folks here, but I feel this just as strongly about many pro-Israeli people who I've met elsewhere.
i see it as one sided because it is. how can you blame both sides equally?
you can't.
there is only one side who is occupying the other. every single one of the Palestinians basic human rights are violated on a daily basis. there is only one side imprisoning the other. locked up like animals, palestinian homes are destroyed to allow illegal Israeli settlements. the UN consistantly condemns the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as illegal. Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are forced to live in apartheid conditions, while the Israeli settlements built on confiscated land separate the Palestinians from each other. all of this is sanctioned and maintained by the US. why? why does the rest of the world condemn the israeli actions, and yet the US refuses to hold Israeli human rights abusers accountable for their actions?
if you were subjected to what they are, every minute of every day, i wonder how long it would take you to retaliate? and for the record, i'm not a lover of Hamas, but at the end of the day, all that talk is just another ploy that the Israelis use to divert attention from their crimes, and try to distract us from the real issues.
I find it hard to defend a person that plants a bomb on a civilian bus. But hey that's just me.
are you implying the 1300+ people killed were all guilty of this?
***yawn***
I'm not getting drawn into your pissing matches. See I really don't care about either Israel or the Palestinians very much, they are BOTH guilty. Until they both agree to get along nothing will change, so for now just continue to point fingers.
And since someone had to mention how much money the US gives to Israel go check and see how much we give in aid to the other side.
it's not a pissing match, i'm trying to understand your point....i started a thread about the innocent large number of civilians killed and you replied it was hard to defend someone who plants a bomb on a bus....so what you're saying is this veeeeeeery small % makes you yawn and not care about over 1,000 killed? no one would be left alive if we used that logic and ratios.
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
TriumphantAngel & _outlaw: Thank you so much for the patronizing comments laced with sarcasm. It so makes me want to make the effort have a meaningful discourse with you. It's especially touching that you notice the part where I make it clear that I have no use for sycophants of zionism either. Good stuff.
is there a reason why you didn't reply to my post and questions??
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
it is refreshing to see debate from so many posters from different countries in this thread. there are a few americans on the moving train that tell those from other countries that they can not comment on the US, its actions and foreign policy, and its culture because they "are not from here"... but these people are absent from threads concerning other countries and their conflicts....i wonder why that is...i have always invited those from other countries to contribute to all debates on here so its cool to see it here. i support the people of palestine in this particular conflict but i have learned things from all sides in this thread. keep it up everyone
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
The U.N. decision on the 29th of November 1947 offered the solution of 2 states for 2 people. That decision was based on the population spread of both people around the land at the time, having Jerusalem as an international zone. The Jewish leadership at the time were willing to accept that offer even though it would have left Israel at a military disadvantage (the jews would be on the low land while the arabs would be on the high land). The arab leadership at the time declined the offer and instead started war with the jewish community (there was still not a state of Israel) which lasted over a year. In this war, The jews were attacked by numerous arab countries at all borders. As far as the arabs were concerned, the goal of that war was to eliminate the jewish settlement in the middle east. 1% of the entire jewish population in Israel was killed during that war and Israel was founded during that war. When the cease fire was signed and borders were drawn, the west bank was declared part of Jordan.
Here's a different take on what happened - You ever seen the movie 'Rashomon'?
'The truth is that by May 1948 Zionist forces had already invaded and occupied large parts of the land which had been allocated to the Palestinians by the UN Partition Plan. In January 1948 Israel did not yet exist.
The evidence that Israel started the 1948 war comes from Zionist sources. The History of the Palmach which was released in portions in the 1950s (and in full in 1972) details the efforts made to attack the Palestinian Arabs and secure more territory than alloted to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan (Kibbutz Menchad Archive, Palmach Archive, Efal, Israel).
Already, Zionist forces were implementing their "Plan Dalet" to "control the area given to us [the Zionists] by the U.N. in addition to areas occupied by Arabs which were outside these borders and the setting up of forces to counter the possible invasion of Arab armies after May 15" (Qurvot 1948, p. 16, which covers the operations of Haganah and Palmach, see also Ha Sepher Ha Palmach, The Book of Palmach).
1. Operation Nachson, 1 April 1948
2. Operation Harel, 15 April 1948
3. Operation Misparayim, 21 April 1948
4. Operation Chametz, 27 April 1948
5. Operation Jevuss, 27 April 1948
6. Operation Yiftach, 28 April 1948
7. Operation Matateh, 3 May 1948
8. Operation Maccabi, 7 May 1948
9. Operation Gideon, 11 May 1948
10. Operation Barak, 12 May 1948
11. Operation Ben Ami, 14 May 1948
12. Operation Pitchfork, 14 May 1948
13. Operation Schfifon, 14 May 1948
The operations 1-8 indicate operations carried out before the entry of the Arab forces inside the areas allotted by the UN to the Arab state. It has to be noted that of thirteen specific full-scale operations
under Plan Dalet eight were carried out outside the area "given" by the UN to the Zionists.
Following is a list drawn from the New York Times of the major military operations the Zionists mounted before the British evacuated Palestine and before the Arab forces entered Palestine:
· Qazaza (21 Dec. 1947)
· Sa'sa (16 Feb. 1948)
· Haifa (21 Feb. 1948)
· Salameh (1 March 1948)
· Biyar Adas (6 March 1948)
· Qana (13 March 1948)
· Qastal (4 April 1948)
· Deir Yassin (9 April 1948)
· Lajjun (15 April 1948)
· Saris (17 April 1948)
· Tiberias (20 April 1948)
· Haifa (22 April 1948)
· Jerusalem (25 April 1948)
· Jaffa (26 April 1948)
· Acre (27 April 1948)
· Jerusalem (1 May 1948)
· Safad (7 May 1948)
· Beisan (9 May 1948).
David Ben-Gurion confirms this in an address delivered to American Zionists in Jerusalem on 3 September 1950:
"Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad" (Ben-Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (N.Y.: Philosophical Library, 1954, p. 530).
Although late PM Ben-Gurion speaks of "liberating" Jaffa it was alloted to the Palestinians by the UN Partition Plan.
Late PM Menachem Begin adds:
"In the months preceding the Arab invasion, and while the five Arab states were conducting preparations, we continued to make sallies into Arab territory. The conquest of Jaffa stands out as an event of first-rate importance in the struggle for Hebrew independence early in May, on the eve [that is, before the alleged Arab invasion] of the invasion by the five Arab states" (Menachem Begin, The Revolt, Nash, 1972, p. 348)
On 12 December 1948 David Ben Gurion confirmed the fact that the Zionists started the war in 1948:
"As April began, our War of Independence swung decisively from defense to attack. Operation 'Nachson'...was launched with the capture of Arab Hulda near where we stand today and of Deir Muheisin and culminated in
the storming of Qastel, the great hill fortress near Jerusalem" (Ben Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (N.Y.: Philosophical Library, 1954, p. 106).
Israeli historians have themselves refuted the claim that the Arabs started the 1948 war. Benny Morris uncovered a report from the Israeli Defense Force Intelligence Branch (30 June 1948) that shows a
deliberate Israeli policy to attack the Arabs should they resist and expel the Palestinians (Benny Morris, "The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: the Israel Defense Forces Intelligence Branch Analysis of June 1948", Middle Eastern Studies, XXII, January 1986, pp. 5-19).
Conclusion:
In sum, it is not true that the Arabs "invaded Israel" in 1948. First, Israel did not exist at the time of the alleged invasion as an established state with recognised bounderies. When the Zionist leaders established Israel on 15 May 1948 they purposely declined to declare the bounderies of the new state in order to allow for future expansion.
Secondly, the only territory to which the new state of Israel had even a remote claim was that alloted to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan. But the Zionists had already attacked areas that were alloted to the Palestinian Arab state.
Thirdly, those areas which the Arab states purportedly "invaded" were, in fact, exclusively areas alloted to the Palestinian Arab state proposed by the UN Partition Plan. The so-called Arab invasion was a defensive attempt to hold on to the areas alloted by the Partition Plan for the Palestinian state.
Finally, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, was under orders not to enter the areas alloted to the Jewish state (Sir John Bagot Glubb, "The Battle for Jerusalem", Middle East International, May 1973).
my post didn't have patronizing comments laced with sarcasm.
As far as the sarcasm, you are correct. I came very close to editing things while reviewing it after I posted and making it clear that the "sarcasm' comment was really directed at _outlaw. Sorry for not following through and clarifying; that's a fair objection on your part. However, intended or not, your post came off as very patronizing. I know the travesties of Israel, and don't need yet another recitation of them. What I won't do is give the LONG list of Palestinian travesties to go tit-for-tat. It takes two to tango... that was my point, and you completely dismiss it with the lecture on how bad Israel is with no consideration of what they've endured. It's perfectly legitimate to debate that you think there is no comparison in the severity, but the problem I see from BOTH sides is a refusal to give weight to the atrocities of the people they support. You said, "i wonder how long it would take you to retaliate?," but I see it as just a vicious cycle of retaliations of one side against the other. When all is said and done, you and I debating here is neither going to solve the problem, nor is it likely to result in one of us changing the opinion of things, but I do get frustrated when I see things portrayed in such a way by someone who, when all is said and done, would probably prefer to live under Israeli control than Palestinian rule. I'm just sayin'.
It takes two to tango... that was my point, and you completely dismiss it with the lecture on how bad Israel is with no consideration of what they've endured.
it only takes 1 to brutally occupy and repress a people.
what they have endured??? most of the attacks against Israeli's happen on land Israel stole. land Israel bulldozed down Palestinian homes and built their illegal settlements!
if i go to my neighbors house and say it's mine now and try to take it by force and he shoots me am i innocent? can i use as my defense how i had to endure being shot while trying to steal his land, land the UN has told me i must leave??
if Mexico was doing this in parts of Texas or California i'm pretty sure americans would react far more violently than the Palestinians have
you can't be a dick then cry that people don't like you when it's mostly your own damn fault for being such a bully and a prick. Israel (and by that i mean the government, not the populace, though it does apply to many of them) isn't interested in peace. their goal has always been to take as much land as they could. even Ben Gurion admitted this
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
a gunshot..a man dies....his blood is dark red,the smell so bad,the feelings deep,his family feel the pain...
u name the nacionality,his God,his believes,his skin,..the result is the same......1 dies..1300 dies is sad...
must stop.all the other info and opinion is good for keep this thread and hate on
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
a gunshot..a man dies....his blood is dark red,the smell so bad,the feelings deep,his family feel the pain...
u name the nacionality,his God,his believes,his skin,..the result is the same......1 dies..1300 dies is sad...
must stop.all the other info and opinion is good for keep this thread and hate on
what else are the Palestinians expected to give up for peace? they have nothing! they'v elived under this brutality for decades, things like that tend to stick in your craw and piss people off. i'm not saying it's right but what we have here is Israel with their boot heels on the neck of the Palestinians while the Palestinians, scared and abused, are kicking and hitting trying to stop the beating from Israel....
i really think if Israel stopped stealing land and water and stopped using methods they claimed the British used which only led to jewish terrosim against their British occupiers. if they stopped their theft and brutality they would have peace, but they won't because their goal has been all along to take as much of the land as they could, they admitted the original plan was just a starting point and they want more and will get it by force if necessary, even Ben Gurion, their first PM wrote this!!
i'm just saying, don't try to steal land from someone by force then cry when they fight back
Post edited by Pepe Silvia on
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
a gunshot..a man dies....his blood is dark red,the smell so bad,the feelings deep,his family feel the pain...
u name the nacionality,his God,his believes,his skin,..the result is the same......1 dies..1300 dies is sad...
must stop.all the other info and opinion is good for keep this thread and hate on
what else are the Palestinians expected to give up for peace? they have nothing! they'v elived under this brutality for decades, things like that tend to stick in your craw and piss people off. i'm not saying it's right but what we have here is Israel with their boot heels on the neck of the Palestinians while the Palestinians, scared and abused, are kicking and hitting trying to stop the beating from Israel....
i really think if Israel stopped stealing land and water and stopped using methods they claimed the British used which only led to jewish terrosim against their British occupiers. if they stopped their theft and brutality they would have peace, but they won't because their goal has been all along to take as much of the land as they could, they admitted the original plan was just a starting point and they have more and will get it by force if necessary, even Ben Gurion, their first PM wrote this!!
i'm just saying, don't try to steal land from someone by force then cry when they fight back
and only israelians in the history of world do that!!!!the one who has power use it,,from great alexander till now
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
a gunshot..a man dies....his blood is dark red,the smell so bad,the feelings deep,his family feel the pain...
u name the nacionality,his God,his believes,his skin,..the result is the same......1 dies..1300 dies is sad...
must stop.all the other info and opinion is good for keep this thread and hate on
what else are the Palestinians expected to give up for peace? they have nothing! they'v elived under this brutality for decades, things like that tend to stick in your craw and piss people off. i'm not saying it's right but what we have here is Israel with their boot heels on the neck of the Palestinians while the Palestinians, scared and abused, are kicking and hitting trying to stop the beating from Israel....
i really think if Israel stopped stealing land and water and stopped using methods they claimed the British used which only led to jewish terrosim against their British occupiers. if they stopped their theft and brutality they would have peace, but they won't because their goal has been all along to take as much of the land as they could, they admitted the original plan was just a starting point and they want more and will get it by force if necessary, even Ben Gurion, their first PM wrote this!!
i'm just saying, don't try to steal land from someone by force then cry when they fight back
and only israelians in the history of world do that!!!!the one who has power use it,,from great alexander till now
granted, however this is NOT a thread about Alexander or anyone else, it's about the massacre of 1,300-1,400 Palestinians a year ago by the Israelis, whether or not anyone else has done similar things throughout history is rather irrelevant
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
a gunshot..a man dies....his blood is dark red,the smell so bad,the feelings deep,his family feel the pain...
u name the nacionality,his God,his believes,his skin,..the result is the same......1 dies..1300 dies is sad...
must stop.all the other info and opinion is good for keep this thread and hate on
look, no one in this thread is advocating the death of more people. everyone always claims to want the same thing: peace. the point is, some of us see that the only way to do this is for Israel to cease its occupation and to stop its oppression of the Palestinians. Only then is peace attainable. However, when everyone starts to pretend or even imply that this is an equally balanced conflict, then it is difficult to resolve because Israel will continue to make up excuses for its "retaliations" (or, in real terms, destruction of a people) and everyone will continue to stand by idly while more Palestinians are killed or tortured, treated inhumanely, and given barely any means to survive.
If people truly want peace, then start holding Israel responsible for this conflict. The Palestinians' resistance movements are just a sideshow - a means of the Palestinians trying to retaliate, but clearly Israel has the upper hand and the Palestinians are unable to sway the 5th largest military in the world with rocket attacks, so can people stop trying to balance these two and start holding the occupier responsible?
it's not a pissing match, i'm trying to understand your point....i started a thread about the innocent large number of civilians killed and you replied it was hard to defend someone who plants a bomb on a bus....so what you're saying is this veeeeeeery small % makes you yawn and not care about over 1,000 killed? no one would be left alive if we used that logic and ratios.
What makes me yawn is the same old story back and forth. It is like watching a tennis match or two brothers continuing to argue about the same thing all of the time. It gets old. Neither side really seems to want peace, both are to blame.
Do I sympathize with the Palestinians? Yeah I do a little bit. But I think the Jews should someday be able to catch a break somewhere. I'm sure it gets old that all of your neighbors want you dead, and not just because of this 'occupation'. I think the Jews may be the most persecuted group, ever.
Either way until the finger pointing stops and they agree to a real peace agreement you will never see the end to the fighting.
if Mexico was doing this in parts of Texas or California i'm pretty sure americans would react far more violently than the Palestinians have
The invasion of California and Texas has been happening for years and is spreading throughout the country. The plague will continue since this administration is going to grant amnesty to 12 million criminals. But that is another topic.
if Mexico was doing this in parts of Texas or California i'm pretty sure americans would react far more violently than the Palestinians have
The invasion of California and Texas has been happening for years and is spreading throughout the country. The plague will continue since this administration is going to grant amnesty to 12 million criminals. But that is another topic.
oh is that a fact? what legislation is going to grant amnesty to 12 million criminals?? not the healthcare bill that's for sure.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Comments
Part of me thinks that David Icke is the result of a fairly ignorant man doing acid too many times.
Paraphrasing Robert A. Wilson -- The world is getting smaller yet more unpredictable, information flow is accelerating, and this all looks spooky to people. (the unpredictable tends to spook all mammals). Unable to grasp what is happening, most people look around for some "Evil Force" to blame. This Evil Force - conspiracy theories - will continue to proliferate as long as information and novelty accelerates faster and faster without an inclusion of general education in that information acceleration. Then we'll have more understanding (science) and less demonology (conspiracy theories).
are you implying the 1300+ people killed were all guilty of this?
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
in fear? really??
http://info.jpost.com/1999/Supplements/ ... front2.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbuTzd0V ... r_embedded
from the Israeli Ministry of Tourism:
http://www.goisrael.com/Tourism_Eng/Tou ... .%20SAFETY
if what you're saying is correct then wouldn't you say the government of Istael is being pretty irresponsible and lying?
while i'm not defending violence isn't it true the majority of rocket attacks happen at illegal settlements and areas that used to be Palestinian towns until the IDF bulldozed them down and built an illegal settlement on top of it?
stop taking land that is not yours and stop expanding the illegal settlements you already have, actually, just go back to your accepted borders.
and while you're at it stop taking 80% of the water and giving the Palestinians only 20%, stop uprooting their olive tree and other groves, stop the blockades, stop the violence and abuse from illegal settlers and most of all stop pretending like you've done everything you can and have no idea why there is violence, stop taking land that doesn't belong to you!
what you did in Gaza is disgraceful, you should be ashamed, they went after EVERYONE
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
you can't.
there is only one side who is occupying the other. every single one of the Palestinians basic human rights are violated on a daily basis. there is only one side imprisoning the other. locked up like animals, palestinian homes are destroyed to allow illegal Israeli settlements. the UN consistantly condemns the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as illegal. Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are forced to live in apartheid conditions, while the Israeli settlements built on confiscated land separate the Palestinians from each other. all of this is sanctioned and maintained by the US. why? why does the rest of the world condemn the israeli actions, and yet the US refuses to hold Israeli human rights abusers accountable for their actions?
if you were subjected to what they are, every minute of every day, i wonder how long it would take you to retaliate? and for the record, i'm not a lover of Hamas, but at the end of the day, all that talk is just another ploy that the Israelis use to divert attention from their crimes, and try to distract us from the real issues.
We may be dreamers friend, but we're not the only ones
www.ivaw.org
we are infinite potential
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
we are
www.ivaw.org
Well said!
***yawn***
I'm not getting drawn into your pissing matches. See I really don't care about either Israel or the Palestinians very much, they are BOTH guilty. Until they both agree to get along nothing will change, so for now just continue to point fingers.
And since someone had to mention how much money the US gives to Israel go check and see how much we give in aid to the other side.
and how are they both guilty? why do so many people love to make this stupid general statement without actually providing any evidence? what are the Palestinians guilty of? retaliating? during the Algerian revolution, were the Algerians also guilty for rebelling against french occupation? or the french during the Nazi occupation of france? why can't people just see this conflict as it is: a one-sided occupation that could end if people could stop providing excuses to let Israel do what they want. If people just held Israel responsible for its crimes, this conflict would end. stop placing the same amount of responsibility on the Palestinians, it does not work that way.
ok.
http://ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html
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my post didn't have patronizing comments laced with sarcasm. you said found it interesting that the pro-Palestinian folks here only see things one sided, and i was giving thoughts back to you as to why i feel it is so one sided and i did it without sarcasm. asking how you would feel to the examples i gave is not patronizing, it's a genuine question. you made the comment, i gave examples as to why i feel like i do.
i see it as one sided because it is. how can you blame both sides equally?
you can't.
there is only one side who is occupying the other. every single one of the Palestinians basic human rights are violated on a daily basis. there is only one side imprisoning the other. locked up like animals, palestinian homes are destroyed to allow illegal Israeli settlements. the UN consistantly condemns the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as illegal. Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are forced to live in apartheid conditions, while the Israeli settlements built on confiscated land separate the Palestinians from each other. all of this is sanctioned and maintained by the US. why? why does the rest of the world condemn the israeli actions, and yet the US refuses to hold Israeli human rights abusers accountable for their actions?
if you were subjected to what they are, every minute of every day, i wonder how long it would take you to retaliate? and for the record, i'm not a lover of Hamas, but at the end of the day, all that talk is just another ploy that the Israelis use to divert attention from their crimes, and try to distract us from the real issues.
it's not a pissing match, i'm trying to understand your point....i started a thread about the innocent large number of civilians killed and you replied it was hard to defend someone who plants a bomb on a bus....so what you're saying is this veeeeeeery small % makes you yawn and not care about over 1,000 killed? no one would be left alive if we used that logic and ratios.
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
is there a reason why you didn't reply to my post and questions??
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Here's a different take on what happened - You ever seen the movie 'Rashomon'?
'The truth is that by May 1948 Zionist forces had already invaded and occupied large parts of the land which had been allocated to the Palestinians by the UN Partition Plan. In January 1948 Israel did not yet exist.
The evidence that Israel started the 1948 war comes from Zionist sources. The History of the Palmach which was released in portions in the 1950s (and in full in 1972) details the efforts made to attack the Palestinian Arabs and secure more territory than alloted to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan (Kibbutz Menchad Archive, Palmach Archive, Efal, Israel).
Already, Zionist forces were implementing their "Plan Dalet" to "control the area given to us [the Zionists] by the U.N. in addition to areas occupied by Arabs which were outside these borders and the setting up of forces to counter the possible invasion of Arab armies after May 15" (Qurvot 1948, p. 16, which covers the operations of Haganah and Palmach, see also Ha Sepher Ha Palmach, The Book of Palmach).
1. Operation Nachson, 1 April 1948
2. Operation Harel, 15 April 1948
3. Operation Misparayim, 21 April 1948
4. Operation Chametz, 27 April 1948
5. Operation Jevuss, 27 April 1948
6. Operation Yiftach, 28 April 1948
7. Operation Matateh, 3 May 1948
8. Operation Maccabi, 7 May 1948
9. Operation Gideon, 11 May 1948
10. Operation Barak, 12 May 1948
11. Operation Ben Ami, 14 May 1948
12. Operation Pitchfork, 14 May 1948
13. Operation Schfifon, 14 May 1948
The operations 1-8 indicate operations carried out before the entry of the Arab forces inside the areas allotted by the UN to the Arab state. It has to be noted that of thirteen specific full-scale operations
under Plan Dalet eight were carried out outside the area "given" by the UN to the Zionists.
Following is a list drawn from the New York Times of the major military operations the Zionists mounted before the British evacuated Palestine and before the Arab forces entered Palestine:
· Qazaza (21 Dec. 1947)
· Sa'sa (16 Feb. 1948)
· Haifa (21 Feb. 1948)
· Salameh (1 March 1948)
· Biyar Adas (6 March 1948)
· Qana (13 March 1948)
· Qastal (4 April 1948)
· Deir Yassin (9 April 1948)
· Lajjun (15 April 1948)
· Saris (17 April 1948)
· Tiberias (20 April 1948)
· Haifa (22 April 1948)
· Jerusalem (25 April 1948)
· Jaffa (26 April 1948)
· Acre (27 April 1948)
· Jerusalem (1 May 1948)
· Safad (7 May 1948)
· Beisan (9 May 1948).
David Ben-Gurion confirms this in an address delivered to American Zionists in Jerusalem on 3 September 1950:
"Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad" (Ben-Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (N.Y.: Philosophical Library, 1954, p. 530).
Although late PM Ben-Gurion speaks of "liberating" Jaffa it was alloted to the Palestinians by the UN Partition Plan.
Late PM Menachem Begin adds:
"In the months preceding the Arab invasion, and while the five Arab states were conducting preparations, we continued to make sallies into Arab territory. The conquest of Jaffa stands out as an event of first-rate importance in the struggle for Hebrew independence early in May, on the eve [that is, before the alleged Arab invasion] of the invasion by the five Arab states" (Menachem Begin, The Revolt, Nash, 1972, p. 348)
On 12 December 1948 David Ben Gurion confirmed the fact that the Zionists started the war in 1948:
"As April began, our War of Independence swung decisively from defense to attack. Operation 'Nachson'...was launched with the capture of Arab Hulda near where we stand today and of Deir Muheisin and culminated in
the storming of Qastel, the great hill fortress near Jerusalem" (Ben Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (N.Y.: Philosophical Library, 1954, p. 106).
Israeli historians have themselves refuted the claim that the Arabs started the 1948 war. Benny Morris uncovered a report from the Israeli Defense Force Intelligence Branch (30 June 1948) that shows a
deliberate Israeli policy to attack the Arabs should they resist and expel the Palestinians (Benny Morris, "The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: the Israel Defense Forces Intelligence Branch Analysis of June 1948", Middle Eastern Studies, XXII, January 1986, pp. 5-19).
Conclusion:
In sum, it is not true that the Arabs "invaded Israel" in 1948. First, Israel did not exist at the time of the alleged invasion as an established state with recognised bounderies. When the Zionist leaders established Israel on 15 May 1948 they purposely declined to declare the bounderies of the new state in order to allow for future expansion.
Secondly, the only territory to which the new state of Israel had even a remote claim was that alloted to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan. But the Zionists had already attacked areas that were alloted to the Palestinian Arab state.
Thirdly, those areas which the Arab states purportedly "invaded" were, in fact, exclusively areas alloted to the Palestinian Arab state proposed by the UN Partition Plan. The so-called Arab invasion was a defensive attempt to hold on to the areas alloted by the Partition Plan for the Palestinian state.
Finally, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, was under orders not to enter the areas alloted to the Jewish state (Sir John Bagot Glubb, "The Battle for Jerusalem", Middle East International, May 1973).
good read...
MSG 1 & 2 2010
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~~~~~~~
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Highlights Of Last Spectrum Show
Mike DESTROYING in Seattle 2013
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - HST
Instagram (great concert shots of many bands): concertaholic
it only takes 1 to brutally occupy and repress a people.
what they have endured??? most of the attacks against Israeli's happen on land Israel stole. land Israel bulldozed down Palestinian homes and built their illegal settlements!
if i go to my neighbors house and say it's mine now and try to take it by force and he shoots me am i innocent? can i use as my defense how i had to endure being shot while trying to steal his land, land the UN has told me i must leave??
if Mexico was doing this in parts of Texas or California i'm pretty sure americans would react far more violently than the Palestinians have
you can't be a dick then cry that people don't like you when it's mostly your own damn fault for being such a bully and a prick. Israel (and by that i mean the government, not the populace, though it does apply to many of them) isn't interested in peace. their goal has always been to take as much land as they could. even Ben Gurion admitted this
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
u name the nacionality,his God,his believes,his skin,..the result is the same......1 dies..1300 dies is sad...
must stop.all the other info and opinion is good for keep this thread and hate on
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
what else are the Palestinians expected to give up for peace? they have nothing! they'v elived under this brutality for decades, things like that tend to stick in your craw and piss people off. i'm not saying it's right but what we have here is Israel with their boot heels on the neck of the Palestinians while the Palestinians, scared and abused, are kicking and hitting trying to stop the beating from Israel....
i really think if Israel stopped stealing land and water and stopped using methods they claimed the British used which only led to jewish terrosim against their British occupiers. if they stopped their theft and brutality they would have peace, but they won't because their goal has been all along to take as much of the land as they could, they admitted the original plan was just a starting point and they want more and will get it by force if necessary, even Ben Gurion, their first PM wrote this!!
i'm just saying, don't try to steal land from someone by force then cry when they fight back
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
granted, however this is NOT a thread about Alexander or anyone else, it's about the massacre of 1,300-1,400 Palestinians a year ago by the Israelis, whether or not anyone else has done similar things throughout history is rather irrelevant
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
If people truly want peace, then start holding Israel responsible for this conflict. The Palestinians' resistance movements are just a sideshow - a means of the Palestinians trying to retaliate, but clearly Israel has the upper hand and the Palestinians are unable to sway the 5th largest military in the world with rocket attacks, so can people stop trying to balance these two and start holding the occupier responsible?
What makes me yawn is the same old story back and forth. It is like watching a tennis match or two brothers continuing to argue about the same thing all of the time. It gets old. Neither side really seems to want peace, both are to blame.
Do I sympathize with the Palestinians? Yeah I do a little bit. But I think the Jews should someday be able to catch a break somewhere. I'm sure it gets old that all of your neighbors want you dead, and not just because of this 'occupation'. I think the Jews may be the most persecuted group, ever.
Either way until the finger pointing stops and they agree to a real peace agreement you will never see the end to the fighting.
The invasion of California and Texas has been happening for years and is spreading throughout the country. The plague will continue since this administration is going to grant amnesty to 12 million criminals. But that is another topic.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."