a look back at Israel's criminal acts last year

Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
edited January 2010 in A Moving Train
lots of clips from c-span, bbc, cnn, press conferences, news articles, footage of the area....from Israel's disgusting behavior when they started massacring Palestinians in Gaza a year ago Dec 27th.

how can they tell the populace to go to the center of Gaza for their own safety and then bomb the center of the city with 150mm shells? how can they bomb UN and Red Cross buildings then first say it's a lie, then say well there were militants there, then change their story a 3rd time to it was a targeting error and then bomb some of the same buildings again? how can they shoot civilians with white flags? how can they bomb hospitals, water treatment facilities, refugee centers, UN food aid buildings, electrical plants, run over bodies with tanks and not allow anyone in or the dead to be removed instead letting them sit and some be eaten by dogs?

over 1,000 innocent Palestinian civillians. over 100 women, over 300 children, 16 World Health Organization health personnel, 16 medical personnel,5 of the UN's UNRWA, 3 Israeli civillians and 1 World Food Programme worker were killed in this massacre. it's sickening that not only can this happen in this day and age but with my tax money and government's consent and silence. even the president elect, Obama, wouldn't say a word about it.

what would happen if Mexico did this to parts of Texas or California ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9mkRiGbgZg
don't compete; coexist

what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • its a war....u will never find right..is all shit..both partys feel the pain
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    its a war....u will never find right..is all shit..both partys feel the pain
    That's a shitload of fuck. It's not a war. A war is when two armies fight against eachother. This is 1.5 million people, most of whom are poor, unemployed, and malnourished, locked into a small piece of land the size of Washington DC, being bombed by one of the world's greatest militaries. Both parties feel the pain? What pain do the Israelis feel? Do they ever feel any amount of pain that is the same hemisphere as the oppression that the Palestinians are faced with? I'm not suggesting that you were even trying to say that both parties feel an equal amount of oppression. Maybe you even know the degree in which the Palestinians are oppressed, but I can judge by that statement that you don't know that it is the Israeli government that is responsible for this conflict, and it is the Israeli government that is committing mass murder under the eyes of the world.

    I'm sorry, but your statement is purely moronic. It is the perfect example of a piece of shit sentence that self-righteous assholes like to say when they feel the need to comment on something and still feel 'neutral'. Yeah, you feel great when you make a neutral statement like that. You sit there sympathizing with both sides without actually doing anything to gain any true knowledge about this issue. Yes, I am assuming that you have no knowledge about this issue, and the truth is you don't. Not if you make a statement like that. It's pathetic to see people in this world pretend like they care. You should be ashamed for making such a disgusting statement at the expense of the 1400 Palestinians and over 300 children who lost their lives.

    You might find that my post was a 'disproportionate response' to your post. Well that's too fucking bad for you.
  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam Posts: 139,721
    edited December 2009
    _outlaw wrote:
    its a war....u will never find right..is all shit..both partys feel the pain
    That's a shitload of fuck. It's not a war. A war is when two armies fight against eachother. This is 1.5 million people, most of whom are poor, unemployed, and malnourished, locked into a small piece of land the size of Washington DC, being bombed by one of the world's greatest militaries. Both parties feel the pain? What pain do the Israelis feel? Do they ever feel any amount of pain that is the same hemisphere as the oppression that the Palestinians are faced with? I'm not suggesting that you were even trying to say that both parties feel an equal amount of oppression. Maybe you even know the degree in which the Palestinians are oppressed, but I can judge by that statement that you don't know that it is the Israeli government that is responsible for this conflict, and it is the Israeli government that is committing mass murder under the eyes of the world.

    I'm sorry, but your statement is purely moronic. It is the perfect example of a piece of shit sentence that self-righteous assholes like to say when they feel the need to comment on something and still feel 'neutral'. Yeah, you feel great when you make a neutral statement like that. You sit there sympathizing with both sides without actually doing anything to gain any true knowledge about this issue. Yes, I am assuming that you have no knowledge about this issue, and the truth is you don't. Not if you make a statement like that. It's pathetic to see people in this world pretend like they care. You should be ashamed for making such a disgusting statement at the expense of the 1400 Palestinians and over 300 children who lost their lives.

    You might find that my post was a 'disproportionate response' to your post. Well that's too fucking bad for you.
    1st u dont respect other opinions,and thats your problem,not mine,second u dont live there as im not ,but im closer and the palestines that leave their country comes to my country not to yours,third israelians feel the pain like the 9/11 people just go to work and a bomb explode from nowhere..from the other hand palestines are a poor people that israelians take their land and bomb them anytime they like,,
    so...its a war....u will never find right..is all shit..both partys feel the pain...
    like your country is in war..with terrorism,right?
    + i dont have to call u names or attack to u as a person to proove u that im right..
    Post edited by dimitrispearljam on
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Thank u Pepe and Outlaw for showing me there are people out there that know the truth and speak the truth. As for my Greek friend, u need to spend less time on this site and really find out the truth. Anyone wonder why pearl jam never play in "Israel"? Could it be there way of silentlly protesting?? The rest of the world is silent, mite as well keep the music slilent in "Israel"...all the fucken sheep need to wake up. Zionism isn't a religion, its an excuse to massacre....this isn't Muslim vs Jews, it's zionism vs the world...
  • badbrains wrote:
    Thank u Pepe and Outlaw for showing me there are people out there that know the truth and speak the truth. As for my Greek friend, u need to spend less time on this site and really find out the truth. Anyone wonder why pearl jam never play in "Israel"? Could it be there way of silentlly protesting?? The rest of the world is silent, mite as well keep the music slilent in "Israel"...all the fucken sheep need to wake up. Zionism isn't a religion, its an excuse to massacre....this isn't Muslim vs Jews, it's zionism vs the world...
    its so bad situation..as Avganistan the bombs arrive from nowhere,and people die,btw which country help with political statement and with guns Israel all this years?not Greece,believe me..and we are the country that all this victums of war arrive in my country..we are the only country that accept and put them in our lifes..the other countries throw them to sea...my Dad every week go food to the 2 palestines families live in a basement in our street...come on..u see palestines from tv,i see them every day.....
    and yes i would see them more than once if i spend less time on this site..
    my opinion stays..people die ,suffer from both partys..peoples pain dont have color,or nationality
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    U see them everyday??? Fuck u, my aunt married a Palestinian and I have 5 cousins that are, so dnt compare ur situation to mine. U see them everyday, learn from ur father, it seems he atleast is doing something. Ask him to tell u about the fake state of Israel. But hey as long as it's Palestine getting bombed and not Greece it's ok. Wake the fuck up man, stop living in an imaginary world. I love pearl jam as much as anyone here, and I bet I've seen them more than most in the club (59 X) last time I checked, I would love for this band to attach there name to the cause. It makes me sick that celeberties attach there names from darfur to Iraq but no one has the balls to attach it to this.....not even BONO, and not even EDDIE. That rite there should tell u and the world something. As one of my favorite frontman once said,"read between the lines....". U figure out who said that.
  • badbrains wrote:
    U see them everyday??? Fuck u, my aunt married a Palestinian and I have 5 cousins that are, so dnt compare ur situation to mine. U see them everyday, learn from ur father, it seems he atleast is doing something. Ask him to tell u about the fake state of Israel. But hey as long as it's Palestine getting bombed and not Greece it's ok. Wake the fuck up man, stop living in an imaginary world. I love pearl jam as much as anyone here, and I bet I've seen them more than most in the club (59 X) last time I checked, I would love for this band to attach there name to the cause. It makes me sick that celeberties attach there names from darfur to Iraq but no one has the balls to attach it to this.....not even BONO, and not even EDDIE. That rite there should tell u and the world something. As one of my favorite frontman once said,"read between the lines....". U figure out who said that.
    i respect all opinions,dont have to say anything in this tone for put my opinion over anyone else..once again,even your aunt wife is palestinian,or israelian,they leave in a place,not safe,people die,families are in pain..where u dont live in Peace all are shit..im not gonna solve political history here..i see the result now..all the empires do the same..make wars ,want to be the boss.. ....u see on tv.or some of u see with your eyes the 9/11..people die .people suffer.but u never see that people do that attack loose their family,in smart bombs..cant u see that is a circle?if u think that Israelians are the bad guys fro all world bad things happen,what can i say?maybe only this...USA is the country that support them from 1948..to make this fake country
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • rafierafie Posts: 2,160
    Just wondering why all the people crying out about Israel attacking in Gaza never seem to remember the fact that what provoked the attack was 7 years of rocket attacks from Gaza by the Hamas towards civilians all over the southern part of Israel. Over 1 million Israelis lived in fear for 7 years that a rocket would fall on their house. Tens of thousands of children grew up with the sounds of sirens warning them that a rocket was about to hit, schools and day care centers being bombarded by tens of thousands of rockets, mortars and missiles every year. Fact is, since the military opperation in Gaza, over a million Israelis have gone back to living real life without constant fear of being attacked. How would you want your country to respond if your neighbors shot missiles at you every day?
    As for the loss of life on the Palestinian side, of course there will casualties of innocent civilians and children. That is what happens when the terrorists set up operations from a school playground, mosque and crowded civilian areas.
    Israel is perhaps the most humane army in the world. As someone who actively serves in reserve duty every year, I have witnessed soldiers getting attacked or worse because they wanted to help the Palestinians that they came in contact with.


    One more reminder in case anyone forgot, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza entirely over 5 years ago leaving no civilian or military presence in the area. The Hamas party was elected by the citizens of Gaza to be their leaders, but instead of concentrating their efforts towards helping the poor and hungry living there, they focus on attacking Israel.

    I know that no matter what they hear, the antisemitic hate mongers in the world will continue to bash Israel for trying to protect her citizens from unprovoked terrorist attacks, but If you are going to insult, slander and attack people for not agreeing with you saying that they are "not informed of the facts", you should at least recognize that there are 2 sides in every story and know them both.
    Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!

    2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
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  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    badbrains wrote:
    I would love for this band to attach there name to the cause. It makes me sick that celeberties attach there names from darfur to Iraq but no one has the balls to attach it to this.....not even BONO, and not even EDDIE.

    +1
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    rafie wrote:
    Just wondering why all the people crying out about Israel attacking in Gaza never seem to remember the fact that what provoked the attack was 7 years of rocket attacks from Gaza by the Hamas towards civilians all over the southern part of Israel.

    Actually, what provoked the attack was a planned invasion about 6 months before the ceasefire which Israel broke on November 4th 2008.

    Read on:

    http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/excellent-analysis/
    Israel’s Lies

    01.29.2009 | The London Review of Books
    By Henry Siegman


    '...Israel, not Hamas, violated the truce: Hamas undertook to stop firing rockets into Israel; in return, Israel was to ease its throttlehold on Gaza. In fact, during the truce, it tightened it further. This was confirmed not only by every neutral international observer and NGO on the scene but by Brigadier General (Res.) Shmuel Zakai, a former commander of the IDF’s Gaza Division. In an interview in Ha’aretz on 22 December, he accused Israel’s government of having made a ‘central error’ during the tahdiyeh, the six-month period of relative truce, by failing ‘to take advantage of the calm to improve, rather than markedly worsen, the economic plight of the Palestinians of the Strip . . . When you create a tahdiyeh, and the economic pressure on the Strip continues,’ General Zakai said, ‘it is obvious that Hamas will try to reach an improved tahdiyeh, and that their way to achieve this is resumed Qassam fire . . . You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they’re in, and expect that Hamas will just sit around and do nothing.’

    The truce, which began in June last year and was due for renewal in December, required both parties to refrain from violent action against the other. Hamas had to cease its rocket assaults and prevent the firing of rockets by other groups such as Islamic Jihad (even Israel’s intelligence agencies acknowledged this had been implemented with surprising effectiveness), and Israel had to put a stop to its targeted assassinations and military incursions. This understanding was seriously violated on 4 November, when the IDF entered Gaza and killed six members of Hamas. Hamas responded by launching Qassam rockets and Grad missiles. Even so, it offered to extend the truce, but only on condition that Israel ended its blockade. Israel refused. It could have met its obligation to protect its citizens by agreeing to ease the blockade, but it didn’t even try. It cannot be said that Israel launched its assault to protect its citizens from rockets. It did so to protect its right to continue the strangulation of Gaza’s population...'

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... -palestine

    How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe

    Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions

    Avi Shlaim - The Guardian, Wednesday 7 January 2009


    rafie wrote:
    Israel is perhaps the most humane army in the world.

    Not according to the IDF it isn't:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel
    Israeli soldiers tell of indiscriminate killings by army and a culture of impunity
    The Guardian, Tuesday 6 September 2005


    From a distance of 70 metres and through the sight of his machine gun, Assaf could tell that the Palestinian man was aged between 20 and 30, unarmed and trying to get away from an Israeli tank. But the details didn't matter much, because Assaf's orders were to "fire at anything that moved".

    Assaf, a soldier in the Israeli army, pressed the trigger, firing scores of bullets as the body fell to the ground. "He ran and I started shooting for a few seconds. He fell. I was a machine. I fire. I leave and that's that. We never spoke about it afterwards."

    It was the summer of 2002, and Assaf and his armoured unit had been ordered to enter the Gaza town of Dir al Balah following the firing of mortars into nearby Jewish settlements. His orders were, he told the Guardian, "'Every person you see on the street, kill him'. And we would just do it."...'


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel1
    Israeli troops say they were given shoot-to-kill order
    The Guardian, Tuesday 6 September 2005


    Some of the soldiers, who also spoke to the Guardian, say they acted on standing orders in some parts of the Palestinian territories to open fire on people regardless of whether they were armed or not, or posed any physical threat.

    The soldiers say that in some situations they were ordered to shoot anyone who appeared on a roof or a balcony, anyone who appeared to be kneeling to the ground or anyone who appeared on the street at a designated time. Among those killed by soldiers acting on the orders were young children...'

    http://www.jerusalemites.org/articles/e ... 004/19.htm
    Killing children is no longer a big deal
    Gideon Levy - October.19.2004


    rafie wrote:
    One more reminder in case anyone forgot, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza entirely over 5 years ago leaving no civilian or military presence in the area.

    Yeah, sure, of course they did.

    'In a study entitled 'One Big Prison', the respected Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem observed that the crippling economic arrangements Israel had imposed on Gaza would remain in place. In addition, Israel would continue to maintain absolute control over Gaza's land borders, coastline, and airspace, and the Israeli army would continue to operate in Gaza. "So long as these methods of control remain in Israeli hands," B'Tselem concluded, "Israel's claim of 'an end of the Occupation' is questionable". HRW (Human Rights Watch) was even more emphatic that evacuating settlers and troops from inside Gaza would not end the occupation: "Whether the Israeli army is inside Gaza or redeployed around it's periphery, and restricting entrance and exit, it remains in control."

    http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/D ... y/4222.htm
    Key Sharon advisor: "disengagement" aims to stop Palestinian state
    By Israel Insider staff and partners October 6, 2004


    In a stunning admission, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser said that the purpose of the Israeli government's policy was to supend diplomatic moves to establish a Palestinian state. "The significance of the 'disengagement' plan is the freezing of the peace process," Dov Weissglas told Haaretz.

    Weissglas, an initiator of the plan, explained that the deep freeze would prevent implementation of the "Road Map" backed by the Quartet of the United States, Russia, EU and UN: "when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."

    "The disengagement is actually formaldehyde," he said. "It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."...'

    rafie wrote:
    I know that no matter what they hear, the antisemitic hate mongers in the world will continue to bash Israel for trying to protect her citizens from unprovoked terrorist attacks

    If Israel wanted to protect it's citizens then it would end the occupation and fortify it's internationally recognized 1967 borders, instead of stealing more and more land and rejecting international law and the will of the international community - excluding the U.S.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    I will bet anything Rafie is either Jewish or lives in fake Israel. There is no way on earth anyone can defend fake Israel, period....this problem started the day that fake country was created....and dnt EVER forget that fake Israel was created WITH terrorism...look back at all there prime ministers and study about them. Then maybe you'll get a fucken clue...will some celeberty ever get the balls to stand up and take a side?? It's hard to believe a group of people who were almost exterminated have it in there souls to put there cousins in concentration camps and practise genocide against them. Unbelievable that a world stands silent... It's also amazing to me that we teach our kids in school about the holocust for a week yet we spend 2 days max on civil war. And we hardly mention "Palestine". What a joke, but like I said, read between the lines....and fucken wake up already!!!!!
  • rafierafie Posts: 2,160
    badbrains wrote:
    I will bet anything Rafie is either Jewish or lives in fake Israel. There is no way on earth anyone can defend fake Israel,

    I never denied being an Israeli. If you were not so busy with spewing hatred you would have seen that I wrote in my previous post that I am an active reserve soldier in the IDF.
    Byrnzie wrote:
    If Israel wanted to protect it's citizens then it would end the occupation and fortify it's internationally recognized 1967 borders, instead of stealing more and more land and rejecting international law and the will of the international community - excluding the U.S.

    The problem with going to the 1967 borders is that "the west bank" was Jordanian territory back then. Israel has had peace with Jordan for nearly 20 years. During all that time, Jordan never said that they wanted the west bank.
    As for stealing more land, Israels borders have gotten smaller since the 1967 war: The Sinai peninsula was given to Egypt during the peace process, In the early 90's The P.L.O recieved control over extended areas in the west bank, former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak offered Yassir Arafat over 90% of the west bank during peace talks in the year 2000, Israeli leaders have been saying year after year that they are prepared to start peace talks with any arab nation with "a clean sleight" and so on.
    The Israeli people want nothing more than to live in peace with our neighbors, thousands of Israeli tourists visit Egypt and Jordan every year. If the world wants to help the palestinan people, they should focus more on the people living in poverty while their "leaders" live in wealth than focusing on "how horrible Israel is".

    P.S.
    badbrains wrote:
    lives in fake Israel
    What does that even mean?
    Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!

    2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
    2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
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  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Spewing hatred???? U guys spew more hatred then anyother group of people. Strike that, Zionists spew more hatred then any other people... And since ur an Israeli, y dnt u clearify how many un sanctions have u guys laughed at?? And funny how u dnt say anything about all ur prime ministers being terrerists. I hope that if there is a god, Ariel Sharon is being tortured in his sleep every min from someone he directlly or indirectlly killed...I swear he is the anti-Christ!!!! In a coma for how long now??? And still not dead???? Ohand since ur idf, isn't illegal under any law in the world to use phosphurus on civilians??? I bet ur going to say it's Hamas who's using them rite???? Oh ya that's rite, laws of the world dnt pertain to Israel cuz it's a fake country... But hey it's also ok for them to stockpile over 200 nuclear bombs (even pointed at USA) but no one else has the rite to.. Bro ur so called country has 3 villages of my people in it( kopher kahman) I'm no Palestinian, I'm a human being and what ur so called country is doing to them is ungodly. People that do things like urcountry dnt believe in god period.....god damn it man, after what Hitler did to ur people, u guys go and do it to other "Semitic" people like u...I will go head to head with u about anything to do with ur so called country...look up the stern gang, who was there leader way back when...what crimes did he do??? What was his request for his 21st bday gift???? Tell us all, were dying to know.....in no way am I anti-Semitic, I'm anti-Zionist... Anyone who calls people who disagree with fake israel isn't "anti-Semitic", look up the real meaning. A semit is someone from that land, so ur so called cousins u slaughter are Semites so I guess since ur in idf and have killed palestinians I'm assuming, then that would make u rafie an anti-Semite....wake up
  • AnonAnon Posts: 11,175
    I find it hard to defend a person that plants a bomb on a civilian bus. But hey that's just me.
  • ogre1213ogre1213 Posts: 400
    JB811 wrote:
    I find it hard to defend a person that plants a bomb on a civilian bus. But hey that's just me.

    amen
    Some die just to live
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    JB811 wrote:
    I find it hard to defend a person that plants a bomb on a civilian bus. But hey that's just me.

    who did this? i don't know if this is a generalization or what. nobody is asking you to defend anybody.

    i wonder if you can defend the use of phosphorus rounds and depleted uranium?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • "An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" -Gandhi

    So much pain, so much violence and bloodshed, when will it end? When will we, as a human race, wake up and realize that we are all One connected consciousness? That to hurt, maim, attack, or kill any single piece of the whole is only a self-inflicted abuse? When will we surrender to the infinite power of Love as an answer to our desperate cries for Peace and Harmony?

    I don't know... I hope we, as a collective, understand the consequences of our actions soon......
    "Let the sunshine burn away my mask" -PJ

    www.ivaw.org

  • JB811 wrote:
    I find it hard to defend a person that plants a bomb on a civilian bus. But hey that's just me.
    i find it hard to defend a foreign power that continues to ensure daily inhumane injustices against 1.5 million ordinary palestinian people. the same people who have already suffered 60 years of physical and psychological violence and oppression.

    as i already stated in another post, a foreign power that violently occupies their homeland, bulldozes their houses at gun-point, uproots their olive groves at gun-point, sets up hundreds of armed checkpoints to disrupt normal life, batters down villagers front doors in the dead of night at gun-point, builds an illegal ‘separation’ wall to annex their territory, steals their water and isolate their communities, builds illegal settlements and blockades exports and imports to cause economic ruin.....

    i also find it hard to defend the US, who, by the way, have given more money to Israel than to any other country, and gives one-third of the American foreign-aid budget to Israel, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes.

    no doubt you are also aware, the money we send is used to fund those bombs Israel used to slaughter some of the 1400 Palestinians murdered in January this year. they had our name on them. love from america. we should be more ashamed than usual.

    end the blockade of Gaza. free Palestine. boycott Israel.
  • "An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" -Gandhi

    So much pain, so much violence and bloodshed, when will it end? When will we, as a human race, wake up and realize that we are all One connected consciousness? That to hurt, maim, attack, or kill any single piece of the whole is only a self-inflicted abuse? When will we surrender to the infinite power of Love as an answer to our desperate cries for Peace and Harmony?

    I don't know... I hope we, as a collective, understand the consequences of our actions soon......
    AMEN!!!!!!
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    "An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" -Gandhi
    This quote is applicable to cases involving revenge. How is revenge relevant to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? This is a conflict based on the fact that Israel refuses to adhere to any international and humanitarian laws.
  • rafierafie Posts: 2,160
    "An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" -Gandhi

    So much pain, so much violence and bloodshed, when will it end? When will we, as a human race, wake up and realize that we are all One connected consciousness? That to hurt, maim, attack, or kill any single piece of the whole is only a self-inflicted abuse? When will we surrender to the infinite power of Love as an answer to our desperate cries for Peace and Harmony?

    I don't know... I hope we, as a collective, understand the consequences of our actions soon......

    This is the smartest thing that anyone here has said!
    Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!

    2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
    2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
    2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
  • I find it interesting that clearly altruistic people can see this thing so one sided, and only seem to focus on the transgressions of one group while completely ignoring or rationalizing the brutalities of the other. Not to be coy, I'm primarily referring to the pro-Palestinian folks here, but I feel this just as strongly about many pro-Israeli people who I've met elsewhere.
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  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited December 2009
    rafie wrote:
    The problem with going to the 1967 borders is that "the west bank" was Jordanian territory back then.

    Righteo:

    http://www.danielpipes.org/298/is-jordan-palestine
    '...The sum of this complex tale is that Jordan was part of the Palestine Mandate for a mere eight months, from July 1920 to March 1921. Even that is vitiated by two facts: the League of Nations formally bestowed the mandatory responsibility on Great Britain only in July 1922, making the eight month period legally irrelevant; and the British disposed of almost no authority in Transjordan during those months when they theoretically held it as part of Palestine. In fact, the east bank lacked any ruler; Paris stayed away, London did not seek direct control, and the Hashemites had other priorities. "At that moment," reported Herbert Samuel, the British High Commissioner of Palestine, "Trans-Jordan was left politically derelict."

    A few months of rule that was neither de facto nor de jure is hardly reason, seventy years later, to call Jordan a part of Palestine. Besides, it is preposterous to base today's major decisions of war and peace on the transient interests of the British Empire after World War I. That Jordan was briefly part of the Palestine Mandate does not establish a vital link; it merely recalls a historical curiosity. As L. Dean Brown observes, "Jordan is Palestine only in the sense that Nebraska, which was part of the Louisiana Purchase, is still Louisiana."
    rafie wrote:
    As for stealing more land, Israels borders have gotten smaller since the 1967 war

    We're talking about the West Bank and Gaza here, not the handing back of the Sinai which you stole from Egypt in the 1967 war.

    rafie wrote:
    former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak offered Yassir Arafat over 90% of the west bank during peace talks in the year 2000.

    Yeah, sure he did. This is what was offered - it resembles a piece of Swiss cheese: http://www.unitedmethodistdivestment.co ... Israel.jpg



    http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e14120.htm
    U.S. "Enhancing Terror"

    Interview with Noam Chomsky



    Noam Chomsky: The Barak proposal in Camp David, the Barak-Clinton proposal, in the United States, I didn't check the Canadian media, in the United States you cannot find a map, which is the most important thing of course, check in Canada, see if you can find a map. You go to Israel, you can find a map, you go to scholarly sources, you can find a map. Here's what you find when you look at a map: You find that this generous, magnanimous proposal provided Israel with a salient east of Jerusalem, which was established primarily by the Labor government, in order to bisect the West Bank. That salient goes almost to Jericho, breaks the West Bank into two cantons, then there's a second salient to the North, going to the Israeli settlement of Ariel, which bisects the Northern part into two cantons.

    So, we've got three cantons in the West Bank, virtually separated. All three of them are separated from a small area of East Jerusalem which is the center of Palestinian commercial and cultural life and of communications. So you have four cantons, all separated from the West, from Gaza, so that's five cantons, all surrounded by Israeli settlements, infrastructure, development and so on, which also incidentally guarantee Israel control of the water resources.

    This does not rise to the level of South Africa 40 years ago when South Africa established the Bantustans. That's the generous, magnanimous offer. And there's a good reason why maps weren't shown. Because as soon as you look at a map, you see it.


    Solomon: All right, but let me just say, Arafat didn't even bother putting a counter-proposal on the table.

    Chomsky: Oh, that's not true.

    Solomon: They negotiated that afterwards.

    Chomsky: That's not true.

    Solomon: I guess my question is, if they don't continue to negotiate -

    Chomsky: They did. That's false.

    Solomon: That's false?

    Chomsky: Not only is it false, but not a single participant in the meetings says it. That's a media fabrication . . .

    Solomon: That Arafat didn't put a counter-proposal . . .

    Chomsky: Yeah, they had a proposal. They proposed the international consensus, which has been accepted by the entire world, the Arab states, the PLO. They proposed a settlement which is in accordance with an overwhelming international consensus, and is blocked by the United States.

    Solomon: If you don't talk -

    Chomsky: Yeah, they did talk. They talked. They proposed that.

    Solomon: Once they walked out of Camp David,

    Chomsky: They didn't walk out of Camp David . . .

    Solomon: Both camps . . .

    Chomsky: No, no, both sides walked out of Camp David.

    Solomon: All right, once Camp David disbands, the radicals take over the process, my question is, how do . . .

    Chomsky: No, no, the radicals didn't take over the process.

    Solomon: You don't think that the Sharon, the right-wing Israeli . . .

    Chomsky: No, Barak stayed in power for months. Barak cancelled it. That's how it ended.

    Solomon: OK. The problem that people look at now in the Middle East is they say it's spun out of control because the radicals are on both sides now.

    Chomsky: No, there's three sides. You're forgetting the United States. The radicals in the United States who have blocked this proposal for 25 years, continue to block it.

    Solomon: How do we get back, now, there's so much distrust?

    Chomsky: The first way we get back is by trying the experiment of minimal honesty. If we try that experiment of minimal honesty, we look at our own position and we discover what I just described. That for 25 years, the United States has blocked the political settlement, which is supported by the majority of the American population and by the entire world, except for Israel...'
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • rafierafie Posts: 2,160
    1) I never said that "Jordan is Palestine", simply because there never was a "Palestinian country". The U.N. decision on the 29th of November 1947 offered the solution of 2 states for 2 people. That decision was based on the population spread of both people around the land at the time, having Jerusalem as an international zone. The Jewish leadership at the time were willing to accept that offer even though it would have left Israel at a military disadvantage (the jews would be on the low land while the arabs would be on the high land). The arab leadership at the time declined the offer and instead started war with the jewish community (there was still not a state of Israel) which lasted over a year. In this war, The jews were attacked by numerous arab countries at all borders. As far as the arabs were concerned, the goal of that war was to eliminate the jewish settlement in the middle east. 1% of the entire jewish population in Israel was killed during that war and Israel was founded during that war. When the cease fire was signed and borders were drawn, the west bank was declared part of Jordan.

    2)
    Byrnzie wrote:
    We're talking about the West Bank and Gaza here, not the handing back of the Sinai which you stole from Egypt in the 1967 war.
    I addressed both the west bank and gaza in my previous posts providing facts that on both fronts Israel has unilaterally handed land over to Palestinian control. Besides that, In every war since the dawn of time one of the results is border changes. Sinai was not "stolen", it was won as part of the war and stayed in Israeli hands as part of the cease fire agreement with Egypt

    3) You can quote internet sources all day long, but fact is, the people who write the articles (on both sides) are for the most part reporters who have their own agendas and not historians. My arguments here are based on years of academic study (I have a B.A. in Jewish history and am a history teacher) and the fact that I am pretty sure that I am one of the few, if not the only one, in this debate that actually lives in the region and has this conflict as part of my every day life. The Palestinian - Israeli conflict does not have a simple and easy solution. The only way to achieve real and lasting peace is through real peace talks that bind both sides. Israel has already proven in the past that she is ready and willing to make sacrifices for peace, but only if it is a real peace that will not in the future endanger her existence.
    Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!

    2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
    2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
    2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    A history teacher??? U????? Man u have no fucken clue bout ur own so-called country. No such thing as Palestine??? Really??? Open up a bible mr history teacher, does it say the land of Israel or the land of Palestine??? U have no clue bout ur own religion too. Ur own religion states that ur people will never have a country until the messiah returns....am I rite or wrong???? Isn't that what true real Jews believe??? And funny how everything I said bout ur past prime ministers were all terrerists, u remained silent on it..guess the people of israel believe Ariel Sharon is the messiah cuz ur still in the land of the Palestinians...a history teacher??? Wow, I can't imagine the lies and propoganda u have taught and spread. Like I said before, I'll go head to head with u mr teacher about ur so called humane country. What a complete fucken joke. People that do what u and ur idf and ur leaders do like dropping bombs on schools, slapping old palestinian grandmas, kicking little children, shooting humans who carry white flags down, WTF man are u fucken serious??? U wonder why the entire world seems anti-Semitic to ur country, can almost the entire world minus the USA be wrong??? Only reason ur so called country is untouchable is because of ur powerful lobby group. God help u guys if u run out of money but hey it's almost new years and what comes to Israel on new years???-9 BILLION dollars that's 9,000,000,000 from the land of the greed and the home of the slaves....thanx for a great history lesson teach, to bad u have no fucken clue about what it is u teach... Good luck to u

    oh and one more thing, what's the name of the trees u guys keep planting everywhere and what's the reasonfor it....I know, do u know???
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    edited December 2009
    rafie wrote:
    (I have a B.A. in Jewish history and am a history teacher).

    Doesn't mean anything. History is taught the way the country/government, etc. want it taught (at what ever level). You learn what is in your textbooks (sort of). I lived in various countries, and the history of one of them was taught in so many different ways. What is a hero for one country is a vilain in the other.....
    Post edited by redrock on
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Here's another history lesson rafie, what did ur IDF do to the USS Liberty??? How come that wasn't taught in history boys and girls of America??? Look for the answers, they're all there, u just have to read between the lines and lies...
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited December 2009
    rafie wrote:
    The U.N. decision on the 29th of November 1947 offered the solution of 2 states for 2 people. That decision was based on the population spread of both people around the land at the time, having Jerusalem as an international zone. The Jewish leadership at the time were willing to accept that offer even though it would have left Israel at a military disadvantage (the jews would be on the low land while the arabs would be on the high land). The arab leadership at the time declined the offer and instead started war with the jewish community (there was still not a state of Israel) which lasted over a year. In this war, The jews were attacked by numerous arab countries at all borders.

    Except it didn't happen quite like that now did it?

    The Jewish leadership had no intention of accepting the U.N partition plan. They only agreed to publicly accept it in light of the fact that it had been rejected by the Arabs - and rightly so, considering that the Jews, who owned less than six percent of the land and comprised no more that one-third of the population, were to be given more than half of the overall territory. The fact that the Arabs rejected it gave the Zionist leadership the platform from which to pretend to be in compliance with the U.N, whereas behind the scenes they had already decided upon conquering all of Palestine from the Jordan to the sea.



    From Jewish historian Illan Pappe in his book 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine':



    The expected Arab and Palestinian rejection of the plan allowed Ben-Gurion and the Zionist leadership to claim that the U.N plan was a dead letter the day it was accepted - apart, of course, from the clauses that recognised the legality of the Jewish state in Palestine. It's borders, given the Palestinian rejection, said Ben-Gurion, 'will be determined by force and not by the partition resolution.' As would be the fate of the Arabs living in it.

    "The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
    -- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.
    rafie wrote:
    I addressed both the west bank and gaza in my previous posts providing facts that on both fronts Israel has unilaterally handed land over to Palestinian control.


    Care to provide an example?
    rafie wrote:
    The Palestinian - Israeli conflict does not have a simple and easy solution.

    Yes it does. Israel can begin abiding by international law and the will of the international community - excluding the U.S - and abide by U.N resolution 242.

    rafie wrote:
    The only way to achieve real and lasting peace is through real peace talks that bind both sides.

    These so-called peace talks are just a stalling tactic and have nothing to do wth peace.

    An interesting article here from a Jewish Rabbi and journalist on this subject:

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-sieg ... ocess-scam
    The Great Middle East Peace Process Scam
    Henry Siegman - 16 August 2007


    '...all previous peace initiatives have got nowhere for a reason that neither Bush nor the EU has had the political courage to acknowledge. That reason is the consensus reached long ago by Israel’s decision-making elites that Israel will never allow the emergence of a Palestinian state which denies it effective military and economic control of the West Bank. To be sure, Israel would allow – indeed, it would insist on – the creation of a number of isolated enclaves that Palestinians could call a state, but only in order to prevent the creation of a binational state in which Palestinians would be the majority.

    The Middle East peace process may well be the most spectacular deception in modern diplomatic history. Since the failed Camp David summit of 2000, and actually well before it, Israel’s interest in a peace process – other than for the purpose of obtaining Palestinian and international acceptance of the status quo – has been a fiction that has served primarily to provide cover for its systematic confiscation of Palestinian land and an occupation whose goal, according to the former IDF chief of staff Moshe Ya’alon, is ‘to sear deep into the consciousness of Palestinians that they are a defeated people’. In his reluctant embrace of the Oslo Accords, and his distaste for the settlers, Yitzhak Rabin may have been the exception to this, but even he did not entertain a return of Palestinian territory beyond the so-called Allon Plan, which allowed Israel to retain the Jordan Valley and other parts of the West Bank...'
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • "An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" -Gandhi

    So much pain, so much violence and bloodshed, when will it end? When will we, as a human race, wake up and realize that we are all One connected consciousness? That to hurt, maim, attack, or kill any single piece of the whole is only a self-inflicted abuse? When will we surrender to the infinite power of Love as an answer to our desperate cries for Peace and Harmony?

    I don't know... I hope we, as a collective, understand the consequences of our actions soon......

    I think humans are evolving extremely fast with the explosion of technology, ability to know anything anytime with a click of a button, ability to travel anywhere on the planet, exploration of the massive (universe) and tiny (atom) which leads us to conclusions that prove what you say about our "connected consciousness."

    Some people feel incredibly moved by what you say and know it is true. Some people read it and call you a 'hippy' or just dismiss it as new-age jibberish.

    Maybe our rapid evolution will lead to the enlightenment that you describe - to be known by every single person. An evolution purely of the mind and spirit. Peace.

    Maybe I'm being too optimistic...

    Part of me wants to think that is what 2012 is... the end of the world as we know it but a transcendence to a higher state of consciousness as a life form.

    I'll keep dreaming...

    (edit): my attempt to describe this is like using a screwdriver to cut roast beef.
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Sounds like sunshines been reading some David icke :D
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