What's wrong with the US you ask?

OffHeGoes29

polaris_x wrote:

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

is it safe to say that it is the ability to get a job and accumulate wealth to buy things and the freedom to do so that qualifies as the american dream?

Yep, thats it.

soo ... what if i told you that ability comes at the expense of war in foreign lands, exploited workers in developing countries and at the destruction of the planet?

Yep, thats part of the package. And don't think you're not part of the problem up there in Canada.

polaris_x

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

soo ... what if i told you that ability comes at the expense of war in foreign lands, exploited workers in developing countries and at the destruction of the planet?

Yep, thats part of the package. And don't think you're not part of the problem up there in Canada.[/quote]

i never said i wasn't ... so, like we've been saying ... ultimately you don't care ...

inmytree

polaris_x wrote:

i never said i wasn't ... so, like we've been saying ... ultimately you don't care ...

I'd be willing to bet OHG29 cares...perhaps OHG29 may not care about the same things you do...

FiveB247x

The founding of this country has very little to do with its current state as we see it.. And to be completely honest, the people who founded this nation were implicit to demand that church be separated from state for good reason as the places they fled from, religiously persecuted. Now let's fast forward to your comments as they're pretty hypocritical, because the Puritans had many good moral traits and influenced the founding period, but as most religions has shown throughout history, everything is done in gods name, except following through the tenets of morality. A little something called the Salem Witch Trials will carried out and I'd hardly call it a bastion of morality or something to emulate. Even with all that said, we're talking about something almost 300 years ago, and quite frankly it has very little to do with the current state of affairs. I believe in causes and what our founding fathers based and intended our nation to become, but I look around and it's hardly recognizable in any respect. Whether its the system being broken or the citizens fall from grace... it all adds up to one thing - a failed experiment because of self-interest, greed, and corruption enabled by lack of care or participation. This is the American experience and our country's current state of affairs.

Also, you can call me a cynic or negative, but I don't deal in illusion or dellusion. Yes there are good people doing good things out there, but it takes more than that to fix things. Where you're hopeful this will turn the corner in building a better future, I do not see it. I wish I did, but I just don't.

soulsinging wrote:

clearly you don't know much about the puritans and calvinists that largely founded this country. our nation acts exactly as our heritage would lead you to expect. as to us not having basic necessities, i think at their core most americans acknowledge that they have it pretty good here. as pftclft pointed out, there are many resources out there, even for those in the most dire straits here. that is not so everywhere in the world. why are people not demanding more? perhaps a bit of perspective and realizing we're already blessed beyond the wildest dreams of most of the world and perhaps also a lot of the puritan american spirit of hard work. like it or not, that's just who we are as a country. it's who we always have been. it's not going to change anytime soon. the fact that you don't like that philosophy doesn't mean we're headed for some sort of apocalypse as a nation.

polaris_x

inmytree wrote:

I'd be willing to bet OHG29 cares...perhaps OHG29 may not care about the same things you do...

i'm sure he cares about a lot of things and i'm not here to try to make him look selfish or anything ... the reality is that he reflects a lot of US ...

the simple matter tho is that i can name several other issues that require at the very least citizenry engagement and the response will likely be the same ... it is what it is ... what i don't understand is why some are getting defensive about it ... the truth sucks sometimes

inmytree

polaris_x wrote:

inmytree wrote:

I'd be willing to bet OHG29 cares...perhaps OHG29 may not care about the same things you do...

i'm sure he cares about a lot of things and i'm not here to try to make him look selfish or anything ... the reality is that he reflects a lot of US ...

the simple matter tho is that i can name several other issues that require at the very least citizenry engagement and the response will likely be the same ... it is what it is ... what i don't understand is why some are getting defensive about it ... the truth sucks sometimes

who's getting defensive...? and I disagree with you when you say your not trying to make anyone look selfish...why else claim someone doesn't "care" when you don't really know...

you claim the truth sucks...who's truth are you talking about...? I find it amusing that some want to project there own issues on others and when the others don't take up said cause, suddenly that person doesn't care...

FiveB247x

Education levels are terribly low. How many millions of citizens don't have healthcare? How many homeless or people living in poverty? How many are working more and receiving less? Our nations security sucks, yet we continue feeding the war on terror which makes the world more unsafe (home and abroad). We have a growing population of people who aren't involved, don't vote, don't stay aware of the world and issues around then. Tell me when to stop... seriously... but this is what you claim we are projecting onto others? Seriously. You commentary is exactly what is wrong with our nation - people aren't willing to be honest about what's necessary to fix the basic problems we face. We can't be honest, don't want to care or look in the mirror and you're only response is that because diagnosis and recognition is the first and main way to fix any problem, you pass it off as negative or out of touch or projecting problems onto others? Really? Just another clear example of what's screwed up about our nation - people prefer to live in illusions for their own benefit rather than do anything.

inmytree wrote:

who's getting defensive...? and I disagree with you when you say your not trying to make anyone look selfish...why else claim someone doesn't "care" when you don't really know...

you claim the truth sucks...who's truth are you talking about...? I find it amusing that some want to project there own issues on others and when the others don't take up said cause, suddenly that person doesn't care...

polaris_x

inmytree wrote:

who's getting defensive...? and I disagree with you when you say your not trying to make anyone look selfish...why else claim someone doesn't "care" when you don't really know...

you claim the truth sucks...who's truth are you talking about...? I find it amusing that some want to project there own issues on others and when the others don't take up said cause, suddenly that person doesn't care...

i would suggest that your response is defensive ... your earlier post to me asked me what the heck i protest about etc ... those are the kind of responses of people who are on defensive and are looking to tear down someone else for no other reason than to divert from the issue at hand ...

i already said that he represents a lot of us ... this thread is about what is wrong with the US ... it is my contention that people don't care - he has pretty much admitted to that ... i've never not included myself as part of the problem ...

if you think there is nothing wrong with the US - that is totally your perogative and your own truth i suppose ... i disagree - there is plenty wrong ... and my truth points to the people ...

OffHeGoes29

inmytree wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

i never said i wasn't ... so, like we've been saying ... ultimately you don't care ...

I'd be willing to bet OHG29 cares...perhaps OHG29 may not care about the same things you do...

Nope, pretty heartless....polaris is right on.

inmytree

FiveB247x wrote:

Education levels are terribly low. How many millions of citizens don't have healthcare? How many homeless or people living in poverty? How many are working more and receiving less? Our nations security sucks, yet we continue feeding the war on terror which makes the world more unsafe (home and abroad). We have a growing population of people who aren't involved, don't vote, don't stay aware of the world and issues around then. Tell me when to stop... seriously... but this is what you claim we are projecting onto others? Seriously. You commentary is exactly what is wrong with our nation - people aren't willing to be honest about what's necessary to fix the basic problems we face. We can't be honest, don't want to care or look in the mirror and you're only response is that because diagnosis and recognition is the first and main way to fix any problem, you pass it off as negative or out of touch or projecting problems onto others? Really? Just another clear example of what's screwed up about our nation - people prefer to live in illusions for their own benefit rather than do anything.

inmytree wrote:

who's getting defensive...? and I disagree with you when you say your not trying to make anyone look selfish...why else claim someone doesn't "care" when you don't really know...

you claim the truth sucks...who's truth are you talking about...? I find it amusing that some want to project there own issues on others and when the others don't take up said cause, suddenly that person doesn't care...

and yet you live on...how do you do it in such horrible times...?

Tell us, since you're so perfect...since your worldview is the only just and righteous worldview here...

I've been nothing but honest...I contend one can only control themselves...that's it...one can chose to sit and wallow, to complain, to feel sorry for themselves, to project their depression onto others, to hate the world outside...

or one can understand a perfect world based on how one defines it...one can control their own choices without worry...one can focus on the good rather than embrace the bad...

I say good luck to you and your righteousness...it seems to be really working for you...

inmytree

polaris_x wrote:

inmytree wrote:

who's getting defensive...? and I disagree with you when you say your not trying to make anyone look selfish...why else claim someone doesn't "care" when you don't really know...

you claim the truth sucks...who's truth are you talking about...? I find it amusing that some want to project there own issues on others and when the others don't take up said cause, suddenly that person doesn't care...

i would suggest that your response is defensive ... your earlier post to me asked me what the heck i protest about etc ... those are the kind of responses of people who are on defensive and are looking to tear down someone else for no other reason than to divert from the issue at hand ...

i already said that he represents a lot of us ... this thread is about what is wrong with the US ... it is my contention that people don't care - he has pretty much admitted to that ... i've never not included myself as part of the problem ...

if you think there is nothing wrong with the US - that is totally your perogative and your own truth i suppose ... i disagree - there is plenty wrong ... and my truth points to the people ...

ha ha...yeah, I guess my responding to you in kind is "defensive", well, as you say, that's your prerogative...I say get some thicker skin...

sorry I asked you a question about what you are protesting...I'm sure you feel bad about asking others "what it would take for them to revolt"...I guess some talk a big game about changing the world, but don't really want to do anything about it....

can you do me a favor and show me where I said the US was perfect...because I missed that, and if I said that, I was wrong to do so...

seriously, the drama kings and queens in this thread are amusing...

inmytree

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

inmytree wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

i never said i wasn't ... so, like we've been saying ... ultimately you don't care ...

I'd be willing to bet OHG29 cares...perhaps OHG29 may not care about the same things you do...

Nope, pretty heartless....polaris is right on.

fair enough... :thumbup:

FiveB247x

See here's where you're wrong... I'm not saying I'm better than anyone or I have all the answers or my view point is the basis of perfection. But the issues I've mentioned are basic necessities for people. Perhaps you don't mind living in a nation that accepts these misgivings and wrongdoings, but I do. And the fact that we take it for granted says alot about our nation and society. It's got nothing to do with right or wrong, left or right, it's merely good and bad. I don't project depression or anything similiar, I call it as I see it. Most wouldn't think it, but I'm an extremely positive person in life, but that doesn't mean I let my heart above my head in thinking either. As a whole, we are a society with many problems and we enable them to continue and we sit on our hands or zip our lips....and it adds up to one things, we don't care enough to fix them.

inmytree wrote:

and yet you live on...how do you do it in such horrible times...?

Tell us, since you're so perfect...since your worldview is the only just and righteous worldview here...

I've been nothing but honest...I contend one can only control themselves...that's it...one can chose to sit and wallow, to complain, to feel sorry for themselves, to project their depression onto others, to hate the world outside...

or one can understand a perfect world based on how one defines it...one can control their own choices without worry...one can focus on the good rather than embrace the bad...

I say good luck to you and your righteousness...it seems to be really working for you...

Jeanwah

FiveB247x wrote:

See here's where you're wrong... I'm not saying I'm better than anyone or I have all the answers or my view point is the basis of perfection. But the issues I've mentioned are basic necessities for people. Perhaps you don't mind living in a nation that accepts these misgivings and wrongdoings, but I do. And the fact that we take it for granted says alot about our nation and society. It's got nothing to do with right or wrong, left or right, it's merely good and bad. I don't project depression or anything similiar, I call it as I see it. Most wouldn't think it, but I'm an extremely positive person in life, but that doesn't mean I let my heart above my head in thinking either. As a whole, we are a society with many problems and we enable them to continue and we sit on our hands or zip our lips....and it adds up to one things, we don't care enough to fix them.

Then you can answer my question, which you seemingly avoided...What are your solutions?

Jeanwah wrote:

Here's a challenge for you -- for all the problems you see, try coming up with solutions. Because stating the obvious doesn't really help matters.
I'm a natural pessimist and there's plenty to claim what's wrong with society. I do it all the time, but I try and balance that with working for the greater good, keeping hope and seeing the good in people, as well as focusing on solutions rather than the problems.

FiveB247x

There are plenty of solutions to these problems...whether it's education, healthcare or poverty.. .but they all involve people drastically changing how they live and act in the world around them. It takes a village you know... but what's really the point of detailing plans which no one cares to do?? No point in talking in hypotheticals.

Jeanwah wrote:

Then you can answer my question, which you seemingly avoided...What are your solutions?

Jeanwah wrote:

Here's a challenge for you -- for all the problems you see, try coming up with solutions. Because stating the obvious doesn't really help matters.
I'm a natural pessimist and there's plenty to claim what's wrong with society. I do it all the time, but I try and balance that with working for the greater good, keeping hope and seeing the good in people, as well as focusing on solutions rather than the problems.

Jeanwah

FiveB247x wrote:

There are plenty of solutions to these problems...whether it's education, healthcare or poverty.. .but they all involve people drastically changing how they live and act in the world around them. It takes a village you know... but what's really the point of detailing plans which no one cares to do?? No point in talking in hypotheticals.

Jeanwah wrote:

Then you can answer my question, which you seemingly avoided...What are your solutions?

Jeanwah wrote:

Here's a challenge for you -- for all the problems you see, try coming up with solutions. Because stating the obvious doesn't really help matters.
I'm a natural pessimist and there's plenty to claim what's wrong with society. I do it all the time, but I try and balance that with working for the greater good, keeping hope and seeing the good in people, as well as focusing on solutions rather than the problems.

It doesn't just take a village, it takes one person, and then grows. It can be done, starting with you, but you're too cynical and dismissive to even begin. That's the problem; you didn't offer a solution, you offered a reason to not even try.

soulsinging

FiveB247x wrote:

Education levels are terribly low. How many millions of citizens don't have healthcare? How many homeless or people living in poverty? How many are working more and receiving less? Our nations security sucks, yet we continue feeding the war on terror which makes the world more unsafe (home and abroad). We have a growing population of people who aren't involved, don't vote, don't stay aware of the world and issues around then.

Compare all of those signs of DOOM for us to the average daily life of someone in Africa, most of South America, Asia, etc... there may be room for improvement in those areas, but given that there are billions of people out there that would kill for even the imperfect resources we have now, I can't say I'm surprised that there's not some huge groundswell of support for a dramatic and paradigmatic revolution in american life.

FiveB247x

Here's why you are incorrect. The main and major problems we have are all correctable. Perfect example, the environment. Now obviously we can't control everything to help make a cleaner, livable planet, but there's a ton we can control an do to alter mankinds harmful practices. These aren't hard things to adjust, we simply choose to not address. Whether it's car emissions, polution, consumption, waste or whatever the topic.. We as humans willingly decide to not alter our behavior even though they effect everyone (people who do wrong or not) because we'd prefer to keep things as they are and hope things work out in the end. There's tons of obvious and simple solutions to these problems, we simply choose not to employ them because it would alter our current comfortable and lax lifes as they are now. Dry and SUV which is wasteful of gas and high on emissions, who cares, let the next guy alter his practices, or even better yet, who cares if the richest industrialized nations are ruining the world for the poorest by climate and polution, I want it my way instead. This is the mentality of our society and nation. How do you fix that? It's like dealing with a spoiled child. I want, I want, me, me me. You want a solution to the problems - perhaps people should adjust their attitudes as a result of accepting responsibility of their actions in the world around them and make themselves aware to be good participants in the nation and world around them. As a whole, people do not care to do this, so everyone suffers as a result. That's not cynicism, not negativity or depression, that's the reality of our nation and world. Also, as someone just stated, simply because we may be better off than other places, doesn't mean we should just accept poor results. No one sends their child to school to get D+ or C- grades, so why accept these results? That's far more negative an attitude than anything I could say or have said.

Jeanwah wrote:

It doesn't just take a village, it takes one person, and then grows. It can be done, starting with you, but you're too cynical and dismissive to even begin. That's the problem; you didn't offer a solution, you offered a reason to not even try.

Jeanwah

FiveB247x wrote:

Here's why you are incorrect. The main and major problems we have are all correctable. Perfect example, the environment. Now obviously we can't control everything to help make a cleaner, livable planet, but there's a ton we can control an do to alter mankinds harmful practices. These aren't hard things to adjust, we simply choose to not address. Whether it's car emissions, polution, consumption, waste or whatever the topic.. We as humans willingly decide to not alter our behavior even though they effect everyone (people who do wrong or not) because we'd prefer to keep things as they are and hope things work out in the end. There's tons of obvious and simple solutions to these problems, we simply choose not to employ them because it would alter our current comfortable and lax lifes as they are now. Dry and SUV which is wasteful of gas and high on emissions, who cares, let the next guy alter his practices, or even better yet, who cares if the richest industrialized nations are ruining the world for the poorest by climate and polution, I want it my way instead. This is the mentality of our society and nation. How do you fix that? It's like dealing with a spoiled child. I want, I want, me, me me. You want a solution to the problems - perhaps people should adjust their attitudes as a result of accepting responsibility of their actions in the world around them and make themselves aware to be good participants in the nation and world around them. As a whole, people do not care to do this, so everyone suffers as a result. That's not cynicism, not negativity or depression, that's the reality of our nation and world. Also, as someone just stated, simply because we may be better off than other places, doesn't mean we should just accept poor results. No one sends their child to school to get D+ or C- grades, so why accept these results? That's far more negative an attitude than anything I could say or have said.

Jeanwah wrote:

It doesn't just take a village, it takes one person, and then grows. It can be done, starting with you, but you're too cynical and dismissive to even begin. That's the problem; you didn't offer a solution, you offered a reason to not even try.

Yet, again, I didn't ask you for reality, I asked you what you're going to do about solving it. YOU. I don't want to hear that you think it'll take a whole village of people, because that's brushing it off and saying it's "not my fault". Solving problems start with ONE PERSON. Be that person and come up with solutions rather than saying collectively we need to do something. Lead the way rather than sitting back and saying it's everyone else problem.

soulsinging

Jeanwah wrote:

Yet, again, I didn't ask you for reality, I asked you what you're going to do about solving it. YOU. I don't want to hear that you think it'll take a whole village of people, because that's brushing it off and saying it's "not my fault". Solving problems start with ONE PERSON. Be that person and come up with solutions rather than saying collectively we need to do something. Lead the way rather than sitting back and saying it's everyone else problem.

that's what's been boggling my mind this whole time... how can he not see that the stuff he's posting here makes him exactly like all of the people he is complaining about? "it's too hard to change anything without an army of people, so i wont even try to change or inspire said army of people."