bottomline....the vast majority of people tend to couple up eventually and procreate. not all, but even today...most. this will always have some effect on other relationships, and it doesn't have to be viewed as dire. it's simply reality.
That's actually not true statistically speaking. The number of never-married adults in the United States is growing exponentially every year, and the "vast majority" of single (really single) people say they are not looking for a partner. Furthermore, people are spending far more of their lives singles than they ever have in this past. This is due to getting married later and living longer, as well as divorce. If I remember correctly, close to 100 million Americans are single. All of these statistics are publicly available on single advocacy sites and from some academic books, but I can't look up the numbers right now. It's actually becoming very inaccurate to say the vast majority of people eventually couple up. The numbers are even greater in Western Europe, so I've heard.
i know the numbers are chaniging...but the numbers still have not changed to make single the norm. most people still choose to couple, most people still choose to have children. how long they stay coupled, or with the same person, numerous people, etc, etc...always shifting. however, i do believe the #s still reflect the majority being coupled. and i think most especially in say the 30 to 60 range. 20s and then older than 60s....i think are far different. aren't there like something like 300 million americans presently? so yea, one third single. sure, some i imagine are children ....but still....amongst adults, coupling up still appears the 'choice.' that's all. and hey, if more and more people choose to stay single, cool...then they will choose different ways of living, many do right now. it';s all good. point is, being rspectful of others' choices...and if you choose to be single and your best friend chooses to marry and have kids...you can still have an awesome friendship, but you simply cannot expect to get the exact same amount of her time, no matter how much she makes you a priority, that's all. it's simple mathematics. there are only 24 hours in a day, we all have demands on our time. add in a spouse, children, yes...welcome demands...but demands none the less. it's mutual respect amongst friends that counts most.
so yea...even in the OP. maybe his friend is a real dick and not a real friend, or maybe drop just needs to see he's in the honeymoon phase of his new girl, and 2 weeks from now they'll be out again having beers and sharing laughs as they always do. friends respect those choices. that's all. nothing stays exactl y the same, always...and that isn't always a bad thing either.
bottomline....the vast majority of people tend to couple up eventually and procreate. not all, but even today...most. this will always have some effect on other relationships, and it doesn't have to be viewed as dire. it's simply reality.
That's actually not true statistically speaking. The number of never-married adults in the United States is growing exponentially every year, and the "vast majority" of single (really single) people say they are not looking for a partner. Furthermore, people are spending far more of their lives singles than they ever have in this past. This is due to getting married later and living longer, as well as divorce. If I remember correctly, close to 100 million Americans are single. All of these statistics are publicly available on single advocacy sites and from some academic books, but I can't look up the numbers right now. It's actually becoming very inaccurate to say the vast majority of people eventually couple up. The numbers are even greater in Western Europe, so I've heard.
i know the numbers are chaniging...but the numbers still have not changed to make single the norm. most people still choose to couple, most people still choose to have children. how long they stay coupled, or with the same person, numerous people, etc, etc...always shifting. however, i do believe the #s still reflect the majority being coupled. and i think most especially in say the 30 to 60 range. 20s and then older than 60s....i think are far different. aren't there like something like 300 million americans presently? so yea, one third single. sure, some i imagine are children ....but still....amongst adults, coupling up still appears the 'choice.' that's all. and hey, if more and more people choose to stay single, cool...then they will choose different ways of living, many do right now. it';s all good. point is, being rspectful of others' choices...and if you choose to be single and your best friend chooses to marry and have kids...you can still have an awesome friendship, but you simply cannot expect to get the exact same amount of her time, no matter how much she makes you a priority, that's all. it's simple mathematics. there are only 24 hours in a day, we all have demands on our time. add in a spouse, children, yes...welcome demands...but demands none the less. it's mutual respect amongst friends that counts most.
so yea...even in the OP. maybe his friend is a real dick and not a real friend, or maybe drop just needs to see he's in the honeymoon phase of his new girl, and 2 weeks from now they'll be out again having beers and sharing laughs as they always do. friends respect those choices. that's all. nothing stays exactl y the same, always...and that isn't always a bad thing either.
Yes it is still the majority, in the United States anyway. But it's not the "vast" majority anymore. These numbers are important for political reasons, so it is important not to understate them. I think far more interesting that fact everyone, whether married or coupled or otherwise, will spend more of their lives singles than ever before. This is so important with respect to the question at hand. It makes it all that more important to maintain your friendships and the other relationships in your life.
I think it is very important for both coupled and single people to read the literature that's out there to learn the truth about the enormity of the role these issues play in our society, including both the laws and the culture. There's a few really great books out there and a ton of blogs, even political organizations that advocate for unmarried Americans of all types (single, coupled, gay, whatever). All of us can find these issues seeping into our lives. I discovered them in mine when I was actually in a couple. The cultural views, like we've been discussing here- how friends treat each other, etc- is what ultimately ends up influencing the laws and making the difference in quality of life for everyone.
Yes it is still the majority, in the United States anyway. But it's not the "vast" majority anymore. These numbers are important for political reasons, so it is important not to understate them. I think far more interesting that fact everyone, whether married or coupled or otherwise, will spend more of their lives singles than every before. This is so important with respect to the question at hand. It makes it all that more important to maintain your friendships and the other relationships in your life.
and again, i have not seen one post in this thread to suggest otherwise. that's the point. we ALL agree friendship is very important. just that many of us also seem to agree that it's ok to give a friend a pass for awhile when he's starting off a new relationship. sooooo not the same thing. and also, while many may well be single for a greater portion of their lives, others may not. it's all choice and respecting others' life choices is all.
and hey - if you want to turn this into a political discusssion (b/c i am sure that's what the OP had in mind, haha) imagine if gay marriage is made legal and the wonderful implications there! that could well skew a ressurgeance of marriage! bottomline, we all have to choose what works best for us, sure...be cognizant of the bigger picture...and sure, gcut your friend some slack when he's got a new lay.
[quote="Lauri
I think it is very important for both coupled and single people to read the literature that's out there to learn the truth about the enormity of the role these issues play in our society, including both the laws and the culture. There's a few really great books out there and a ton of blogs, even political organizations that advocate for unmarried Americans of all types (single, coupled, gay, whatever). All of us can find these issues seeping into our lives. I discovered them in mine when I was actually in a couple. The cultural views, like we've been discussing here- how friends treat each other, etc- is what ultimately ends up influencing the laws and making the difference in quality of life for everyone.[/quote]
frankly i don't need books or literature to tell me how to be a friend or to live my life. make your own decisions and not by what someone else writes in books.
not judging or putting you down but just reading some of your responses here is exhausting - do you get paid by the word or something? (just kidding and trying to bring a little levity to the thread since it seems neverending)
and again, i have not seen one post in this thread to suggest otherwise. that's the point. we ALL agree friendship is very important. just that many of us also seem to agree that it's ok to give a friend a pass for awhile when he's starting off a new relationship. sooooo not the same thing. and also, while many may well be single for a greater portion of their lives, others may not. it's all choice and respecting others' life choices is all.
Well there was a sense I got in the thread that people thought it was an unnecessary issue to get passionate about or discuss at length. The other reason was that people seemed unwilling to talk about anything other than what they see as black-and-white, like "you can't argue that someone you're married to takes priority over your friends." And my point is that yes, it can be argued, and it should be for these reasons.
and hey - if you want to turn this into a political discusssion (b/c i am sure that's what the OP had in mind, haha) imagine if gay marriage is made legal and the wonderful implications there! that could well skew a ressurgeance of marriage! bottomline, we all have to choose what works best for us, sure...be cognizant of the bigger picture...and sure, gcut your friend some slack when he's got a new lay.
I am pro-gay marriage- I honestly think any argument against it is based on religion and therefore irrelevant to policy debates. But I also believe it obscures the real issue, which is government supported discrimination against unmarried people of both the gay and straight variety, single people and people who are coupled but choose not to get married. Everyone should be allowed to get "married" in whatever context that means to them, but there should not be government and legal rewards for doing so, or penalties for not doing so, whether by "choice" or circumstance. As it stands there are 1,100 references to marriage in the federal code, and god knows how many in the states. I don't believe that government should play a role in marriage at all, which is logical given the separation of church and state and anti-discrimination laws. If we ever get to this point, which I hope every day that we do, gay marriage wouldn't even be an issue, and that would be awesome.
frankly i don't need books or literature to tell me how to be a friend or to live my life. make your own decisions and not by what someone else writes in books.
It's not about telling you how to live your life in the least! I'm talking about learning about an important social issue, and discovering new ideas. None of the books and other resources I have read have influenced how I live my life other than they have made me realize that these are issues I feel strongly about. I'm not advocating reading ANYTHING that tells you how you "should" live. This is not about that in the least. I find it slightly offensive that you suggest I am advocating that.
not judging or putting you down but just reading some of your responses here is exhausting - do you get paid by the word or something? (just kidding and trying to bring a little levity to the thread since it seems neverending)
I take Adderall and drink a lot of coffee, and work has been slow with the holiday . I agree I write too much. But when there is something that strikes a nerve with me and something I have thought about a lot, I almost can't help myself. I read a ton of blogs about these issues and comment all the time, so I was really excited to see it discussed here in a different context, and opportunity to preach to more than the choir, which I am always up for.
and again, i have not seen one post in this thread to suggest otherwise. that's the point. we ALL agree friendship is very important. just that many of us also seem to agree that it's ok to give a friend a pass for awhile when he's starting off a new relationship. sooooo not the same thing. and also, while many may well be single for a greater portion of their lives, others may not. it's all choice and respecting others' life choices is all.
[Well there was a sense I got in the thread that people thought it was an unnecessary issue to get passionate about or discuss at length. The other reason was that people seemed unwilling to talk about anything other than what they see as black-and-white, like "you can't argue that someone you're married to takes priority over your friends." And my point is that yes, it can be argued, and it should be for these reasons.
and i got the sense that most took the OP in proper context. that's all. and one can argue all they want....but to think that the majority will think like you b/c of your arguements (or mine, speaking to the collective you) is just silly. it's a personal thing. this thread alone, seems to me most have a pretty healthy perspective on friendships and relationships in general. you may disagee.
and hey - if you want to turn this into a political discusssion (b/c i am sure that's what the OP had in mind, haha) imagine if gay marriage is made legal and the wonderful implications there! that could well skew a ressurgeance of marriage! bottomline, we all have to choose what works best for us, sure...be cognizant of the bigger picture...and sure, gcut your friend some slack when he's got a new lay.
I am pro-gay marriage- I honestly think any argument against it is based on religion and therefore irrelevant to policy debates. But I also believe it obscures the real issue, which is government supported discrimination against unmarried people of both the gay and straight variety, single people and people who are coupled but choose not to get married. Everyone should be allowed to get "married" in whatever context that means to them, but there should not be government and legal rewards for doing so, or penalties for not doing so, whether by "choice" or circumstance. As it stands there are 1,100 references to marriage in the federal code, and god knows how many in the states. I don't believe that government should play a role in marriage at all, which is logical given the separation of church and state and anti-discrimination laws. If we ever get to this point, which I hope every day that we do, gay marriage wouldn't even be an issue, and that would be awesome.
i'm pro gay marriage as well. however, you sound anti-marriage. and more power to ya, but if you are anti-marriage...you should be for all. heteros and gay alike. i am pro-marriage in general and i think it's a good thing. i know many people believe goverment should have nothing to do with marriage. i am not one of those people. i believe legal marriage and church sponsored marriage, two very different things, as they should be...and they actually ARE, right now. who knows how much things may change? hopefully all for the positive. however, i am definitely an advocate for gay marriage. hope it happens in my lifetime. i am really not too concerned about the preservation or demise of marriage, long-term. i am married, i am happy with it. it's a choice. that's all. if that changes, so be it...i have no personal vested interest, i will more than likely be long dead by then in any case. :P however marriage overall is not something i have any interest in debating. i've done enough of that on the MT, AET is supposed to be fun for me.
to me, this thread was all about friendships. part of that being, respectful of your friends lifeschoices...and that yes...we all need to adjust and balance our lives....
so we've gone from giving a friend a bit of space/understanding so he can get laid ....to changing society and ridding the world of marriage. now THAT's a thread! have fun with that...hahaha.
i'm pro gay marriage as well. however, you sound anti-marriage. and more power to ya, but if you are anti-marriage...you should be for all. heteros and gay alike. i am pro-marriage in general and i think it's a good thing. i know many people believe goverment should have nothing to do with marriage. i am not one of those people. i believe legal marriage and church sponsored marriage, two very different things, as they should be...and they actually ARE, right now. who knows how much things may change? hopefully all for the positive. however, i am definitely an advocate for gay marriage. hope it happens in my lifetime. i am really not too concerned about the preservation or demise of marriage, long-term. i am married, i am happy with it. it's a choice. that's all. if that changes, so be it...i have no personal vested interest, i will more than likely be long dead by then in any case. :P however marriage overall is not something i have any interest in debating. i've done enough of that on the MT, AET is supposed to be fun for me.
I'm not anti-marriage. As I said I think everyone should be allowed to make a personal commitment to their romantic partner in any way they see fit. I am against the tax breaks, social security laws, some alimony laws, and employer benefits that reward marriage and discriminate against others. I think those benefits can remain, but they have to be offered to unmarried people as well. I may have opportunity to get married at some point in my lifetime, but others may not, and others may chose for whatever reason, not to take those opportunities. Under the current system, all of these groups are second-class. There are arguments that can be made like, "oh if you really wanted the benefits, you could marry someone" or if you're in a couple, why not "play by the rules." But my response to that is 1) why does the government and our employers care about what people are doing in their bedrooms? Why does the very first line of my pay stub say, "marital status"? Part of the answer I think is just the lag between changes in society and the laws that govern it. 2) There are people who really do not have the option to get married. Imagine you suffer a horrible physical or mental illness or are in someway disabled and can't leave your house or hospital or whatever. As a result, you never meet anyone to marry. Under the law, people with disabilities can't be dscriminated against. But in reality, this person would be indirectly under the marriage laws. That to me is one of the more logical and clear arguments you can make against marriage-based discrimination.
to me, this thread was all about friendships. part of that being, respectful of your friends lifeschoices...and that yes...we all need to adjust and balance our lives....
I don't really think they are two separate topics at all. As I said, there are feedbacks between the culture and the law.
it's the day before thanksgiving, do YOU have work to do?
nah, i didn't think so.
but now that it veered into MT territory, i have to happily amuse myself elsewhere.
debating giving your friend a pss to get laid....i'm in....all the rest, no thanks....
2.5 more hours!
maybe time for lunch...
and the OP has never returned - maybe he is ignoring his online friends and gettin' some!
Who said that this is the issue? In severe case I mentioned, the friend was a repeat offender. He was a serial monogamist, and we were inseparable between his relationships. Even when i was dating someone, we still hang out as a group and stuff all the time. I still considered him to be one of my best friends. But when he was dating someone, forget it. It was like we had never even met. I just eventually said to myself I wasn't going to be a back up anymore. I wasn't being fair to myself. I stopped making the extra effort that I always had to put in, and since he was dating someone, he didn't put in any effort, and we just never saw each other again. It was very sad and hard for me to do at the time.
That's my point. Why are YOU the one defining how often he has to see you or how he lives his life? You point out that when he's single you two have a lot of fun together. Why is that not enough? So when he gets somebody important involved in his life, YOU show you're a good friend by... kicking him to the curb becos he doesn't give you enough attention anymore? That sounds a lot less like friends and a lot more like wishing you were the one dating him...
The lifestyle you describe for yourself is all well and good for you, my point is that that does not make everyone else wrong to live another way. If he wants to get wrapped up in his gf, a true friend would be happy for his happiness, not sulking with petty jealousy.
This is uncalled for. I am the least "wrapped up in myself" person I have ever known. A guy actually told me once that I should talk about myself more because most of what I talk about is the people I care about and broader social topics, and he thought I should think about myself more. What guy says that to a girl he's seeing? I have always done everything for myself, and have also been accused of being "too independent," which I'll take as a compliment. I don't expect anything from anyone other than human decency. As I told you before, the traditional "sour grapes" argument doesn't hold because I have shown that I do unto others as I'd have done to myself..
No you haven't shown that. You've shown that you demand that everyone act towards you the same way you do to them instead of accepting who they are on their terms. If you don't get what you want from said friend, you stop talking to them.
haha well I'm glad you winked here because that's pretty nonsensical. besides I don't think my friends even like sex so it's certainly not happening in my case . But I have known people who have given up their friends and then gotten stuck. Once you establish that this is how it's going to be, it's hard to turn that around. That's bad enough when the relationship continues, but it's a hell of a lot worse when the relationship ends. You see it all the time with people who have been divorced or widowed...they put all their eggs in the romantic basket and now they can't get back what they once had. You know this is something that I truly appreciate about how my own life has worked out. No one is completely self-sufficient, we need a lot of people in our lives who love us. You know D2D quoted the line in just breathe "I'm a lucky man to count on both hands..." I feel the same way as Ed. You know in all of EV's songs that mention love, I have never taken it to mean romantic love, I feel like he believes in something much bigger, and so do I.
not non-sensical at all. i rather suspect that is exactly what is happening in the OP's post. dude's getting laid, and once that dries up, he'll be hanging with Drop all over again. no biggie. it's not hard to turn it around, unless your friends are people like you and will never forgive them for going awol for a little while. lucky for me, my friends are good enough that i can go for 2 years without talking to them and nobody has any hard feelings about it.
you mean there are more people out there as disinterested in sex as you?
Who said that this is the issue? In severe case I mentioned, the friend was a repeat offender. He was a serial monogamist, and we were inseparable between his relationships. Even when i was dating someone, we still hang out as a group and stuff all the time. I still considered him to be one of my best friends. But when he was dating someone, forget it. It was like we had never even met. I just eventually said to myself I wasn't going to be a back up anymore. I wasn't being fair to myself. I stopped making the extra effort that I always had to put in, and since he was dating someone, he didn't put in any effort, and we just never saw each other again. It was very sad and hard for me to do at the time.
That's my point. Why are YOU the one defining how often he has to see you or how he lives his life? You point out that when he's single you two have a lot of fun together. Why is that not enough? So when he gets somebody important involved in his life, YOU show you're a good friend by... kicking him to the curb becos he doesn't give you enough attention anymore? That sounds a lot less like friends and a lot more like wishing you were the one dating him...
The lifestyle you describe for yourself is all well and good for you, my point is that that does not make everyone else wrong to live another way. If he wants to get wrapped up in his gf, a true friend would be happy for his happiness, not sulking with petty jealousy.
soulsinging, I'm not going to sit here and defend my value as a human being to you. You cross the line with the personal attacks. Judgments like "petty jealousy" and "self-centered" are uncalled for, and I don't see a hint of those things in anything I've written anyway. I have not gotten into any one else's personal lives in any of my posts or accused anyone of such negative personality traits. I tried my best to explain where I was coming from, even giving up some personal information to better illustrate, but it's clear you're determined to see me in a certain light while refusing to see both sides of anything. At least I have responded directly to things people have written and used logical explanations, anecdotes, examples, and even statistics to better explain myself. I've considered everything people have written and responded to THAT. I've even commented negatively on the methods people have used to argue, which may have been inappropriate, but I have NOT commented on any one else's personal value or personal relationships. Even wrt the original poster, I have used his example in a mostly hypothetical light, as a discussion basis, given that that's all you can do with limited information. I haven't said anything about you or who you are as a person. Yes, I expect the same in return, even from some stranger on the internet. I guess that makes me self-centered, jealous, petty, incapable of love, a bad friend...what else have you said about me in this thread? Forgive me for not expecting this type of response to taking a position on the idea that one should be nice to his or her friends. After all this typing, that's all I've been saying.
This is uncalled for. I am the least "wrapped up in myself" person I have ever known. A guy actually told me once that I should talk about myself more because most of what I talk about is the people I care about and broader social topics, and he thought I should think about myself more. What guy says that to a girl he's seeing? I have always done everything for myself, and have also been accused of being "too independent," which I'll take as a compliment. I don't expect anything from anyone other than human decency. As I told you before, the traditional "sour grapes" argument doesn't hold because I have shown that I do unto others as I'd have done to myself..
No you haven't shown that. You've shown that you demand that everyone act towards you the same way you do to them instead of accepting who they are on their terms. If you don't get what you want from said friend, you stop talking to them.
Yes, you do have this right about me. I treat my friends well and expect the same. I don't accept "who they are" if who they are is someone who doesn't care about our friendship. Beyond that you have made giant leaps in assessing the story I provided. I don't "demand" anything from anyone. I ask for respect. It's a two-way street- I stopped calling because it was clear he didn't care to receive my calls. The whole thing sucked on all sides, and perhaps I would have done some things differently if I could go back. The bottom line is, Drop the Leash was obviously hurt by his friends' actions. I can relate to that. I hope that it somehow turns out better for him than it did for me. It doesn't really matter what the reasons are, if a friend feels hurt by another friend, it's never a fun situation.
I was just thinking: soulsinging, if you were dating a girl and she stopped calling you and made it clear she didn't care to have you around, would you keep trying to call her and wait around for the phone to ring and say to you friends, "I know she's acting like a jerk, but deep down she really still likes me and eventually she'll see the light"? There's no difference between the two scenarios, really. Just as friendships are as important as romantic relationships, you also shouldn't stay in a bad one that's hurting you emotionally.
soulsinging, I'm not going to sit here and defend my value as a human being to you. You cross the line with the personal attacks. Judgments like "petty jealousy" and "self-centered" are uncalled for, and I don't see a hint of those things in anything I've written anyway. I have not gotten into any one else's personal lives in any of my posts or accused anyone of such negative personality traits. I tried my best to explain where I was coming from, even giving up some personal information to better illustrate, but it's clear you're determined to see me in a certain light while refusing to see both sides of anything. At least I have responded directly to things people have written and used logical explanations, anecdotes, examples, and even statistics to better explain myself. I've considered everything people have written and responded to THAT. I've even commented negatively on the methods people have used to argue, which may have been inappropriate, but I have NOT commented on any one else's personal value or personal relationships. Even wrt the original poster, I have used his example in a mostly hypothetical light, as a discussion basis, given that that's all you can do with limited information. I haven't said anything about you or who you are as a person. Yes, I expect the same in return, even from some stranger on the internet. I guess that makes me self-centered, jealous, petty, incapable of love, a bad friend...what else have you said about me in this thread? Forgive me for not expecting this type of response to taking a position on the idea that one should be nice to his or her friends. After all this typing, that's all I've been saying.
i see. so the snide remarks about "welcome back to 1954" and accusing me of supporting a female-opporessive patriarchy were not comments on my personal values and relationships?
you have not been saying to be nice to your friends, otherwise we'd all be agreeing becos we have all said the same. and i would argue that cutting off a friend becos they got swept up in their romantic entanglement of the moment is not a very nice thing to do. the nice thing to do would be happy for your friend.
you mean there are more people out there as disinterested in sex as you?
Jeas, it keeps getting worse. What is THIS all about? You have NO idea what my interest in sex is. This is REALLY out of line now. That's nothing outside of slander. Respecting your friends means you're not interested in sex? That's not jumping to conclusions, it's like taking a transcontinental flight to conclusions.
I was just thinking: soulsinging, if you were dating a girl and she stopped calling you and made it clear she didn't care to have you around, would you keep trying to call her and wait around for the phone to ring and say to you friends, "I know she's acting like a jerk, but deep down she really still likes me and eventually she'll see the light"? There's no difference between the two scenarios, really. Just as friendships are as important as romantic relationships, you also shouldn't stay in a bad one that's hurting you emotionally.
no, i wouldnt wait around. but i've been clear from the beginning that expectations are different with respect to a love interest and a friend. i have had many friends disappear when they got a gf and not once did i stop calling them, talking to them, hanging out, or anything else. it didn't hurt me that they didnt return calls or were too busy to hang out, becos i knew why they were so busy and excited and knew our friendship was strong enough to survive him focusing on other people for a while. no biggie. the one time i stopped talking to a "friend" was when said friend was a girl and i really wanted more than friendship so the fact that she was blowing me off hurt for very diff reasons. and this saga about the friend that hurt you so bad... he was a guy that you spent tons of time with when he was single... hmm....
you mean there are more people out there as disinterested in sex as you?
Jeas, it keeps getting worse. What is THIS all about? You have NO idea what my interest in sex is. This is REALLY out of line now. That's nothing outside of slander. Respecting your friends means you're not interested in sex? That's not jumping to conclusions, it's like taking a transcontinental flight to conclusions.
just meant that you said your friends are disinterested in sex. i never met anyone that was disinterested in sex. are your friends robots? and i was poking fun at your for approaching the prospect of hot sex with virile young bodies from the perspective of risk and evaluating future potential relationship problems... just enjoy the sex!
i also think it's libel or defamation... slander is spoken and this was printed
i see. so the snide remarks about "welcome back to 1954" and accusing me of supporting a female-opporessive patriarchy were not comments on my personal values and relationships?
I didn't accuse you of supporting anything. I suggested a theory to explain the phenomenon we were discussing. I just put it out there, it doesn't have anything to do with you. The welcome back to 1945 was in response to your language, "find a man to marry you." That is very 1954 language as far as I'm concerned. I take it as a given that most people realize women aren't walking around trying to "find a man to marry them" in that very strong sense, in the post-feminist era.
you have not been saying to be nice to your friends, otherwise we'd all be agreeing becos we have all said the same. and i would argue that cutting off a friend becos they got swept up in their romantic entanglement of the moment is not a very nice thing to do. the nice thing to do would be happy for your friend.
But you don't know all the facts of the story. I couldn't even express all of them here, or accurately explain how I was feeling at the time. It was a repeat offensive. His feelings were clear to me. There is a point when being nice to your friends doesn't matter because they're not really your friend anymore anyway. It's about not calling for a few weeks or canceling plans, it's about a real pattern of behavior that makes clear to you your position in someone's life. I concluded that in this situation, my position was not that of a friend anymore.
you mean there are more people out there as disinterested in sex as you?
Jeas, it keeps getting worse. What is THIS all about? You have NO idea what my interest in sex is. This is REALLY out of line now. That's nothing outside of slander. Respecting your friends means you're not interested in sex? That's not jumping to conclusions, it's like taking a transcontinental flight to conclusions.
just meant that you said your friends are disinterested in sex. i never met anyone that was disinterested in sex. are your friends robots? and i was poking fun at your for approaching the prospect of hot sex with virile young bodies from the perspective of risk and evaluating future potential relationship problems... just enjoy the sex!
i also think it's libel or defamation... slander is spoken and this was printed
Yeah a lot of people aren't very interested in sex. It's a common side effect of birth control and anti-depresants, and think of how many people in this country take one (or both!) of those. I know some of my friends are experiencing it now, and I've gone through it in the past. There are lots of other reasons for it too. There are some people who are never interested in sex. There is controversy over whether asexual should be classified as a sexual orientation (or I guess lack thereof???). And believe it or not, some people just don't like it. It's not something that is generally accepted as "normal" so people often don't talk about it if that's how they are feeling. I've seen some web sites devoted to people who, for one reason or another, just aren't interested in sex, and they really feel stigmatized. You read about it all the time in "mainstream" stuff too, medical sites, women's issues sites, hell even advice columns.
Oh and that's not what I was getting at wrt the "risk" in the other thread. I was talking about STDs, pregnancy, even just short term awkwardness...
soulsinging, I'm not going to sit here and defend my value as a human being to you. You cross the line with the personal attacks. Judgments like "petty jealousy" and "self-centered" are uncalled for, and I don't see a hint of those things in anything I've written anyway.
Maybe not as "Lauri," but let's stop with the nonsense ..
'I want to hurry home to you
put on a slow, dumb show for you
and crack you up
so you can put a blue ribbon on my brain
god I'm very, very frightening
and I'll overdo it'
Yeah a lot of people aren't very interested in sex. It's a common side effect of birth control and anti-depresants, and think of how many people in this country take one (or both!) of those. I know some of my friends are experiencing it now, and I've gone through it in the past. There are lots of other reasons for it too. There are some people who are never interested in sex. There is controversy over whether asexual should be classified as a sexual orientation (or I guess lack thereof???). And believe it or not, some people just don't like it. It's not something that is generally accepted as "normal" so people often don't talk about it if that's how they are feeling. I've seen some web sites devoted to people who, for one reason or another, just aren't interested in sex, and they really feel stigmatized. You read about it all the time in "mainstream" stuff too, medical sites, women's issues sites, hell even advice columns.
Oh and that's not what I was getting at wrt the "risk" in the other thread. I was talking about STDs, pregnancy, even just short term awkwardness...
seriously? that would suck. :(
that's what i'm asking... it came in the context of it being worth it to sleep with younger guys, why would the risk for std or pregnancy be any different?
Regarding the meat of this thread, not the initial post...casual boyfriends and girlfriends aside, your spouse and kids should always take priority over friends and family....bottom line..and Lauri, that cannot be argued, even by you ..
And as for taking priority over family, I really hope I never have to make that decision. I hope I never have the option of either saving my parents from a burning building or saving my partner from a sinking ship.
So I would say that with the exception of the kids issue, there is a lot of room for argument here. It's a major problem that people will say things like, "you can't argue with that" in response to these issues. It's not like it's a natural phenomenon beyond the scope of human manipulation. This is all a social issue, and there are ALWAYS arguments with respect to any social issue. That's how positive change is made.
Sure, anything can be argued, but it doesn't make it any less ridiculous. "Lauri," maybe the problem is that you haven't experienced the kind of love that many of us feel for our wives/husbands. For me, it's on a completely different level than the love I feel for my friends and family. In your scenario above, I wouldn't think twice or hesitate for a second to save and protect my wife first. Not even close, and I love my parents very much..
'I want to hurry home to you
put on a slow, dumb show for you
and crack you up
so you can put a blue ribbon on my brain
god I'm very, very frightening
and I'll overdo it'
'I want to hurry home to you
put on a slow, dumb show for you
and crack you up
so you can put a blue ribbon on my brain
god I'm very, very frightening
and I'll overdo it'
Comments
i know the numbers are chaniging...but the numbers still have not changed to make single the norm. most people still choose to couple, most people still choose to have children. how long they stay coupled, or with the same person, numerous people, etc, etc...always shifting. however, i do believe the #s still reflect the majority being coupled. and i think most especially in say the 30 to 60 range. 20s and then older than 60s....i think are far different. aren't there like something like 300 million americans presently? so yea, one third single. sure, some i imagine are children
so yea...even in the OP. maybe his friend is a real dick and not a real friend, or maybe drop just needs to see he's in the honeymoon phase of his new girl, and 2 weeks from now they'll be out again having beers and sharing laughs as they always do. friends respect those choices. that's all. nothing stays exactl y the same, always...and that isn't always a bad thing either.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
*grabs popcorn*
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
that made me laugh.
sorry for boring you bin.
(btw - i never subscribe to threads - ack!)
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Yes it is still the majority, in the United States anyway. But it's not the "vast" majority anymore. These numbers are important for political reasons, so it is important not to understate them. I think far more interesting that fact everyone, whether married or coupled or otherwise, will spend more of their lives singles than ever before. This is so important with respect to the question at hand. It makes it all that more important to maintain your friendships and the other relationships in your life.
I think it is very important for both coupled and single people to read the literature that's out there to learn the truth about the enormity of the role these issues play in our society, including both the laws and the culture. There's a few really great books out there and a ton of blogs, even political organizations that advocate for unmarried Americans of all types (single, coupled, gay, whatever). All of us can find these issues seeping into our lives. I discovered them in mine when I was actually in a couple. The cultural views, like we've been discussing here- how friends treat each other, etc- is what ultimately ends up influencing the laws and making the difference in quality of life for everyone.
and again, i have not seen one post in this thread to suggest otherwise. that's the point. we ALL agree friendship is very important. just that many of us also seem to agree that it's ok to give a friend a pass for awhile when he's starting off a new relationship. sooooo not the same thing. and also, while many may well be single for a greater portion of their lives, others may not. it's all choice and respecting others' life choices is all.
and hey - if you want to turn this into a political discusssion (b/c i am sure that's what the OP had in mind, haha) imagine if gay marriage is made legal and the wonderful implications there! that could well skew a ressurgeance of marriage! bottomline, we all have to choose what works best for us, sure...be cognizant of the bigger picture...and sure, gcut your friend some slack when he's got a new lay.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I think it is very important for both coupled and single people to read the literature that's out there to learn the truth about the enormity of the role these issues play in our society, including both the laws and the culture. There's a few really great books out there and a ton of blogs, even political organizations that advocate for unmarried Americans of all types (single, coupled, gay, whatever). All of us can find these issues seeping into our lives. I discovered them in mine when I was actually in a couple. The cultural views, like we've been discussing here- how friends treat each other, etc- is what ultimately ends up influencing the laws and making the difference in quality of life for everyone.[/quote]
frankly i don't need books or literature to tell me how to be a friend or to live my life. make your own decisions and not by what someone else writes in books.
not judging or putting you down but just reading some of your responses here is exhausting - do you get paid by the word or something? (just kidding and trying to bring a little levity to the thread since it seems neverending)
Well there was a sense I got in the thread that people thought it was an unnecessary issue to get passionate about or discuss at length. The other reason was that people seemed unwilling to talk about anything other than what they see as black-and-white, like "you can't argue that someone you're married to takes priority over your friends." And my point is that yes, it can be argued, and it should be for these reasons.
I am pro-gay marriage- I honestly think any argument against it is based on religion and therefore irrelevant to policy debates. But I also believe it obscures the real issue, which is government supported discrimination against unmarried people of both the gay and straight variety, single people and people who are coupled but choose not to get married. Everyone should be allowed to get "married" in whatever context that means to them, but there should not be government and legal rewards for doing so, or penalties for not doing so, whether by "choice" or circumstance. As it stands there are 1,100 references to marriage in the federal code, and god knows how many in the states. I don't believe that government should play a role in marriage at all, which is logical given the separation of church and state and anti-discrimination laws. If we ever get to this point, which I hope every day that we do, gay marriage wouldn't even be an issue, and that would be awesome.
It's not about telling you how to live your life in the least! I'm talking about learning about an important social issue, and discovering new ideas. None of the books and other resources I have read have influenced how I live my life other than they have made me realize that these are issues I feel strongly about. I'm not advocating reading ANYTHING that tells you how you "should" live. This is not about that in the least. I find it slightly offensive that you suggest I am advocating that.
I take Adderall and drink a lot of coffee, and work has been slow with the holiday
and i got the sense that most took the OP in proper context. that's all. and one can argue all they want....but to think that the majority will think like you b/c of your arguements (or mine, speaking to the collective you) is just silly. it's a personal thing. this thread alone, seems to me most have a pretty healthy perspective on friendships and relationships in general. you may disagee.
i'm pro gay marriage as well. however, you sound anti-marriage. and more power to ya, but if you are anti-marriage...you should be for all. heteros and gay alike.
to me, this thread was all about friendships. part of that being, respectful of your friends lifeschoices...and that yes...we all need to adjust and balance our lives....
so we've gone from giving a friend a bit of space/understanding so he can get laid
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I'm not anti-marriage. As I said I think everyone should be allowed to make a personal commitment to their romantic partner in any way they see fit. I am against the tax breaks, social security laws, some alimony laws, and employer benefits that reward marriage and discriminate against others. I think those benefits can remain, but they have to be offered to unmarried people as well. I may have opportunity to get married at some point in my lifetime, but others may not, and others may chose for whatever reason, not to take those opportunities. Under the current system, all of these groups are second-class. There are arguments that can be made like, "oh if you really wanted the benefits, you could marry someone" or if you're in a couple, why not "play by the rules." But my response to that is 1) why does the government and our employers care about what people are doing in their bedrooms? Why does the very first line of my pay stub say, "marital status"? Part of the answer I think is just the lag between changes in society and the laws that govern it. 2) There are people who really do not have the option to get married. Imagine you suffer a horrible physical or mental illness or are in someway disabled and can't leave your house or hospital or whatever. As a result, you never meet anyone to marry. Under the law, people with disabilities can't be dscriminated against. But in reality, this person would be indirectly under the marriage laws. That to me is one of the more logical and clear arguments you can make against marriage-based discrimination.
I don't really think they are two separate topics at all. As I said, there are feedbacks between the culture and the law.
LMAO! Best reply to this goofy thread!
it's the day before thanksgiving, do YOU have work to do?
nah, i didn't think so.
but now that it veered into MT territory, i have to happily amuse myself elsewhere.
debating giving your friend a pss to get laid....i'm in....all the rest, no thanks....
2.5 more hours!
maybe time for lunch...
and the OP has never returned - maybe he is ignoring his online friends and gettin' some!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
well considering they're in high school, his friend has probably broken up with the girl
hahahahaha...too true!
ahhhh, new loves.....lusts......fun times!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
That's my point. Why are YOU the one defining how often he has to see you or how he lives his life? You point out that when he's single you two have a lot of fun together. Why is that not enough? So when he gets somebody important involved in his life, YOU show you're a good friend by... kicking him to the curb becos he doesn't give you enough attention anymore? That sounds a lot less like friends and a lot more like wishing you were the one dating him...
The lifestyle you describe for yourself is all well and good for you, my point is that that does not make everyone else wrong to live another way. If he wants to get wrapped up in his gf, a true friend would be happy for his happiness, not sulking with petty jealousy.
No you haven't shown that. You've shown that you demand that everyone act towards you the same way you do to them instead of accepting who they are on their terms. If you don't get what you want from said friend, you stop talking to them.
not non-sensical at all. i rather suspect that is exactly what is happening in the OP's post. dude's getting laid, and once that dries up, he'll be hanging with Drop all over again. no biggie. it's not hard to turn it around, unless your friends are people like you and will never forgive them for going awol for a little while. lucky for me, my friends are good enough that i can go for 2 years without talking to them and nobody has any hard feelings about it.
you mean there are more people out there as disinterested in sex as you?
soulsinging, I'm not going to sit here and defend my value as a human being to you. You cross the line with the personal attacks. Judgments like "petty jealousy" and "self-centered" are uncalled for, and I don't see a hint of those things in anything I've written anyway. I have not gotten into any one else's personal lives in any of my posts or accused anyone of such negative personality traits. I tried my best to explain where I was coming from, even giving up some personal information to better illustrate, but it's clear you're determined to see me in a certain light while refusing to see both sides of anything. At least I have responded directly to things people have written and used logical explanations, anecdotes, examples, and even statistics to better explain myself. I've considered everything people have written and responded to THAT. I've even commented negatively on the methods people have used to argue, which may have been inappropriate, but I have NOT commented on any one else's personal value or personal relationships. Even wrt the original poster, I have used his example in a mostly hypothetical light, as a discussion basis, given that that's all you can do with limited information. I haven't said anything about you or who you are as a person. Yes, I expect the same in return, even from some stranger on the internet. I guess that makes me self-centered, jealous, petty, incapable of love, a bad friend...what else have you said about me in this thread? Forgive me for not expecting this type of response to taking a position on the idea that one should be nice to his or her friends. After all this typing, that's all I've been saying.
Yes, you do have this right about me. I treat my friends well and expect the same. I don't accept "who they are" if who they are is someone who doesn't care about our friendship. Beyond that you have made giant leaps in assessing the story I provided. I don't "demand" anything from anyone. I ask for respect. It's a two-way street- I stopped calling because it was clear he didn't care to receive my calls. The whole thing sucked on all sides, and perhaps I would have done some things differently if I could go back. The bottom line is, Drop the Leash was obviously hurt by his friends' actions. I can relate to that. I hope that it somehow turns out better for him than it did for me. It doesn't really matter what the reasons are, if a friend feels hurt by another friend, it's never a fun situation.
I was just thinking: soulsinging, if you were dating a girl and she stopped calling you and made it clear she didn't care to have you around, would you keep trying to call her and wait around for the phone to ring and say to you friends, "I know she's acting like a jerk, but deep down she really still likes me and eventually she'll see the light"? There's no difference between the two scenarios, really. Just as friendships are as important as romantic relationships, you also shouldn't stay in a bad one that's hurting you emotionally.
i see. so the snide remarks about "welcome back to 1954" and accusing me of supporting a female-opporessive patriarchy were not comments on my personal values and relationships?
you have not been saying to be nice to your friends, otherwise we'd all be agreeing becos we have all said the same. and i would argue that cutting off a friend becos they got swept up in their romantic entanglement of the moment is not a very nice thing to do. the nice thing to do would be happy for your friend.
Jeas, it keeps getting worse. What is THIS all about? You have NO idea what my interest in sex is. This is REALLY out of line now. That's nothing outside of slander. Respecting your friends means you're not interested in sex? That's not jumping to conclusions, it's like taking a transcontinental flight to conclusions.
no, i wouldnt wait around. but i've been clear from the beginning that expectations are different with respect to a love interest and a friend. i have had many friends disappear when they got a gf and not once did i stop calling them, talking to them, hanging out, or anything else. it didn't hurt me that they didnt return calls or were too busy to hang out, becos i knew why they were so busy and excited and knew our friendship was strong enough to survive him focusing on other people for a while. no biggie. the one time i stopped talking to a "friend" was when said friend was a girl and i really wanted more than friendship so the fact that she was blowing me off hurt for very diff reasons. and this saga about the friend that hurt you so bad... he was a guy that you spent tons of time with when he was single... hmm....
just meant that you said your friends are disinterested in sex. i never met anyone that was disinterested in sex. are your friends robots? and i was poking fun at your for approaching the prospect of hot sex with virile young bodies from the perspective of risk and evaluating future potential relationship problems... just enjoy the sex!
i also think it's libel or defamation... slander is spoken and this was printed
I didn't accuse you of supporting anything. I suggested a theory to explain the phenomenon we were discussing. I just put it out there, it doesn't have anything to do with you. The welcome back to 1945 was in response to your language, "find a man to marry you." That is very 1954 language as far as I'm concerned. I take it as a given that most people realize women aren't walking around trying to "find a man to marry them" in that very strong sense, in the post-feminist era.
But you don't know all the facts of the story. I couldn't even express all of them here, or accurately explain how I was feeling at the time. It was a repeat offensive. His feelings were clear to me. There is a point when being nice to your friends doesn't matter because they're not really your friend anymore anyway. It's about not calling for a few weeks or canceling plans, it's about a real pattern of behavior that makes clear to you your position in someone's life. I concluded that in this situation, my position was not that of a friend anymore.
Yeah a lot of people aren't very interested in sex. It's a common side effect of birth control and anti-depresants, and think of how many people in this country take one (or both!) of those. I know some of my friends are experiencing it now, and I've gone through it in the past. There are lots of other reasons for it too. There are some people who are never interested in sex. There is controversy over whether asexual should be classified as a sexual orientation (or I guess lack thereof???). And believe it or not, some people just don't like it. It's not something that is generally accepted as "normal" so people often don't talk about it if that's how they are feeling. I've seen some web sites devoted to people who, for one reason or another, just aren't interested in sex, and they really feel stigmatized. You read about it all the time in "mainstream" stuff too, medical sites, women's issues sites, hell even advice columns.
Oh and that's not what I was getting at wrt the "risk" in the other thread. I was talking about STDs, pregnancy, even just short term awkwardness...
Maybe not as "Lauri," but let's stop with the nonsense
put on a slow, dumb show for you
and crack you up
so you can put a blue ribbon on my brain
god I'm very, very frightening
and I'll overdo it'
seriously? that would suck. :(
that's what i'm asking... it came in the context of it being worth it to sleep with younger guys, why would the risk for std or pregnancy be any different?
Sure, anything can be argued, but it doesn't make it any less ridiculous. "Lauri," maybe the problem is that you haven't experienced the kind of love that many of us feel for our wives/husbands. For me, it's on a completely different level than the love I feel for my friends and family. In your scenario above, I wouldn't think twice or hesitate for a second to save and protect my wife first. Not even close, and I love my parents very much..
put on a slow, dumb show for you
and crack you up
so you can put a blue ribbon on my brain
god I'm very, very frightening
and I'll overdo it'
put on a slow, dumb show for you
and crack you up
so you can put a blue ribbon on my brain
god I'm very, very frightening
and I'll overdo it'