Christians (not the zealots, not the holier-than-thou, not the rampaging haters), true Christians have very very little in common with Catholics. To be honest, catholicism has become exactly what Jesus preached against (very legalistic, formal, ceremonial, exclusive, etc.). Christianity in itself is not a religion. Religion is people's way to try and connect to God. Christianity is God's way to connect with His People. True Christians don't have to force their beliefs on anyone, because their lives actually reflect those beliefs in a way that glorifies God. If more Christians actually lived the life we are called to live, there would be no need to go around pitching our beliefs like a car salesman. Their actions would speak for them. Unfortunately, many Christians, especially myself, don't live up to that standard. I've said many times, and I always will believe that Christians do more harm to the image of Christianity than any other group could ever do.
christmas for one, it was a pagan festival of something can not remember will go look it up.
Rod Laver Arena - Feb 18, 2003
Rod Laver Arena - Nov 13, 2006
Adelaide Oval - Nov 17, 2009
Etihad Stadium - Nov 20, 2009
BDO Melbourne - Jan 24, 2014
New York - May 02 - 2016
Christians (not the zealots, not the holier-than-thou, not the rampaging haters), true Christians have very very little in common with Catholics. To be honest, catholicism has become exactly what Jesus preached against (very legalistic, formal, ceremonial, exclusive, etc.). Christianity in itself is not a religion. Religion is people's way to try and connect to God. Christianity is God's way to connect with His People. True Christians don't have to force their beliefs on anyone, because their lives actually reflect those beliefs in a way that glorifies God. If more Christians actually lived the life we are called to live, there would be no need to go around pitching our beliefs like a car salesman. Their actions would speak for them. Unfortunately, many Christians, especially myself, don't live up to that standard. I've said many times, and I always will believe that Christians do more harm to the image of Christianity than any other group could ever do.
christianity is still a religion even if it's not catholic. there is a set sacred text, set core beliefs, certain rituals and traditions that must be recognized. you all act like being a christian is just like saying 'i'm a pacifist.' there's more to it than spirituality/ideology. you must accept certain beliefs to be christian. it is a religion, even if you're not going to a catholic mass weekly.
Christians (not the zealots, not the holier-than-thou, not the rampaging haters), true Christians have very very little in common with Catholics. To be honest, catholicism has become exactly what Jesus preached against (very legalistic, formal, ceremonial, exclusive, etc.). Christianity in itself is not a religion. Religion is people's way to try and connect to God. Christianity is God's way to connect with His People. True Christians don't have to force their beliefs on anyone, because their lives actually reflect those beliefs in a way that glorifies God. If more Christians actually lived the life we are called to live, there would be no need to go around pitching our beliefs like a car salesman. Their actions would speak for them. Unfortunately, many Christians, especially myself, don't live up to that standard. I've said many times, and I always will believe that Christians do more harm to the image of Christianity than any other group could ever do.
christianity is still a religion even if it's not catholic. there is a set sacred text, set core beliefs, certain rituals and traditions that must be recognized. you all act like being a christian is just like saying 'i'm a pacifist.' there's more to it than spirituality/ideology. you must accept certain beliefs to be christian. it is a religion, even if you're not going to a catholic mass weekly.
cool then I'll be a thoughtful spiritual person who believes there is without doubt a God and an afterlife. I will believe Jesus was a most wonderful man who I strive to be more like and who I believe I may be lucky enough to meet one day.A man who I thoroughly believe influences my life for the better and can in the toughest times feel him there with me. For me thats being a Christian person.
christianity is still a religion even if it's not catholic. there is a set sacred text, set core beliefs, certain rituals and traditions that must be recognized. you all act like being a christian is just like saying 'i'm a pacifist.' there's more to it than spirituality/ideology. you must accept certain beliefs to be christian. it is a religion, even if you're not going to a catholic mass weekly.
cool then I'll be a thoughtful spiritual person who believes there is without doubt a God and an afterlife. I will believe Jesus was a most wonderful man who I strive to be more like and who I believe I may be lucky enough to meet one day.A man who I thoroughly believe influences my life for the better and can in the toughest times feel him there with me. For me thats being a Christian person.
do you believe he is the divine son of god? if so, you're religious. the fact that you're way too hip and trendy to attend services and have adapted hippy-style self-actualization goals instead of bartering to get into heaven does not change that. if you don't believe jesus is the son of god, you're not a christian.
christianity is still a religion even if it's not catholic. there is a set sacred text, set core beliefs, certain rituals and traditions that must be recognized. you all act like being a christian is just like saying 'i'm a pacifist.' there's more to it than spirituality/ideology. you must accept certain beliefs to be christian. it is a religion, even if you're not going to a catholic mass weekly.
cool then I'll be a thoughtful spiritual person who believes there is without doubt a God and an afterlife. I will believe Jesus was a most wonderful man who I strive to be more like and who I believe I may be lucky enough to meet one day.A man who I thoroughly believe influences my life for the better and can in the toughest times feel him there with me. For me thats being a Christian person.
do you believe he is the divine son of god? if so, you're religious. the fact that you're way too hip and trendy to attend services and have adapted hippy-style self-actualization goals instead of bartering to get into heaven does not change that. if you don't believe jesus is the son of god, you're not a christian.
what if you believe we are ALL the son of god, including Jesus? It seems to me that is what Jesus was sayin.
ps. I'm not saying I believe that...
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
do you believe he is the divine son of god? if so, you're religious. the fact that you're way too hip and trendy to attend services and have adapted hippy-style self-actualization goals instead of bartering to get into heaven does not change that. if you don't believe jesus is the son of god, you're not a christian.
what if you believe we are ALL the son of god, including Jesus? It seems to me that is what Jesus was sayin.
ps. I'm not saying I believe that...
then you aren't christian. you can't claim to be a christian and then just try to dodge the blatant irrationalities of the bible by using some legal hair-splitting to try and convince yourself jesus never claimed to be divine. that's for people too cool and smart to really buy into christianity, but too beholden to their parents and peer pressure to dismiss it for the mythological hokum it is.
christianity is still a religion even if it's not catholic. there is a set sacred text, set core beliefs, certain rituals and traditions that must be recognized. you all act like being a christian is just like saying 'i'm a pacifist.' there's more to it than spirituality/ideology. you must accept certain beliefs to be christian. it is a religion, even if you're not going to a catholic mass weekly.
cool then I'll be a thoughtful spiritual person who believes there is without doubt a God and an afterlife. I will believe Jesus was a most wonderful man who I strive to be more like and who I believe I may be lucky enough to meet one day.A man who I thoroughly believe influences my life for the better and can in the toughest times feel him there with me. For me thats being a Christian person.
do you believe he is the divine son of god? if so, you're religious. the fact that you're way too hip and trendy to attend services and have adapted hippy-style self-actualization goals instead of bartering to get into heaven does not change that. if you don't believe jesus is the son of god, you're not a christian.
semantics perhaps- we are all the son of God soulsinging -Divine or otherwise is totally irrelevant to me that is religion. I am not a hip and trendy kind of chick- you don't know me very well but you choose not to I guess. I know about my future without doubt- I have found peace in that. Why does this bother you?
do you believe he is the divine son of god? if so, you're religious. the fact that you're way too hip and trendy to attend services and have adapted hippy-style self-actualization goals instead of bartering to get into heaven does not change that. if you don't believe jesus is the son of god, you're not a christian.
semantics perhaps- we are all the son of God soulsinging -Divine or otherwise is totally irrelevant to me that is religion. I am not a hip and trendy kind of chick- you don't know me very well but you choose not to I guess. I know about my future without doubt- I have found peace in that. Why does this bother you?
then you are no more a christian than some college kid with a few che guevera posters was part of the revolution. you're just using the bible as a glorified self help book, like AA's big book or the 7 habits of highly effective people.
you finding peace doesnt bother me. i find it kinda pathetic that you claim to know your future, becos nobody knows what happens when we die. you believe or have faith that the book you picked to be your self help guide got it right, that's the extent of your knowledge. but this is what bothers me... the dumbing down of humanity and our unwillingness to let go of outdated superstitions becos we're too weak and scared to face death on real terms. we're still like children aafraid of the boogie man. in the end, it's not that big a deal though, so long as you keep your quaint myths to yourself.
do you believe he is the divine son of god? if so, you're religious. the fact that you're way too hip and trendy to attend services and have adapted hippy-style self-actualization goals instead of bartering to get into heaven does not change that. if you don't believe jesus is the son of god, you're not a christian.
what if you believe we are ALL the son of god, including Jesus? It seems to me that is what Jesus was sayin.
ps. I'm not saying I believe that...
then you aren't christian. you can't claim to be a christian and then just try to dodge the blatant irrationalities of the bible by using some legal hair-splitting to try and convince yourself jesus never claimed to be divine. that's for people too cool and smart to really buy into christianity, but too beholden to their parents and peer pressure to dismiss it for the mythological hokum it is.
so to be a christian you have to believe the bible is 100% literal? It is pretty bold to be able to define a christian in such a narrow sense. Some people would claim I'm a christian because my parents are christian. Some people would define me as a christian because I was baptised and confirmed. Some people would consider me a christian because I think Christ was just as important as anyone else in the history of mankind (ignore the fact that I think he is just as unimportant, too). But because I don't believe the bible is 100% literal, then I am not a christian? Why make that logical leap but not the others?
ps. I don't believe in anything. Hell, sometimes I would have a hard time proving I am real.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
then you aren't christian. you can't claim to be a christian and then just try to dodge the blatant irrationalities of the bible by using some legal hair-splitting to try and convince yourself jesus never claimed to be divine. that's for people too cool and smart to really buy into christianity, but too beholden to their parents and peer pressure to dismiss it for the mythological hokum it is.
so to be a christian you have to believe the bible is 100% literal? It is pretty bold to be able to define a christian in such a narrow sense. Some people would claim I'm a christian because my parents are christian. Some people would define me as a christian because I was baptised and confirmed. Some people would consider me a christian because I think Christ was just as important as anyone else in the history of mankind (ignore the fact that I think he is just as unimportant, too). But because I don't believe the bible is 100% literal, then I am not a christian? Why make that logical leap but not the others?
ps. I don't believe in anything. Hell, sometimes I would have a hard time proving I am real.
that's not remotely what i said. what i said is that you have to believe jesus was divine, and not in some new age hippy bullshit "we're all the children of god" sense. by its very name it means you are a follower of christ and accept his divinity and superiority as a messenger of the will of god. if you don't do that, you're just using the bible as a self help book while you indulge in otherwise standard new age psycho-babble.
do you believe he is the divine son of god? if so, you're religious. the fact that you're way too hip and trendy to attend services and have adapted hippy-style self-actualization goals instead of bartering to get into heaven does not change that. if you don't believe jesus is the son of god, you're not a christian.
semantics perhaps- we are all the son of God soulsinging -Divine or otherwise is totally irrelevant to me that is religion. I am not a hip and trendy kind of chick- you don't know me very well but you choose not to I guess. I know about my future without doubt- I have found peace in that. Why does this bother you?
then you are no more a christian than some college kid with a few che guevera posters was part of the revolution. you're just using the bible as a glorified self help book, like AA's big book or the 7 habits of highly effective people.
you finding peace doesnt bother me. i find it kinda pathetic that you claim to know your future, becos nobody knows what happens when we die. you believe or have faith that the book you picked to be your self help guide got it right, that's the extent of your knowledge. but this is what bothers me... the dumbing down of humanity and our unwillingness to let go of outdated superstitions becos we're too weak and scared to face death on real terms. we're still like children aafraid of the boogie man. in the end, it's not that big a deal though, so long as you keep your quaint myths to yourself.
personally, i think it is pathetic that you call her beliefs pathetic. Why are your beliefs in non-theism any more rationale than a person's theist beliefs?
You're right that nobody knows what happens. Of course. But is seems that you claim to know what happens (nothing). Seems awfully hypocritical to me is all.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
Soulsinging I don't read the bible have never read the bible to any length. I have had a life changing miracle this is how without a doubt I know there is an afterlife for me and am not afraid to leave this world. I have witnessed what God can do and I choose to have Jesus in my life that simple. Too simple for you I think.I do feel you generalize about people in a way that is degrading and feel that might be something you'd like to work on before you meet your maker. Spread the love instead of finding fault with people. Its a much kinder way to live and that alone brings peace.
then you aren't christian. you can't claim to be a christian and then just try to dodge the blatant irrationalities of the bible by using some legal hair-splitting to try and convince yourself jesus never claimed to be divine. that's for people too cool and smart to really buy into christianity, but too beholden to their parents and peer pressure to dismiss it for the mythological hokum it is.
so to be a christian you have to believe the bible is 100% literal? It is pretty bold to be able to define a christian in such a narrow sense. Some people would claim I'm a christian because my parents are christian. Some people would define me as a christian because I was baptised and confirmed. Some people would consider me a christian because I think Christ was just as important as anyone else in the history of mankind (ignore the fact that I think he is just as unimportant, too). But because I don't believe the bible is 100% literal, then I am not a christian? Why make that logical leap but not the others?
ps. I don't believe in anything. Hell, sometimes I would have a hard time proving I am real.
that's not remotely what i said. what i said is that you have to believe jesus was divine, and not in some new age hippy bullshit "we're all the children of god" sense. by its very name it means you are a follower of christ and accept his divinity and superiority as a messenger of the will of god. if you don't do that, you're just using the bible as a self help book while you indulge in otherwise standard new age psycho-babble.
but, it is: "you can't claim to be a christian and then just try to dodge the blatant irrationalities of the bible by using some legal hair-splitting to try and convince yourself jesus never claimed to be divine." Thus, by dodging the irrationalities of the bible one cannot claim to be a christian. It seems we just miscommunicated.
I like your second definition of a christian, and I would agree with that: "by its very name it means you are a follower of christ and accept his divinity and superiority as a messenger of the will of god" Which I do not, so in that sense I am not a christian. But again, to my parents I am, to my grandparents I am, to my mom's church I am... and so on.
It is evident that you condemn, or at least disagree with, new age philosophy by your use of descriptive language. I assume that means you 100% do not believe in it. But if none of us know what happens when we die, isn't every model of the afterlife potentially partially correct? And wouldn't assumptions have to be made to come to the conclusion that any one belief is not at all correct?
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
but, it is: "you can't claim to be a christian and then just try to dodge the blatant irrationalities of the bible by using some legal hair-splitting to try and convince yourself jesus never claimed to be divine." Thus, by dodging the irrationalities of the bible one cannot claim to be a christian. It seems we just miscommunicated.
I like your second definition of a christian, and I would agree with that: "by its very name it means you are a follower of christ and accept his divinity and superiority as a messenger of the will of god" Which I do not, so in that sense I am not a christian. But again, to my parents I am, to my grandparents I am, to my mom's church I am... and so on.
It is evident that you condemn, or at least disagree with, new age philosophy by your use of descriptive language. I assume that means you 100% do not believe in it. But if none of us know what happens when we die, isn't every model of the afterlife potentially partially correct? And wouldn't assumptions have to be made to come to the conclusion that any one belief is not at all correct?
i thought it was clear that i was referring to the subject of jesus' divinity when i talked about irrationality. you expanded it to be a much more general statement than intended.
you're not a christian then. to all of them, they're just hoping you'll come back is all. i'm sure my mom still thinks i'm a christian, doesn't make me one.
no, i don't believe in it. new age philosophy is a bunch of nonsense. it's just self-esteem boosters for people wanting religion but too indecisive or smart to really get into any one religion. so they basically try to get the same sense of comfort christians derive from jesus by making up some irrelevant nonsense about how we're all connected. it's gibberish, but harmless in the sense that it's so vague and meaningless it can't produce any problems.
your last point makes no sense. i don't give a flying fuck that whatever nonsense you or anyone else spews about the afterlife MIGHT be right. who cares? i might be right when i say it's nothing but hot bitches blowing me all day, is that a good reason for you to jump on board? would you trust an investor that talked to you this way? "well, my analysis is definitely possibly partly correct, so why don't you hand over your life savings and we'll get rich!" no way... you'd demand that they give you a little more certainty than "well it's possible that any bullshit i spin could possibly be sorta right."
then you are no more a christian than some college kid with a few che guevera posters was part of the revolution. you're just using the bible as a glorified self help book, like AA's big book or the 7 habits of highly effective people.
you finding peace doesnt bother me. i find it kinda pathetic that you claim to know your future, becos nobody knows what happens when we die. you believe or have faith that the book you picked to be your self help guide got it right, that's the extent of your knowledge. but this is what bothers me... the dumbing down of humanity and our unwillingness to let go of outdated superstitions becos we're too weak and scared to face death on real terms. we're still like children aafraid of the boogie man. in the end, it's not that big a deal though, so long as you keep your quaint myths to yourself.
personally, i think it is pathetic that you call her beliefs pathetic. Why are your beliefs in non-theism any more rationale than a person's theist beliefs?
You're right that nobody knows what happens. Of course. But is seems that you claim to know what happens (nothing). Seems awfully hypocritical to me is all.
i don't recall claiming to know what happens when we die. i have no clue. i was referring to the fact that we can't handle the thought of not being around our loved ones, so we invent stories where we all get together for one big happy reunion somehow. perhaps pathetic was too strong a word, but the fact is that the bible and all other sacred texts/self help books are nothing more than collections of cultural mythology. we laugh at what native americans believed, we laugh at what the romans believed, then we tell people we know OUR myths are fact! it's intellectually laughable to convince yourself that somehow the current vogue mythology is any different or more substantive than the hundreds that have gone before.
Soulsinging I don't read the bible have never read the bible to any length. I have had a life changing miracle this is how without a doubt I know there is an afterlife for me and am not afraid to leave this world. I have witnessed what God can do and I choose to have Jesus in my life that simple. Too simple for you I think.I do feel you generalize about people in a way that is degrading and feel that might be something you'd like to work on before you meet your maker. Spread the love instead of finding fault with people. Its a much kinder way to live and that alone brings peace.
i'm not generalizing about people, i'm generalizing about the general absurdity of religious faith and "knowledge." i had a life changing miracle once too, took me years to realize how i'd been deluding myself becos there was a lot of comfort in that pretense that you're special and someone cares about you. but it's ultimately a delusion.
as to my maker, i've already met her... my mom, with a bit of help from dad. they made me by fucking. god didn't. and should i ever wind up at the pearly gates, my conscience will be clear. i am not afraid of your god.
i spread plenty of love. it's just more fun and spiritually fulfilling to rant about the things that bother me, like the festivua airing of grievances
personally, i think it is pathetic that you call her beliefs pathetic. Why are your beliefs in non-theism any more rationale than a person's theist beliefs?
You're right that nobody knows what happens. Of course. But is seems that you claim to know what happens (nothing). Seems awfully hypocritical to me is all.
im gonna assume you meant to say rational here... and ask you if you know what rational actually means.
theism isnt based on logic or reason... its based on faith. therefore a non theist has come about their 'beliefs' in a more rational way than a thiest who requires no proof in anything yet who seeks it in the most irrational manner and in the absence of any real substantiated evidence.
hear my name
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hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Soulsinging I don't read the bible have never read the bible to any length. I have had a life changing miracle this is how without a doubt I know there is an afterlife for me and am not afraid to leave this world. I have witnessed what God can do and I choose to have Jesus in my life that simple. Too simple for you I think.I do feel you generalize about people in a way that is degrading and feel that might be something you'd like to work on before you meet your maker. Spread the love instead of finding fault with people. Its a much kinder way to live and that alone brings peace.
i'm not generalizing about people, i'm generalizing about the general absurdity of religious faith and "knowledge." i had a life changing miracle once too, took me years to realize how i'd been deluding myself becos there was a lot of comfort in that pretense that you're special and someone cares about you. but it's ultimately a delusion.
as to my maker, i've already met her... my mom, with a bit of help from dad. they made me by fucking. god didn't. and should i ever wind up at the pearly gates, my conscience will be clear. i am not afraid of your god.
You shouldn't be afraid- you have nothing to fear. But has anyone ever told you you are maybe a pessimist? It also seems to me you enjoy trying to take away something that some one has found. I do not try to change your beliefs why would an atheist want to change mine? If you believe I am delusional leave me to it- I am very happy in fact blessed in my knowledge and in the knowledge that someday you will be presently surprised. You may wish you had been kinder though to those who have different beliefs than yours if not tried a softer presentation.
I do not try to change your beliefs why would an atheist want to change mine? If you believe I am delusional leave me to it- I am very happy in fact blessed in my knowledge and in the knowledge that someday you will be presently surprised. You may wish you had been kinder though to those who have different beliefs than yours if not tried a softer presentation.
this is why i attack religion. i got tired of sitting there and letting condescending comments like "someday i'll be presently surprised" when i become as enlightened as you about the afterlife or whatever. so i started dishing it out. the only difference is i tell you directly i think you're wrong, and religious folks like to go at it passive-aggressively so they can cry about tolerance when someone tries to say what they "know" in response.
I do not try to change your beliefs why would an atheist want to change mine? If you believe I am delusional leave me to it- I am very happy in fact blessed in my knowledge and in the knowledge that someday you will be presently surprised. You may wish you had been kinder though to those who have different beliefs than yours if not tried a softer presentation.
this is why i attack religion. i got tired of sitting there and letting condescending comments like "someday i'll be presently surprised" when i become as enlightened as you about the afterlife or whatever. so i started dishing it out. the only difference is i tell you directly i think you're wrong, and religious folks like to go at it passive-aggressively so they can cry about tolerance when someone tries to say what they "know" in response.
I think you know much more about condescending comments than I. And unfortunately you don't just attack religion you attack people.
I do not try to change your beliefs why would an atheist want to change mine? If you believe I am delusional leave me to it- I am very happy in fact blessed in my knowledge and in the knowledge that someday you will be presently surprised. You may wish you had been kinder though to those who have different beliefs than yours if not tried a softer presentation.
this is why i attack religion. i got tired of sitting there and letting condescending comments like "someday i'll be presently surprised" when i become as enlightened as you about the afterlife or whatever. so i started dishing it out. the only difference is i tell you directly i think you're wrong, and religious folks like to go at it passive-aggressively so they can cry about tolerance when someone tries to say what they "know" in response.
I think you know much more about condescending comments than I. And unfortunately you don't just attack religion you attack people.
I would have to agree with SS on this one. My brother became born again several years ago, and in the midst of all that, attempted his passive-aggressive "conversion" of our family. He would drop little comments like "god loves you" and all this stuff. It was annoying. He has since come to his senses and keeps it to himself and his family. And our relationship is much more fruitful for it.
And I would also have to agree that the reason SOME religious folks get on my nerves is that we'll all "be pleasantly surprised". It comes off as arrogant and even demeaning (like you feel sorry for us for not seeing the your truth). It's tanamount to saying "can't wait to say I told you so!", said through a shit-eating grin.
Just keep it at "this is what I believe", not "what I believe is right, and you will find out sooner or later".
Gimli 1993
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St. Paul 2014
With much due respect- I'm not sure you read through the personal attacks which were greatly unnecessary in my debate with Soulsinging.It would be good to know how that made me feel. It seems to me that people don't understand what a person of faith feels. I always come back to Eddie's words- "I don't want to think I want to feel" its a huge part of faith. Don't think so much just try to feel. It may not be the message in his song but again FOR ME has meaning and I try to feel. I do not in my personal life try to convert anyone because I do not follow a religion- so what's to convert. Your relative being born again, which is not me, is I am assuming trying to share his new found joy. Which can be annoying- but now he keepps to himself and family which you say is so much better. OK
Soulsinging likes to label people maybe to have them "fit"- which is I guess an easy way to try to understand others and its kind of degrading.My original post just states that I am at peace, I am a spiritual person and I am very fine with that. That for me being a Christian doesn't mean you must read the bible- do certain rituals, even believe Christ was more than a most wonderful man. Everybody finds there own way in this life- I have found mine and being called hip and trendy etc just belittles what is in my heart. Also when I said about being pleasantly surprised that is not a "nanner nanner boo boo" thing- I truly know- if you would like to think its part of a delusion thats ok with me its better than thinking I meant it like you took it. I still don't understand though why an atheist would care so much about how another feels or feel threatened or angry especially when no one is trying to convert anyone here. And even if a born again family members speaks on the subject I would think embracing him but clearly not following him might be a better alternative.
With much due respect- I'm not sure you read through the personal attacks which were greatly unnecessary in my debate with Soulsinging.It would be good to know how that made me feel. It seems to me that people don't understand what a person of faith feels. I always come back to Eddie's words- "I don't want to think I want to feel" its a huge part of faith. Don't think so much just try to feel. It may not be the message in his song but again FOR ME has meaning and I try to feel. I do not in my personal life try to convert anyone because I do not follow a religion- so what's to convert. Your relative being born again, which is not me, is I am assuming trying to share his new found joy. Which can be annoying- but now he keepps to himself and family which you say is so much better. OK
Soulsinging likes to label people maybe to have them "fit"- which is I guess an easy way to try to understand others and its kind of degrading.My original post just states that I am at peace, I am a spiritual person and I am very fine with that. That for me being a Christian doesn't mean you must read the bible- do certain rituals, even believe Christ was more than a most wonderful man. Everybody finds there own way in this life- I have found mine and being called hip and trendy etc just belittles what is in my heart. Also when I said about being pleasantly surprised that is not a "nanner nanner boo boo" thing- I truly know- if you would like to think its part of a delusion thats ok with me its better than thinking I meant it like you took it. I still don't understand though why an atheist would care so much about how another feels or feel threatened or angry especially when no one is trying to convert anyone here. And even if a born again family members speaks on the subject I would think embracing him but clearly not following him might be a better alternative.
it's impossible to embrace someone when they are trying to change you. I told him I respected his right to his beliefs, but they aren't mine, so don't try to make them so. and we are good now. it took a while, but we found a balance. we even talk religion sometimes. and now we're in a band together. so it's all good.
no, maybe I didn't see the entire thread on soul's "personal attacks", but to me that's neither here nor there on my point. I am in no way threatened by you or anyone who believes in God (theists holding this notion is part of the problem). The exact opposite is true, to be honest. It is a mere annoyance when someone like Kirk Cameron is preaching that non-theists are all deluded. That's insulting. And he's not a minority. I won't go so far as to say he's the norm, but he's by far not a minority in not just the Christian faith, but in any faith. I mean, really, why would they be any different? Christ's teachings were to gather as many to the flock as possible, it's just many in the religious community can't take no for an answer, probably because they just can't understand, or refuse to understand, why anyone would reject their beliefs. It's that underlying arrogance that annoys some of us.
You say you are at peace and just want to be left alone in your faith and you are not trying to convert anyone. Doesn't that go both ways? I am not trying to convert you either. My MO is for people to be happy, however they reach that pinnacle is not my concern.
I believe Jesus was a man. I believe he was a great man (or an unbelievable con-man). I don't believe he was the son of any god. The only god I know is Nature.
You can say you "know for sure" that there is an afterlife or whatever it was you were referring to. That's fine if you can "know in your heart", but LET US BE CLEAR: NOBODY KNOWS, in the traditional sense of knowledge. It cannot be proven, either way. You don't know, I don't know, the Pope doesn't know, not even Bono knows. (although he may think he does)
You contradict yourself saying you "know" and you have faith. The definition of faith is: the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. So people of faith claiming they know anything for sure with regards to said faith is an oxymoron.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
With much due respect- I'm not sure you read through the personal attacks which were greatly unnecessary in my debate with Soulsinging.It would be good to know how that made me feel. It seems to me that people don't understand what a person of faith feels. I always come back to Eddie's words- "I don't want to think I want to feel" its a huge part of faith. Don't think so much just try to feel. It may not be the message in his song but again FOR ME has meaning and I try to feel. I do not in my personal life try to convert anyone because I do not follow a religion- so what's to convert. Your relative being born again, which is not me, is I am assuming trying to share his new found joy. Which can be annoying- but now he keepps to himself and family which you say is so much better. OK
Soulsinging likes to label people maybe to have them "fit"- which is I guess an easy way to try to understand others and its kind of degrading.My original post just states that I am at peace, I am a spiritual person and I am very fine with that. That for me being a Christian doesn't mean you must read the bible- do certain rituals, even believe Christ was more than a most wonderful man. Everybody finds there own way in this life- I have found mine and being called hip and trendy etc just belittles what is in my heart. Also when I said about being pleasantly surprised that is not a "nanner nanner boo boo" thing- I truly know- if you would like to think its part of a delusion thats ok with me its better than thinking I meant it like you took it. I still don't understand though why an atheist would care so much about how another feels or feel threatened or angry especially when no one is trying to convert anyone here.
i still don't understand why a theist would care so much about how another feels or feel threatened or hurt especially when no one is trying to convert anyone here. you said what you "know" (there's a christian afterlife and we're all going whether we like it or not), and i said what i "know" (the bible is no different from any other mythological text and it's absurd to give it any more weight than we give the odyssey or aeneid). the fact that you had your feelings hurt by my views is not my problem, just like it's not your problem that i'm annoyed by your condescending certainty that we're all one day going to find out you were right.
Johnny Sitar
Well it appears we agree on most everything but because of a very personal life changing event I can tell you without one shred of doubt there is a God and an afterlife- some people will not except that but it is the only explanation for what I experienced. I am very comfortable in my "faith" even though you say it shouldn't be called that if it is knowledge. That again seems like its being way over thought instead of felt. Which seems to be a running theme
Johnny Sitar
Well it appears we agree on most everything but because of a very personal life changing event I can tell you without one shred of doubt there is a God and an afterlife- some people will not except that but it is the only explanation for what I experienced. I am very comfortable in my "faith" even though you say it shouldn't be called that if it is knowledge. That again seems like its being way over thought instead of felt. Which seems to be a running theme
no man...to suggest that you are worthy of this insight from god and 99.999% of the rest of the world isn't doesn't work
when the faithful are backed into a corner they always pull out the "there is no explanation for what I experienced" junk
yes there is...it's called "your imagination"
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Johnny Sitar
Well it appears we agree on most everything but because of a very personal life changing event I can tell you without one shred of doubt there is a God and an afterlife- some people will not except that but it is the only explanation for what I experienced. I am very comfortable in my "faith" even though you say it shouldn't be called that if it is knowledge. That again seems like its being way over thought instead of felt. Which seems to be a running theme
according to Meyer's Briggs, I am too a feeler (that sounds sick, but that's what they call it). We just disagree on what it is we actually think about.
Without specifics, I will have to respectfully reject your claim of knowing there is a god without doubt. There will be doubt until we are worm food.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
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christmas for one, it was a pagan festival of something can not remember will go look it up.
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christianity is still a religion even if it's not catholic. there is a set sacred text, set core beliefs, certain rituals and traditions that must be recognized. you all act like being a christian is just like saying 'i'm a pacifist.' there's more to it than spirituality/ideology. you must accept certain beliefs to be christian. it is a religion, even if you're not going to a catholic mass weekly.
I just don't know
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
do you believe he is the divine son of god? if so, you're religious. the fact that you're way too hip and trendy to attend services and have adapted hippy-style self-actualization goals instead of bartering to get into heaven does not change that. if you don't believe jesus is the son of god, you're not a christian.
what if you believe we are ALL the son of god, including Jesus? It seems to me that is what Jesus was sayin.
ps. I'm not saying I believe that...
then you aren't christian. you can't claim to be a christian and then just try to dodge the blatant irrationalities of the bible by using some legal hair-splitting to try and convince yourself jesus never claimed to be divine. that's for people too cool and smart to really buy into christianity, but too beholden to their parents and peer pressure to dismiss it for the mythological hokum it is.
then you are no more a christian than some college kid with a few che guevera posters was part of the revolution. you're just using the bible as a glorified self help book, like AA's big book or the 7 habits of highly effective people.
you finding peace doesnt bother me. i find it kinda pathetic that you claim to know your future, becos nobody knows what happens when we die. you believe or have faith that the book you picked to be your self help guide got it right, that's the extent of your knowledge. but this is what bothers me... the dumbing down of humanity and our unwillingness to let go of outdated superstitions becos we're too weak and scared to face death on real terms. we're still like children aafraid of the boogie man. in the end, it's not that big a deal though, so long as you keep your quaint myths to yourself.
so to be a christian you have to believe the bible is 100% literal? It is pretty bold to be able to define a christian in such a narrow sense. Some people would claim I'm a christian because my parents are christian. Some people would define me as a christian because I was baptised and confirmed. Some people would consider me a christian because I think Christ was just as important as anyone else in the history of mankind (ignore the fact that I think he is just as unimportant, too). But because I don't believe the bible is 100% literal, then I am not a christian? Why make that logical leap but not the others?
ps. I don't believe in anything. Hell, sometimes I would have a hard time proving I am real.
that's not remotely what i said. what i said is that you have to believe jesus was divine, and not in some new age hippy bullshit "we're all the children of god" sense. by its very name it means you are a follower of christ and accept his divinity and superiority as a messenger of the will of god. if you don't do that, you're just using the bible as a self help book while you indulge in otherwise standard new age psycho-babble.
personally, i think it is pathetic that you call her beliefs pathetic. Why are your beliefs in non-theism any more rationale than a person's theist beliefs?
You're right that nobody knows what happens. Of course. But is seems that you claim to know what happens (nothing). Seems awfully hypocritical to me is all.
but, it is: "you can't claim to be a christian and then just try to dodge the blatant irrationalities of the bible by using some legal hair-splitting to try and convince yourself jesus never claimed to be divine." Thus, by dodging the irrationalities of the bible one cannot claim to be a christian. It seems we just miscommunicated.
I like your second definition of a christian, and I would agree with that: "by its very name it means you are a follower of christ and accept his divinity and superiority as a messenger of the will of god" Which I do not, so in that sense I am not a christian. But again, to my parents I am, to my grandparents I am, to my mom's church I am... and so on.
It is evident that you condemn, or at least disagree with, new age philosophy by your use of descriptive language. I assume that means you 100% do not believe in it. But if none of us know what happens when we die, isn't every model of the afterlife potentially partially correct? And wouldn't assumptions have to be made to come to the conclusion that any one belief is not at all correct?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i thought it was clear that i was referring to the subject of jesus' divinity when i talked about irrationality. you expanded it to be a much more general statement than intended.
you're not a christian then. to all of them, they're just hoping you'll come back is all. i'm sure my mom still thinks i'm a christian, doesn't make me one.
no, i don't believe in it. new age philosophy is a bunch of nonsense. it's just self-esteem boosters for people wanting religion but too indecisive or smart to really get into any one religion. so they basically try to get the same sense of comfort christians derive from jesus by making up some irrelevant nonsense about how we're all connected. it's gibberish, but harmless in the sense that it's so vague and meaningless it can't produce any problems.
your last point makes no sense. i don't give a flying fuck that whatever nonsense you or anyone else spews about the afterlife MIGHT be right. who cares? i might be right when i say it's nothing but hot bitches blowing me all day, is that a good reason for you to jump on board? would you trust an investor that talked to you this way? "well, my analysis is definitely possibly partly correct, so why don't you hand over your life savings and we'll get rich!" no way... you'd demand that they give you a little more certainty than "well it's possible that any bullshit i spin could possibly be sorta right."
i don't recall claiming to know what happens when we die. i have no clue. i was referring to the fact that we can't handle the thought of not being around our loved ones, so we invent stories where we all get together for one big happy reunion somehow. perhaps pathetic was too strong a word, but the fact is that the bible and all other sacred texts/self help books are nothing more than collections of cultural mythology. we laugh at what native americans believed, we laugh at what the romans believed, then we tell people we know OUR myths are fact! it's intellectually laughable to convince yourself that somehow the current vogue mythology is any different or more substantive than the hundreds that have gone before.
i'm not generalizing about people, i'm generalizing about the general absurdity of religious faith and "knowledge." i had a life changing miracle once too, took me years to realize how i'd been deluding myself becos there was a lot of comfort in that pretense that you're special and someone cares about you. but it's ultimately a delusion.
as to my maker, i've already met her... my mom, with a bit of help from dad. they made me by fucking. god didn't. and should i ever wind up at the pearly gates, my conscience will be clear. i am not afraid of your god.
i spread plenty of love. it's just more fun and spiritually fulfilling to rant about the things that bother me, like the festivua airing of grievances
im gonna assume you meant to say rational here... and ask you if you know what rational actually means.
theism isnt based on logic or reason... its based on faith. therefore a non theist has come about their 'beliefs' in a more rational way than a thiest who requires no proof in anything yet who seeks it in the most irrational manner and in the absence of any real substantiated evidence.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i'm not generalizing about people, i'm generalizing about the general absurdity of religious faith and "knowledge." i had a life changing miracle once too, took me years to realize how i'd been deluding myself becos there was a lot of comfort in that pretense that you're special and someone cares about you. but it's ultimately a delusion.
as to my maker, i've already met her... my mom, with a bit of help from dad. they made me by fucking. god didn't. and should i ever wind up at the pearly gates, my conscience will be clear. i am not afraid of your god.
You shouldn't be afraid- you have nothing to fear. But has anyone ever told you you are maybe a pessimist? It also seems to me you enjoy trying to take away something that some one has found. I do not try to change your beliefs why would an atheist want to change mine? If you believe I am delusional leave me to it- I am very happy in fact blessed in my knowledge and in the knowledge that someday you will be presently surprised. You may wish you had been kinder though to those who have different beliefs than yours if not tried a softer presentation.
this is why i attack religion. i got tired of sitting there and letting condescending comments like "someday i'll be presently surprised" when i become as enlightened as you about the afterlife or whatever. so i started dishing it out. the only difference is i tell you directly i think you're wrong, and religious folks like to go at it passive-aggressively so they can cry about tolerance when someone tries to say what they "know" in response.
I would have to agree with SS on this one. My brother became born again several years ago, and in the midst of all that, attempted his passive-aggressive "conversion" of our family. He would drop little comments like "god loves you" and all this stuff. It was annoying. He has since come to his senses and keeps it to himself and his family. And our relationship is much more fruitful for it.
And I would also have to agree that the reason SOME religious folks get on my nerves is that we'll all "be pleasantly surprised". It comes off as arrogant and even demeaning (like you feel sorry for us for not seeing the your truth). It's tanamount to saying "can't wait to say I told you so!", said through a shit-eating grin.
Just keep it at "this is what I believe", not "what I believe is right, and you will find out sooner or later".
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Soulsinging likes to label people maybe to have them "fit"- which is I guess an easy way to try to understand others and its kind of degrading.My original post just states that I am at peace, I am a spiritual person and I am very fine with that. That for me being a Christian doesn't mean you must read the bible- do certain rituals, even believe Christ was more than a most wonderful man. Everybody finds there own way in this life- I have found mine and being called hip and trendy etc just belittles what is in my heart. Also when I said about being pleasantly surprised that is not a "nanner nanner boo boo" thing- I truly know- if you would like to think its part of a delusion thats ok with me its better than thinking I meant it like you took it. I still don't understand though why an atheist would care so much about how another feels or feel threatened or angry especially when no one is trying to convert anyone here. And even if a born again family members speaks on the subject I would think embracing him but clearly not following him might be a better alternative.
it's impossible to embrace someone when they are trying to change you. I told him I respected his right to his beliefs, but they aren't mine, so don't try to make them so. and we are good now. it took a while, but we found a balance. we even talk religion sometimes. and now we're in a band together. so it's all good.
no, maybe I didn't see the entire thread on soul's "personal attacks", but to me that's neither here nor there on my point. I am in no way threatened by you or anyone who believes in God (theists holding this notion is part of the problem). The exact opposite is true, to be honest. It is a mere annoyance when someone like Kirk Cameron is preaching that non-theists are all deluded. That's insulting. And he's not a minority. I won't go so far as to say he's the norm, but he's by far not a minority in not just the Christian faith, but in any faith. I mean, really, why would they be any different? Christ's teachings were to gather as many to the flock as possible, it's just many in the religious community can't take no for an answer, probably because they just can't understand, or refuse to understand, why anyone would reject their beliefs. It's that underlying arrogance that annoys some of us.
You say you are at peace and just want to be left alone in your faith and you are not trying to convert anyone. Doesn't that go both ways? I am not trying to convert you either. My MO is for people to be happy, however they reach that pinnacle is not my concern.
I believe Jesus was a man. I believe he was a great man (or an unbelievable con-man). I don't believe he was the son of any god. The only god I know is Nature.
You can say you "know for sure" that there is an afterlife or whatever it was you were referring to. That's fine if you can "know in your heart", but LET US BE CLEAR: NOBODY KNOWS, in the traditional sense of knowledge. It cannot be proven, either way. You don't know, I don't know, the Pope doesn't know, not even Bono knows. (although he may think he does)
You contradict yourself saying you "know" and you have faith. The definition of faith is: the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. So people of faith claiming they know anything for sure with regards to said faith is an oxymoron.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
i still don't understand why a theist would care so much about how another feels or feel threatened or hurt especially when no one is trying to convert anyone here. you said what you "know" (there's a christian afterlife and we're all going whether we like it or not), and i said what i "know" (the bible is no different from any other mythological text and it's absurd to give it any more weight than we give the odyssey or aeneid). the fact that you had your feelings hurt by my views is not my problem, just like it's not your problem that i'm annoyed by your condescending certainty that we're all one day going to find out you were right.
Well it appears we agree on most everything
no man...to suggest that you are worthy of this insight from god and 99.999% of the rest of the world isn't doesn't work
when the faithful are backed into a corner they always pull out the "there is no explanation for what I experienced" junk
yes there is...it's called "your imagination"
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
according to Meyer's Briggs, I am too a feeler (that sounds sick, but that's what they call it). We just disagree on what it is we actually think about.
Without specifics, I will have to respectfully reject your claim of knowing there is a god without doubt. There will be doubt until we are worm food.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014