Let's talk war!!

Cosmo

mb262200 wrote:

I'm open to this. I'm going to start research on the Taliban. I should have used Al Qaida instead. You're not going to defend them........are you?

...
The only Americans I can think of that supported the mujahideen was John Rambo... and Ronald Reagan.

OffHeGoes29

Cosmo wrote:

mb262200 wrote:

I'm open to this. I'm going to start research on the Taliban. I should have used Al Qaida instead. You're not going to defend them........are you?

...
The only Americans I can think of that supported the mujahideen was John Rambo... and Ronald Reagan.

Rambo! .......awesome

gimmesometruth27

[quote="mb262200I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?[/quote]



i have been avoiding this thread because i am sick of talking about wars, but i need to reply to this post. if someone came over here and tried to change you would you willingly change? most likely not. you would fight them and defend your way of life right? so do not be afraid of anyone coming over here and changing us. its just not going to happen. even if we ever get hit again is it really going to change the american way of life very much? 9/11 changed alot of things in small ways and a few things in major ways, all of which has limited our freedoms in some ways. the government has changed our way of life as a result of the 9/11 attacks. the terrorists did not change anything alone. we need to keep that in mind in this debate. yes we were hit, once, but they did not take over our country like everyone seems so scared will happen.

to answer your question, we are in afghanistan as a result of 9/11. i can understand going into afghanistan. iraq was a detour in the "war on terror" which is a farce anyway. terrorism is a tactic, so how can you wage war on a tactic? that would be like us waging a "war on guerilla war", or us waging a "war on trench warfare". you can not win a war against a tactic.

iraq having weapons of mass destruction is the 2nd biggest lie ever told, with the first being that "they hate us for our freedom".

dustinpardue

The war on terror is as winnable as the war on drugs. You can't win a war against something intangible or without a face, leader, or headquarters. It is absolutely ridiculous. The war is a lobby, nothing more. Us fighting that war where we are in the world is protecting the business interest of a lot of lobbyists and the companies they represent.

I want to like Obama, i really do. I want to think he is doing the right things and I am not ready to give up on him yet. So I will stick with supporting him for a while longer.

BTW, there is strong evidence supporting Bin Laden dying on 12/26/01. Our government doesn't want bin Laden to be dead or be found, it is the "new" way to sell the war to the public. People are no longer falling for Iraq and WMD's under Bush, Obama is selling it with Bin Laden. If he ever is actually captured, how would the US government sell the idea of the war from that point on?

dustinpardue

Where is driftingbythestorm when we need him?

Cosmo

dustinpardue wrote:

...
BTW, there is strong evidence supporting Bin Laden dying on 12/26/01. Our government doesn't want bin Laden to be dead or be found, it is the "new" way to sell the war to the public. People are no longer falling for Iraq and WMD's under Bush, Obama is selling it with Bin Laden. If he ever is actually captured, how would the US government sell the idea of the war from that point on?

...
I know. How is it that Usama Bin Laden lives in a cave... and requires a dialysis machine? You'd think it'd be easy enough to find him... just look for the cave with the world's longest extension cord coming out of it.

Cosmo

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

mb262200 wrote:

I'm open to this. I'm going to start research on the Taliban. I should have used Al Qaida instead. You're not going to defend them........are you?

...
The only Americans I can think of that supported the mujahideen was John Rambo... and Ronald Reagan.

Rambo! .......awesome

...
I know. Do they even show that one where Rambo goes to Afghanistan to train Usama bin Ladin and his future al Qaeda cohorts how to set I.E.D.'s anymore? I haven't seen it pop up on the Saturday movies on TNT anymore.

OffHeGoes29

Cosmo wrote:

I know. Do they even show that one where Rambo goes to Afghanistan to train Usama bin Ladin and his future al Qaeda cohorts how to set I.E.D.'s anymore? I haven't seen it pop up on the Saturday movies on TNT anymore.

"Nothing is over, NOTHING!"

Yeah, I can see that movie going over like a fart in church now.

OffHeGoes29

dustinpardue wrote:

The war on terror is as winnable as the war on drugs. You can't win a war against something intangible or without a face, leader, or headquarters. It is absolutely ridiculous. The war is a lobby, nothing more. Us fighting that war where we are in the world is protecting the business interest of a lot of lobbyists and the companies they represent.

I want to like Obama, i really do. I want to think he is doing the right things and I am not ready to give up on him yet. So I will stick with supporting him for a while longer.

BTW, there is strong evidence supporting Bin Laden dying on 12/26/01. Our government doesn't want bin Laden to be dead or be found, it is the "new" way to sell the war to the public. People are no longer falling for Iraq and WMD's under Bush, Obama is selling it with Bin Laden. If he ever is actually captured, how would the US government sell the idea of the war from that point on?

You can't compare this to the war on drugs, the war on drugs isn't sucsessful because of the demand for it by the American people. I don't think there is a demand for car bombing civilians or stray air strikes. Its a matter of time, the afghanistan has a long road ahead.

polaris_x

mb262200 wrote:

I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?

are people forgetting decades of us foreign policy and imperialism? ... in any case - september 11th was the best thing to happen to the people that are behind these wars ...

you guys here about the midtown NYC stabbing the other day - the culprit was a veteran, killed himself that nite ... your gov't are sending kids in to a place to ultimately fucking turn some country into a pile of shit so your big fucking corporations can make a shitload of money - all the while sacrificing the young kids who enlist ...

polaris_x

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

You can't compare this to the war on drugs, the war on drugs isn't sucsessful because of the demand for it by the American people. I don't think there is a demand for car bombing civilians or stray air strikes. Its a matter of time, the afghanistan has a long road ahead.

do you know what the margins are on rockets and smart bombs? ... on fighter jets? ... also - think of how much that contract is worth to now rebuild that area they bombed? ... it's all about the money ...

OffHeGoes29

polaris_x wrote:

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

You can't compare this to the war on drugs, the war on drugs isn't sucsessful because of the demand for it by the American people. I don't think there is a demand for car bombing civilians or stray air strikes. Its a matter of time, the afghanistan has a long road ahead.

do you know what the margins are on rockets and smart bombs? ... on fighter jets? ... also - think of how much that contract is worth to now rebuild that area they bombed? ... it's all about the money ...

All too well.......

hollow bottle

There is a real enemy out there and they do need to be hunted down. They hate us and our way of life. The war in Iraq has only worsened our cause. The real problem resides in Saudi Arabia. But our presidents bow down to them. We can't change their society nor should we. We have no right. But we do need to respond to the growing antiwestern philosophy of the extremists. If we don't, more buildings will crumble and many more lives will be lost.

Commy

hollow bottle wrote:

There is a real enemy out there and they do need to be hunted down. They hate us and our way of life. The war in Iraq has only worsened our cause. The real problem resides in Saudi Arabia. But our presidents bow down to them. We can't change their society nor should we. We have no right. But we do need to respond to the growing antiwestern philosophy of the extremists. If we don't, more buildings will crumble and many more lives will be lost.

have you ever wondered why there is an "anti-western" sentiment in the first place?

thechristianarchy

I think Ed said it best in Unthought Known... 'dream the dreams of other men, then you'll be no ones rival'. Why is war even a consideration? We are all human beings, with the same dreams of a peaceful life, family, friends and love. Murdoch tells you that [insert latest threat here] hates you, and you believe it? Have you been to [iraq, iran, afghanistan]? spoken to any locals? seen the beautiful way of life that has been crushed by the desperation and loss caused by violence?

Tolstoy wisely wrote [paraphrased] 'we deceive ourselves by asserting that goverment is not what it really is, one set of men banded together to oppress another set of men, but, as shown by science, is the representation of the citizens in their collective capacity... history shows that government is in its essence always a force acting in violation of justice. Justice can have no binding force on a ruler or rulers who keep men, deluded and drilled in readiness for acts of viloence - soldiers, and by means of them control others. And so governments can never be brought to consent to diminish the number of these drilled slaves, who constitute their whole power and importance... still there are people who believe [that governments will listen to their pleas for peace] this and busy themselves over peace congresses, books etc. And governments express thier sympathy and make show of encouraging it. In the same way they pretend to support temperance in societies, while they are living principally on the drunkenness off the people; and pretend to encourage education, when their whole strength is based on ignorance; and to support constitutional freedom, when their strength rests on the absence of freedom; and to be anxious for the improvement of the condition of the working classes, when their very existence depends on their oppression; and to support Christianity, when Christianity destroys all goverment.'

So let's do something about it. So your government thinks that it can spend your hard earned tax dollars terrorising the earth? What if enough people said enough - we dont pay tax if any of those dollars are used to propogate violence on earth - whether that is through war or the increased militarisation of police forces. The true nature of governments worldwide would soon rear its ugly head.

Commy

thechristianarchy wrote:

I think Ed said it best in Unthought Known... 'dream the dreams of other men, then you'll be no ones rival'. Why is war even a consideration? We are all human beings, with the same dreams of a peaceful life, family, friends and love. Murdoch tells you that [insert latest threat here] hates you, and you believe it? Have you been to [iraq, iran, afghanistan]? spoken to any locals? seen the beautiful way of life that has been crushed by the desperation and loss caused by violence?

Tolstoy wisely wrote [paraphrased] 'we deceive ourselves by asserting that goverment is not what it really is, one set of men banded together to oppress another set of men, but, as shown by science, is the representation of the citizens in their collective capacity... history shows that government is in its essence always a force acting in violation of justice. Justice can have no binding force on a ruler or rulers who keep men, deluded and drilled in readiness for acts of viloence - soldiers, and by means of them control others. And so governments can never be brought to consent to diminish the number of these drilled slaves, who constitute their whole power and importance... still there are people who believe [that governments will listen to their pleas for peace] this and busy themselves over peace congresses, books etc. And governments express thier sympathy and make show of encouraging it. In the same way they pretend to support temperance in societies, while they are living principally on the drunkenness off the people; and pretend to encourage education, when their whole strength is based on ignorance; and to support constitutional freedom, when their strength rests on the absence of freedom; and to be anxious for the improvement of the condition of the working classes, when their very existence depends on their oppression; and to support Christianity, when Christianity destroys all goverment.'

So let's do something about it. So your government thinks that it can spend your hard earned tax dollars terrorising the earth? What if enough people said enough - we dont pay tax if any of those dollars are used to propogate violence on earth - whether that is through war or the increased militarisation of police forces. The true nature of governments worldwide would soon rear its ugly head.

or more damaging.....if we refused to work.


we stop working, they don't have a country to run, or state or county or city....if we don't work, they have nothing to rule. that is our power. we run the society they rule. if we refuse to participate...that's it. nothing left.

OffHeGoes29

Commy wrote:

thechristianarchy wrote:

I think Ed said it best in Unthought Known... 'dream the dreams of other men, then you'll be no ones rival'. Why is war even a consideration? We are all human beings, with the same dreams of a peaceful life, family, friends and love. Murdoch tells you that [insert latest threat here] hates you, and you believe it? Have you been to [iraq, iran, afghanistan]? spoken to any locals? seen the beautiful way of life that has been crushed by the desperation and loss caused by violence?

Tolstoy wisely wrote [paraphrased] 'we deceive ourselves by asserting that goverment is not what it really is, one set of men banded together to oppress another set of men, but, as shown by science, is the representation of the citizens in their collective capacity... history shows that government is in its essence always a force acting in violation of justice. Justice can have no binding force on a ruler or rulers who keep men, deluded and drilled in readiness for acts of viloence - soldiers, and by means of them control others. And so governments can never be brought to consent to diminish the number of these drilled slaves, who constitute their whole power and importance... still there are people who believe [that governments will listen to their pleas for peace] this and busy themselves over peace congresses, books etc. And governments express thier sympathy and make show of encouraging it. In the same way they pretend to support temperance in societies, while they are living principally on the drunkenness off the people; and pretend to encourage education, when their whole strength is based on ignorance; and to support constitutional freedom, when their strength rests on the absence of freedom; and to be anxious for the improvement of the condition of the working classes, when their very existence depends on their oppression; and to support Christianity, when Christianity destroys all goverment.'

So let's do something about it. So your government thinks that it can spend your hard earned tax dollars terrorising the earth? What if enough people said enough - we dont pay tax if any of those dollars are used to propogate violence on earth - whether that is through war or the increased militarisation of police forces. The true nature of governments worldwide would soon rear its ugly head.

or more damaging.....if we refused to work.


we stop working, they don't have a country to run, or state or county or city....if we don't work, they have nothing to rule. that is our power. we run the society they rule. if we refuse to participate...that's it. nothing left.

Some of us need to eat and have a roof over our heads.

hollow bottle

Commy wrote:

hollow bottle wrote:

There is a real enemy out there and they do need to be hunted down. They hate us and our way of life. The war in Iraq has only worsened our cause. The real problem resides in Saudi Arabia. But our presidents bow down to them. We can't change their society nor should we. We have no right. But we do need to respond to the growing antiwestern philosophy of the extremists. If we don't, more buildings will crumble and many more lives will be lost.

have you ever wondered why there is an "anti-western" sentiment in the first place?

Yes. Have you? Soviet Union, Chinese, Islamic, German...? Maybe with should hate israel, that should help the cause. There has been anti-western sentiment for a long time from many areas of the world. Where women can never have an education or vote and have their clitoris removed. Where Jews and those with poor genes were in an experiement to be removed from the gene pool. Where millions of innocent people were being murdered by their own leader. Where old women are being stoned for showing too much leg. Where the highest capital punishment rate is, so that the organs of the killed can be sold for profit. I guess you want to ignore these things and talk with these people. It has never worked and it never will.

soulsinging

hollow bottle wrote:

Commy wrote:

hollow bottle wrote:

There is a real enemy out there and they do need to be hunted down. They hate us and our way of life. The war in Iraq has only worsened our cause. The real problem resides in Saudi Arabia. But our presidents bow down to them. We can't change their society nor should we. We have no right. But we do need to respond to the growing antiwestern philosophy of the extremists. If we don't, more buildings will crumble and many more lives will be lost.

have you ever wondered why there is an "anti-western" sentiment in the first place?

Yes. Have you? Soviet Union, Chinese, Islamic, German...? Maybe with should hate israel, that should help the cause. There has been anti-western sentiment for a long time from many areas of the world. Where women can never have an education or vote and have their clitoris removed. Where Jews and those with poor genes were in an experiement to be removed from the gene pool. Where millions of innocent people were being murdered by their own leader. Where old women are being stoned for showing too much leg. Where the highest capital punishment rate is, so that the organs of the killed can be sold for profit. I guess you want to ignore these things and talk with these people. It has never worked and it never will.

Once again man, you're rounding up every tired stereotype you can, whether or not they apply (female genital mutilation is an African thing) and slapping them onto every Islamic country in the world as if every Islamic society does all of those things at the same time as a matter of course, when they're not sitting around hating the US. It's an absurdly distorted and shallow view of the Islamic world and not remotely accurate. Just a lazy rationalization for your prejudice.

hollow bottle

You don't have to educate me on where female circumcision occurs. It happens on all of the continents, not just Africa. And I was referring to extremists, not populations. Oh, and by the way, fuck you for calling me racist. Don't throw that word around, "idiot."