Let's talk war!!

tybird

Cosmo wrote:

tybird wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

I admit, i don't know all that much about the Afghani people and their mindset. I do not understand the effects of their culture and religion enough to make the assumption that their values are the same as ours.

From what history has shown, one of the values that culture shares with theirs is.....they don't like outsiders telling them what to do anymore than we do. :twisted:

...
The Golden Rule, right? Do unto others... and all that jazz.
I try to place myself in their shoes...
If... in a parallel Universe... a Muslim military power decided that The United States needed to be saved from our decadent lifestyle and culture... and become an Islamic Theocracy to save our souls. Invaded and occupied our country... not knowing our culture, language, customs and religion. Installed a Theocratic government of their design. I would be out there trying to eject them from my homeland. I'd be blowing up their convoys and sending their soldiers back home in coffins. I would also go after treasonous Americans who collaborated with these foriegners. And i would be willing to die for this. They would call me a 'Terrorist' because I wasn't donning a uniform... but, Americans would call me a 'Patriot'.
We should be the ones to decide whether or not to convert to Islam, not them.

Patriot=partisan=guerrilla=terrorist=rebel....it's really all a matter of perspective...and which side your on...BTW, change Muslim to communist, and you would have the makings of a good movie...but it needs a catchy name like Red Sunset or Red Sunrise. :twisted:

tybird

mb262200 wrote:

I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?

Cosmo, like many others and myself, believe that there has been some "mission drift" since 2001 in regards to the War on Terror. There is some doubt that the response to the attack on U.S. soil and citizens is being carried correctly. Some even believe that it has morphed into something distinct from the original mission.

OffHeGoes29

Cosmo wrote:

tybird wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

I admit, i don't know all that much about the Afghani people and their mindset. I do not understand the effects of their culture and religion enough to make the assumption that their values are the same as ours.

From what history has shown, one of the values that culture shares with theirs is.....they don't like outsiders telling them what to do anymore than we do. :twisted:

...
The Golden Rule, right? Do unto others... and all that jazz.
I try to place myself in their shoes...
If... in a parallel Universe... a Muslim military power decided that The United States needed to be saved from our decadent lifestyle and culture... and become an Islamic Theocracy to save our souls. Invaded and occupied our country... not knowing our culture, language, customs and religion. Installed a Theocratic government of their design. I would be out there trying to eject them from my homeland. I'd be blowing up their convoys and sending their soldiers back home in coffins. I would also go after treasonous Americans who collaborated with these foriegners. And i would be willing to die for this. They would call me a 'Terrorist' because I wasn't donning a uniform... but, Americans would call me a 'Patriot'.
We should be the ones to decide whether or not to convert to Islam, not them.

Come on, you know better then that. They have made no secret about a new islamic order, thats their agenda, I think they even have web pages and articles all over the internet saying so. If they had a large, advanced military, they sure as hell would be in our back yard.

No one is trying to force them to change cultures or religion, you know better then that to assume we are, you're smarter then that.

OffHeGoes29

tybird wrote:

mb262200 wrote:

I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?

Cosmo, like many others and myself, believe that there has been some "mission drift" since 2001 in regards to the War on Terror. There is some doubt that the response to the attack on U.S. soil and citizens is being carried correctly. Some even believe that it has morphed into something distinct from the original mission.

Maybe so, but the kind of reaction you guys are talking about can also be classified as "mission drift".

The past is over, lets learn from it and move on.

Cosmo

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

I would hope that the people who are over there making a difference and our policy makers knows that we can't and shouldn't force the afghan people into become like the west. Their culture and religion should be respected. We aren't at war with the afghan people, we are fighting a small minority of radical people who want to control the region, and if left unchecked, poses a threat to the world.

Iraq is advanced compared to Afghanistan, and so it should be expected that it will take a long time to get them independent enough to govern themselves, something that is a new concept in a country that has been lawless for ever. I was reading an article today in the paper about how the biggest problem with security there is the corruption and desertion with in the Afghan army and police force. Most of their personnel don't get paid nearly enough, and in some cases, the taliban pays more. It took years after Germany was occupied for it to become relatively stable, die hard members of the Reich were still killing elected officials and soldiers for a couple years after the war, and that was an advance and developed nation. Afghanistan is on the other end of the spectrum in terms of development, I know its apples and oranges, but it took Germany a couple years to become stable, its going to take a lot more then that before Afghanistan to become self sustaining.

I don't think we are disagreeing on anything, the facts are there. However I just can't see how pulling out tomorrow will solve the issue. All it will do is send the people of Afghanistan back to a worse fate then what they already have. Untold amount of civilians have died since we occupied the country 8 years ago, how many do you think would die for supporting the west if we leave and the Taliban move in? South Vietnam saw a large untold amount of people who where killed, jailed, or tortured after we pulled out in the 70's. Wasn't there a large exodus of people from South Vietnam in the wake of us leaving? The Afghan people won't have that luxury to leave if we do.

The World and expecially the Afghan people don't have a choice here, seeing this through is our only reponsible option, the past is said and done.

...
The problem is... the people over there are our military leaders. Afghanistan and Iraq are now political problems, not military problems. No one can solve political issues with military solutions.
As for our military presence in post War Germany... the world court tried and executed the Nazi leadership for their participation in crimes against humanity. And the German people were like minded in their religion and Western Culture.
In Viet Nam... they tried and improsoned or executed Vietnamese collaborators who were considerd traitors... just as we would probably try and execute traitors over here, if the shoe was on the other foot. Yes, people fled... mostly for financial or religious (Christians) reasons along with those people who helpd Americans occupy their country. The North Vietnamese did not slaughter the South Vietnamese foot soldiers. They killed their commanders and leaders. There was not a civil war that ensued.
Iraq is different. Saddam Hussein ruled with a brutal iron fist to keep the Kurds and Shi'ites under his (Sunni) control. The hatred was there, simmering. The hatred is STILL there. Nothing we can do to prevent that. Maybe, a Civil War is just part of Iraq's future... it's just that Saddam Hussein (and now, us) kept the thing in check. These hostilities are about 1500 years old. They wil not go away just because we want them to. Those deep seated, religious based differences cannot be killed... they have to die... over a long, long period of time.

Cosmo

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Maybe so, but the kind of reaction you guys are talking about can also be classified as "mission drift".

The past is over, lets learn from it and move on.

...
That is another failure... failure to assume responsibility for our past actions. Trying to deny the actions of the past is shrugging responsibility. If that is so, shouldn't we 'just get over' the attacks of September 11, 2001? The answer is, NO.
The actions of the past create the conditions of the present.

Cosmo

mb262200 wrote:

I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?

...
You just don't get it. I'm not surprized.

OnTheEdge

Cosmo wrote:

mb262200 wrote:

I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?

...
You just don't get it. I'm not surprized.

No Ass. I get IT, I don't get YOU!!

Cosmo

mb262200 wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

mb262200 wrote:

I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?

...
You just don't get it. I'm not surprized.

No Ass. I get IT, I don't get YOU!!

...
There's your true self, shining through...
Proof of who you are and where you are coming from. A small person.

tybird

Cosmo wrote:

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

I would hope that the people who are over there making a difference and our policy makers knows that we can't and shouldn't force the afghan people into become like the west. Their culture and religion should be respected. We aren't at war with the afghan people, we are fighting a small minority of radical people who want to control the region, and if left unchecked, poses a threat to the world.

Iraq is advanced compared to Afghanistan, and so it should be expected that it will take a long time to get them independent enough to govern themselves, something that is a new concept in a country that has been lawless for ever. I was reading an article today in the paper about how the biggest problem with security there is the corruption and desertion with in the Afghan army and police force. Most of their personnel don't get paid nearly enough, and in some cases, the taliban pays more. It took years after Germany was occupied for it to become relatively stable, die hard members of the Reich were still killing elected officials and soldiers for a couple years after the war, and that was an advance and developed nation. Afghanistan is on the other end of the spectrum in terms of development, I know its apples and oranges, but it took Germany a couple years to become stable, its going to take a lot more then that before Afghanistan to become self sustaining.

I don't think we are disagreeing on anything, the facts are there. However I just can't see how pulling out tomorrow will solve the issue. All it will do is send the people of Afghanistan back to a worse fate then what they already have. Untold amount of civilians have died since we occupied the country 8 years ago, how many do you think would die for supporting the west if we leave and the Taliban move in? South Vietnam saw a large untold amount of people who where killed, jailed, or tortured after we pulled out in the 70's. Wasn't there a large exodus of people from South Vietnam in the wake of us leaving? The Afghan people won't have that luxury to leave if we do.

The World and expecially the Afghan people don't have a choice here, seeing this through is our only reponsible option, the past is said and done.

...
The problem is... the people over there are our military leaders. Afghanistan and Iraq are now political problems, not military problems. No one can solve political issues with military solutions.
As for our military presence in post War Germany... the world court tried and executed the Nazi leadership for their participation in crimes against humanity. And the German people were like minded in their religion and Western Culture.
In Viet Nam... they tried and improsoned or executed Vietnamese collaborators who were considerd traitors... just as we would probably try and execute traitors over here, if the shoe was on the other foot. Yes, people fled... mostly for financial or religious (Christians) reasons along with those people who helpd Americans occupy their country. The North Vietnamese did not slaughter the South Vietnamese foot soldiers. They killed their commanders and leaders. There was not a civil war that ensued.
Iraq is different. Saddam Hussein ruled with a brutal iron fist to keep the Kurds and Shi'ites under his (Sunni) control. The hatred was there, simmering. The hatred is STILL there. Nothing we can do to prevent that. Maybe, a Civil War is just part of Iraq's future... it's just that Saddam Hussein (and now, us) kept the thing in check. These hostilities are about 1500 years old. They wil not go away just because we want them to. Those deep seated, religious based differences cannot be killed... they have to die... over a long, long period of time.

Another thing to consider is that Iraq was created by colonial powers....place it in a political vacuum....and whooooosh...it spins off into three or four little nations or emirates or a couple of "stans" . There is no overriding reason for these people all to under a single nation-state umbrella, in their eyes.

Cosmo

tybird wrote:

Another thing to consider is that Iraq was created by colonial powers....place it in a political vacuum....and whooooosh...it spins off into three or four little nations or emirates or a couple of "stans" . There is no overriding reason for these people all to under a single nation-state umbrella, in their eyes.

...
I say, throw all those motherfuckers in a prison exercise yard... erase all of the goddamn borders in the Middle East... and don't let them out until they draw up the fucking boders, themselves. And NO... Saudi Arabia and Iran... you cannot omit Israel. And NO... Israel, you cannot omit the Palestinians.
That way, those fuckers have no one else to blame except themselves for the map.

OnTheEdge

I don't get it huh. I get that there are people called the Taliban that train people to kill themselves and to kill civillians. And the more they kill the more they are rewarded. I get that they train kids and women to kill. I get that they learn to fly so they can fly into buildings, I get that they'll blow up train stations and embasys'. What I don't get is you making it sound like they shouldn't be called terrorists. Like if they were here we would be called the terrorists.......Who doesn't get it?

soulsinging

Cosmo wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

They don't have a choice. There is profit to be made, and if they won't join the global capitalist economy, we will make them. I know tradition and values and history are good and all, but nothing should ever get in the way of good business.

...
This is how and where we fail. We make the assumption that they want to participate in the current global economy. What do we really know what they really want?

I don't believe we really make that assumption. I think we simply don't give a fuck what they want. We know what we want, and what we think is best for them, and that's all that matters.

soulsinging

mb262200 wrote:

I don't get it huh. I get that there are people called the Taliban that train people to kill themselves and to kill civillians. And the more they kill the more they are rewarded. I get that they train kids and women to kill. I get that they learn to fly so they can fly into buildings, I get that they'll blow up train stations and embasys'. What I don't get is you making it sound like they shouldn't be called terrorists. Like if they were here we would be called the terrorists.......Who doesn't get it?

No, you clearly don't get it. Because none of the things you just said are actually true.

OnTheEdge

soulsinging wrote:

mb262200 wrote:

I don't get it huh. I get that there are people called the Taliban that train people to kill themselves and to kill civillians. And the more they kill the more they are rewarded. I get that they train kids and women to kill. I get that they learn to fly so they can fly into buildings, I get that they'll blow up train stations and embasys'. What I don't get is you making it sound like they shouldn't be called terrorists. Like if they were here we would be called the terrorists.......Who doesn't get it?

No, you clearly don't get it. Because none of the things you just said are actually true.

:shock:

soulsinging

mb262200 wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

mb262200 wrote:

I don't get it huh. I get that there are people called the Taliban that train people to kill themselves and to kill civillians. And the more they kill the more they are rewarded. I get that they train kids and women to kill. I get that they learn to fly so they can fly into buildings, I get that they'll blow up train stations and embasys'. What I don't get is you making it sound like they shouldn't be called terrorists. Like if they were here we would be called the terrorists.......Who doesn't get it?

No, you clearly don't get it. Because none of the things you just said are actually true.

:shock:

The Taliban is not solely responsible for all that stuff. I don't think you really have any idea who or what the Taliban is.

OnTheEdge

soulsinging wrote:

mb262200 wrote:

I don't get it huh. I get that there are people called the Taliban that train people to kill themselves and to kill civillians. And the more they kill the more they are rewarded. I get that they train kids and women to kill. I get that they learn to fly so they can fly into buildings, I get that they'll blow up train stations and embasys'. What I don't get is you making it sound like they shouldn't be called terrorists. Like if they were here we would be called the terrorists.......Who doesn't get it?

No, you clearly don't get it. Because none of the things you just said are actually true.

Why don't you all explain this to me then. I would love to hear how the Taliban, Al Qaida, and Osama Bin Ladin are not actual terorists.

soulsinging

mb262200 wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

mb262200 wrote:

I don't get it huh. I get that there are people called the Taliban that train people to kill themselves and to kill civillians. And the more they kill the more they are rewarded. I get that they train kids and women to kill. I get that they learn to fly so they can fly into buildings, I get that they'll blow up train stations and embasys'. What I don't get is you making it sound like they shouldn't be called terrorists. Like if they were here we would be called the terrorists.......Who doesn't get it?

No, you clearly don't get it. Because none of the things you just said are actually true.

Why don't you all explain this to me then. I would love to hear how the Taliban, Al Qaida, and Osama Bin Ladin are not actual terorists.

The latter two are. The first is a fascist theocracy. And you cannot use them interchangeably. OBL plotted 9/11. Not the Taliban. The Taliban doesn't train women and kids to blow themselves up, that's more a Palestinian thing. The Taliban is busy making sure women don't do a godamn thing other than serve their husbands like slaves. The embassies and train stations... pretty sure that's Saudi Arabia.

But I totally understand that it's a lot easier and less demanding to just lump all brown Muslim people into one big "terrorist" bag and treat them all the same.

Which is why our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been such clusterfucks from day one... you/the USG doesn't know or care about the Islamic world. What you just said is like an Afghani saying every American is an abortion clinic-bombing Dubya worshipping Christian fundamentalist. When the fact is there are dozens of Christian sects here, 50 state, hundreds of political persuasions, etc. Not that you care. Like I said, easier to just assume they're all the same terrorist.

OnTheEdge

I'm open to this. I'm going to start research on the Taliban. I should have used Al Qaida instead. You're not going to defend them........are you?

soulsinging

mb262200 wrote:

I'm open to this. I'm going to start research on the Taliban. I should have used Al Qaida instead. You're not going to defend them........are you?

No. I won't defend the Taliban either... they're a sick bunch of fucks. And while they don't train terrorists themselves (too busy trying to keep the country locked down), they do allow terrorist groups like Al-Quaeda to train there. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan, but we bungled the job by dropping it for Iraq and now we've made a mess of it.

However, the Taliban and Al-quada are very different groups, with different agendas and tactics. And these are important things to know when you're trying to combat something as amorphous as terrorism. You cannot treat all these groups and countries the same... this "one solution fits all" approach to the Islamic world has been a disaster for the US and its credibility. Now, we are stretched too thin too deal with a REAL threat like Iran or North Korea, because we thought Iraq would be a breeze because of our complete ignorance of and indifference to the realities on the ground in the Muslim world.