Their history is that other cultures have come in to claim them and failed.
The only similarity is our failure to recognize that their culture, religion, language and customs are completely different than our.
If a people do not want to change their culture.....no military campaign or any ad campaign will make they change. We should really be asking the question if the Afghani people really want to be part of the modern global system...or do they prefer living their lives the way that their people have lived for thousands of years?
They don't have a choice. There is profit to be made, and if they won't join the global capitalist economy, we will make them. I know tradition and values and history are good and all, but nothing should ever get in the way of good business.
Their history is that other cultures have come in to claim them and failed.
The only similarity is our failure to recognize that their culture, religion, language and customs are completely different than our.
If a people do not want to change their culture.....no military campaign or any ad campaign will make they change. We should really be asking the question if the Afghani people really want to be part of the modern global system...or do they prefer living their lives the way that their people have lived for thousands of years?
They don't have a choice. There is profit to be made, and if they won't join the global capitalist economy, we will make them. I know tradition and values and history are good and all, but nothing should ever get in the way of good business.
Therein lies the problem, culture is not always equal to cash....but I suspect that you have figured that one out, eh.
Funny....you mentioned the capitalist system....if I remember correctly they weren't too interested in joining up with the worker's paradise system either.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
They don't have a choice. There is profit to be made, and if they won't join the global capitalist economy, we will make them. I know tradition and values and history are good and all, but nothing should ever get in the way of good business.
Therein lies the problem, culture is not always equal to cash....but I suspect that you have figured that one out, eh.
Funny....you mentioned the capitalist system....if I remember correctly they weren't too interested in joining up with the worker's paradise system either.
Probably because they realize that in either one, you still have to go to a shitty job to work for peanuts
WE may know that culture is not equal to cash... but try telling that to the westerners that spent decades trying to destroy and exploit latin america and africa and asia in the name of progress.
Probably because they realize that in either one, you still have to go to a shitty job to work for peanuts
WE may know that culture is not equal to cash... but try telling that to the westerners that spent decades trying to destroy and exploit latin america and africa and asia in the name of progress.
Why work a shitty factory job for either the fat capitalist or party leader when you can achieve your dreams harvesting opium. :twisted:
Maybe we need to remove "Money talks, bullshit walks" from the language???
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
They don't have a choice. There is profit to be made, and if they won't join the global capitalist economy, we will make them. I know tradition and values and history are good and all, but nothing should ever get in the way of good business.
...
This is how and where we fail. We make the assumption that they want to participate in the current global economy. What do we really know what they really want?
For all we know, what they want is to carve out a peaceful life, tending herds of goats on the same land as their ancestors, 2000 years ago... living by the same religious constraints of 2000 years ago. unlike us, they may value their religious values greater than their want for consumerism.
As Tybird has stated, the change has to come from THEM... internally. Any external influence may be seen as the destruction of their culture.
...
I admit, i don't know all that much about the Afghani people and their mindset. I do not understand the effects of their culture and religion enough to make the assumption that their values are the same as ours. I can only hope that our former President Bush possesses a greater insight to what the Afghanis really want than I do. But, from what has come to pass... I am falling more and more towards the side that he doesn't. Our leaders are out of touch of OUR wants and needs... how do they know what the wants and needs of a people on the other side of the planet... living is a culture that may as well be from another planet?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I admit, i don't know all that much about the Afghani people and their mindset. I do not understand the effects of their culture and religion enough to make the assumption that their values are the same as ours.
From what history has shown, one of the values that culture shares with theirs is.....they don't like outsiders telling them what to do anymore than we do. :twisted:
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Absolutly, but the only thing I don't see eye to eye with you is their future. It will be a long process, but I can't think of any post conflict thats was cut and dry and pulled out with out any problems. We've stayed in every country we "occupied" for some time after the fact, the only thing that will fix the situation is time and MONEY. I hate to say it, but its what brings stability in the long run.
There is a very big difference between us and prior empires that have control A-stan, we make the effort to work with the country and get it back on its feet and become independant. We lost Vietnam not on anything tactical, but the inability to work and support the South Vietnamese people and the lack of support at home.
Most of you wont believe this because all you read and see (and want to believe) is that its completely a hopeless situation, and there isn't any hope.
Its eight years later, I'm sure as hell tired of talking about it, thinking about it, and sending friends and family over there. I want a peaceful future, I want to for this to be over with yesterday, but I know that its in the world's best interest that we see this through. If not, it will be worse then what we have now, its not speculation. There is no way to go back in time now and change anything, we have a responsibility to see it through. If you think we fucked them over by occupying the region, we will really fuck them over twice by leaving now.
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No matter how long we stay... even if we can change their government... change their leadership... we can never change their culture or religion. The same way an Islamic military force occupying the United States could never be able to change our culture or religion (i.e. Religious Freedom). There is a reason why it remains a capital offense in Afghanistan to convert out of Islam. Because that's what they want.
If we think democracy is the way... who do you thing they will vote for? If they hate us... as former President Bush stated... because of our way of life, wouldn't they vote for someone who is like minded? We see that when Democracy in Lebannon when they bring Hezbollah into their government... Hamas into Gaza. Give the people who hate Israel the power to elect someone... it is most likely that they will elect someone who hates Israel.
Our fundamrnetal mistake is the belief that if they were more like us... they would no longer hate us. We fail to even try to understand their point of view. We use historical events from our perspective and try to apply it to their lives. Historical events may remain the same, the viewpoint differs depending upon where you stand. Viet Nam, for example... their text books describe our involvement from a completely different perspective thna ours. To them, we came from across the seas with the intent on keeping them divided, when they wanted unification.
From an Afghani perspective... we are just another in a long procession of the world's superpower of the times that has come from the other side of the planet to try to conquer them. Changing that perspective may be possible, but it will take several generations to fulfill... maybe a couple of hundred years. Their history is that other cultures have come in to claim them and failed.
...
Back to Viet Nam... how is that place today? The violence they saw after we left was now within them, it was mopping up the chaos and mess we left behind in Laos and Cambodia. Their united Viet Nam forces straightened out Cambodia.
I'm not saying Viet Nam is the same as Afghanistan... there are completely different rules that apply because the people of Viet Nam and Afghanistan are completely different. The only similarity is our failure to recognize that their culture, religion, language and customs are completely different than our.
I would hope that the people who are over there making a difference and our policy makers knows that we can't and shouldn't force the afghan people into become like the west. Their culture and religion should be respected. We aren't at war with the afghan people, we are fighting a small minority of radical people who want to control the region, and if left unchecked, poses a threat to the world.
Iraq is advanced compared to Afghanistan, and so it should be expected that it will take a long time to get them independent enough to govern themselves, something that is a new concept in a country that has been lawless for ever. I was reading an article today in the paper about how the biggest problem with security there is the corruption and desertion with in the Afghan army and police force. Most of their personnel don't get paid nearly enough, and in some cases, the taliban pays more. It took years after Germany was occupied for it to become relatively stable, die hard members of the Reich were still killing elected officials and soldiers for a couple years after the war, and that was an advance and developed nation. Afghanistan is on the other end of the spectrum in terms of development, I know its apples and oranges, but it took Germany a couple years to become stable, its going to take a lot more then that before Afghanistan to become self sustaining.
I don't think we are disagreeing on anything, the facts are there. However I just can't see how pulling out tomorrow will solve the issue. All it will do is send the people of Afghanistan back to a worse fate then what they already have. Untold amount of civilians have died since we occupied the country 8 years ago, how many do you think would die for supporting the west if we leave and the Taliban move in? South Vietnam saw a large untold amount of people who where killed, jailed, or tortured after we pulled out in the 70's. Wasn't there a large exodus of people from South Vietnam in the wake of us leaving? The Afghan people won't have that luxury to leave if we do.
The World and expecially the Afghan people don't have a choice here, seeing this through is our only reponsible option, the past is said and done.
I admit, i don't know all that much about the Afghani people and their mindset. I do not understand the effects of their culture and religion enough to make the assumption that their values are the same as ours.
From what history has shown, one of the values that culture shares with theirs is.....they don't like outsiders telling them what to do anymore than we do. :twisted:
...
The Golden Rule, right? Do unto others... and all that jazz.
I try to place myself in their shoes...
If... in a parallel Universe... a Muslim military power decided that The United States needed to be saved from our decadent lifestyle and culture... and become an Islamic Theocracy to save our souls. Invaded and occupied our country... not knowing our culture, language, customs and religion. Installed a Theocratic government of their design. I would be out there trying to eject them from my homeland. I'd be blowing up their convoys and sending their soldiers back home in coffins. I would also go after treasonous Americans who collaborated with these foriegners. And i would be willing to die for this. They would call me a 'Terrorist' because I wasn't donning a uniform... but, Americans would call me a 'Patriot'.
We should be the ones to decide whether or not to convert to Islam, not them.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I admit, i don't know all that much about the Afghani people and their mindset. I do not understand the effects of their culture and religion enough to make the assumption that their values are the same as ours.
From what history has shown, one of the values that culture shares with theirs is.....they don't like outsiders telling them what to do anymore than we do. :twisted:
...
The Golden Rule, right? Do unto others... and all that jazz.
I try to place myself in their shoes...
If... in a parallel Universe... a Muslim military power decided that The United States needed to be saved from our decadent lifestyle and culture... and become an Islamic Theocracy to save our souls. Invaded and occupied our country... not knowing our culture, language, customs and religion. Installed a Theocratic government of their design. I would be out there trying to eject them from my homeland. I'd be blowing up their convoys and sending their soldiers back home in coffins. I would also go after treasonous Americans who collaborated with these foriegners. And i would be willing to die for this. They would call me a 'Terrorist' because I wasn't donning a uniform... but, Americans would call me a 'Patriot'.
We should be the ones to decide whether or not to convert to Islam, not them.
I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?
I admit, i don't know all that much about the Afghani people and their mindset. I do not understand the effects of their culture and religion enough to make the assumption that their values are the same as ours.
From what history has shown, one of the values that culture shares with theirs is.....they don't like outsiders telling them what to do anymore than we do. :twisted:
...
The Golden Rule, right? Do unto others... and all that jazz.
I try to place myself in their shoes...
If... in a parallel Universe... a Muslim military power decided that The United States needed to be saved from our decadent lifestyle and culture... and become an Islamic Theocracy to save our souls. Invaded and occupied our country... not knowing our culture, language, customs and religion. Installed a Theocratic government of their design. I would be out there trying to eject them from my homeland. I'd be blowing up their convoys and sending their soldiers back home in coffins. I would also go after treasonous Americans who collaborated with these foriegners. And i would be willing to die for this. They would call me a 'Terrorist' because I wasn't donning a uniform... but, Americans would call me a 'Patriot'.
We should be the ones to decide whether or not to convert to Islam, not them.
Patriot=partisan=guerrilla=terrorist=rebel....it's really all a matter of perspective...and which side your on...BTW, change Muslim to communist, and you would have the makings of a good movie...but it needs a catchy name like Red Sunset or Red Sunrise. :twisted:
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?
Cosmo, like many others and myself, believe that there has been some "mission drift" since 2001 in regards to the War on Terror. There is some doubt that the response to the attack on U.S. soil and citizens is being carried correctly. Some even believe that it has morphed into something distinct from the original mission.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
I admit, i don't know all that much about the Afghani people and their mindset. I do not understand the effects of their culture and religion enough to make the assumption that their values are the same as ours.
From what history has shown, one of the values that culture shares with theirs is.....they don't like outsiders telling them what to do anymore than we do. :twisted:
...
The Golden Rule, right? Do unto others... and all that jazz.
I try to place myself in their shoes...
If... in a parallel Universe... a Muslim military power decided that The United States needed to be saved from our decadent lifestyle and culture... and become an Islamic Theocracy to save our souls. Invaded and occupied our country... not knowing our culture, language, customs and religion. Installed a Theocratic government of their design. I would be out there trying to eject them from my homeland. I'd be blowing up their convoys and sending their soldiers back home in coffins. I would also go after treasonous Americans who collaborated with these foriegners. And i would be willing to die for this. They would call me a 'Terrorist' because I wasn't donning a uniform... but, Americans would call me a 'Patriot'.
We should be the ones to decide whether or not to convert to Islam, not them.
Come on, you know better then that. They have made no secret about a new islamic order, thats their agenda, I think they even have web pages and articles all over the internet saying so. If they had a large, advanced military, they sure as hell would be in our back yard.
No one is trying to force them to change cultures or religion, you know better then that to assume we are, you're smarter then that.
I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?
Cosmo, like many others and myself, believe that there has been some "mission drift" since 2001 in regards to the War on Terror. There is some doubt that the response to the attack on U.S. soil and citizens is being carried correctly. Some even believe that it has morphed into something distinct from the original mission.
Maybe so, but the kind of reaction you guys are talking about can also be classified as "mission drift".
I would hope that the people who are over there making a difference and our policy makers knows that we can't and shouldn't force the afghan people into become like the west. Their culture and religion should be respected. We aren't at war with the afghan people, we are fighting a small minority of radical people who want to control the region, and if left unchecked, poses a threat to the world.
Iraq is advanced compared to Afghanistan, and so it should be expected that it will take a long time to get them independent enough to govern themselves, something that is a new concept in a country that has been lawless for ever. I was reading an article today in the paper about how the biggest problem with security there is the corruption and desertion with in the Afghan army and police force. Most of their personnel don't get paid nearly enough, and in some cases, the taliban pays more. It took years after Germany was occupied for it to become relatively stable, die hard members of the Reich were still killing elected officials and soldiers for a couple years after the war, and that was an advance and developed nation. Afghanistan is on the other end of the spectrum in terms of development, I know its apples and oranges, but it took Germany a couple years to become stable, its going to take a lot more then that before Afghanistan to become self sustaining.
I don't think we are disagreeing on anything, the facts are there. However I just can't see how pulling out tomorrow will solve the issue. All it will do is send the people of Afghanistan back to a worse fate then what they already have. Untold amount of civilians have died since we occupied the country 8 years ago, how many do you think would die for supporting the west if we leave and the Taliban move in? South Vietnam saw a large untold amount of people who where killed, jailed, or tortured after we pulled out in the 70's. Wasn't there a large exodus of people from South Vietnam in the wake of us leaving? The Afghan people won't have that luxury to leave if we do.
The World and expecially the Afghan people don't have a choice here, seeing this through is our only reponsible option, the past is said and done.
...
The problem is... the people over there are our military leaders. Afghanistan and Iraq are now political problems, not military problems. No one can solve political issues with military solutions.
As for our military presence in post War Germany... the world court tried and executed the Nazi leadership for their participation in crimes against humanity. And the German people were like minded in their religion and Western Culture.
In Viet Nam... they tried and improsoned or executed Vietnamese collaborators who were considerd traitors... just as we would probably try and execute traitors over here, if the shoe was on the other foot. Yes, people fled... mostly for financial or religious (Christians) reasons along with those people who helpd Americans occupy their country. The North Vietnamese did not slaughter the South Vietnamese foot soldiers. They killed their commanders and leaders. There was not a civil war that ensued.
Iraq is different. Saddam Hussein ruled with a brutal iron fist to keep the Kurds and Shi'ites under his (Sunni) control. The hatred was there, simmering. The hatred is STILL there. Nothing we can do to prevent that. Maybe, a Civil War is just part of Iraq's future... it's just that Saddam Hussein (and now, us) kept the thing in check. These hostilities are about 1500 years old. They wil not go away just because we want them to. Those deep seated, religious based differences cannot be killed... they have to die... over a long, long period of time.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Maybe so, but the kind of reaction you guys are talking about can also be classified as "mission drift".
The past is over, lets learn from it and move on.
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That is another failure... failure to assume responsibility for our past actions. Trying to deny the actions of the past is shrugging responsibility. If that is so, shouldn't we 'just get over' the attacks of September 11, 2001? The answer is, NO.
The actions of the past create the conditions of the present.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?
...
You just don't get it. I'm not surprized.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?
I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?
...
You just don't get it. I'm not surprized.
No Ass. I get IT, I don't get YOU!!
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There's your true self, shining through...
Proof of who you are and where you are coming from. A small person.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I would hope that the people who are over there making a difference and our policy makers knows that we can't and shouldn't force the afghan people into become like the west. Their culture and religion should be respected. We aren't at war with the afghan people, we are fighting a small minority of radical people who want to control the region, and if left unchecked, poses a threat to the world.
Iraq is advanced compared to Afghanistan, and so it should be expected that it will take a long time to get them independent enough to govern themselves, something that is a new concept in a country that has been lawless for ever. I was reading an article today in the paper about how the biggest problem with security there is the corruption and desertion with in the Afghan army and police force. Most of their personnel don't get paid nearly enough, and in some cases, the taliban pays more. It took years after Germany was occupied for it to become relatively stable, die hard members of the Reich were still killing elected officials and soldiers for a couple years after the war, and that was an advance and developed nation. Afghanistan is on the other end of the spectrum in terms of development, I know its apples and oranges, but it took Germany a couple years to become stable, its going to take a lot more then that before Afghanistan to become self sustaining.
I don't think we are disagreeing on anything, the facts are there. However I just can't see how pulling out tomorrow will solve the issue. All it will do is send the people of Afghanistan back to a worse fate then what they already have. Untold amount of civilians have died since we occupied the country 8 years ago, how many do you think would die for supporting the west if we leave and the Taliban move in? South Vietnam saw a large untold amount of people who where killed, jailed, or tortured after we pulled out in the 70's. Wasn't there a large exodus of people from South Vietnam in the wake of us leaving? The Afghan people won't have that luxury to leave if we do.
The World and expecially the Afghan people don't have a choice here, seeing this through is our only reponsible option, the past is said and done.
...
The problem is... the people over there are our military leaders. Afghanistan and Iraq are now political problems, not military problems. No one can solve political issues with military solutions.
As for our military presence in post War Germany... the world court tried and executed the Nazi leadership for their participation in crimes against humanity. And the German people were like minded in their religion and Western Culture.
In Viet Nam... they tried and improsoned or executed Vietnamese collaborators who were considerd traitors... just as we would probably try and execute traitors over here, if the shoe was on the other foot. Yes, people fled... mostly for financial or religious (Christians) reasons along with those people who helpd Americans occupy their country. The North Vietnamese did not slaughter the South Vietnamese foot soldiers. They killed their commanders and leaders. There was not a civil war that ensued.
Iraq is different. Saddam Hussein ruled with a brutal iron fist to keep the Kurds and Shi'ites under his (Sunni) control. The hatred was there, simmering. The hatred is STILL there. Nothing we can do to prevent that. Maybe, a Civil War is just part of Iraq's future... it's just that Saddam Hussein (and now, us) kept the thing in check. These hostilities are about 1500 years old. They wil not go away just because we want them to. Those deep seated, religious based differences cannot be killed... they have to die... over a long, long period of time.
Another thing to consider is that Iraq was created by colonial powers....place it in a political vacuum....and whooooosh...it spins off into three or four little nations or emirates or a couple of "stans" . There is no overriding reason for these people all to under a single nation-state umbrella, in their eyes.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Another thing to consider is that Iraq was created by colonial powers....place it in a political vacuum....and whooooosh...it spins off into three or four little nations or emirates or a couple of "stans" . There is no overriding reason for these people all to under a single nation-state umbrella, in their eyes.
...
I say, throw all those motherfuckers in a prison exercise yard... erase all of the goddamn borders in the Middle East... and don't let them out until they draw up the fucking boders, themselves. And NO... Saudi Arabia and Iran... you cannot omit Israel. And NO... Israel, you cannot omit the Palestinians.
That way, those fuckers have no one else to blame except themselves for the map.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't get it huh. I get that there are people called the Taliban that train people to kill themselves and to kill civillians. And the more they kill the more they are rewarded. I get that they train kids and women to kill. I get that they learn to fly so they can fly into buildings, I get that they'll blow up train stations and embasys'. What I don't get is you making it sound like they shouldn't be called terrorists. Like if they were here we would be called the terrorists.......Who doesn't get it?
They don't have a choice. There is profit to be made, and if they won't join the global capitalist economy, we will make them. I know tradition and values and history are good and all, but nothing should ever get in the way of good business.
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This is how and where we fail. We make the assumption that they want to participate in the current global economy. What do we really know what they really want?
I don't believe we really make that assumption. I think we simply don't give a fuck what they want. We know what we want, and what we think is best for them, and that's all that matters.
I don't get it huh. I get that there are people called the Taliban that train people to kill themselves and to kill civillians. And the more they kill the more they are rewarded. I get that they train kids and women to kill. I get that they learn to fly so they can fly into buildings, I get that they'll blow up train stations and embasys'. What I don't get is you making it sound like they shouldn't be called terrorists. Like if they were here we would be called the terrorists.......Who doesn't get it?
No, you clearly don't get it. Because none of the things you just said are actually true.
I don't get it huh. I get that there are people called the Taliban that train people to kill themselves and to kill civillians. And the more they kill the more they are rewarded. I get that they train kids and women to kill. I get that they learn to fly so they can fly into buildings, I get that they'll blow up train stations and embasys'. What I don't get is you making it sound like they shouldn't be called terrorists. Like if they were here we would be called the terrorists.......Who doesn't get it?
No, you clearly don't get it. Because none of the things you just said are actually true.
I don't get it huh. I get that there are people called the Taliban that train people to kill themselves and to kill civillians. And the more they kill the more they are rewarded. I get that they train kids and women to kill. I get that they learn to fly so they can fly into buildings, I get that they'll blow up train stations and embasys'. What I don't get is you making it sound like they shouldn't be called terrorists. Like if they were here we would be called the terrorists.......Who doesn't get it?
No, you clearly don't get it. Because none of the things you just said are actually true.
:shock:
The Taliban is not solely responsible for all that stuff. I don't think you really have any idea who or what the Taliban is.
I don't get it huh. I get that there are people called the Taliban that train people to kill themselves and to kill civillians. And the more they kill the more they are rewarded. I get that they train kids and women to kill. I get that they learn to fly so they can fly into buildings, I get that they'll blow up train stations and embasys'. What I don't get is you making it sound like they shouldn't be called terrorists. Like if they were here we would be called the terrorists.......Who doesn't get it?
No, you clearly don't get it. Because none of the things you just said are actually true.
Why don't you all explain this to me then. I would love to hear how the Taliban, Al Qaida, and Osama Bin Ladin are not actual terorists.
I don't get it huh. I get that there are people called the Taliban that train people to kill themselves and to kill civillians. And the more they kill the more they are rewarded. I get that they train kids and women to kill. I get that they learn to fly so they can fly into buildings, I get that they'll blow up train stations and embasys'. What I don't get is you making it sound like they shouldn't be called terrorists. Like if they were here we would be called the terrorists.......Who doesn't get it?
No, you clearly don't get it. Because none of the things you just said are actually true.
Why don't you all explain this to me then. I would love to hear how the Taliban, Al Qaida, and Osama Bin Ladin are not actual terorists.
The latter two are. The first is a fascist theocracy. And you cannot use them interchangeably. OBL plotted 9/11. Not the Taliban. The Taliban doesn't train women and kids to blow themselves up, that's more a Palestinian thing. The Taliban is busy making sure women don't do a godamn thing other than serve their husbands like slaves. The embassies and train stations... pretty sure that's Saudi Arabia.
But I totally understand that it's a lot easier and less demanding to just lump all brown Muslim people into one big "terrorist" bag and treat them all the same.
Which is why our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been such clusterfucks from day one... you/the USG doesn't know or care about the Islamic world. What you just said is like an Afghani saying every American is an abortion clinic-bombing Dubya worshipping Christian fundamentalist. When the fact is there are dozens of Christian sects here, 50 state, hundreds of political persuasions, etc. Not that you care. Like I said, easier to just assume they're all the same terrorist.
I'm open to this. I'm going to start research on the Taliban. I should have used Al Qaida instead. You're not going to defend them........are you?
No. I won't defend the Taliban either... they're a sick bunch of fucks. And while they don't train terrorists themselves (too busy trying to keep the country locked down), they do allow terrorist groups like Al-Quaeda to train there. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan, but we bungled the job by dropping it for Iraq and now we've made a mess of it.
However, the Taliban and Al-quada are very different groups, with different agendas and tactics. And these are important things to know when you're trying to combat something as amorphous as terrorism. You cannot treat all these groups and countries the same... this "one solution fits all" approach to the Islamic world has been a disaster for the US and its credibility. Now, we are stretched too thin too deal with a REAL threat like Iran or North Korea, because we thought Iraq would be a breeze because of our complete ignorance of and indifference to the realities on the ground in the Muslim world.
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They don't have a choice. There is profit to be made, and if they won't join the global capitalist economy, we will make them. I know tradition and values and history are good and all, but nothing should ever get in the way of good business.
Funny....you mentioned the capitalist system....if I remember correctly they weren't too interested in joining up with the worker's paradise system either.
Probably because they realize that in either one, you still have to go to a shitty job to work for peanuts
WE may know that culture is not equal to cash... but try telling that to the westerners that spent decades trying to destroy and exploit latin america and africa and asia in the name of progress.
Maybe we need to remove "Money talks, bullshit walks" from the language???
This is how and where we fail. We make the assumption that they want to participate in the current global economy. What do we really know what they really want?
For all we know, what they want is to carve out a peaceful life, tending herds of goats on the same land as their ancestors, 2000 years ago... living by the same religious constraints of 2000 years ago. unlike us, they may value their religious values greater than their want for consumerism.
As Tybird has stated, the change has to come from THEM... internally. Any external influence may be seen as the destruction of their culture.
...
I admit, i don't know all that much about the Afghani people and their mindset. I do not understand the effects of their culture and religion enough to make the assumption that their values are the same as ours. I can only hope that our former President Bush possesses a greater insight to what the Afghanis really want than I do. But, from what has come to pass... I am falling more and more towards the side that he doesn't. Our leaders are out of touch of OUR wants and needs... how do they know what the wants and needs of a people on the other side of the planet... living is a culture that may as well be from another planet?
Hail, Hail!!!
I would hope that the people who are over there making a difference and our policy makers knows that we can't and shouldn't force the afghan people into become like the west. Their culture and religion should be respected. We aren't at war with the afghan people, we are fighting a small minority of radical people who want to control the region, and if left unchecked, poses a threat to the world.
Iraq is advanced compared to Afghanistan, and so it should be expected that it will take a long time to get them independent enough to govern themselves, something that is a new concept in a country that has been lawless for ever. I was reading an article today in the paper about how the biggest problem with security there is the corruption and desertion with in the Afghan army and police force. Most of their personnel don't get paid nearly enough, and in some cases, the taliban pays more. It took years after Germany was occupied for it to become relatively stable, die hard members of the Reich were still killing elected officials and soldiers for a couple years after the war, and that was an advance and developed nation. Afghanistan is on the other end of the spectrum in terms of development, I know its apples and oranges, but it took Germany a couple years to become stable, its going to take a lot more then that before Afghanistan to become self sustaining.
I don't think we are disagreeing on anything, the facts are there. However I just can't see how pulling out tomorrow will solve the issue. All it will do is send the people of Afghanistan back to a worse fate then what they already have. Untold amount of civilians have died since we occupied the country 8 years ago, how many do you think would die for supporting the west if we leave and the Taliban move in? South Vietnam saw a large untold amount of people who where killed, jailed, or tortured after we pulled out in the 70's. Wasn't there a large exodus of people from South Vietnam in the wake of us leaving? The Afghan people won't have that luxury to leave if we do.
The World and expecially the Afghan people don't have a choice here, seeing this through is our only reponsible option, the past is said and done.
The Golden Rule, right? Do unto others... and all that jazz.
I try to place myself in their shoes...
If... in a parallel Universe... a Muslim military power decided that The United States needed to be saved from our decadent lifestyle and culture... and become an Islamic Theocracy to save our souls. Invaded and occupied our country... not knowing our culture, language, customs and religion. Installed a Theocratic government of their design. I would be out there trying to eject them from my homeland. I'd be blowing up their convoys and sending their soldiers back home in coffins. I would also go after treasonous Americans who collaborated with these foriegners. And i would be willing to die for this. They would call me a 'Terrorist' because I wasn't donning a uniform... but, Americans would call me a 'Patriot'.
We should be the ones to decide whether or not to convert to Islam, not them.
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't get this! If they came here and tried to change us? They did come here.....they flew a couple jumbo jets into our twin towers , remember? Killing 3,000 americans. Isn't THAT why we are THERE? I'm sorry Cosmo but you make it sound like we are there because we do not like there way of life. Are people forgetting that they attacked us?
Come on, you know better then that. They have made no secret about a new islamic order, thats their agenda, I think they even have web pages and articles all over the internet saying so. If they had a large, advanced military, they sure as hell would be in our back yard.
No one is trying to force them to change cultures or religion, you know better then that to assume we are, you're smarter then that.
Maybe so, but the kind of reaction you guys are talking about can also be classified as "mission drift".
The past is over, lets learn from it and move on.
The problem is... the people over there are our military leaders. Afghanistan and Iraq are now political problems, not military problems. No one can solve political issues with military solutions.
As for our military presence in post War Germany... the world court tried and executed the Nazi leadership for their participation in crimes against humanity. And the German people were like minded in their religion and Western Culture.
In Viet Nam... they tried and improsoned or executed Vietnamese collaborators who were considerd traitors... just as we would probably try and execute traitors over here, if the shoe was on the other foot. Yes, people fled... mostly for financial or religious (Christians) reasons along with those people who helpd Americans occupy their country. The North Vietnamese did not slaughter the South Vietnamese foot soldiers. They killed their commanders and leaders. There was not a civil war that ensued.
Iraq is different. Saddam Hussein ruled with a brutal iron fist to keep the Kurds and Shi'ites under his (Sunni) control. The hatred was there, simmering. The hatred is STILL there. Nothing we can do to prevent that. Maybe, a Civil War is just part of Iraq's future... it's just that Saddam Hussein (and now, us) kept the thing in check. These hostilities are about 1500 years old. They wil not go away just because we want them to. Those deep seated, religious based differences cannot be killed... they have to die... over a long, long period of time.
Hail, Hail!!!
That is another failure... failure to assume responsibility for our past actions. Trying to deny the actions of the past is shrugging responsibility. If that is so, shouldn't we 'just get over' the attacks of September 11, 2001? The answer is, NO.
The actions of the past create the conditions of the present.
Hail, Hail!!!
You just don't get it. I'm not surprized.
Hail, Hail!!!
No Ass. I get IT, I don't get YOU!!
There's your true self, shining through...
Proof of who you are and where you are coming from. A small person.
Hail, Hail!!!
I say, throw all those motherfuckers in a prison exercise yard... erase all of the goddamn borders in the Middle East... and don't let them out until they draw up the fucking boders, themselves. And NO... Saudi Arabia and Iran... you cannot omit Israel. And NO... Israel, you cannot omit the Palestinians.
That way, those fuckers have no one else to blame except themselves for the map.
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't believe we really make that assumption. I think we simply don't give a fuck what they want. We know what we want, and what we think is best for them, and that's all that matters.
No, you clearly don't get it. Because none of the things you just said are actually true.
:shock:
The Taliban is not solely responsible for all that stuff. I don't think you really have any idea who or what the Taliban is.
Why don't you all explain this to me then. I would love to hear how the Taliban, Al Qaida, and Osama Bin Ladin are not actual terorists.
The latter two are. The first is a fascist theocracy. And you cannot use them interchangeably. OBL plotted 9/11. Not the Taliban. The Taliban doesn't train women and kids to blow themselves up, that's more a Palestinian thing. The Taliban is busy making sure women don't do a godamn thing other than serve their husbands like slaves. The embassies and train stations... pretty sure that's Saudi Arabia.
But I totally understand that it's a lot easier and less demanding to just lump all brown Muslim people into one big "terrorist" bag and treat them all the same.
Which is why our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been such clusterfucks from day one... you/the USG doesn't know or care about the Islamic world. What you just said is like an Afghani saying every American is an abortion clinic-bombing Dubya worshipping Christian fundamentalist. When the fact is there are dozens of Christian sects here, 50 state, hundreds of political persuasions, etc. Not that you care. Like I said, easier to just assume they're all the same terrorist.
No. I won't defend the Taliban either... they're a sick bunch of fucks. And while they don't train terrorists themselves (too busy trying to keep the country locked down), they do allow terrorist groups like Al-Quaeda to train there. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan, but we bungled the job by dropping it for Iraq and now we've made a mess of it.
However, the Taliban and Al-quada are very different groups, with different agendas and tactics. And these are important things to know when you're trying to combat something as amorphous as terrorism. You cannot treat all these groups and countries the same... this "one solution fits all" approach to the Islamic world has been a disaster for the US and its credibility. Now, we are stretched too thin too deal with a REAL threat like Iran or North Korea, because we thought Iraq would be a breeze because of our complete ignorance of and indifference to the realities on the ground in the Muslim world.