Everyone here justifying this is all about "Me Me Me", "I pre-ordered" "Im a super fan". You are not entitled to someone's hard work before they release it because you pre-ordered. That is not reality of the rational, its the thought process of a spoiled child.
If you want to talk about 'reality', the reality is that the view you are putting forward is completely null and void becuase it won't stop people from downloading. Surely it's better to make the best of a bad situation?
What is this "best" you speak of? I believe it's "best" not to contribute to a system that allows people to take instantly from an artist that has put a lot of hard work into their art/product. I believe if you respect someones art/product you should respect their wishes on how you obtain said product. If everyone defending this hated pearl jam and their music it would make sense. I wouldn't condone that, but it would be somewhat rational. But everyone here is a pretty big fan of Pearl Jam, how do these people square taking from them. It's like taking from a friend that has plenty, still doesn't make it right.
Everyone here justifying this is all about "Me Me Me", "I pre-ordered" "Im a super fan". You are not entitled to someone's hard work before they release it because you pre-ordered. That is not reality of the rational, its the thought process of a spoiled child.
If you want to talk about 'reality', the reality is that the view you are putting forward is completely null and void becuase it won't stop people from downloading. Surely it's better to make the best of a bad situation?
What is this "best" you speak of? I believe it's "best" not to contribute to a system that allows people to take instantly from an artist that has put a lot of hard work into their art/product. I believe if you respect someones art/product you should respect their wishes on how you obtain said product. If everyone defending this hated pearl jam and their music it would make sense. I wouldn't condone that, but it would be somewhat rational. But everyone here is a pretty big fan of Pearl Jam, how do these people square taking from them. It's like taking from a friend that has plenty, still doesn't make it right.
Are you the type that wouldn't even burn the album for your best friend if he/she wanted it?
What is this "best" you speak of? I believe it's "best" not to contribute to a system that allows people to take instantly from an artist that has put a lot of hard work into their art/product. I believe if you respect someones art/product you should respect their wishes on how you obtain said product. If everyone defending this hated pearl jam and their music it would make sense. I wouldn't condone that, but it would be somewhat rational. But everyone here is a pretty big fan of Pearl Jam, how do these people square taking from them. It's like taking from a friend that has plenty, still doesn't make it right.
Look, I have no personal issue with you here, at all. That said, your argument is completely based around a moral issue. When people are able to help themselves to something for free without being caught, they will do it. Not everyone, but a lot of people. It's exactly the same as being in your car late at night and putting your foot down past the speed limit so you can get home quicker - it's against the law, but the chances of getting caught are slim, so we make a moral judgement and act accordingly.
The 'best' I speak of, is using the music as a promotional tool - one which sells concert tickets and other merchandise that people can't get for free, and helps the band and their people survive - clearly it works for them.
What is this "best" you speak of? I believe it's "best" not to contribute to a system that allows people to take instantly from an artist that has put a lot of hard work into their art/product. I believe if you respect someones art/product you should respect their wishes on how you obtain said product. If everyone defending this hated pearl jam and their music it would make sense. I wouldn't condone that, but it would be somewhat rational. But everyone here is a pretty big fan of Pearl Jam, how do these people square taking from them. It's like taking from a friend that has plenty, still doesn't make it right.
Look, I have no personal issue with you here, at all. That said, your argument is completely based around a moral issue. When people are able to help themselves to something for free without being caught, they will do it. Not everyone, but a lot of people. It's exactly the same as being in your car late at night and putting your foot down past the speed limit so you can get home quicker - it's against the law, but the chances of getting caught are slim, so we make a moral judgement and act accordingly.
The 'best' I speak of, is using the music as a promotional tool - one which sells concert tickets and other merchandise that people can't get for free, and helps the band and their people survive - clearly it works for them.
Or the free publicity. All this talk over Blueprint 3 leaking is just a big commercial for Jay-Z saying he has a new album coming out and people are loving it.
SolarWorld, you should check out Trent Reznor's advice to younger bands, this is a guy who knows what he's talking about:
"Forget thinking you are going to make any real money from record sales. Make your record cheaply (but great) and GIVE IT AWAY. As an artist you want as many people as possible to hear your work. Word of mouth is the only true marketing that matters.
To clarify:
Parter with a TopSpin or similar or build your own website, but what you NEED to do is this - give your music away as high-quality DRM-free MP3s. Collect people’s email info in exchange (which means having the infrastructure to do so) and start building your database of potential customers. Then, offer a variety of premium packages for sale and make them limited editions / scarce goods. Base the price and amount available on what you think you can sell. Make the packages special - make them by hand, sign them, make them unique, make them something YOU would want to have as a fan. Make a premium download available that includes high-resolution versions (for sale at a reasonable price) and include the download as something immediately available with any physical purchase. Sell T-shirts. Sell buttons, posters… whatever.
Don’t have a TopSpin as a partner? Use Amazon for your transactions and fulfillment. [www.amazon.com]
Use TuneCore to get your music everywhere. [www.tunecore.com]
Have a realistic idea of what you can expect to make from these and budget your recording appropriately.
The point is this: music IS free whether you want to believe that or not. Every piece of music you can think of is available free right now a click away. This is a fact - it sucks as the musician BUT THAT’S THE WAY IT IS (for now). So… have the public get what they want FROM YOU instead of a torrent site and garner good will in the process (plus build your database).
The Beastie Boys’ site offers everything you could possibly want in the formats you would want it in - available right from them, right now. The prices they are charging are more than you should be charging - they are established and you are not. Think this through.
The database you are amassing should not be abused, but used to inform people that are interested in what you do when you have something going on - like a few shows, or a tour, or a new record, or a webcast, etc.
Have your MySpace page, but get a site outside MySpace - it’s dying and reads as cheap / generic. Remove all Flash from your website. Remove all stupid intros and load-times. MAKE IT SIMPLE TO NAVIGATE AND EASY TO FIND AND HEAR MUSIC (but don’t autoplay). Constantly update your site with content - pictures, blogs, whatever. Give people a reason to return to your site all the time. Put up a bulletin board and start a community. Engage your fans (with caution!) Make cheap videos. Film yourself talking. Play shows. Make interesting things. Get a Twitter account. Be interesting. Be real. Submit your music to blogs that may be interested. NEVER CHASE TRENDS. Utilize the multitude of tools available to you for very little cost of any - Flickr / YouTube / Vimeo / SoundCloud / Twitter etc.
If you don’t know anything about new media or how people communicate these days, none of this will work. The role of an independent musician these days requires a mastery of first hand use of these tools. If you don’t get it - find someone who does to do this for you. If you are waiting around for the phone to ring or that A & R guy to show up at your gig - good luck, you’re going to be waiting a while."
What is this "best" you speak of? I believe it's "best" not to contribute to a system that allows people to take instantly from an artist that has put a lot of hard work into their art/product. I believe if you respect someones art/product you should respect their wishes on how you obtain said product. If everyone defending this hated pearl jam and their music it would make sense. I wouldn't condone that, but it would be somewhat rational. But everyone here is a pretty big fan of Pearl Jam, how do these people square taking from them. It's like taking from a friend that has plenty, still doesn't make it right.
Look, I have no personal issue with you here, at all. That said, your argument is completely based around a moral issue. When people are able to help themselves to something for free without being caught, they will do it. Not everyone, but a lot of people. It's exactly the same as being in your car late at night and putting your foot down past the speed limit so you can get home quicker - it's against the law, but the chances of getting caught are slim, so we make a moral judgement and act accordingly.
The 'best' I speak of, is using the music as a promotional tool - one which sells concert tickets and other merchandise that people can't get for free, and helps the band and their people survive - clearly it works for them.
I get your point, sorta, I know people are going to steal no matter what. I just dont get how a fan can call themselves a fan and steal from an artist.
However, my argument would be that if you don't know a band or are not a fan and you download their music, you might like that album and come to respect the band and then you might buy the next album, go to a concert, buy a t-shirt or whatever. File sharing is still exposure to fans that bands need, even if the money generated by it is a byproduct. For example, friends have given me copies of bands I never knew and through that illicit copy I've gone out and bought more of their stuff or gone to see them live.
Bands have many ways to allow people to hear their music online. My Space, Facebook and bands web pages are just a couple examples. Your argument is flawed because of this. Bands don't want their hard work stolen to get popular. Your one example of being given a piece of music cannot be your only justification for stealing all your music. Please tell me the last time you went to look for some illicit music and "browsed" for something new to listen to. People dont come to torrent sites and others to browse for music, they already know what they are looking for.
I agree about MySpace etc but..... you seem to have read between the lines there that I "steal all my music", whilst I'm certainly on the other side of that particular fence.
I don't 'steal' music, here's why:
1. When I was younger I worked at a record store and I spunked all of my hard earnt cash on so much music that I haven't even had a chance to listen to a lot of it yet. I've spent the last three years trying to get through it (and realising most of it is rubbish!)
2. I believe that most people only do it becasue they want their iTunes to look full. Most kids nowadays have about 10000 tunes but have probably only heard of half the bands. I just don't care enough to do it and I thankfully have the expendible income to buy what few albums I want without needing to steal.
I do steal music, here's my only exception:
1. Having moved around a fair bit I often find that I've lost CDs which might be at my parents, in my cellar, attic, Denmark, whatever. They will turn up later, but if I wanna listen to an album I know I've already bought I may go and rip it, I've already bought it once I'm not gonna pay again just to end up with two copies.
My arguments don't really apply to myself, I was talking about people who are into that shit. However, if I apply the argument to myself and we go back to the dark ages...
Back in 1992 a friend gave me a copy of an album called 'Ten', you might have heard of it. I sometimes wish he hadn't because I have spent so very much money on that particular band. I did buy the most expensive version of the Ten reissue but that is the only legal copy I've ever had.
You wanna call Ed and tell him I owe him the cost of a cassette tape or shall I?
The Beastie Boys’ site offers everything you could possibly want in the formats you would want it in - available right from them, right now. The prices they are charging are more than you should be charging - they are established and you are not. Think this through.
No where in that statement by Trent does it say he condones stealing people's music. If an artist wants to give it away for free that is their choice. How do you make the jump from "new bands should give away music" to "im going to steal Pearl Jam's album because..."
He even seems to agree with established bands *gasp* selling their music.
I get your point, sorta, I know people are going to steal no matter what. I just dont get how a fan can call themselves a fan and steal from an artist.
Well people 'steal' for a variety of reasons. Someone might be so poor that they had to make a choice between downloading a band's new album and buying a ticket to see them live. Now you can always go back and buy the album at a later date, but the gig is a one off, especially if the band doesn't tour near you very often. You are still a fan of the band, you are still supporting them.
What is this "best" you speak of? I believe it's "best" not to contribute to a system that allows people to take instantly from an artist that has put a lot of hard work into their art/product. I believe if you respect someones art/product you should respect their wishes on how you obtain said product. If everyone defending this hated pearl jam and their music it would make sense. I wouldn't condone that, but it would be somewhat rational. But everyone here is a pretty big fan of Pearl Jam, how do these people square taking from them. It's like taking from a friend that has plenty, still doesn't make it right.
Look, I have no personal issue with you here, at all. That said, your argument is completely based around a moral issue. When people are able to help themselves to something for free without being caught, they will do it. Not everyone, but a lot of people. It's exactly the same as being in your car late at night and putting your foot down past the speed limit so you can get home quicker - it's against the law, but the chances of getting caught are slim, so we make a moral judgement and act accordingly.
The 'best' I speak of, is using the music as a promotional tool - one which sells concert tickets and other merchandise that people can't get for free, and helps the band and their people survive - clearly it works for them.
I get your point, sorta, I know people are going to steal no matter what. I just dont get how a fan can call themselves a fan and steal from an artist.
I can call myself a fan, because I do not steal from the band. Maybe I get my return on my investment quicker than what you think I should...but I do not steal from the band.
The Beastie Boys’ site offers everything you could possibly want in the formats you would want it in - available right from them, right now. The prices they are charging are more than you should be charging - they are established and you are not. Think this through.
No where in that statement by Trent does it say he condones stealing people's music. If an artist wants to give it away for free that is their choice. How do you make the jump from "new bands should give away music" to "im going to steal Pearl Jam's album because..."
He even seems to agree with established bands *gasp* selling their music.
He's saying you should be realistic - he's already stated quite clearly that you need to give people a reason to want to buy from you when they could go elsewhere. You really need to stop seeing it as a moral thing, because not everyone has your morals.
Personally I don't see it as me stealing, I see it as me trying before I buy. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't listen to it, and the band has lost NOTHING. Sure I could wait, but I see little point if it leaks. If I download from a rapidshare link, then buy it from a shop a couple of weeks later, I have stolen nothing from the band.
I get your point, sorta, I know people are going to steal no matter what. I just dont get how a fan can call themselves a fan and steal from an artist.
Well people 'steal' for a variety of reasons. Someone might be so poor that they had to make a choice between downloading a band's new album and buying a ticket to see them live. Now you can always go back and buy the album at a later date, but the gig is a one off, especially if the band doesn't tour near you very often. You are still a fan of the band, you are still supporting them.
Sure I "get" that, but it's completely selfish. If you are a fan of something I assume you respect the artist or at least the art. But then you are going to give the ol middle finger to the respect (your respect for that matter) and take something you shouldn't be. It's pure hypocrisy. There is no justification for it. It's just wrong. We are going in circles here. I just don't agree with it and that's that.
The Beastie Boys’ site offers everything you could possibly want in the formats you would want it in - available right from them, right now. The prices they are charging are more than you should be charging - they are established and you are not. Think this through.
No where in that statement by Trent does it say he condones stealing people's music. If an artist wants to give it away for free that is their choice. How do you make the jump from "new bands should give away music" to "im going to steal Pearl Jam's album because..."
He even seems to agree with established bands *gasp* selling their music.
How do you make the jump from 'listening to an album I've already purchased (numerous times), earlier than store release dates -to- STEALING?
24 years old, mid-life crisis
nowadays hits you when you're young
The Beastie Boys’ site offers everything you could possibly want in the formats you would want it in - available right from them, right now. The prices they are charging are more than you should be charging - they are established and you are not. Think this through.
No where in that statement by Trent does it say he condones stealing people's music. If an artist wants to give it away for free that is their choice. How do you make the jump from "new bands should give away music" to "im going to steal Pearl Jam's album because..."
He even seems to agree with established bands *gasp* selling their music.
He's saying you should be realistic - he's already stated quite clearly that you need to give people a reason to want to buy from you when they could go elsewhere. You really need to stop seeing it as a moral thing, because not everyone has your morals.
Personally I don't see it as me stealing, I see it as me trying before I buy. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't listen to it, and the band has lost NOTHING. Sure I could wait, but I see little point if it leaks. If I download from a rapidshare link, then buy it from a shop a couple of weeks later, I have stolen nothing from the band.
Im not asking people to have my morals, Im asking people the respect the bands wishes. If you call yourself a fan I think their should be some level of respect there. If you respect people you shouldn't take from them. It's pretty simple.
The Beastie Boys’ site offers everything you could possibly want in the formats you would want it in - available right from them, right now. The prices they are charging are more than you should be charging - they are established and you are not. Think this through.
No where in that statement by Trent does it say he condones stealing people's music. If an artist wants to give it away for free that is their choice. How do you make the jump from "new bands should give away music" to "im going to steal Pearl Jam's album because..."
He even seems to agree with established bands *gasp* selling their music.
How do you make the jump from 'listening to an album I've already purchased (numerous times), earlier than store release dates -to- STEALING?
You are taking something from the band before they want you to have it. This argument is so flawed. If I go and purchase a car but they tell me I have to wait. Do I then think it's ok to steal one off the showroom floor? JUST WAIT. Why cant you wait? Why cant you respect the band's wishes? WHY? It seems to come down to one thing. Selfishness.
Sure I "get" that, but it's completely selfish. If you are a fan of something I assume you respect the artist or at least the art. But then you are going to give the ol middle finger to the respect (your respect for that matter) and take something you shouldn't be. It's pure hypocrisy. There is no justification for it. It's just wrong. We are going in circles here. I just don't agree with it and that's that.
Well then, I think you either need to find a bit of objectivity, or maybe turn a blind eye to these debates, rather than arguing the finer detail, because it keeps coming back to a moral issue of respect to you - which is not objective. What Trent Reznor, and myself for that matter, are doing, is living in the real world. Trent managed to make millions from physical sales of The Slip - an album that to this day, is still available for free on NIN's site. So at the end of the day, if the band makes the money some way, the picture isn't quite as bleak as you paint it.
Where again does the band say this? Didn't Stone even mention not caring too much about it and being shocked that it wasn't leaked in July?
If you can source me a statement by the band and curtis management than says they are OK with obtaining their music before the release date and downloading it as many times as one likes I'll concede.
No where in that statement by Trent does it say he condones stealing people's music. If an artist wants to give it away for free that is their choice. How do you make the jump from "new bands should give away music" to "im going to steal Pearl Jam's album because..."
He even seems to agree with established bands *gasp* selling their music.
How do you make the jump from 'listening to an album I've already purchased (numerous times), earlier than store release dates -to- STEALING?
You are taking something from the band before they want you to have it. This argument is so flawed. If I go and purchase a car but they tell me I have to wait. Do I then think it's ok to steal one off the showroom floor? JUST WAIT. Why cant you wait? Why cant you respect the band's wishes? WHY? It seems to come down to one thing. Selfishness.
If you don't realize that example completely misrepresents this situation, I don't think I can have a dialogue with you anymore. Cookoo.
24 years old, mid-life crisis
nowadays hits you when you're young
Where again does the band say this? Didn't Stone even mention not caring too much about it and being shocked that it wasn't leaked in July?
If you can source me a statement by the band and curtis management than says they are OK with obtaining their music before the release date and downloading it as many times as one likes I'll concede.
You find me one showing them saying that it is not okay...and I'll concede as well.
Im not asking people to have my morals, Im asking people the respect the bands wishes. If you call yourself a fan I think their should be some level of respect there. If you respect people you shouldn't take from them. It's pretty simple.
I've never spoken to the band members personally, but I'm betting they are just as realistic about this situation as Reznor is - why else would they put so much effort into their merchandise? Plus didn't Ed steal a record from a store when he was younger? I swear I read that somewhere......
Sure I "get" that, but it's completely selfish. If you are a fan of something I assume you respect the artist or at least the art. But then you are going to give the ol middle finger to the respect (your respect for that matter) and take something you shouldn't be. It's pure hypocrisy. There is no justification for it. It's just wrong. We are going in circles here. I just don't agree with it and that's that.
Well then, I think you either need to find a bit of objectivity, or maybe turn a blind eye to these debates, rather than arguing the finer detail, because it keeps coming back to a moral issue of respect to you - which is not objective. What Trent Reznor, and myself for that matter, are doing, is living in the real world. Trent managed to make millions from physical sales of The Slip - an album that to this day, is still available for free on NIN's site. So at the end of the day, if the band makes the money some way, the picture isn't quite as bleak as you paint it.
This isnt about money out of Pearl Jam's pocket. It's about mutual respect. The members of this band are pretty respectful to their fans, we should respect how they want to release and distribute THEIR music.
Where again does the band say this? Didn't Stone even mention not caring too much about it and being shocked that it wasn't leaked in July?
If you can source me a statement by the band and curtis management than says they are OK with obtaining their music before the release date and downloading it as many times as one likes I'll concede.
You find me one showing them saying that it is not okay...and I'll concede as well.
10. Please respect an artist's copyright. Linking to or otherwise promoting stolen art is prohibited. If an artist's work is leaked online, don't post it here and please be careful when posting other people's images in posts.
So...don't post links here. We got that. No serious poster is dumb enough to do that.
Not sure if you've been around since Yield or not, but when an album leaks...we get to talk about it. It was off limits the first couple records, but they don't go around deleting threads talking about how awesome "Just Breathe" is
This isnt about money out of Pearl Jam's pocket. It's about mutual respect. The members of this band are pretty respectful to their fans, we should respect how they want to release and distribute THEIR music.
And yet we're back to the moral story.....for all you know, they might have wanted to have it out there earlier, but they have the constraints of a record label etc. Personally speaking, they might not care at all - you don't know any better than I do.
Comments
What is this "best" you speak of? I believe it's "best" not to contribute to a system that allows people to take instantly from an artist that has put a lot of hard work into their art/product. I believe if you respect someones art/product you should respect their wishes on how you obtain said product. If everyone defending this hated pearl jam and their music it would make sense. I wouldn't condone that, but it would be somewhat rational. But everyone here is a pretty big fan of Pearl Jam, how do these people square taking from them. It's like taking from a friend that has plenty, still doesn't make it right.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Are you the type that wouldn't even burn the album for your best friend if he/she wanted it?
Look, I have no personal issue with you here, at all. That said, your argument is completely based around a moral issue. When people are able to help themselves to something for free without being caught, they will do it. Not everyone, but a lot of people. It's exactly the same as being in your car late at night and putting your foot down past the speed limit so you can get home quicker - it's against the law, but the chances of getting caught are slim, so we make a moral judgement and act accordingly.
The 'best' I speak of, is using the music as a promotional tool - one which sells concert tickets and other merchandise that people can't get for free, and helps the band and their people survive - clearly it works for them.
You tell your friend to get off his lazy ass and get a job so he can purchase the album!
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Or the free publicity. All this talk over Blueprint 3 leaking is just a big commercial for Jay-Z saying he has a new album coming out and people are loving it.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
"Forget thinking you are going to make any real money from record sales. Make your record cheaply (but great) and GIVE IT AWAY. As an artist you want as many people as possible to hear your work. Word of mouth is the only true marketing that matters.
To clarify:
Parter with a TopSpin or similar or build your own website, but what you NEED to do is this - give your music away as high-quality DRM-free MP3s. Collect people’s email info in exchange (which means having the infrastructure to do so) and start building your database of potential customers. Then, offer a variety of premium packages for sale and make them limited editions / scarce goods. Base the price and amount available on what you think you can sell. Make the packages special - make them by hand, sign them, make them unique, make them something YOU would want to have as a fan. Make a premium download available that includes high-resolution versions (for sale at a reasonable price) and include the download as something immediately available with any physical purchase. Sell T-shirts. Sell buttons, posters… whatever.
Don’t have a TopSpin as a partner? Use Amazon for your transactions and fulfillment. [www.amazon.com]
Use TuneCore to get your music everywhere. [www.tunecore.com]
Have a realistic idea of what you can expect to make from these and budget your recording appropriately.
The point is this: music IS free whether you want to believe that or not. Every piece of music you can think of is available free right now a click away. This is a fact - it sucks as the musician BUT THAT’S THE WAY IT IS (for now). So… have the public get what they want FROM YOU instead of a torrent site and garner good will in the process (plus build your database).
The Beastie Boys’ site offers everything you could possibly want in the formats you would want it in - available right from them, right now. The prices they are charging are more than you should be charging - they are established and you are not. Think this through.
The database you are amassing should not be abused, but used to inform people that are interested in what you do when you have something going on - like a few shows, or a tour, or a new record, or a webcast, etc.
Have your MySpace page, but get a site outside MySpace - it’s dying and reads as cheap / generic. Remove all Flash from your website. Remove all stupid intros and load-times. MAKE IT SIMPLE TO NAVIGATE AND EASY TO FIND AND HEAR MUSIC (but don’t autoplay). Constantly update your site with content - pictures, blogs, whatever. Give people a reason to return to your site all the time. Put up a bulletin board and start a community. Engage your fans (with caution!) Make cheap videos. Film yourself talking. Play shows. Make interesting things. Get a Twitter account. Be interesting. Be real. Submit your music to blogs that may be interested. NEVER CHASE TRENDS. Utilize the multitude of tools available to you for very little cost of any - Flickr / YouTube / Vimeo / SoundCloud / Twitter etc.
If you don’t know anything about new media or how people communicate these days, none of this will work. The role of an independent musician these days requires a mastery of first hand use of these tools. If you don’t get it - find someone who does to do this for you. If you are waiting around for the phone to ring or that A & R guy to show up at your gig - good luck, you’re going to be waiting a while."
No I am not. But I wouldn't say burn off Pearl Jam's discography for someone either.
I get your point, sorta, I know people are going to steal no matter what. I just dont get how a fan can call themselves a fan and steal from an artist.
I agree about MySpace etc but..... you seem to have read between the lines there that I "steal all my music", whilst I'm certainly on the other side of that particular fence.
I don't 'steal' music, here's why:
1. When I was younger I worked at a record store and I spunked all of my hard earnt cash on so much music that I haven't even had a chance to listen to a lot of it yet. I've spent the last three years trying to get through it (and realising most of it is rubbish!)
2. I believe that most people only do it becasue they want their iTunes to look full. Most kids nowadays have about 10000 tunes but have probably only heard of half the bands. I just don't care enough to do it and I thankfully have the expendible income to buy what few albums I want without needing to steal.
I do steal music, here's my only exception:
1. Having moved around a fair bit I often find that I've lost CDs which might be at my parents, in my cellar, attic, Denmark, whatever. They will turn up later, but if I wanna listen to an album I know I've already bought I may go and rip it, I've already bought it once I'm not gonna pay again just to end up with two copies.
My arguments don't really apply to myself, I was talking about people who are into that shit. However, if I apply the argument to myself and we go back to the dark ages...
Back in 1992 a friend gave me a copy of an album called 'Ten', you might have heard of it. I sometimes wish he hadn't because I have spent so very much money on that particular band. I did buy the most expensive version of the Ten reissue but that is the only legal copy I've ever had.
You wanna call Ed and tell him I owe him the cost of a cassette tape or shall I?
No where in that statement by Trent does it say he condones stealing people's music. If an artist wants to give it away for free that is their choice. How do you make the jump from "new bands should give away music" to "im going to steal Pearl Jam's album because..."
He even seems to agree with established bands *gasp* selling their music.
Well people 'steal' for a variety of reasons. Someone might be so poor that they had to make a choice between downloading a band's new album and buying a ticket to see them live. Now you can always go back and buy the album at a later date, but the gig is a one off, especially if the band doesn't tour near you very often. You are still a fan of the band, you are still supporting them.
I can call myself a fan, because I do not steal from the band. Maybe I get my return on my investment quicker than what you think I should...but I do not steal from the band.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
He's saying you should be realistic - he's already stated quite clearly that you need to give people a reason to want to buy from you when they could go elsewhere. You really need to stop seeing it as a moral thing, because not everyone has your morals.
Personally I don't see it as me stealing, I see it as me trying before I buy. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't listen to it, and the band has lost NOTHING. Sure I could wait, but I see little point if it leaks. If I download from a rapidshare link, then buy it from a shop a couple of weeks later, I have stolen nothing from the band.
Sure I "get" that, but it's completely selfish. If you are a fan of something I assume you respect the artist or at least the art. But then you are going to give the ol middle finger to the respect (your respect for that matter) and take something you shouldn't be. It's pure hypocrisy. There is no justification for it. It's just wrong. We are going in circles here. I just don't agree with it and that's that.
How do you make the jump from 'listening to an album I've already purchased (numerous times), earlier than store release dates -to- STEALING?
nowadays hits you when you're young
Im not asking people to have my morals, Im asking people the respect the bands wishes. If you call yourself a fan I think their should be some level of respect there. If you respect people you shouldn't take from them. It's pretty simple.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
You are taking something from the band before they want you to have it. This argument is so flawed. If I go and purchase a car but they tell me I have to wait. Do I then think it's ok to steal one off the showroom floor? JUST WAIT. Why cant you wait? Why cant you respect the band's wishes? WHY? It seems to come down to one thing. Selfishness.
Well then, I think you either need to find a bit of objectivity, or maybe turn a blind eye to these debates, rather than arguing the finer detail, because it keeps coming back to a moral issue of respect to you - which is not objective. What Trent Reznor, and myself for that matter, are doing, is living in the real world. Trent managed to make millions from physical sales of The Slip - an album that to this day, is still available for free on NIN's site. So at the end of the day, if the band makes the money some way, the picture isn't quite as bleak as you paint it.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
If you can source me a statement by the band and curtis management than says they are OK with obtaining their music before the release date and downloading it as many times as one likes I'll concede.
If you don't realize that example completely misrepresents this situation, I don't think I can have a dialogue with you anymore. Cookoo.
nowadays hits you when you're young
You find me one showing them saying that it is not okay...and I'll concede as well.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
I've never spoken to the band members personally, but I'm betting they are just as realistic about this situation as Reznor is - why else would they put so much effort into their merchandise? Plus didn't Ed steal a record from a store when he was younger? I swear I read that somewhere......
This isnt about money out of Pearl Jam's pocket. It's about mutual respect. The members of this band are pretty respectful to their fans, we should respect how they want to release and distribute THEIR music.
10. Please respect an artist's copyright. Linking to or otherwise promoting stolen art is prohibited. If an artist's work is leaked online, don't post it here and please be careful when posting other people's images in posts.
Not sure if you've been around since Yield or not, but when an album leaks...we get to talk about it. It was off limits the first couple records, but they don't go around deleting threads talking about how awesome "Just Breathe" is
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
And yet we're back to the moral story.....for all you know, they might have wanted to have it out there earlier, but they have the constraints of a record label etc. Personally speaking, they might not care at all - you don't know any better than I do.