What's with all the animal abuse?

dunkman

weenie wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

weenie wrote:

But I would like you to consider this......A brilliant physicist (Einstein) once said that the only truly intelligent people are those who realize they don't know very much.....

i love that quote. says so much, especially coming from such a brilliant man! and isn't that the thing, eh? those true geniuses....just SO inquisitive, want to learn, figure things out...and are dogged in their pursuit. truly amazing minds...

and weenie.....why get hung up on the labels? i think tybird suggested the term the 'food web'....and i think THAt truly illustrates how the world more than likely 'works'....so let em have the labels of superior, blah, blah.....however, the inter-connectedness and balance....that's what it's really about. right?

keep on fighting the good fight...:)



btw - ever see the flick contact?
not that greatest of films by any stretch, but it was truly interesting...and i loved the whole line about 'what a waste of space'.....really said so much, touching uopn all your ideas presented here. it all really gets ya thinking, and i agree....

Thanks decides2!
And yes, Contact is one of my favorite all-time movies. I have it on VHS actually! I have always been a huge sci-fi buff, a fan of the better writers like Asimov who was truly a visionary. If I remember correctly, the movie is dedicated to Carl Sagan....another brilliant man.

And yes, you are correct, and so is Ty, it really IS about the interconnectedness. I just get frustrated with those who can't open their minds to the fact that the possibilities really are infinite - just like outer space, and inner space for that matter!

Thanks for your words of wisdom decides2

you're a sci-fi fan and you have movies on VHS!!!! :shock:

cincybearcat

weenie wrote:

g under p wrote:

Even the Circus appears abuse the animals...... Circus Accused of Abusing Elephants

Peace

I absolutely HATE circuses..... :evil:

I certainly understand your position. I'd like to add a comment about the value of the circus...zoos...etc. Of course, abuse of animals in the process should not happen and should not be tolerated.

But it is those circuses, those zoos, those aquariums that allow children to get "close" to animals. In the case of a circus, it can help create a love of animals that lasts a lifetime. In the case of zoos and aquariums it is much deeper. Not only do they help create the love of animals that effects how kids view and treat animals their whole lives, but they also provide education to help children better truly understand animals and the issues that surround many animals n the wild.

And maybe it is best to separate out the circus from zoos...but zoos have animal shows too, but are generally more about showing off the natural ability of the animals. A circus could do that too, maybe we just need a different kind of circus.

decides2dream

i think circuses reinforce the idea to all that animals are here merely to entertain and serve us...along with being food on our plate. i think zoos are far better examples of truly teaching us ALL about animals, their place in the world, their importance, etc. even zoos tho, it IS a precarious balance.....b/c while i appreciate they take on these animals for study, for learning, and also to protect species....they are also horribly confining a wild animal, and basiclly messing with their natural instincts. that said, i am a supporter of zoos and aquariums overall b/c i think they do more good, even given the things i dislike about them....but circus animals, imo, is just wrong.



weenie...i hear ya, i do. i am not nearly as dedicated, obviously, as you are...but i do truly admire people like you who follow their minds so closely in how they live their lives.

weenie

cincybearcat wrote:

weenie wrote:

g under p wrote:

Even the Circus appears abuse the animals...... Circus Accused of Abusing Elephants

Peace

I absolutely HATE circuses..... :evil:

I certainly understand your position. I'd like to add a comment about the value of the circus...zoos...etc. Of course, abuse of animals in the process should not happen and should not be tolerated.

But it is those circuses, those zoos, those aquariums that allow children to get "close" to animals. In the case of a circus, it can help create a love of animals that lasts a lifetime. In the case of zoos and aquariums it is much deeper. Not only do they help create the love of animals that effects how kids view and treat animals their whole lives, but they also provide education to help children better truly understand animals and the issues that surround many animals n the wild.

And maybe it is best to separate out the circus from zoos...but zoos have animal shows too, but are generally more about showing off the natural ability of the animals. A circus could do that too, maybe we just need a different kind of circus.

I absolutely LOVE the new aquariums that have the wall sized viewing areas allowing folks to see the entire scenario of how all the life forms interact, and I agree with you - they are super for kids. I don't know if all the new aquariums have the "touching" areas like Atlanta, but those are great too as long as the monitor is diligent about the creatures getting a break. I also agree on the zoo concept - but not all zoos treat the animals well. Let's face it, one day zoos will be one of the few places left on earth for some creatures like gorillas and giant apes, and many of the lions and tigers who are dwindling in numbers-particularly the white ones. Not many kids would have the benefit of up close observation if it weren't for the zoos. But circuses are in existence nowadays to serve their botom lines for the most part, which means the care and treatment of the animals is less than ideal and often abusive. I'd be happy if they did away with circuses all together. But I do agree with you that kids deserve the chance to "interact" with sea and wildlife. Let's hope the trend continues for "creature conscious" zoo and aquarium environments.

weenie

decides2dream wrote:

i think circuses reinforce the idea to all that animals are here merely to entertain and serve us...along with being food on our plate. i think zoos are far better examples of truly teaching us ALL about animals, their place in the world, their importance, etc. even zoos tho, it IS a precarious balance.....b/c while i appreciate they take on these animals for study, for learning, and also to protect species....they are also horribly confining a wild animal, and basiclly messing with their natural instincts. that said, i am a supporter of zoos and aquariums overall b/c i think they do more good, even given the things i dislike about them....but circus animals, imo, is just wrong.



weenie...i hear ya, i do. i am not nearly as dedicated, obviously, as you are...but i do truly admire people like you who follow their minds so closely in how they live their lives.

You're good people decides2.... Thanks

decides2dream

weenie wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

i think circuses reinforce the idea to all that animals are here merely to entertain and serve us...along with being food on our plate. i think zoos are far better examples of truly teaching us ALL about animals, their place in the world, their importance, etc. even zoos tho, it IS a precarious balance.....b/c while i appreciate they take on these animals for study, for learning, and also to protect species....they are also horribly confining a wild animal, and basiclly messing with their natural instincts. that said, i am a supporter of zoos and aquariums overall b/c i think they do more good, even given the things i dislike about them....but circus animals, imo, is just wrong.



weenie...i hear ya, i do. i am not nearly as dedicated, obviously, as you are...but i do truly admire people like you who follow their minds so closely in how they live their lives.

You're good people decides2.... Thanks

well i am a meat-eater and wear leather...so do be careful with your praise there.


and in regards to circuses, it Is possible to have circuses, just without performing animals. i haven't been, but isn't cirque de solei sans animals? i think so - and pretty popular too. there might be others as well. we don't have to entirely do away with the circus, merely circus animals, b/c yes....i do believe all they perpetuate is this idea that animals are on this planet purely for our 'use'...and that is not a good message imo.

cincybearcat

decides2dream wrote:

weenie wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

i think circuses reinforce the idea to all that animals are here merely to entertain and serve us...along with being food on our plate. i think zoos are far better examples of truly teaching us ALL about animals, their place in the world, their importance, etc. even zoos tho, it IS a precarious balance.....b/c while i appreciate they take on these animals for study, for learning, and also to protect species....they are also horribly confining a wild animal, and basiclly messing with their natural instincts. that said, i am a supporter of zoos and aquariums overall b/c i think they do more good, even given the things i dislike about them....but circus animals, imo, is just wrong.



weenie...i hear ya, i do. i am not nearly as dedicated, obviously, as you are...but i do truly admire people like you who follow their minds so closely in how they live their lives.

You're good people decides2.... Thanks

well i am a meat-eater and wear leather...so do be careful with your praise there.


and in regards to circuses, it Is possible to have circuses, just without performing animals. i haven't been, but isn't cirque de solei sans animals? i think so - and pretty popular too. there might be others as well. we don't have to entirely do away with the circus, merely circus animals, b/c yes....i do believe all they perpetuate is this idea that animals are on this planet purely for our 'use'...and that is not a good message imo.

Does Cirque de Soleil prove that other humans are only on this planet for our use?

tybird

cincybearcat wrote:

Does Cirque de Soleil prove that other humans are only on this planet for our use?

No, it just proves how cruel humans can be to one another......think of the trauma that a Cirque de Soleil audience must endure. :twisted:

Pepe Silvia

weenie wrote:

g under p wrote:

Even the Circus appears abuse the animals...... Circus Accused of Abusing Elephants

Peace

I absolutely HATE circuses..... :evil:

circuses and rodeos can be very cruel towards their animals

Pepe Silvia

I heart Scout Niblett wrote:

weenie wrote:

g under p wrote:

Even the Circus appears abuse the animals...... Circus Accused of Abusing Elephants

Peace

I absolutely HATE circuses..... :evil:

circuses and rodeos can be very cruel towards their animals

and we can't forget huntingdon labs and how 6 or so people who ran the stop huntingdon labs animal cruelty website were sentenced to an aggregate of 24 years in prison for onspiracy to commit interstate stalking and three counts of interstate stalking via the Internet

decides2dream

cincybearcat wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

and in regards to circuses, it Is possible to have circuses, just without performing animals. i haven't been, but isn't cirque de solei sans animals? i think so - and pretty popular too. there might be others as well. we don't have to entirely do away with the circus, merely circus animals, b/c yes....i do believe all they perpetuate is this idea that animals are on this planet purely for our 'use'...and that is not a good message imo.

Does Cirque de Soleil prove that other humans are only on this planet for our use?

humans have choice....animals don't.

i fail to see what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. that is all. add in that said animals are kept against their will, solely for entertainment purposes, and yes i think it is wrong. zoos have some purpose and benefit to animals, circuses do not. a circuses sole purpose is to entertain and make $$$. i don't have a problem with that, but i do if it means forcing an animal to perform, to live and travel in very confined spaces, etc. this is merely my opinion on the topic.

and i know that we keep animals agains their will for myraid of reasons, but to do so for entertainment, and entertainment alone...imo is just not right.


i also think bullfighting is absolutely horrendous, though i know many people in spain and elsewhere point to it's proud cultural heritage and all. all i see is killing for entertainment.


and no, i am not comparing bullfighting and circuses....merely expanding on the different things being discussed.

cincybearcat

decides2dream wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

and in regards to circuses, it Is possible to have circuses, just without performing animals. i haven't been, but isn't cirque de solei sans animals? i think so - and pretty popular too. there might be others as well. we don't have to entirely do away with the circus, merely circus animals, b/c yes....i do believe all they perpetuate is this idea that animals are on this planet purely for our 'use'...and that is not a good message imo.

Does Cirque de Soleil prove that other humans are only on this planet for our use?

humans have choice....animals don't.

i fail to see what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. that is all. add in that said animals are kept against their will, solely for entertainment purposes, and yes i think it is wrong. zoos have some purpose and benefit to animals, circuses do not. a circuses sole purpose is to entertain and make $$$. i don't have a problem with that, but i do if it means forcing an animal to perform, to live and travel in very confined spaces, etc. this is merely my opinion on the topic.

and i know that we keep animals agains their will for myraid of reasons, but to do so for entertainment, and entertainment alone...imo is just not right.


i also think bullfighting is absolutely horrendous, though i know many people in spain and elsewhere point to it's proud cultural heritage and all. all i see is killing for entertainment.


and no, i am not comparing bullfighting and circuses....merely expanding on the different things being discussed.

Do you have a pet?

tybird

I heart Scout Niblett wrote:

and we can't forget huntingdon labs and how 6 or so people who ran the stop huntingdon labs animal cruelty website were sentenced to an aggregate of 24 years in prison for onspiracy to commit interstate stalking and three counts of interstate stalking via the Internet

If you do the crime, you should do the time....no different than what the anti-abortion crowd pulls.

decides2dream

cincybearcat wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Does Cirque de Soleil prove that other humans are only on this planet for our use?

humans have choice....animals don't.

i fail to see what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. that is all. add in that said animals are kept against their will, solely for entertainment purposes, and yes i think it is wrong. zoos have some purpose and benefit to animals, circuses do not. a circuses sole purpose is to entertain and make $$$. i don't have a problem with that, but i do if it means forcing an animal to perform, to live and travel in very confined spaces, etc. this is merely my opinion on the topic.

and i know that we keep animals agains their will for myraid of reasons, but to do so for entertainment, and entertainment alone...imo is just not right.


i also think bullfighting is absolutely horrendous, though i know many people in spain and elsewhere point to it's proud cultural heritage and all. all i see is killing for entertainment.


and no, i am not comparing bullfighting and circuses....merely expanding on the different things being discussed.

Do you have a pet?

yes.
several.
not even in the same ballpark.
pets are domesticated animals....lions and tigers and bears, oh my! are not.
and i hardly keep them for my entertainment, if anything.....they use me. i am currently at work, while they lounge around the house, in either a/c or heat......and we cater to their every need. it's a relationship, and it also is not abusive. i already stated we keep many animals against their will for many different reasons....but comparing circus animals to domesticated pets, just off imo.


you think circuses with animals are good, cool.....i don't, for the reasons i state.

i still have yet to see identified what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. caring for a pet, indeed doe...as you learn to show responsibility, empathy and caring.....and hopefully try to understand your pet's needs and desires. watching an elephant carry people around, walk in circles, tigers jumping thru rings of fire and etc....just demonstrates that we can force them to do things as we wish.

cincybearcat

decides2dream wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Do you have a pet?

yes.
several.
not even in the same ballpark.
pets are domesticated animals....lions and tigers and bears, oh my! are not.
and i hardly keep them for my entertainment, if anything.....they use me. i am currently at work, while they lounge around the house, in either a/c or heat......and we cater to their every need. it's a relationship, and it also is not abusive. i already stated we keep many animals against their will for many different reasons....but comparing circus animals to domesticated pets, just off imo.


you think circuses with animals are good, cool.....i don't, for the reasons i state.

i still have yet to see identified what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. caring for a pet, indeed doe...as you learn to show responsibility, empathy and caring.....and hopefully try to understand your pet's needs and desires. watching an elephant carry people around, walk in circles, tigers jumping thru rings of fire and etc....just demonstrates that we can force them to do things as we wish.

I guess it depends on the treatment of the animals in the circus.

I've not said outright that I think circuses are good...I think they can help kids learn to love animals, but with some of the tricks I can see where it might also be hurting them by teaching them the wrong things (ie "don't try this at home").

decides2dream

cincybearcat wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Do you have a pet?

yes.
several.
not even in the same ballpark.
pets are domesticated animals....lions and tigers and bears, oh my! are not.
and i hardly keep them for my entertainment, if anything.....they use me. i am currently at work, while they lounge around the house, in either a/c or heat......and we cater to their every need. it's a relationship, and it also is not abusive. i already stated we keep many animals against their will for many different reasons....but comparing circus animals to domesticated pets, just off imo.


you think circuses with animals are good, cool.....i don't, for the reasons i state.

i still have yet to see identified what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. caring for a pet, indeed doe...as you learn to show responsibility, empathy and caring.....and hopefully try to understand your pet's needs and desires. watching an elephant carry people around, walk in circles, tigers jumping thru rings of fire and etc....just demonstrates that we can force them to do things as we wish.

I guess it depends on the treatment of the animals in the circus.

I've not said outright that I think circuses are good...I think they can help kids learn to love animals, but with some of the tricks I can see where it might also be hurting them by teaching them the wrong things (ie "don't try this at home").

i know you haven't outright...but it does lead me to believe to some degree, you think they're good/ok. and hey, i am all for questions, and i've asked a few myself. like specifically, what about a circus teaches anything positive about animals? don't you think there are far BETTER ways the teach children to love and respect animals? i think that is key. making animals, wild animals, live captive lives...to come out and perform....just seems cruel and not exactly teaching anything at all, least of which something positive and good. i think zoos are a far BETTER place for that. having a pet - especially adopting one, can help with that, watching educational programs, setting a positive example, etc.


imo, regardless of treatment (tho of course i ant them treated well if they have to be there) i think circuses with performing animals are wrong. they serve no 'purpose' at all, outside of entertainment, and force a wild aninmal to live a completely alien and unnatural life, solely for the benefit of entertaining us. i do understand we have a precarious relationship with animals and there are fine lines and choices to be made....i just personally think circus animals are a wrong choice.


hey, i loved the circus as a child, went a few times....but as an adult, i see what they are and i think they are wrong. i think we have PLENTY of other, better ways to entertain ourselves and our children, set better examples of care and stewardship...and definitely far better ways to foster a love for animals.

CJMST3K

decides2dream wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Do you have a pet?

yes.
several.
not even in the same ballpark.
pets are domesticated animals....lions and tigers and bears, oh my! are not.

I have a parrot. I've had him for... about 14 years or so (had to think about it). Is he a pet according to your standards?

decides2dream

CJMST3K wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Do you have a pet?

yes.
several.
not even in the same ballpark.
pets are domesticated animals....lions and tigers and bears, oh my! are not.

I have a parrot. I've had him for... about 14 years or so (had to think about it). Is he a pet according to your standards?

isn't he?
i would think so, but only you can tell me if that is the case.
i do not believe pets and circus animals are at all the same, outside of all being animals.
i'm unsure where you are going with this?


is it b/c parrots are not considered domesticated?
(and funny you mention that...b/c i DID think of fish and birds, other 'exotic' pets' some may have.....and again, it goes in that 'fine line' category....but i do not see it in any ways supportive of circus animals)

CJMST3K

decides2dream wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

yes.
several.
not even in the same ballpark.
pets are domesticated animals....lions and tigers and bears, oh my! are not.

I have a parrot. I've had him for... about 14 years or so (had to think about it). Is he a pet according to your standards?

isn't he?
i would think so, but only you can tell me if that is the case.
i do not believe pets and circus animals are at all the same, outside of all being animals.
i'm unsure where you are going with this?


is it b/c parrots are not considered domesticated?
(and funny you mention that...b/c i DID think of fish and birds, other 'exotic' pets' some may have.....and again, it goes in that 'fine line' category....but i do not see it in any ways supportive of circus animals)

Just to confirm, lions, tigers and bears and other animals living in the wild are ok to hunt, etc?

decides2dream

CJMST3K wrote:

Just to confirm, lions, tigers and bears and other animals living in the wild are ok to hunt, etc?

personally, i am ok with hunting for food...i am not ok with hunting for entertainment/sport. i believe most lions, and tigers and bears are endangered....but if they weren't and people actually ate them...i'd say, yes.


animals (which includes us) have hunted, killed and eaten other animals always, it is a part of nature. yes, we are omnivores so we don't HAVE to eat them, but we are designed to eat both meat and plant life. i am a-ok with that. i think my views on animals for food have already been covered well in this thread.


if you'd like to make a point, that would be nice.....i really didn't think this thread was about 20 questions, for me. and if you'd at all like to point out any of my hypocritical stances, i already addressed them earlier as well. i've readily admitted em.