What's with all the animal abuse?

tybird

decides2dream wrote:

and yes...i readily admit.....i look at it as an 'ideal'...and i certainly don't practice all that i believe. i would love to be able to afford to eat all free-range meat and such. i don't b/c it simply is too pricey for me. and yes, it is my choice. i am choosing my life comforts over another animals. i am not against eating other animals, i do believe it's natural (tho i agree we can certainly live w/o animal fats) but our current system of food is about profit and not health...and certainly not about any respect for life. so yea, i do feel guilt about it, yet still do so. :oops: however, sure...i do try in other ways....cruelty-free products and the like, and supporting animal rights organizations, etc. i'm definitely imperfect in general...and most definitely here. however, i absolutely do see the 'point' of choosing carefully, and yes...trying as much as possible....to be cruelty-free. i wish there was way we could go back, change our factory farming ways.....get rid of em, b/c then free-range meat/eggs/dairy would be more affordable for all. and i know supporting current free-range farms is a start, but sadly, overall...outside my regular market budget. just figured i'd say that lest one call my a hypocrite. i readily admit i am.

The factory farms are supposed to keep food costs down, but that is probably very debatable. I suspect that they probably do more for generating profit than passing the saving on down to the consumers.

decides2dream

tybird wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

and yes...i readily admit.....i look at it as an 'ideal'...and i certainly don't practice all that i believe. i would love to be able to afford to eat all free-range meat and such. i don't b/c it simply is too pricey for me. and yes, it is my choice. i am choosing my life comforts over another animals. i am not against eating other animals, i do believe it's natural (tho i agree we can certainly live w/o animal fats) but our current system of food is about profit and not health...and certainly not about any respect for life. so yea, i do feel guilt about it, yet still do so. :oops: however, sure...i do try in other ways....cruelty-free products and the like, and supporting animal rights organizations, etc. i'm definitely imperfect in general...and most definitely here. however, i absolutely do see the 'point' of choosing carefully, and yes...trying as much as possible....to be cruelty-free. i wish there was way we could go back, change our factory farming ways.....get rid of em, b/c then free-range meat/eggs/dairy would be more affordable for all. and i know supporting current free-range farms is a start, but sadly, overall...outside my regular market budget. just figured i'd say that lest one call my a hypocrite. i readily admit i am.

The factory farms are supposed to keep food costs down, but that is probably very debatable. I suspect that they probably do more for generating profit than passing the saving on down to the consumers.

oh believe me, i know the initial rationale behind factory farming...i've actually read a great deal about it. as i said, i may not be a militant animal rights activist, i am very much interested in it, involve myself when i can and believe it is an important issue....not simply about factory farming, but animal rights in general. i DO think we could strike a FAR better balance between our animal food desires and uses.....and being humane, caring, cruelty-free.

i personally think the only reason nowadays it is cheaper than free-range, is simply b/c it is more prevelant. i also think the way of life for the 'farmers' of factory farming...not nearly as rewarding/enjoyable, or whatever you'd call it.....of free-range farming. honestly, it seems maddening....and sure, thus my hypocrisy.....b/c if i had to do it, ya know i'd turn back to being a vegetarian. yikes. but, i don't have to....and yes, i enjoy eating meat and wearing leather. i just wish we could all do so without the existence of factory farms. obviously we CAN...we just have to go back to it. it would be healthier for all involved to boot!

tybird

decides2dream wrote:

tybird wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

and yes...i readily admit.....i look at it as an 'ideal'...and i certainly don't practice all that i believe. i would love to be able to afford to eat all free-range meat and such. i don't b/c it simply is too pricey for me. and yes, it is my choice. i am choosing my life comforts over another animals. i am not against eating other animals, i do believe it's natural (tho i agree we can certainly live w/o animal fats) but our current system of food is about profit and not health...and certainly not about any respect for life. so yea, i do feel guilt about it, yet still do so. :oops: however, sure...i do try in other ways....cruelty-free products and the like, and supporting animal rights organizations, etc. i'm definitely imperfect in general...and most definitely here. however, i absolutely do see the 'point' of choosing carefully, and yes...trying as much as possible....to be cruelty-free. i wish there was way we could go back, change our factory farming ways.....get rid of em, b/c then free-range meat/eggs/dairy would be more affordable for all. and i know supporting current free-range farms is a start, but sadly, overall...outside my regular market budget. just figured i'd say that lest one call my a hypocrite. i readily admit i am.

The factory farms are supposed to keep food costs down, but that is probably very debatable. I suspect that they probably do more for generating profit than passing the saving on down to the consumers.

oh believe me, i know the initial rationale behind factory farming...i've actually read a great deal about it. as i said, i may not be a militant animal rights activist, i am very much interested in it, involve myself when i can and believe it is an important issue....not simply about factory farming, but animal rights in general. i DO think we could strike a FAR better balance between our animal food desires and uses.....and being humane, caring, cruelty-free.

i personally think the only reason nowadays it is cheaper than free-range, is simply b/c it is more prevelant. i also think the way of life for the 'farmers' of factory farming...not nearly as rewarding/enjoyable, or whatever you'd call it.....of free-range farming. honestly, it seems maddening....and sure, thus my hypocrisy.....b/c if i had to do it, ya know i'd turn back to being a vegetarian. yikes. but, i don't have to....and yes, i enjoy eating meat and wearing leather. i just wish we could all do so without the existence of factory farms. obviously we CAN...we just have to go back to it. it would be healthier for all involved to boot!

One problem for the small farmer...free-range farmer....is the market itself. We, Americans believe that we have a God-given right to cheap stuff....whether it be farm raised products or factory goods....most of us don't care that our neighbors, the farmer or the factory worker, are being squeezed to provide the rest of us with cheap goods.....or that companies send these functions off-shore to continue to provide us with "Wal-mart pricing."

decides2dream

tybird wrote:

One problem for the small farmer...free-range farmer....is the market itself. We, Americans believe that we have a God-given right to cheap stuff....whether it be farm raised products or factory goods....most of us don't care that our neighbors, the farmer or the factory worker, are being squeezed to provide the rest of us with cheap goods.....or that companies send these functions off-shore to continue to provide us with "Wal-mart pricing."

absolutely.
as i said, i am a perfect - bad - example. i would LOVe to buy all free-range and organic foods...but the price simply is prohibitive for me. i think it is for a great many people. and i realize too, given that we have embraced factory-farming, that it is extremely difficult to turn back to more sustainable, healthy, cruelty-free ways....and we absolutely are so 'expecting' cheap prices. i just think, there has got to be a way to find some balance in there?

i know you hate PETA ...but i have to say, they are - at least at first - years ago,the reason i got so interested in learning more about animal rights issues, opened my eyes to a great many things, and from that i had the impetus to do a lot of reading/research on my own. i think as more and more people get informed, care, the better. even for our own health...so much has come to light with this sub-standard practices....that hopefully, in time, things will change for the better...


and sure, i do like to dream.......;)

tybird

decides2dream wrote:

tybird wrote:

One problem for the small farmer...free-range farmer....is the market itself. We, Americans believe that we have a God-given right to cheap stuff....whether it be farm raised products or factory goods....most of us don't care that our neighbors, the farmer or the factory worker, are being squeezed to provide the rest of us with cheap goods.....or that companies send these functions off-shore to continue to provide us with "Wal-mart pricing."

absolutely.
as i said, i am a perfect - bad - example. i would LOVe to buy all free-range and organic foods...but the price simply is prohibitive for me. i think it is for a great many people. and i realize too, given that we have embraced factory-farming, that it is extremely difficult to turn back to more sustainable, healthy, cruelty-free ways....and we absolutely are so 'expecting' cheap prices. i just think, there has got to be a way to find some balance in there?

i know you hate PETA ...but i have to say, they are - at least at first - years ago,the reason i got so interested in learning more about animal rights issues, opened my eyes to a great many things, and from that i had the impetus to do a lot of reading/research on my own. i think as more and more people get informed, care, the better. even for our own health...so much has come to light with this sub-standard practices....that hopefully, in time, things will change for the better...


and sure, i do like to dream.......;)

We all like to dream, Sugar....

CJMST3K

jlew24asu wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

like I said, animals are lower on the food chain. we win, they lose.

It's this type of statement that makes me understand why human slavery existed in the U.S. for so long.

:roll:

hi, we are talking about ANIMALS. animals are not humans. they are a food source. did we eat slaves?

I'm talking about how people in control of any situation can say "we win, they lose" and consider themselves the winner of an argument.

With slavery, "we win, they lose" was accurate for a long time, but I wouldn't have used that argument to protect slavery. With women's rights, "we win, they lose" was accurate for a long time too.

Just because a humans have the moste intelligence on earth doesn't give us the right to kill with a clear conscience. We were created as omnivores, so it's purely a choice.

weenie

jlew24asu wrote:

weenie wrote:

He's just goading us now. Forget about trying to get a rational, philosophical response. :?

just to clarify, you want a rational philosophical response to the what if scenario of aliens invading earth and eating us. do I have that right?

Have you ever heard of hypothesis for the sake of debate? Did you ever take debate, or a class on reasoning in college? I think I already know the answer to that question.

AND

You can say with absolute 100% certainty that there are no beings on any other planet, in any other galaxy? If so, you better get in touch with NASA and SETI, along with the astrophysicists at Harvard, MIT and Cambridge. THEY'RE going to want to have a conversation with YOU!

dcfaithful

CJMST3K wrote:

I'm talking about how people in control of any situation can say "we win, they lose" and consider themselves the winner of an argument.

With slavery, "we win, they lose" was accurate for a long time, but I wouldn't have used that argument to protect slavery. With women's rights, "we win, they lose" was accurate for a long time too.

Just because a humans have the moste intelligence on earth doesn't give us the right to kill with a clear conscience. We were created as omnivores, so it's purely a choice.

Love your post.

If we didn't have the intelligence to get as far as we did with our means of gathering & processing our food, humans being superior to animals wouldn't even be a discussion.

jlew24asu

weenie wrote:

Have you ever heard of hypothesis for the sake of debate? Did you ever take debate, or a class on reasoning in college? I think I already know the answer to that question.

you're right. I wasn't on the high school debate team :roll: but I am smart enough to know that intelligent debate can be had without the hypothetical situation of aliens coming to earth and eating me.

weenie wrote:

You can say with absolute 100% certainty that there are no beings on any other planet, in any other galaxy? If so, you better get in touch with NASA and SETI, along with the astrophysicists at Harvard, MIT and Cambridge. THEY'RE going to want to have a conversation with YOU!

I am a huge fan of astronomy. I am a firm believer of life outside of our own planet. but I'm not concerned that they will come take over the earth.

dcfaithful

dunkman wrote:

anyway, we have incisors, we are designed to eat meat... our digestive juices are designed to break down meat... we need certain minerals/irons/vitamins/etc from meats.

But, you CAN still be a completely healthy being if you choose not to eat meat, in fact you may even be a little healthier. You can also get all the nutrients you need as well. We were designed to eat meat AND plants, we're omnivours. We can survive without meat...

dunkman

dcfaithful wrote:

dunkman wrote:

anyway, we have incisors, we are designed to eat meat... our digestive juices are designed to break down meat... we need certain minerals/irons/vitamins/etc from meats.

But, you CAN still be a completely healthy being if you choose not to eat meat, in fact you may even be a little healthier. You can also get all the nutrients you need as well. We were designed to eat meat AND plants, we're omnivours. We can survive without meat...

of course we can survive without meat... just saying that our teeth are designed for eating meat.

i'm not sure about the the "in fact you may..." bit of your post though... "in fact"... well that sounds like a fact to me... and then you say "you may".. which sounds like its a kinda maybe.. a get-out clause

we are designed to eat both food groups... not just the plants.. and not just the meat.. so to say we can survive without meat is true.. but it also makes me think that we might be 'lacking' something from the meat part of that dual diet... as you have also agreed that we are "designed to eat meat AND plants".. so i can only presume that our part(s) of the body which have been designed to eat meat do in fact need that meat. (or any byproduct thereof) in order to meet our own design specification.

weenie

jlew24asu wrote:

weenie wrote:

Have you ever heard of hypothesis for the sake of debate? Did you ever take debate, or a class on reasoning in college? I think I already know the answer to that question.

you're right. I wasn't on the high school debate team :roll: but I am smart enough to know that intelligent debate can be had without the hypothetical situation of aliens coming to earth and eating me.

weenie wrote:

You can say with absolute 100% certainty that there are no beings on any other planet, in any other galaxy? If so, you better get in touch with NASA and SETI, along with the astrophysicists at Harvard, MIT and Cambridge. THEY'RE going to want to have a conversation with YOU!

I am a huge fan of astronomy. I am a firm believer of life outside of our own planet. but I'm not concerned that they will come take over the earth.

I never said you were concerned. Once again, this was an illustrative point which I used to follow the logic you were using regarding the "rights of the superior". I don't think there's any way I can get you to understand the point I was trying to make. Because you didn't "get it", you chose to suggest that it was a STUPID remark. It's really easy to slam something you don't understand - anybody can do it. Asking probing questions to further understand a concept? nah, it's easier to just ridicule eh? Plus, it has the extra added benefit of making YOU feel superior!

CJMST3K

dcfaithful wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

I'm talking about how people in control of any situation can say "we win, they lose" and consider themselves the winner of an argument.

With slavery, "we win, they lose" was accurate for a long time, but I wouldn't have used that argument to protect slavery. With women's rights, "we win, they lose" was accurate for a long time too.

Just because a humans have the moste intelligence on earth doesn't give us the right to kill with a clear conscience. We were created as omnivores, so it's purely a choice.

Love your post.

If we didn't have the intelligence to get as far as we did with our means of gathering & processing our food, humans being superior to animals wouldn't even be a discussion.

Correct. I believe we humans are here because of our intelligence, and frankly we probably would not have survived as well when we were early humans without killing for meat too. I also believe we humans (or at least us individually) would not be here today without rape too. I can't imagine that humans would be as heavily populated (and thriving) now if un-courted reproduction was not rampant in early-human history (and I could be wrong).

...but I'm not bringing early human history into this. I'm talking about humans now, and today. I would like to see evolution continue. Do we need to rely on what was necessary for survival 100,000+ years ago, no matter how cruel, to dictate how we behave today and tomorrow. We've become more civil to each other as humans over the last 1,000 years. Can't we apply that to animals?

jlew24asu

weenie wrote:

I never said you were concerned. Once again, this was an illustrative point which I used to follow the logic you were using regarding the "rights of the superior". I don't think there's any way I can get you to understand the point I was trying to make. Because you didn't "get it", you chose to suggest that it was a STUPID remark. It's really easy to slam something you don't understand - anybody can do it. Asking probing questions to further understand a concept? nah, it's easier to just ridicule eh? Plus, it has the extra added benefit of making YOU feel superior!

oh, I got what you were trying to imply. but it was ridiculous. "get it" ?

we are superior to animals and you wanted to prove to me that we are inferior to aliens. I mean, I think you can do better then that.

g under p

Even the Circus appears abuse the animals...... Circus Accused of Abusing Elephants

Peace

weenie

g under p wrote:

Even the Circus appears abuse the animals...... Circus Accused of Abusing Elephants

Peace

I absolutely HATE circuses..... :evil:

weenie

jlew24asu wrote:

weenie wrote:

I never said you were concerned. Once again, this was an illustrative point which I used to follow the logic you were using regarding the "rights of the superior". I don't think there's any way I can get you to understand the point I was trying to make. Because you didn't "get it", you chose to suggest that it was a STUPID remark. It's really easy to slam something you don't understand - anybody can do it. Asking probing questions to further understand a concept? nah, it's easier to just ridicule eh? Plus, it has the extra added benefit of making YOU feel superior!

oh, I got what you were trying to imply. but it was ridiculous. "get it" ?

we are superior to animals and you wanted to prove to me that we are inferior to aliens. I mean, I think you can do better then that.

Oh, so you think our human race is the most intelligent species out of all of the galaxies out there? God help us all!!! I never said anything about PROVING my statement. Because proof of it being TRUE OR UNTRUE DOES NOT YET EXIST.

Here's what I don't get about people like you. You make fun of me for positing a line of logic that follows the argument YOU'RE making which you obviously still don't get. Because YOU think it's impractical and not possible for aliens to invade the earth and be superior to humans you think it's stupid. Okay, you're entitled to your opinion, but how can you possibly think you KNOW that for a fact? Are you some fucking outer space savant? You DON'T KNOW - so how can you make such absolute statements about the impossibility of something we aren't capable of disproving?

You say you are a fan of astrophysics, are you aware that there could be millions of galaxies like our own out there? NO ONE has any idea what exists beyond the reaches of our unmanned space missions and telescopes. We simply don't know. So for you to say the possibility is "STUPID" is of itself STUPID.

I'm sure you'll find some irrelevant point to argue back with that has nothing to do with defending your original position that superiority gives the human race the right to kill lower species. At this juncture, you're just throwing out any diversion you can find to deflect attention from your own STUPID argument. But hey, I'm done. There's just so much beating with a 2' X 4' that I can administer. Feel good about yourself....I'm giving up. No more posts on this argument.

But I would like you to consider this......A brilliant physicist (Einstein) once said that the only truly intelligent people are those who realize they don't know very much..... You shouldn't be so quick to throw around adjectives like "stupid" if you can't back it up with fact.
:roll:

decides2dream

weenie wrote:

But I would like you to consider this......A brilliant physicist (Einstein) once said that the only truly intelligent people are those who realize they don't know very much.....

i love that quote. says so much, especially coming from such a brilliant man! and isn't that the thing, eh? those true geniuses....just SO inquisitive, want to learn, figure things out...and are dogged in their pursuit. truly amazing minds...

and weenie.....why get hung up on the labels? i think tybird suggested the term the 'food web'....and i think THAt truly illustrates how the world more than likely 'works'....so let em have the labels of superior, blah, blah.....however, the inter-connectedness and balance....that's what it's really about. right?

keep on fighting the good fight...:)



btw - ever see the flick contact?
not that greatest of films by any stretch, but it was truly interesting...and i loved the whole line about 'what a waste of space'.....really said so much, touching uopn all your ideas presented here. it all really gets ya thinking, and i agree....

weenie

decides2dream wrote:

weenie wrote:

But I would like you to consider this......A brilliant physicist (Einstein) once said that the only truly intelligent people are those who realize they don't know very much.....

i love that quote. says so much, especially coming from such a brilliant man! and isn't that the thing, eh? those true geniuses....just SO inquisitive, want to learn, figure things out...and are dogged in their pursuit. truly amazing minds...

and weenie.....why get hung up on the labels? i think tybird suggested the term the 'food web'....and i think THAt truly illustrates how the world more than likely 'works'....so let em have the labels of superior, blah, blah.....however, the inter-connectedness and balance....that's what it's really about. right?

keep on fighting the good fight...:)



btw - ever see the flick contact?
not that greatest of films by any stretch, but it was truly interesting...and i loved the whole line about 'what a waste of space'.....really said so much, touching uopn all your ideas presented here. it all really gets ya thinking, and i agree....

Thanks decides2!
And yes, Contact is one of my favorite all-time movies. I have it on VHS actually! I have always been a huge sci-fi buff, a fan of the better writers like Asimov who was truly a visionary. If I remember correctly, the movie is dedicated to Carl Sagan....another brilliant man.

And yes, you are correct, and so is Ty, it really IS about the interconnectedness. I just get frustrated with those who can't open their minds to the fact that the possibilities really are infinite - just like outer space, and inner space for that matter!

Thanks for your words of wisdom decides2

jlew24asu

weenie wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

weenie wrote:

I never said you were concerned. Once again, this was an illustrative point which I used to follow the logic you were using regarding the "rights of the superior". I don't think there's any way I can get you to understand the point I was trying to make. Because you didn't "get it", you chose to suggest that it was a STUPID remark. It's really easy to slam something you don't understand - anybody can do it. Asking probing questions to further understand a concept? nah, it's easier to just ridicule eh? Plus, it has the extra added benefit of making YOU feel superior!

oh, I got what you were trying to imply. but it was ridiculous. "get it" ?

we are superior to animals and you wanted to prove to me that we are inferior to aliens. I mean, I think you can do better then that.

Oh, so you think our human race is the most intelligent species out of all of the galaxies out there? God help us all!!! I never said anything about PROVING my statement. Because proof of it being TRUE OR UNTRUE DOES NOT YET EXIST.

Here's what I don't get about people like you. You make fun of me for positing a line of logic that follows the argument YOU'RE making which you obviously still don't get. Because YOU think it's impractical and not possible for aliens to invade the earth and be superior to humans you think it's stupid. Okay, you're entitled to your opinion, but how can you possibly think you KNOW that for a fact? Are you some fucking outer space savant? You DON'T KNOW - so how can you make such absolute statements about the impossibility of something we aren't capable of disproving?

You say you are a fan of astrophysics, are you aware that there could be millions of galaxies like our own out there? NO ONE has any idea what exists beyond the reaches of our unmanned space missions and telescopes. We simply don't know. So for you to say the possibility is "STUPID" is of itself STUPID.

I'm sure you'll find some irrelevant point to argue back with that has nothing to do with defending your original position that superiority gives the human race the right to kill lower species. At this juncture, you're just throwing out any diversion you can find to deflect attention from your own STUPID argument. But hey, I'm done. There's just so much beating with a 2' X 4' that I can administer. Feel good about yourself....I'm giving up. No more posts on this argument.

But I would like you to consider this......A brilliant physicist (Einstein) once said that the only truly intelligent people are those who realize they don't know very much..... You shouldn't be so quick to throw around adjectives like "stupid" if you can't back it up with fact.
:roll:

are you still defending your attempt at intelligent debate about aliens coming to earth and eating me thus proving me wrong that we are not a superior species?

and I'M the stupid one? I'm glad that was your last post on the matter. its embarrassing,.