and in regards to circuses, it Is possible to have circuses, just without performing animals. i haven't been, but isn't cirque de solei sans animals? i think so - and pretty popular too. there might be others as well. we don't have to entirely do away with the circus, merely circus animals, b/c yes....i do believe all they perpetuate is this idea that animals are on this planet purely for our 'use'...and that is not a good message imo.
Does Cirque de Soleil prove that other humans are only on this planet for our use?
humans have choice....animals don't.
i fail to see what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. that is all. add in that said animals are kept against their will, solely for entertainment purposes, and yes i think it is wrong. zoos have some purpose and benefit to animals, circuses do not. a circuses sole purpose is to entertain and make $$$. i don't have a problem with that, but i do if it means forcing an animal to perform, to live and travel in very confined spaces, etc. this is merely my opinion on the topic.
and i know that we keep animals agains their will for myraid of reasons, but to do so for entertainment, and entertainment alone...imo is just not right.
i also think bullfighting is absolutely horrendous, though i know many people in spain and elsewhere point to it's proud cultural heritage and all. all i see is killing for entertainment.
and no, i am not comparing bullfighting and circuses....merely expanding on the different things being discussed.
and in regards to circuses, it Is possible to have circuses, just without performing animals. i haven't been, but isn't cirque de solei sans animals? i think so - and pretty popular too. there might be others as well. we don't have to entirely do away with the circus, merely circus animals, b/c yes....i do believe all they perpetuate is this idea that animals are on this planet purely for our 'use'...and that is not a good message imo.
Does Cirque de Soleil prove that other humans are only on this planet for our use?
humans have choice....animals don't.
i fail to see what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. that is all. add in that said animals are kept against their will, solely for entertainment purposes, and yes i think it is wrong. zoos have some purpose and benefit to animals, circuses do not. a circuses sole purpose is to entertain and make $$$. i don't have a problem with that, but i do if it means forcing an animal to perform, to live and travel in very confined spaces, etc. this is merely my opinion on the topic.
and i know that we keep animals agains their will for myraid of reasons, but to do so for entertainment, and entertainment alone...imo is just not right.
i also think bullfighting is absolutely horrendous, though i know many people in spain and elsewhere point to it's proud cultural heritage and all. all i see is killing for entertainment.
and no, i am not comparing bullfighting and circuses....merely expanding on the different things being discussed.
and we can't forget huntingdon labs and how 6 or so people who ran the stop huntingdon labs animal cruelty website were sentenced to an aggregate of 24 years in prison for onspiracy to commit interstate stalking and three counts of interstate stalking via the Internet
If you do the crime, you should do the time....no different than what the anti-abortion crowd pulls.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Does Cirque de Soleil prove that other humans are only on this planet for our use?
humans have choice....animals don't.
i fail to see what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. that is all. add in that said animals are kept against their will, solely for entertainment purposes, and yes i think it is wrong. zoos have some purpose and benefit to animals, circuses do not. a circuses sole purpose is to entertain and make $$$. i don't have a problem with that, but i do if it means forcing an animal to perform, to live and travel in very confined spaces, etc. this is merely my opinion on the topic.
and i know that we keep animals agains their will for myraid of reasons, but to do so for entertainment, and entertainment alone...imo is just not right.
i also think bullfighting is absolutely horrendous, though i know many people in spain and elsewhere point to it's proud cultural heritage and all. all i see is killing for entertainment.
and no, i am not comparing bullfighting and circuses....merely expanding on the different things being discussed.
Do you have a pet?
yes.
several.
not even in the same ballpark.
pets are domesticated animals....lions and tigers and bears, oh my! are not.
and i hardly keep them for my entertainment, if anything.....they use me. i am currently at work, while they lounge around the house, in either a/c or heat......and we cater to their every need. it's a relationship, and it also is not abusive. i already stated we keep many animals against their will for many different reasons....but comparing circus animals to domesticated pets, just off imo.
you think circuses with animals are good, cool.....i don't, for the reasons i state.
i still have yet to see identified what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. caring for a pet, indeed doe...as you learn to show responsibility, empathy and caring.....and hopefully try to understand your pet's needs and desires. watching an elephant carry people around, walk in circles, tigers jumping thru rings of fire and etc....just demonstrates that we can force them to do things as we wish.
yes.
several.
not even in the same ballpark.
pets are domesticated animals....lions and tigers and bears, oh my! are not.
and i hardly keep them for my entertainment, if anything.....they use me. i am currently at work, while they lounge around the house, in either a/c or heat......and we cater to their every need. it's a relationship, and it also is not abusive. i already stated we keep many animals against their will for many different reasons....but comparing circus animals to domesticated pets, just off imo.
you think circuses with animals are good, cool.....i don't, for the reasons i state.
i still have yet to see identified what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. caring for a pet, indeed doe...as you learn to show responsibility, empathy and caring.....and hopefully try to understand your pet's needs and desires. watching an elephant carry people around, walk in circles, tigers jumping thru rings of fire and etc....just demonstrates that we can force them to do things as we wish.
I guess it depends on the treatment of the animals in the circus.
I've not said outright that I think circuses are good...I think they can help kids learn to love animals, but with some of the tricks I can see where it might also be hurting them by teaching them the wrong things (ie "don't try this at home").
yes.
several.
not even in the same ballpark.
pets are domesticated animals....lions and tigers and bears, oh my! are not.
and i hardly keep them for my entertainment, if anything.....they use me. i am currently at work, while they lounge around the house, in either a/c or heat......and we cater to their every need. it's a relationship, and it also is not abusive. i already stated we keep many animals against their will for many different reasons....but comparing circus animals to domesticated pets, just off imo.
you think circuses with animals are good, cool.....i don't, for the reasons i state.
i still have yet to see identified what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. caring for a pet, indeed doe...as you learn to show responsibility, empathy and caring.....and hopefully try to understand your pet's needs and desires. watching an elephant carry people around, walk in circles, tigers jumping thru rings of fire and etc....just demonstrates that we can force them to do things as we wish.
I guess it depends on the treatment of the animals in the circus.
I've not said outright that I think circuses are good...I think they can help kids learn to love animals, but with some of the tricks I can see where it might also be hurting them by teaching them the wrong things (ie "don't try this at home").
i know you haven't outright...but it does lead me to believe to some degree, you think they're good/ok. and hey, i am all for questions, and i've asked a few myself. like specifically, what about a circus teaches anything positive about animals? don't you think there are far BETTER ways the teach children to love and respect animals? i think that is key. making animals, wild animals, live captive lives...to come out and perform....just seems cruel and not exactly teaching anything at all, least of which something positive and good. i think zoos are a far BETTER place for that. having a pet - especially adopting one, can help with that, watching educational programs, setting a positive example, etc.
imo, regardless of treatment (tho of course i ant them treated well if they have to be there) i think circuses with performing animals are wrong. they serve no 'purpose' at all, outside of entertainment, and force a wild aninmal to live a completely alien and unnatural life, solely for the benefit of entertaining us. i do understand we have a precarious relationship with animals and there are fine lines and choices to be made....i just personally think circus animals are a wrong choice.
hey, i loved the circus as a child, went a few times....but as an adult, i see what they are and i think they are wrong. i think we have PLENTY of other, better ways to entertain ourselves and our children, set better examples of care and stewardship...and definitely far better ways to foster a love for animals.
yes.
several.
not even in the same ballpark.
pets are domesticated animals....lions and tigers and bears, oh my! are not.
I have a parrot. I've had him for... about 14 years or so (had to think about it). Is he a pet according to your standards?
isn't he?
i would think so, but only you can tell me if that is the case.
i do not believe pets and circus animals are at all the same, outside of all being animals.
i'm unsure where you are going with this?
is it b/c parrots are not considered domesticated?
(and funny you mention that...b/c i DID think of fish and birds, other 'exotic' pets' some may have.....and again, it goes in that 'fine line' category....but i do not see it in any ways supportive of circus animals)
yes.
several.
not even in the same ballpark.
pets are domesticated animals....lions and tigers and bears, oh my! are not.
I have a parrot. I've had him for... about 14 years or so (had to think about it). Is he a pet according to your standards?
isn't he?
i would think so, but only you can tell me if that is the case.
i do not believe pets and circus animals are at all the same, outside of all being animals.
i'm unsure where you are going with this?
is it b/c parrots are not considered domesticated?
(and funny you mention that...b/c i DID think of fish and birds, other 'exotic' pets' some may have.....and again, it goes in that 'fine line' category....but i do not see it in any ways supportive of circus animals)
Just to confirm, lions, tigers and bears and other animals living in the wild are ok to hunt, etc?
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Just to confirm, lions, tigers and bears and other animals living in the wild are ok to hunt, etc?
personally, i am ok with hunting for food...i am not ok with hunting for entertainment/sport. i believe most lions, and tigers and bears are endangered....but if they weren't and people actually ate them...i'd say, yes.
animals (which includes us) have hunted, killed and eaten other animals always, it is a part of nature. yes, we are omnivores so we don't HAVE to eat them, but we are designed to eat both meat and plant life. i am a-ok with that. i think my views on animals for food have already been covered well in this thread.
if you'd like to make a point, that would be nice.....i really didn't think this thread was about 20 questions, for me. and if you'd at all like to point out any of my hypocritical stances, i already addressed them earlier as well. i've readily admitted em.
Just to confirm, lions, tigers and bears and other animals living in the wild are ok to hunt, etc?
Where it is legal to hunt bears and lions....it's ok.....Can't think of anywhere it is legal to hunt tigers.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
i really didn't think this thread was about 20 questions, for me.
Are you bigger than a bread box? :twisted:
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Just to confirm, lions, tigers and bears and other animals living in the wild are ok to hunt, etc?
personally, i am ok with hunting for food...i am not ok with hunting for entertainment/sport. i believe most lions, and tigers and bears are endangered....but if they weren't and people actually ate them...i'd say, yes.
My parrot came from the wild. I got him from someone who got him from a "dealer" (who was smuggling them into the country) but they couldn't keep him anymore.
22 or so years ago when my bird was living in the wild, if someone shot him with an arrow and ate him, that would be ethical and ok?
If went home tonight and shot him with an arrow and ate him... would that still be ethical and ok?
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Just to confirm, lions, tigers and bears and other animals living in the wild are ok to hunt, etc?
personally, i am ok with hunting for food...i am not ok with hunting for entertainment/sport. i believe most lions, and tigers and bears are endangered....but if they weren't and people actually ate them...i'd say, yes.
My parrot came from the wild. I got him from someone who got him from a "dealer" (who was smuggling them into the country) but they couldn't keep him anymore.
22 or so years ago when my bird was living in the wild, if someone shot him with an arrow and ate him, that would be ethical and ok?
If went home tonight and shot him with an arrow and ate him... would that still be ethical and ok?
idk if parrots are allowed to be hunted, again, aren't they also endangered?
if we were at war, on opposite sides, and i shot you....that would be considered ok.
if we're not at war and i decided to shoot you just because...that would not be ok.
killing an animal in the wild for food is ok. (given the parameters of hunting seasons, not endangered, etc)
killing an animal for food that is a domestic pet is not ok.
these are laws...and so it goes.
everything is relative to it's given situation.
and what i may deem personally ok,, and what the laws may deem personally ok, also not always the same thing.
idk if parrots are allowed to be hunted, again, aren't they also endangered?
Most species worldwide are endangered and probably under some form of protective laws....how these laws apply to certain native groups is unknown to me.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
killing an animal in the wild for food is ok. (given the parameters of hunting seasons, not endangered, etc)
killing an animal for food that is a domestic pet is not ok.
That's really what I wanted to get at.
Regional laws aside, and going from your specifics above, we could be talking about the exact same animal, and "killing for food" is acceptable and "killing for food" is not acceptable based on reasons which are arbitrary to the animal.
The definition of "Domestic Pet" is: any of various animals that have been tamed and made fit for a human environment
Is it domestic because we taught it some tricks? Or gave it a name? Once the animal "trusts" us?
If we can domesticate an animal, surely we can un-domesticate one too, right?
So the term "Domestic" is based on moving it from one set environment and experiences, to another set of environment and experiences. ...so apparently the setting is the deciding factor on whether it's ok to kill it, or not to kill it (in your set of ethics). Do I have this correct?
(and the war scenario I'm going to stay away from because in war group A is hunting group B, and group B is relatively equally hunting group A, and the first to successfully kill, wins, but animals aren't hunting humans on a regular basis, so it doesn't fit with your war scenario)
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I also DESPISE rodeos. Tying rope around a bull's testicles so he bucks and broncs seems pretty childish, in addition to totally lacking in compassion. Since guys ride them, you'd think they could relate. :shock: I hate all the other barbaric "events" too. But the bull-riding really takes the cake.
Post edited by weenie on
~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
On a related topic that some here will appreciate, especially you Tybird..... I just heard on the news that Barton Springs Pool is going to be closed down for possibly 6 months so that a salamander ecosystem can be restored and saved.
Barton Springs pool is spring fed, is HUGE and is open year-round. Well apparently it has developed some leaks into an adjacent tunnel or underground cave of some kind where endangered salamanders make their homes. The city has decided to protect the little guys and are shutting down the pool to make the necessary fixes. Barton Springs Pool is not free to the public, so the city is going to lose money no matter what time of year they choose to make the repairs. I'm imagining they'll try for November through May or something like that.
But there are several retired individuals, that swim there everyday because of the supposed healing properties of the water, who will be extremely upset. But I'm happy for the little salamanders - really neat little guys - and the fact that the City is willing to do the right thing. Although, there are some pretty militant environmentalists in Austin who wouldn't let them do otherwise. So hoo-ray for the little guys!
~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
killing an animal in the wild for food is ok. (given the parameters of hunting seasons, not endangered, etc)
killing an animal for food that is a domestic pet is not ok.
That's really what I wanted to get at.
Regional laws aside, and going from your specifics above, we could be talking about the exact same animal, and "killing for food" is acceptable and "killing for food" is not acceptable based on reasons which are arbitrary to the animal.
The definition of "Domestic Pet" is: any of various animals that have been tamed and made fit for a human environment
Is it domestic because we taught it some tricks? Or gave it a name? Once the animal "trusts" us?
If we can domesticate an animal, surely we can un-domesticate one too, right?
So the term "Domestic" is based on moving it from one set environment and experiences, to another set of environment and experiences. ...so apparently the setting is the deciding factor on whether it's ok to kill it, or not to kill it (in your set of ethics). Do I have this correct?
(and the war scenario I'm going to stay away from because in war group A is hunting group B, and group B is relatively equally hunting group A, and the first to successfully kill, wins, but animals aren't hunting humans on a regular basis, so it doesn't fit with your war scenario)
obviously...i knew, eventually ...you'd choose to share your 'point'.
and you can stay away from whatever point you so choose, but the relativity of it still exists. just like, if i decide to kill you and eat you...simply b/c i want to - not ok. if we are both stranded on a frozen mountaintop, no food supply - well it just might be deemed ok.
in your scenario it doesn't matter if the animal i choose to eat would ever hunt me, no more than it matters that any other animals hunt and kill animals they can.
obviously, moral relativism exists in these discussions, lots of topics, b/c well.....life is not simply black and white. you make the choices that best suit your life, your morality, and also the laws and culture within your time and place.
an animal is considered domesticated when it grows dependent on humans for it's livelihood and care. obviously, we MADE them domestic at least most, some relationships...such as with dogs, developed from a mutually beneficial relationship. dogs would form packs around humans to eat the scraps/left over food waste....humans allowed it b/c dogs acted as early warning signals for other outside threats. other animals we just simply outright domesticated for our own choice/amusement/use. not saying that is 'right', but it is done. most domesticated animals could not adapt/survive on their own anymore. THAT is the big difference, in my mind anyway...between wild and domestic animals. point is, it IS arbitrary which animals we look towards as food, others pets, still others for service, and others completely wild...and again, this varies even now, within cultures. most americans would never think to eat dog, whereas other cultures may. same holds true for eating bugs.
again, it IS completely natural to choose animals to eat based on various criteria...and it also is completely natural to form beneficial relationships with certain animals...or even simply coexist peacefully with other animals, etc...all within the ideas of the 'food web'....and yes, animals of all kinds can and do make these distinctions as well. and even an animal one may consider a friend can become a foe, even within the same species, and so on.
so you bet.....i can choose to have a dog for a pet...and someone else in another culture can choose to have dog as a meal. same holds true for your parrot....or any animal. if i think it's ok to eat animals for food, it is not for me to decide which is acceptible or not for you. obviously, we have laws governing our actions here in this country, but they can be very different elsewhere. also, can have different rules in relation to different animals. different cultures have different rules for people, depending where you live and believe. again, relativism.
obviously, this is not what you believe, i have no problem with that, nor am i telling you are wrong or should believe or do as i.
i really didn't think this thread was about 20 questions, for me.
Are you bigger than a bread box? :twisted:
btw - thanks for always interjecting useful facts....always a learning experience whenever discussing wildlife and/or history with you, and that's always a positive.
i really didn't think this thread was about 20 questions, for me.
Are you bigger than a bread box? :twisted:
btw - thanks for always interjecting useful facts....always a learning experience whenever discussing wildlife and/or history with you, and that's always a positive.
Thank you.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
My parrot came from the wild. I got him from someone who got him from a "dealer" (who was smuggling them into the country) but they couldn't keep him anymore.
22 or so years ago when my bird was living in the wild, if someone shot him with an arrow and ate him, that would be ethical and ok?
If went home tonight and shot him with an arrow and ate him... would that still be ethical and ok?
Is this your way of inviting us all over for dinner?
just like, if i decide to kill you and eat you...simply b/c i want to - not ok. if we are both stranded on a frozen mountaintop, no food supply - well it just might be deemed ok.
I'm glad you included this. We're agreeing that it can be ok to kill people for food.
For me,if society is ok with killing animals for food, I'm all for killing people for food too. People are animals, so I don't see what the problem is with it.
(and I'd have a good advantage - tho I'm a vegetarian, I'm one hell of a shot with a 30 06 and an old 45 revolver)
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just like, if i decide to kill you and eat you...simply b/c i want to - not ok. if we are both stranded on a frozen mountaintop, no food supply - well it just might be deemed ok.
I'm glad you included this. We're agreeing that it can be ok to kill people for food.
For me,if society is ok with killing animals for food, I'm all for killing people for food too. People are animals, so I don't see what the problem is with it.
(and I'd have a good advantage - tho I'm a vegetarian, I'm one hell of a shot with a 30 06 and an old 45 revolver)
right-o...it's all moral relativism, isn't it?
and what are morals but social constructs? certainly, initially, started as ways to ensure to perpetuate the species/tribe, just like all 'laws' animals govern their own behaviors with...but it still is all relative to time/place/social constructs. each society collectively decides, based on their own arbitrary choices, what is acceptible and unacceptible....and again, while many are rooted in self/species protection, as time continues forward....many 'morals' are based merely on preferences of the times and developments.
just like, if i decide to kill you and eat you...simply b/c i want to - not ok. if we are both stranded on a frozen mountaintop, no food supply - well it just might be deemed ok.
I'm glad you included this. We're agreeing that it can be ok to kill people for food.
For me,if society is ok with killing animals for food, I'm all for killing people for food too. People are animals, so I don't see what the problem is with it.
(and I'd have a good advantage - tho I'm a vegetarian, I'm one hell of a shot with a 30 06 and an old 45 revolver)
right-o...it's all moral relativism, isn't it?
and what are morals but social constructs? certainly, initially, started as ways to ensure to perpetuate the species/tribe, just like all 'laws' animals govern their own behaviors with...but it still is all relative to time/place/social constructs. each society collectively decides, based on their own arbitrary choices, what is acceptible and unacceptible....and again, while many are rooted in self/species protection, as time continues forward....many 'morals' are based merely on preferences of the times and developments.
Correct - "morals" are all relative.
I just hope one day more people consider being less cruel to animals. They really do suffer rather needlessly.
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right-o...it's all moral relativism, isn't it?
and what are morals but social constructs? certainly, initially, started as ways to ensure to perpetuate the species/tribe, just like all 'laws' animals govern their own behaviors with...but it still is all relative to time/place/social constructs. each society collectively decides, based on their own arbitrary choices, what is acceptible and unacceptible....and again, while many are rooted in self/species protection, as time continues forward....many 'morals' are based merely on preferences of the times and developments.
Correct - "morals" are all relative.
I just hope one day more people consider being less cruel to animals. They really do suffer rather needlessly.
i 100% support that idea, even if i don't necessarily agree with ALL you may personally espouse as to how or why to do that.
i'll tell ya this tho....my dogs and cat have far better/comfortable lives than many people on this earth!
I realize that a lot of you don't realize how far the abuse goes with respect to the animal related foods that reach our tables and our bodies.
Please read below and click the link to watch several vignettes for some eye-opening facts about those eggs you enjoy.....
Thanks-
This video was taken by Mercy For Animals investigators at Ohio Fresh Eggs (formerly Buckeye Egg Farm), one of the largest egg factory farms in the country. Unfortunately, these incidents are not isolated. Animal cruelty is widespread in factory farms and slaughterhouses across the country.
~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
I just hope one day more people consider being less cruel to animals. They really do suffer rather needlessly.
...and should not be legislated or forced onto others....some exceptions do apply. :twisted:
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
I just hope one day more people consider being less cruel to animals. They really do suffer rather needlessly.
...and should not be legislated or forced onto others....some exceptions do apply. :twisted:
I think that it should only be as legislated and forced on others as it is for humans. If laws protect the human-animals, why not all animals?
Why should others be allowed to hunt the animals of their choosing, but I can't hunt the animal of my choosing (the human animal)?
Tyranny of the majority? :twisted:
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Comments
humans have choice....animals don't.
i fail to see what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. that is all. add in that said animals are kept against their will, solely for entertainment purposes, and yes i think it is wrong. zoos have some purpose and benefit to animals, circuses do not. a circuses sole purpose is to entertain and make $$$. i don't have a problem with that, but i do if it means forcing an animal to perform, to live and travel in very confined spaces, etc. this is merely my opinion on the topic.
and i know that we keep animals agains their will for myraid of reasons, but to do so for entertainment, and entertainment alone...imo is just not right.
i also think bullfighting is absolutely horrendous, though i know many people in spain and elsewhere point to it's proud cultural heritage and all. all i see is killing for entertainment.
and no, i am not comparing bullfighting and circuses....merely expanding on the different things being discussed.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Do you have a pet?
yes.
several.
not even in the same ballpark.
pets are domesticated animals....lions and tigers and bears, oh my! are not.
and i hardly keep them for my entertainment, if anything.....they use me.
you think circuses with animals are good, cool.....i don't, for the reasons i state.
i still have yet to see identified what positive message towards animals that performing circus animals provide. caring for a pet, indeed doe...as you learn to show responsibility, empathy and caring.....and hopefully try to understand your pet's needs and desires. watching an elephant carry people around, walk in circles, tigers jumping thru rings of fire and etc....just demonstrates that we can force them to do things as we wish.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I guess it depends on the treatment of the animals in the circus.
I've not said outright that I think circuses are good...I think they can help kids learn to love animals, but with some of the tricks I can see where it might also be hurting them by teaching them the wrong things (ie "don't try this at home").
i know you haven't outright...but it does lead me to believe to some degree, you think they're good/ok. and hey, i am all for questions, and i've asked a few myself. like specifically, what about a circus teaches anything positive about animals? don't you think there are far BETTER ways the teach children to love and respect animals? i think that is key. making animals, wild animals, live captive lives...to come out and perform....just seems cruel and not exactly teaching anything at all, least of which something positive and good. i think zoos are a far BETTER place for that. having a pet - especially adopting one, can help with that, watching educational programs, setting a positive example, etc.
imo, regardless of treatment (tho of course i ant them treated well if they have to be there) i think circuses with performing animals are wrong. they serve no 'purpose' at all, outside of entertainment, and force a wild aninmal to live a completely alien and unnatural life, solely for the benefit of entertaining us. i do understand we have a precarious relationship with animals and there are fine lines and choices to be made....i just personally think circus animals are a wrong choice.
hey, i loved the circus as a child, went a few times....but as an adult, i see what they are and i think they are wrong. i think we have PLENTY of other, better ways to entertain ourselves and our children, set better examples of care and stewardship...and definitely far better ways to foster a love for animals.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I have a parrot. I've had him for... about 14 years or so (had to think about it). Is he a pet according to your standards?
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isn't he?
i would think so, but only you can tell me if that is the case.
i do not believe pets and circus animals are at all the same, outside of all being animals.
i'm unsure where you are going with this?
is it b/c parrots are not considered domesticated?
(and funny you mention that...b/c i DID think of fish and birds, other 'exotic' pets' some may have.....and again, it goes in that 'fine line' category....but i do not see it in any ways supportive of circus animals)
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Just to confirm, lions, tigers and bears and other animals living in the wild are ok to hunt, etc?
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*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
personally, i am ok with hunting for food...i am not ok with hunting for entertainment/sport. i believe most lions, and tigers and bears are endangered....but if they weren't and people actually ate them...i'd say, yes.
animals (which includes us) have hunted, killed and eaten other animals always, it is a part of nature. yes, we are omnivores so we don't HAVE to eat them, but we are designed to eat both meat and plant life. i am a-ok with that. i think my views on animals for food have already been covered well in this thread.
if you'd like to make a point, that would be nice.....i really didn't think this thread was about 20 questions, for me.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
My parrot came from the wild. I got him from someone who got him from a "dealer" (who was smuggling them into the country) but they couldn't keep him anymore.
22 or so years ago when my bird was living in the wild, if someone shot him with an arrow and ate him, that would be ethical and ok?
If went home tonight and shot him with an arrow and ate him... would that still be ethical and ok?
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*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
idk if parrots are allowed to be hunted, again, aren't they also endangered?
if we were at war, on opposite sides, and i shot you....that would be considered ok.
if we're not at war and i decided to shoot you just because...that would not be ok.
killing an animal in the wild for food is ok. (given the parameters of hunting seasons, not endangered, etc)
killing an animal for food that is a domestic pet is not ok.
these are laws...and so it goes.
everything is relative to it's given situation.
and what i may deem personally ok,, and what the laws may deem personally ok, also not always the same thing.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
That's really what I wanted to get at.
Regional laws aside, and going from your specifics above, we could be talking about the exact same animal, and "killing for food" is acceptable and "killing for food" is not acceptable based on reasons which are arbitrary to the animal.
The definition of "Domestic Pet" is: any of various animals that have been tamed and made fit for a human environment
Is it domestic because we taught it some tricks? Or gave it a name? Once the animal "trusts" us?
If we can domesticate an animal, surely we can un-domesticate one too, right?
So the term "Domestic" is based on moving it from one set environment and experiences, to another set of environment and experiences. ...so apparently the setting is the deciding factor on whether it's ok to kill it, or not to kill it (in your set of ethics). Do I have this correct?
(and the war scenario I'm going to stay away from because in war group A is hunting group B, and group B is relatively equally hunting group A, and the first to successfully kill, wins, but animals aren't hunting humans on a regular basis, so it doesn't fit with your war scenario)
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Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
Barton Springs pool is spring fed, is HUGE and is open year-round. Well apparently it has developed some leaks into an adjacent tunnel or underground cave of some kind where endangered salamanders make their homes. The city has decided to protect the little guys and are shutting down the pool to make the necessary fixes. Barton Springs Pool is not free to the public, so the city is going to lose money no matter what time of year they choose to make the repairs. I'm imagining they'll try for November through May or something like that.
But there are several retired individuals, that swim there everyday because of the supposed healing properties of the water, who will be extremely upset. But I'm happy for the little salamanders - really neat little guys - and the fact that the City is willing to do the right thing.
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
obviously...i knew, eventually
and you can stay away from whatever point you so choose, but the relativity of it still exists. just like, if i decide to kill you and eat you...simply b/c i want to - not ok. if we are both stranded on a frozen mountaintop, no food supply - well it just might be deemed ok.
in your scenario it doesn't matter if the animal i choose to eat would ever hunt me, no more than it matters that any other animals hunt and kill animals they can.
obviously, moral relativism exists in these discussions, lots of topics, b/c well.....life is not simply black and white. you make the choices that best suit your life, your morality, and also the laws and culture within your time and place.
an animal is considered domesticated when it grows dependent on humans for it's livelihood and care. obviously, we MADE them domestic at least most, some relationships...such as with dogs, developed from a mutually beneficial relationship. dogs would form packs around humans to eat the scraps/left over food waste....humans allowed it b/c dogs acted as early warning signals for other outside threats. other animals we just simply outright domesticated for our own choice/amusement/use. not saying that is 'right', but it is done. most domesticated animals could not adapt/survive on their own anymore. THAT is the big difference, in my mind anyway...between wild and domestic animals. point is, it IS arbitrary which animals we look towards as food, others pets, still others for service, and others completely wild...and again, this varies even now, within cultures. most americans would never think to eat dog, whereas other cultures may. same holds true for eating bugs.
again, it IS completely natural to choose animals to eat based on various criteria...and it also is completely natural to form beneficial relationships with certain animals...or even simply coexist peacefully with other animals, etc...all within the ideas of the 'food web'....and yes, animals of all kinds can and do make these distinctions as well. and even an animal one may consider a friend can become a foe, even within the same species, and so on.
so you bet.....i can choose to have a dog for a pet...and someone else in another culture can choose to have dog as a meal. same holds true for your parrot....or any animal. if i think it's ok to eat animals for food, it is not for me to decide which is acceptible or not for you. obviously, we have laws governing our actions here in this country, but they can be very different elsewhere. also, can have different rules in relation to different animals. different cultures have different rules for people, depending where you live and believe. again, relativism.
obviously, this is not what you believe, i have no problem with that, nor am i telling you are wrong or should believe or do as i.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
btw - thanks for always interjecting useful facts....always a learning experience whenever discussing wildlife and/or history with you, and that's always a positive.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Is this your way of inviting us all over for dinner?
I'm glad you included this. We're agreeing that it can be ok to kill people for food.
For me,if society is ok with killing animals for food, I'm all for killing people for food too. People are animals, so I don't see what the problem is with it.
(and I'd have a good advantage - tho I'm a vegetarian, I'm one hell of a shot with a 30 06 and an old 45 revolver)
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right-o...it's all moral relativism, isn't it?
and what are morals but social constructs? certainly, initially, started as ways to ensure to perpetuate the species/tribe, just like all 'laws' animals govern their own behaviors with...but it still is all relative to time/place/social constructs. each society collectively decides, based on their own arbitrary choices, what is acceptible and unacceptible....and again, while many are rooted in self/species protection, as time continues forward....many 'morals' are based merely on preferences of the times and developments.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Correct - "morals" are all relative.
I just hope one day more people consider being less cruel to animals. They really do suffer rather needlessly.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
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i 100% support that idea, even if i don't necessarily agree with ALL you may personally espouse as to how or why to do that.
i'll tell ya this tho....my dogs and cat have far better/comfortable lives than many people on this earth!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Please read below and click the link to watch several vignettes for some eye-opening facts about those eggs you enjoy.....
Thanks-
This video was taken by Mercy For Animals investigators at Ohio Fresh Eggs (formerly Buckeye Egg Farm), one of the largest egg factory farms in the country. Unfortunately, these incidents are not isolated. Animal cruelty is widespread in factory farms and slaughterhouses across the country.
More egg farm investigations:
Weaver Brothers Egg Farm
Daylay Egg Farm
Wegmans Egg Farm
Esbenshade Farms
http://www.chooseveg.com/ohio-fresh-eggs.asp
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
I think that it should only be as legislated and forced on others as it is for humans. If laws protect the human-animals, why not all animals?
Why should others be allowed to hunt the animals of their choosing, but I can't hunt the animal of my choosing (the human animal)?
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10